Exit plan - keeping up pretense until then?

[Popsie]

Oh and just a questionI have related to spouses with BPD being stunted:  I find my H is also like a child in the sense that he doesn't take the initiative to do basic tasks and responsibilities. 

For example, he doesn't make sure the doors to our house are locked at night, if our faucet breaks he literally won't even call a plumber and just leaves it for months (i eventually deal but I leave it for a while to test my theory, it's like it doesn't even cross his mind), or on the weekend do the regular things that need to get done before the week (groceries, laundry, etc), not going to the dr when he has a bad rash, avoiding the dentist for years (not a money issue), or another weird one is his phone is barely working and it is critical for his job but he just complains about it every day for months and doesn't buy himself a new one even though he can afford it and the phone store is a block from his office.  I find this mind boggling.  Do other ppl have this experience or is it just particular to my H? 

I try not to get involved in the things I can avoid like the phone situation but many other things I just have to submit to being responsible for because they are a safety issue or the result of not doing them would negatively impact the kids (ie no groceries for lunches.)  It's hard to understand how he is so successful at work when this is how he operates behind the scenes.

I used to get angry and lecture but after figuring out he may have BPD I kind of assumed this might be related and just stopped getting angry and accepted these are limitations... but it sure is exhausting when you have 2 kids and a full time job.

[lostinvt]

I am often described as an "empath", "kind", "people pleaser" so I guessing I might be...  eek...  anyone have any good sources to learn more?

I still struggle with this to be honest.  I too am a "people pleaser", and feel I'm extremely flexible and always felt like it was a good thing and felt ok with it.  But the more I read it may be that I'm just self soothing and not all that aware of what my true needs really are.  I'm trying to explore that some, but it has not yet fully resonated with me yet.  I question if I 'am' co-dependant, or if I have taken on codependency as a survival mechanism because of the emotional abuse.  Probably some of both.

As for the empath thing, I looked into it some because I have felt like I do empathize so much and feel it so deeply.  On the flip side, the BPD is hyper aware of their partners emotions, constantly watching for subtle signs, tone of voice, mannerisms, facial twitches or expressions. Couple that with the unpredictability and seemingly random changes in mood and responses from them, to survive in such a relationship for any length of time, I have learned that I NEED to be hyper aware of my own emotions (to hide them and deal with them internally to not provoke a response or diversion), and of my pwBPD to gauge what I should or should not say. 

There is a guy on youtube with a bunch of videos on the interplay between a codependent and a pwBPD.  He's not a therapist so I take what he says with a grain of salt, but he makes some interesting points and explains things well.   There are in fact some similarities between BPD and codependency in terms of the core issues from what I have come across (on a different scale).  But the thing I have taken away from that too is that codependent traits are not necessarily a bad thing when kept in perspective and that it can a learned response that can be unlearned.  I'm not seeing it as a bad thing... I'm taking it that I was predisposed to this kind of relationship.  Having fallen into it, it has taken advantage of that tendency and caused me to loose sight of myself. To the point of being completely oblivious to it until recently.  The problem now in my mind is how I can make any progress on myself while still in it, when I'm the only one aware of the problem.  Back to the whole addict analogy.  And not to mention my daughter, and even my pwBPD for that matter.  By being there and giving and placating the situation, I'm holding her back from coming to any kind of realization for herself.  I'm keep the wool over her eyes so to speak.

Sometimes I feel like I need a psychology degree to just sort through this stuff.

[DefiantRaspberry]

I really do believe this. Once our therapist explained this to me it really made sense.  The days seem to be much smoother when I think of him as a child but of course I cannot be patronizing.  I just don't share my thoughts and feelings and say encouraging things to him (even for taking out the garbage or doing the dishes.)  Does make things smoother on a day to day basis but sure isn't what I thought I was signing up for 10 years ago when I said "i do."  Also, it means not having an emotionally intimate or sophisticated relationship with your spouse and that for me is so unsatisfying.   Not to mention treating your spouse like you would treat a child is a real buzz kill romantically.  But I do agree with what you point out.  It is best to keep this perspective in mind and it does make the everyday smoother. 

This is so true and hits the nail on the head for me. Even if he could possibly control himself enough to remove the abusive behaviors and the worst of the other negative stuff (jealousy, controlling, over-attached), there would ALWAYS be that. That feeling more like a parent at times. It's a major buzzkill. My H gets mega-frustrated so easily and gets all this anxiety around certain things. For example, trying to play a new board or card games, he struggles to understand even kid ones. The other weekend, I was starving so he said he would help the kids with a new-to-them game so I could eat, but even though it's a kid-friendly game, he couldn't figure out the rules? It's like, wow. I get that some people's brains work differently, but it's exhausting and not what I signed up for. He's on a completely different plane than me intellectually and emotional maturity, which will NEVER change (not trying to sound arrogant, really hope I don't come off as such). Maybe without all the other stuff, I could overlook it or come to terms with it. And these aren't things we could ever really tell them, either, since they're so insecure already. It's like, they can probably visualize how they should be less angry but not how to be more mature.

At least 4 out of 7 days, I have to help him find his wallet/keys/shoes/phone. And he wants validation like a child, too. Like he cleans the kitchen every day, which is great, but makes sure everyone in the house knows how hard he works. Of course these things are appreciated, but I shouldn't feel like I need to hand out gold stars for every little basic human task.

Sorry, this turned into a mini-rant. But like you point out, Popsie, living like treating our spouse like a child isn't fair nor sustainable nor a balanced relationship. While everyone needs nuturing from time-to-time, it shouldn't be constant.

[DefiantRaspberry]

I still struggle with this to be honest.  I too am a "people pleaser", and feel I'm extremely flexible and always felt like it was a good thing and felt ok with it.  But the more I read it may be that I'm just self soothing and not all that aware of what my true needs really are.  I'm trying to explore that some, but it has not yet fully resonated with me yet.  I question if I 'am' co-dependant, or if I have taken on codependency as a survival mechanism because of the emotional abuse.  Probably some of both.

I think some people in a relationship with a BPD are co-dependent, for sure. I think some, and I lump myself here too, aren't necessarily co-dependent in their overall life, but have become co-dependent in that specific relationship. This is my personal theory.

[maxsterling]

I think some people in a relationship with a BPD are co-dependent, for sure. I think some, and I lump myself here too, aren't necessarily co-dependent in their overall life, but have become co-dependent in that specific relationship. This is my personal theory.

I actually disagree with the premise of co-dependency.  My understanding is that term came from the 12 step programs as a label from family/SOs of alcoholics/addicts.  If you go to an alanon meeting, you will hear plenty of self pity stories from folks who say they are co-dependent and their co-dependency was just as bad as their spouse's drinking.  They would actually take blame for their partner's substance abuse.  In some cases, that may be true.  But the vast majority I saw were people who got caught up in this cycle and no longer knew which was was up.  Yet, others in the program would tell them they are co-dependent, and then they would walk around feeling defective.  My feeling is that their lives more closely matched the classic abuse cycle.  ANYONE can get caught in the abuse cycle, and once in, your behaviors then resemble the classic "codepencency".  My last T felt this way - did not like the term "codependent".  She basically told me, "Max, there is nothing you are doing wrong.  You are not co-dependent.  You are in an abusive relationship."

[ForeverDad]

My feeling is that their lives more closely matched the classic abuse cycle.  ANYONE can get caught in the abuse cycle, and once in, your behaviors then resemble the classic "codepencency".  My last T felt this way - did not like the term "codependent".  She basically told me, "Max, there is nothing you are doing wrong.  You are not co-dependent.  You are in an abusive relationship."

Some members arrive here and serious ask, "My spouse always insists I'm the one who is wrong and causing our problems.  Am I the one with BPD or some other PD?"

After the usual disclaimers that we're peer support and not doctors, I typically comment that their sincere questions indicate they're not disordered.  Usually we can read their posts and assess that their posts do indicate they're relatively normal persons caught in distressing circumstances.

Professionals would likely call it Projection or Transference.  We use terms like Blaming and Blame Shifting

I often describe it as a situational behavior pattern.  They were reacting to and not causing the dysfunctional and unhealthy relationship.

[DefiantRaspberry]

Good points, FD and max. I read the "Co-Dependent No More" book a while ago and hated the whole thing, . Maybe that means something!

H actually used to call themselves co-dependent until we looked up what it was supposed to mean. He's not "co-dependent", he just has huge insecurities, intense fear of abandonment, forms inappropriate levels of attachment and strives for total enmeshment. When you combine those with intense jealousy/paranoia, it's a very bad relationship formula.

[Notwendy]

Just because one doesn't "believe" in codependency does not make it a potential effective tool for working on oneself in a dysfunctional relationship. I think the term is confusing because I will agree that there are plenty of "normal" people caught up in dysfunctional and abusive circumstances who could fit the description of co-dependent. I also think the term is misleading because most of these people are not dependent people.

Probably a better way of describing it is a person who has an uneven balance of focusing on other people's needs and feelings to the detriment of their own. They are mostly reacting to the other person's moods and feelings rather than acting in their own course. Letting a dysfunctional person drive the wheel so to speak while they do damage control and also to the extent of their own detriment.

Yes, it did come from the original AA 12 steps. It was observed that something was keeping the alcoholics from getting better, and that something was their enabler spouses who were not allowing them to face the consequences of their own behavior, hit bottom and take responsibility to change on their own. So a program began to try to understand why the partners of the disordered people were so willing to engage in enabling behavior to the extent of their own detriment.

I resisted it too and had no idea why a 12 step model would help me since alcohol is not a problem I deal with. Until a sponsor who was actually brutally honest volunteered to work with me, turn the mirror on me and showed me my part in the dysfunction dynamics and I found it made a difference for me. It doesn't require belief, maybe just being fed up enough with dysfunction to try it.

It's known that leaving a dysfunctional relationship without doing the personal work on one's side of it makes them prone to repeat the pattern with someone else.

Call it whatever one wants- enabling, codependency, empath, poor boundaries- they mostly mean similar things,  but whatever it's called- if it requires doing some work on personal change, that's more likely to help than trying to change the other person. Maybe it's about investing some time into self care, and being kind to oneself, not taking on a harsh label or thinking one is abnormal.

[maxsterling]

Good points, FD and max. I read the "Co-Dependent No More" book a while ago and hated the whole thing, . Maybe that means something!

I was suggested to read that, I did, and found it really didn't describe me or my situation very well.  Not saying it was a bad book, just that I couldn't relate.  I took what I could from it, though.

It's weird.  One time my dad said to my W when she was pregnant something along the lines that growing up I always liked to take care of others and he likened my W to a "bird with a broken wing".  Huh?  Not sure where my dad got that, because I would much rather not take care of others.  I would much rather me take care of myself and others take care of themselves.   Not that I don't care, but that is not a role I like to be in or desire to be in.   I would *never* have wanted to be in this kind of r/s - it just so happened I wound up this way.  Not that I mind taking care of W, it's just that I would rather not have to.  That's where the book did not resonate with me.  I took from it that a co-dependent person needs another half to caretake in order for feel complete, and that we subconsciously seek out that role.  Totally not me.

[Notwendy]

The book didn't resonate with me either. I am not sure it is that helpful.

I grew up to be a people pleaser, and a doormat in my family. Walking on eggshells growing up was the norm. Later on, then someone brought up the idea of co-dependency, it didn't make sense to me. I think it's the "dependent" in that term. I wasn't dependent on anyone in the classical sense. I pretty much took care of myself from my early teens, had a job and worked all through college.

It wasn't until I was fed up and ready to try anything reasonable. A T suggested it. I think I just was willing to try it. I don't think I quite got it right away.

[Popsie]

I still struggle with this to be honest.  I too am a "people pleaser", and feel I'm extremely flexible and always felt like it was a good thing and felt ok with it.  But the more I read it may be that I'm just self soothing and not all that aware of what my true needs really are.  I'm trying to explore that some, but it has not yet fully resonated with me yet.  I question if I 'am' co-dependant, or if I have taken on codependency as a survival mechanism because of the emotional abuse.  Probably some of both.

I can totally identify with this.  Im in the same boat.  As I read more about co-dependancy, I've started to think of it more as a spectrum.  I think I'm not an extreme case but definitely on the spectrum. Some things i can work on for sure. 

As for the empath thing, I looked into it some because I have felt like I do empathize so much and feel it so deeply.  On the flip side, the BPD is hyper aware of their partners emotions, constantly watching for subtle signs, tone of voice, mannerisms, facial twitches or expressions. Couple that with the unpredictability and seemingly random changes in mood and responses from them, to survive in such a relationship for any length of time, I have learned that I NEED to be hyper aware of my own emotions (to hide them and deal with them internally to not provoke a response or diversion), and of my pwBPD to gauge what I should or should not say. 

The hyper awareness with my H is so real!  Tone of voice and facial expressions are a really big deal.  For years I would torture myself wondering what voice to use, what facial expression to make if I needed to ask him to take out the recycling or whatever small task would usually set him off.  For so many years I took on this responsibility that it was me who had to change.  I have a pretty expressive face and a few years ago I started to wonder if my facial expressions were part of the communication problem I was having with H (this was before I started to suspect he had BPD.)  Well, our fighting got so bad and i was so desperate to be able to ask him for his help without the risk of him getting defensive that I actually got botox between my eyebrows!  Kinda hilarious but also sadly the truth!  Can't say i really noticed a huge difference in the fighting because he would always find some other "evidence" that I "think he is a piece of S&*t" but I did look a lot more relaxed!  Silver lining?  Sigh.  anyway, kind of sad reason to get botox when I read this story back...

 

My H gets mega-frustrated so easily and gets all this anxiety around certain things. For example, trying to play a new board or card games, he struggles to understand even kid ones. The other weekend, I was starving so he said he would help the kids with a new-to-them game so I could eat, but even though it's a kid-friendly game, he couldn't figure out the rules? It's like, wow. I get that some people's brains work differently, but it's exhausting and not what I signed up for.

So interesting to compare notes. This paragaraph really hits home for me (especially the part about you being starving and just needing enough time alone to feed yourself!)  I have the same issue with my H but it's regarding anything technologically based.  For example, the TV/ phone/ computer.  He is smart so it is very odd to watch him get so angry when he cant figure out his phone.
 Ive actually seen him roll around on the floor screaming  like a 3 year old when he thought he had deleted an email.  My very unprofessional theory is that he is lacks confidence in dealing with "technology" to the point where his primitive brain takes over the minute he even picks up the device so he starts from a place of "fight or flight" and his sophisticated brain can't even function like a kid having a tantrum.  I talk to him like i do my kids, " take a deep breath.  There is always a solution.  It will be hard to find a solution if you are stressed out."  but that makes him so mad and then i become the target so now i just leave the room!  Ugh its so hard to be around and I really hate what he is modelling for the kids when he goes to that "primitive" place.

Anyone else feel like a human receptacle for your spouse's self hatred?

On a lighter note, so many great posts here.  I'm getting a lot from reading all the different points of views and experiences so thanks for you time everyone.

[DefiantRaspberry]

So interesting to compare notes. This paragaraph really hits home for me (especially the part about you being starving and just needing enough time alone to feed yourself!)  I have the same issue with my H but it's regarding anything technologically based.  For example, the TV/ phone/ computer.  He is smart so it is very odd to watch him get so angry when he cant figure out his phone.
 Ive actually seen him roll around on the floor screaming  like a 3 year old when he thought he had deleted an email.  My very unprofessional theory is that he is lacks confidence in dealing with "technology" to the point where his primitive brain takes over the minute he even picks up the device so he starts from a place of "fight or flight" and his sophisticated brain can't even function like a kid having a tantrum.  I talk to him like i do my kids, " take a deep breath.  There is always a solution.  It will be hard to find a solution if you are stressed out."  but that makes him so mad and then i become the target so now i just leave the room!  Ugh its so hard to be around and I really hate what he is modelling for the kids when he goes to that "primitive" place.

Anyone else feel like a human receptacle for your spouse's self hatred?

Mine can be similar with technology, too! He can figure some stuff out but honestly is like a Boomer instead of millennial (no shade, just generalizations) in terms of tech savvy. Drives me crazy. But that's a good theory, Popsie. I'm a SUPER logical person that can actually work out most stuff just by sheer logic, and it drives him nuts because he just...can't (in fact, he used to turn it into a paranoia thing that just because I could use a YouTube video to make a simple repair to the washing machine, I must've slept with a plumber in the past    /side rant - though he's not said that in a while, thankfully).

I think, like you said, the primitive part of their brain kicks in! I never thought of it like that, thanks. He's like that with board/card games, for sure, as it's become so ingrained in his poor self esteem that he's "bad" at games, so I think that part of the brain takes over and he loses that function. Even the kids are tired of it - they're outgrowing easy games like Sorry & Uno (which are fine sometimes but not always/forever), so when he asks to play games with them, I can see their non-verbal reluctance! They don't want to deal with Dad's inability to cope or sometimes even tantrums, but they're bored of the super-easy games. That's a sort of thing that's only going to get worse as they get older, too. I have to remind myself that he's NOT stupid, he does complex calculations & things at work daily, but when he can't even help the 3rd grader with his math (another thing he's so ingrained that he's "bad at"), it's really hard not to get a bit despondent AND depressed about the future. I feel like this is a good example of something that's not abusive but fosters a tense/difficult environment which directly effects the kids.

[lostinvt]

He's like that with board/card games, for sure, as it's become so ingrained in his poor self esteem that he's "bad" at games, so I think that part of the brain takes over and he loses that function. Even the kids are tired of it - they're outgrowing easy games like Sorry & Uno (which are fine sometimes but not always/forever), so when he asks to play games with them, I can see their non-verbal reluctance! They don't want to deal with Dad's inability to cope or sometimes even tantrums, but they're bored of the super-easy games. That's a sort of thing that's only going to get worse as they get older, too.

I'm really connecting with this thought process.  My pwBPD doesn't want to try any new games ever... just the same ones.  Not too simple, but certainly nothing new.. and when we do she gets frustrated really easy.  Tends to forget a rule, and when we look it up and it's not as she said it's always 'well we have always played it like ...'.  Also I remember she always used to get upset with me if I won, saying I'm playing 'cuthroat', that's it's just a game and I need to lighten up.  So I should just make random moves?  I never got that, but NOW I do.  "I guess mom doesn't get to win" was common too.  She doesn't like to play games anymore.

[Popsie]

I feel like this is a good example of something that's not abusive but fosters a tense/difficult environment which directly effects the kids.

Really well put.  I really worry about this too.  I see my kids do that non-verbal reluctance thing all the time with him.  its so painful to watch. I just want to rescue them in that moment.  And I can really feel my H's pain in the subtle rejection by his kids just solidify his self doubt.  

And wow, to be accused of sleeping with a plumber as to the reason why you are able to figure out how to fix something must have really been aggravating!  Its so painful to be put down like that when he should be grateful you took the chore on in the first place so he didn't have to!  Lots of similarities to my situation in this.  The jealousy is a real trigger for me.  I have to really work on not losing it and stooping his level when he accuses me of being disloyal or dishonest.  really hate that.

The primitive brain idea came to me when i was learning about 3 year old tantrums in an emotion coaching class i took out of desperation because i was getting mad at my kids too much and felt horrible about myself.  It was super helpful and radically changed the way I parent.  The theory is that when kids have tantrums they are literally unable to use logic so its best to just be patient and wait until their logical brains come back "on line" instead of scolding them or getting upset at them for having a tantrum.  (It only makes them feel shame about their feelings when they are unable to control themselves.)  Then you can actually talk to them and reason with them when there logical brain is working again.  Figuring this out took away a lot of the frustration for me.  Applying this idea to my H also really helps me in the moment.  but of course doesn't help the issue with "feeling like you are married to a child" problem.  I'm guessing my H was scolded or mocked by his mom (pwBPD i suspect) for having a tantrum and he never developed the skills to identify his feelings and the self awareness to self regulate/ self sooth his emotions.  Makes me so sad when I think of him as a small child having big emotions with nobody to comfort him and tell him his feelings are accepted and normal.

[DefiantRaspberry]

Applying this idea to my H also really helps me in the moment.  but of course doesn't help the issue with "feeling like you are married to a child" problem.  I'm guessing my H was scolded or mocked by his mom (pwBPD i suspect) for having a tantrum and he never developed the skills to identify his feelings and the self awareness to self regulate/ self sooth his emotions.  Makes me so sad when I think of him as a small child having big emotions with nobody to comfort him and tell him his feelings are accepted and normal.

Yeah and I get that's why all the advice is to validate their feelings (like a kid), but like you said is frustrating and harbors resentment to resort to parenting techniques for your spouse. A T told him one time that his brain goes into emotional age of a 7yo when disregulated, which he agreed with and took to heart, though it doesn't CHANGE anything unfortunately.

I had a private laugh a few months ago, as I was in a school meeting for my son who's autistic. The teachers & paras were talking about different methods of dealing with his behavior, etc. It occured to me that everything they were saying applied to my H as well (thankfully he'd left the meeting by then as he had work, though I don't think HE would've made the connection). But I don't WANT to live my life having to employ parenting and behaviorial techniques on my partner, even if they work or not. I didn't sign up for that. That's where I struggled. Technically, "in sickness and in health" and all that crap, but how totally unfair. (life is unfair)

[livednlearned]

When the relationship ends, it usually is not a surprise.

People with BPD traits typically live with chronic fear of abandonment and engage in frantic efforts, often maladaptive, to manage those fears. There is no stability in the relationship because there is no stability in the self. To someone with BPD, you are abandoning him/her constantly because it is easier to perceive someone else doing this than recognizing it is she (or he) who is abandoning her (his) own self.

What is typically a surprise is the discovery that the usual words and actions no longer work to keep you attached.

The major change isn't the desire to go but the resolve to hold a boundary that is resolute. Your partners will be floored by this more than your desire to leave.

We can get so beaten down and turned around in these relationships that it takes everything just to survive. If you choose to leave in a way that preserves and protects what little you have left, that's to be respected. These are not just difficult relationships, they are the most difficult.

Try to view this as self-care for yourself. Let others be responsible for how they feel when you show concern for your own well-being.

You begin to model for others what it looks like to take care of yourself, showing others what your standards are so they know what it takes to be in a friendship or relationship with you.

The kids will take note  

[maxsterling]

Tone of voice and facial expressions are a really big deal.  For years I would torture myself wondering what voice to use, what facial expression to make if I needed to ask him to take out the recycling or whatever small task would usually set him off.  For so many years I took on this responsibility that it was me who had to change. 

Yep.  My W grew up with an abusive mother  She learned from birth to be hyper aware of mom's facial expressions as a survival mechanism.  I fear my kids are already learning this themselvesas a result of my Ws moods.

And W is keyed into my facial expressions.  She will claim I roll my eyes, have the wrong look on my face, etc.  And that is the focus of many rages.  The other night I was laying in bed with the TV on, almost asleep.  She came in to tell me something that was very important to her (something we had already discussed a few times all ready that day).  To her, I did not turn my head quickly enough to look at her when she was talking (remember, I was ALMOST asleep and my eyes were closed when she came in).  She immediately accused me of not caring because I did not look at her in the correct way.   

[DefiantRaspberry]

And W is keyed into my facial expressions.  She will claim I roll my eyes, have the wrong look on my face, etc.  And that is the focus of many rages.  The other night I was laying in bed with the TV on, almost asleep.  She came in to tell me something that was very important to her (something we had already discussed a few times all ready that day).  To her, I did not turn my head quickly enough to look at her when she was talking (remember, I was ALMOST asleep and my eyes were closed when she came in).  She immediately accused me of not caring because I did not look at her in the correct way.   

Deja vu. I roll my eyes. It's a thing. Probably not very mature nor a good habit, but we all have our foibles, right? Anyway, H is suuuuuuuuper sensitive and now will claim he saw me roll my eyes ALL the time, and if I say, "no, that time I did not" he'll claim I now do it so much it's subconscious. Uh-huh, ok.

[formflier]

Here is the thing, why "buy into" those conversations?

I tend to deflect them.  "Oh, are you asking about my perceptions?"   The key (at least in my theory) is to test and see how "curious" they are, vice "judgmental".

If there is curiosity, then I will venture forth in a conversation.

If there is "judgmentalism" especially the wildly inaccurate type about my thoughts and feelings, I don't validate that in anyway with further conversation.  

"Well, when you are curious about my thoughts...I'm available for a chat."  (said neutrally, I used to have big problems sounding like a smart azz)

Best,

FF

[DefiantRaspberry]

Here is the thing, why "buy into" those conversations?

Because they bully you into it, ha.

Anyway. Just as a semi-update, all the "trying" and "positivity" has gone out the window today. He has spiralled into the usual insecure, anxious, black-hole of neediness. All day, it's the old line of "just love me hard and it'll be okay", which we all know is true because their need *IS* a black hole, can never be filled. He's been clinging to me all day, asking me 400 times if I'm definitely not cheating, not leaving him, still care, etc.

Even saw a flare of one of his emotionally abusive mainstays, saying I'm flirting or looking to pick up guys (we were in store, he said something rude [not that], so I walked away which then triggered off major anxiety and the above sentence). Guess he learned nothing from my ultimatum and our six dozen conversations since. How sad. He even acknowledges he's not well, looking on the internet for a therapist, but at the same time pulls all this same stuff. He's so terrified because he fundamentally believes he cannot live without me, which is pretty hard to live with and try and get out of. I know I have to not take on that guilt/feeling/sentiment, but damn if that's not hard. (glad the kids are at school...hopefully he'll equalize a bit before they get home)

[Popsie]

So tough DR.  Sounds like you are doing a good job of not taking the bait but it must be exhausting.  I do find after a therapy session my H is in a much better headspace.  I wonder if it would help for him to have a weekly session just to keep things more stable for the time being.  Expensive suggestion i realize but maybe worth it for everyone's sanity in the house?  Also, it would mean he has support for if you do end up making an exit.

My H is in the middle of a 3 week work project that has him gone early am until late evening and it is a huge relief to not have to face him everyday.  That said, I am very anxious of what it will be like when things go back to normal.  I feel like I have to avoid eye contact with him all the time because he's always searching for evidence on my face to confirm that he is unlovable.  Sad thing is that I do still love many parts of him.  I even think he is physically attractive (even though he accuses me of thinking he is ugly, which I correct but he still doesn't believe me.)  It's just the way he treats me that is driving me away.  Sadly he can't understand that.  Cannot separate his behaviour from who he is as a person.  Jeeze this is tough.  Nice to know i'm not the only person in the world going through this.

[shoehorn81]

I have enjoyed reading all the comments on this thread.  I have also learned that I am not alone in my battles, and more so, not as crazy as I started to think I am.  My story is similar to many that have posted.  The co-dependency topic does raise some questions in my mind.  I find that on one hand I feel very co-dependent and almost BPD myself because of the accusations that come back from my W when I try to question her about anything.  On the other hand I think to myself there is no way I have this disorder because I am the stable one (that is relative of course), and the one asking for help, the one that reached out to 2 T's and also is posting here.  I've even shown texts to friends and neighbors showing how W can not answer just a simple question, and always spins it back on me, and then even worse tries to manipulate me by bringing in our kids and using the "you don't care about their feelings" tactic.  (I've asked friends to be as honest as they can.  If it is me then so be it and I will get help.)  Its a crazy mind game that is played on me over and over.  Sunday I almost checked myself into a 72 hour Phsyc hold just to get my head back on straight.  I seriously thought I was 100% to blame for all our issues, for my W's aggression, taking and hiding of my personal belongings without me even knowing, outbursts on children...  (Had I only done this or that she would not be raging, or taking things.) So my question, do you find that the BPD can shift back and forth between partners?  I am convinced that my wife has high functioning BPD, T also said this as well as PTSD and some narcissistic traits. But, I find that I start to exhibit the same traits some times when an argument arises.  It's probably protection, self preservation and lack of education on how to deal with BPD outbursts.  Maybe projection?

[livednlearned]

So my question, do you find that the BPD can shift back and forth between partners?  I am convinced that my wife has high functioning BPD, T also said this as well as PTSD and some narcissistic traits. But, I find that I start to exhibit the same traits some times when an argument arises.  It's probably protection, self preservation and lack of education on how to deal with BPD outbursts.  Maybe projection?

It could be that you are both emotionally reactive. But she has fear of abandonment in addition to reactivity. Does that make sense?

The High-Conflict Couple by Alan Fruzetti is helpful when there is a pattern of emotional volatility in the relationship on both sides.

What traits are coming out during arguments?

[ForeverDad]

I would consider yours a "situational" issue.  If you were in a healthy, functional and reasonably normal you'd be just fine.  Sure, we all have minor issues but nothing that couldn't be addressed from within a reasonably normal relationship.

However, this is unhealthy, dysfunctional and seriously abnormal.  And you're being sucked into the abyss of despair and distress.

Have you watched the 1944 movie Gaslight?  A young girl is courted by a man who is intent of making her doubt her own sanity.  She keeps saying she sees the gas lights dimming over and over and he almost convinces her it's her losing her sanity and she needs to be committed to a sanitarium.  At the end of the movie we discover he's a criminal searching for a treasure hidden in her home.

What's being done to you verges on criminality but of course she won't be held accountable nor face a court of justice.  The solution is a tough one to swallow, recognize you have to save yourself, distance yourself from the unhealthy relationship, seek recovery over time and move on with your life

[matthew37]

Wow, I'm new here but just had to give a +1 to this entire thread. I feel 1000% better knowing I'm not the only one going through this, and if my participation gives that feeling back to anyone - that's why I posted. It's so so so sad, and my heart goes out to all of you experiencing anything similar (or worse)!