Blame for lack of emotional intimacy

[Cat Familiar]

The certainty that she demonstrates regarding her opinions is in conflict with her incompetence in participating in the external world.

You’ve had to be the caretaker, the wage earner, the househusband, etc., while she does what exactly, other than some care for the children?

So why would you ever value the opinion of a dysregulated person over your own?

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[GaGrl]

She has fixated on this one issue, that of communicating and having a relationship with your family. She sees this as a betrayal of the "contract" between you.

What exactly was this contract? What were her obligations in this contract?

Because within the primary marriage contract there are responsibilities and obligations for each partner, and she -- in her mental illness -- is not capable of fulfilling her obligations to you. Taken a step further, she is actively undermining the marriage contract with such actions as isolating you from your FOO.

She seeks a marriage of control -- not of partnership. Her desperate attempts to control you will never result in alleviating her emotional distress.

You are doing good and difficult work on yourself right now. That is where you can focus for now.

[truthdevotee]

The certainty that she demonstrates regarding her opinions is in conflict with her incompetence in participating in the external world.

You’ve had to be the caretaker, the wage earner, the househusband, etc., while she does what exactly, other than some care for the children?

So why would you ever value the opinion of a dysregulated person over your own?

Thank you Cat Familiar. I am very grateful for your powerful message.

Yes, it's time to stop that part of my psyche that is so self-doubting it would even consider that I deserve this rage. I'm realizing that I deserve, and want, a woman who truly loves me for who I am, and who I truly love, for who she is.

Fortunately, we were handed down all clothing and many, many toys, and we continue to receive these hand-me-downs, from my pwBPD's older sister who's has a son 3 years older than my eldest. Without this support... it would have been impossible... most other items (90%) needed for the boys were bought by me e.g. prams, toys, etc.

I've reached out to someone on Airbnb to see if I can rent a place for one month. Although I'm calm, I'm cautious; the black and white thinking and projecting is so intense and so angry, that I need to be careful. I still trust that she would do her best with the boys when she has energy to do so. When she doesn't have energy, she always contacts me. I've got a bag prepared for rapid leaving of the house in case things continue to get intense. At this point in time, there's no effort on her part to calm down when she's feeling so much rage.

[truthdevotee]

She has fixated on this one issue, that of communicating and having a relationship with your family. She sees this as a betrayal of the "contract" between you.

What exactly was this contract? What were her obligations in this contract?

So just under one year ago I managed to have her come to therapy sessions based on my limit to leave unless we both committed to getting help. At some point I agreed that she would have my parents phone number and not me and that we'd align on all communication before sending it. There was no obligation on her side to run communication via me when communicating with her family. The reasoning was that they helped us financially more, she didn't "betray" me with her FOO (her belief is that I betrayed her and talked badly about her with my FOO, when I was actually highlighting her good sides and trying to have my family feel some calm after some pretty crazy situations), she helped me "get along" with her family more than I did with mine, I'm enmeshed and she's not, etc.

I was doing everything I could to keep our family intact for the boys, as well as in memory of the deep pain I had seeing my parents fight, and the tendency to take responsibility for way too much (OCD kind of pattern) and I'm sure this is related to deep shame I've had too, which has been healing with my focus on recovery over the years. I've since learned since coming to this forum and through experience that keeping things intact at the expense of myself is just... Not a good lesson for my boys...

Because within the primary marriage contract there are responsibilities and obligations for each partner, and she -- in her mental illness -- is not capable of fulfilling her obligations to you. Taken a step further, she is actively undermining the marriage contract with such actions as isolating you from your FOO.

She seeks a marriage of control -- not of partnership. Her desperate attempts to control you will never result in alleviating her emotional distress.

I fully agree, a marriage of control.

You are doing good and difficult work on yourself right now. That is where you can focus for now.

Thanks =) thank you...

[truthdevotee]

Just booked an Airbnb close by, for 3 nights, starting from tomorrow. Agreed that if it works for me, I can extend to one month.

Amazing thing about Airbnb is how fast you can get a place with everything you need.

It is interesting that my mind automatically tries to minimise my wife's behaviour. I have to remind myself how severe it is. The reason for this I don't know. It's like after I have recovered from one of my wife's rages, I am hopeful that things could be different or she might have a good mood. It's amazing that the mind does this because experience 100% shows that the rage will return. Why does my mind so this? Minimizing... I wonder if it's a ploy from the unconscious to try to keep me in the familiar caretaker role.

The rages are very intense and full of hatred and the desire to hurt. So I have no idea why just 3 hours later I want to hope things might magically change... That's a sort of insanity... Is that common?

[GaGrl]

Was the couple's counselor involved in the "agreement/contracy"? Because if so, it sounds unethical to participate in such a one-sided, uneven arrangement.

As to the severity of your wife's condition -- she has a mental illness, and she is seriously dysfunctional. I doubt she is capable of functioning more than 37 hours without needing you (or someone else) to step in and alleviate her mental and emotional pain.

When you are doubting now had it is -- repeat to yourself that she is mentally ill.

[Notwendy]

The rages are very intense and full of hatred and the desire to hurt. So I have no idea why just 3 hours later I want to hope things might magically change... That's a sort of insanity... Is that common?

I think it is and I don't really know why this is. I do think that the rages serve as a relief/reset function. I have described it like a kid who ate too much candy. They then have a stomach ache and throw up. After that, they feel fine, like it never happened.

I have noticed that after a rage, the person is most lucid, and clear- it's then that we see the "person" as we wish we saw them all the time but it gives us hope. Like the kid with the stomach ache- they feel fine, the bad feelings are out and to them they are gone. They expect us to feel the same way - act as if it never happened.

It's the oddest thing to observe actually. But it seems to me to be a cycle.

[truthdevotee]

Was the couple's counselor involved in the "agreement/contracy"? Because if so, it sounds unethical to participate in such a one-sided, uneven arrangement.

As to the severity of your wife's condition -- she has a mental illness, and she is seriously dysfunctional. I doubt she is capable of functioning more than 37 hours without needing you (or someone else) to step in and alleviate her mental and emotional pain.

When you are doubting now had it is -- repeat to yourself that she is mentally ill.

GaGrl, thanks so much for this.

I see the tendency to minimise within myself because I so wanted us all to stay together.

Today I've packed bags and am going to the Airbnb, initially booked for 3 nights. Currently she doesn't know. I needed to keep it quiet because it can create another rage.

She's also at the point where she's throwing me out of the house. I'm not sure how serious she is, but she won't expect it to happen today.

I have the boys with me.

My wife tells our 3 year old that his daddy is dishonest. It is sad for me to hear.

I reminded myself that she has a mental illness this morning. It's a complete mindshift for me, as the tendency to believe I must be the problem is so deep. I think this must be from childhood, as a way to believe I have control over a terrible situation. If its me, I can fix it.

I'll tell her today by message that I have found a place already. I wonder if I should tell her that I think she has BPD? If so, I'm not sure how to do it. I've dropped it in conversation very gently, twice, but she didn't give any attention and said she's normal.

[Cat Familiar]

Telling her that she has BPD will not be beneficial. She will deny it and believe the problem is you.

I realize that you want to motivate her to look at her own behavior. It’s unlikely that she will do that, but more likely it will happen if you follow through with you plans and give her time alone, than if you tell her you suspect she has BPD.

You can see how her mental illness is beginning to impact the children. Remember to trust your own instincts.

[truthdevotee]

Thanks Cat Familiar.
Your message gave me strength tonight, and focus.
This morning she was dancing around the house whilst showing me the middle finger. It was like a hyper active anger that reflected the two year old.
Tonight I put the kids to bed and left the house to go to my flat.

She messaged me
[07/03, 20:24] Honey: Can you come and take care of them?
[07/03, 20:24] Honey: I can't live this way.
[07/03, 20:25] Honey: I give them up for you
[07/03, 20:25] Honey: It's breaking my heart to be in such situation

[truthdevotee]

I hadn't informed her about having found a flat until the evening. It came as a shock for her. Earlier in the day she was saying she wants me out by April 1st. I'm not sure how serious she was/is, but now that she's seeing it happen... she is struggling. For the first time after several days of rage/anger, she showed grief tonight seeing that I actually left the house to go to my new flat. That this is actually happening... she says it breaks her heart "to see you connecting with them and not connecting with me." The thing is, when she's so angry and enraged i.e. like 5 or 6 out of 10, there can be no connection. Similarly if there is solely blame/criticism and the desire to see me step into the caretaker role again, there can be no connection. So, she desires this emotional connection tremendously but does so much to make it an impossibility.

 

[GaGrl]

What she calls "emotional connection" is actually having someone (you) alleviate her emotional pain and distress.

This is not intimacy. It probably has been a very long time since you experienced emotional intimacy with your wife that was not wrapped up in a BPD episode.

Have you told her you cannot have an emotional connection with her when you are being demeaned and raged at? What do you say? How does she respond?

[truthdevotee]

What she calls "emotional connection" is actually having someone (you) alleviate her emotional pain and distress.

This is not intimacy. It probably has been a very long time since you experienced emotional intimacy with your wife that was not wrapped up in a BPD episode.

Have you told her you cannot have an emotional connection with her when you are being demeaned and raged at? What do you say? How does she respond?

Hi GaGrl. Yeah, over the last few days I've repeated it gently and firmly many times. At a certain point she can't calm down. And, even when her anger is at a manageable level and "talking" is possible, it's more like being talked "at" than "with." In these cases I do my best to validate her feelings and also share my perspectives. Her response is everything and anything that doesn't absorb what I'm saying - that emotional intimacy isn't possible if there are anger, blame and criticism. It's interesting that no amount of validation of her perspective and listening to her - sometimes for long time periods - seems to help her.

This morning I listened and validated for about 30 minutes, whilst giving her a hug. She couldn't receive the hug. Eventually, I started getting tired... I asked for some space... she didn't respect it... she continued to talk at me and at the expense of caring for the children for another 30 minutes. It was getting to me but reminding myself that she is mentally ill was helping me remain balanced and calm. On an inner level I was feeling overwhelmed. In the end, I left the house, and I'm at my flat now. I promised I'll be back by midday and will bring lunch for the boys. I'm sad to have left the boys there with her as I didn't give them a proper goodbye and the last they heard was mum and dad "talking" (mum talking at dad with high intensity). I trust they will be OK. They love her and she loves them. I hope in my overwhelm I didn't abandon them too suddenly.

I wanted to ask a question here about the content of this mornings "talk." She's reading the book: https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703

She's quoting from it with high intensity and trying to get me to see "myself." She's telling me I need to read it from beginning to end. She was saying that when I'm reading it I will go into pain but that I should just hold the pain within me and have an open mind. She said that if I don't read it then it's just because I'm not ready for it. The quotes she is quoting are all - from her perspective - all "me." There are some pieces which contain elements of truth of course.

Internally, I'm feeling somewhat off balance from this, and I think because she is striking me in a place where my self-doubt it triggered. I'm open to reading the book but not at the command of my wife and as just another way to support her projections. Has anybody read the book?

About my self-doubt - my pattern has been to "internalize" everything she has said about me over the years. Now, I don't mean to sound prideful, but for many years I've read hundreds of books and have dedicated myself to daily 12 step meetings as much as possible, as well as therapy. Through learning she has BPD, I'm stepping out of that tendency to internalize, which I mentioned in a previous post I think stems from wanting the illusion of control in my childhood i.e. "if my parents are fighting, it must be about me, and I can fix it."

The self-doubt is triggered with the thought "what if she's right." What if this is really all about me and I just am not ready for that book. On a logical level, I see that doubt is irrational and things are much more grey and nuanced; the book would provide me with lots of insights, I'm sure, and I'm constantly reading books with the goal of self-understanding and living a happier life.

My instinct tells me that she's aware probably unconsciously that she's striking my weak point of hyper-responsibility and self-doubt, by telling me I'm prideful and if I don't read this book then it's just "because you're not ready for it." So I can see she's trying to get me to doubt myself and the honest work I've been doing over the years, including reading several books with similar topics. I'm not saying "I'm perfect and I've arrived at perfection" at all - I'm sure this book she is obtaining so much help from at the moment (which I bought for her), would be helpful for me too. It's just my instinct is telling me that she's using the book as a way to get me to backtrack on the whole "breaking the contract thing," apologize, and only make an agreement she's comfortable with.

It's all so crazy making. Every part of it. And I'm feeling it now and it took me off balance this morning. The endless contradictions, the constant emotional pressure and stress about my FOO. It's so crazy making and intense that I can't really describe it in detail right now. It's just so full of distortion, control and deception - she pretends that she's "fine" with them and that "as long as you see your mother enmeshment pattern than we can move forward." Yet, this has not been the case over the years... it's been endless... and it's only coming to an end now that I'm stepping out of it.

So regarding the whole contract "breaking thing." She said that I broke it and that's why she's so angry over the last few days. I told her in clear terms that I will be calling my parents and that the contract doesn't stand any more, before I actually called them. I have also empathized and validated as much as possible over the last few days.

She's using the whole contract thing, my instinct says, to pull me back into a marriage of control - where she believes we have "mutual agreement" but which my experience over the past 8 years is not at all mutual agreement - it is agreeing with HER! It is also being her caretaker by sitting for endless hours listening to her blame and criticism of the world around her and the feelings underneath but which aren't consciously recognized.

So I write all of this, just to ask, hopefully one last time, could this be ME? Is this "breaking the contract thing" really as she says it is and therefore has the right to feel angry?

I'm very grateful for the help I've received to get me out of this situation where contact with my FOO is in her control, done in the way she wants it, at all times, or there is hell to pay. It's just that this morning, I think her pain got past my boundary as she was triggering this pocket of self-doubt by telling me how I am simply blind, not ready, etc. On a logical level I see the almost constant projection - everything she says, as well as quoting from the book, is so obviously what she is doing! Yet on the emotional level my anxiety and self-doubt got triggered.

[truthdevotee]

Apologies for such a long post above.

Here are some messages she just sent :

[08/03, 09:18] Honey: I would love you read the book. It's very profound, it goes to the core of your psychological potential. T
[08/03, 09:19] Honey: The chapter is on the page 126, starts with Dabrowski
[08/03, 09:22] Honey: I care for you the most so before I ever would potentially share it with anybody else I would love you read the book. It's very profound, it goes to the core and provide growth to your psychological potential.
[08/03, 09:23] Honey: If the person is open to receive.
[08/03, 09:25] Honey: It tells you a lot about me so I am giving you potential threat.



I agreed so far that I'll read the specific parts she recommends for me but not the whole book. I sense she will be angry if i  understand the book differently and obtain different insights and I told her this much occur.

It's also just not pleasant to read a book in an atmosphere of judgment and stress, when it should be a healing experience.

However, please let me know your feedback, perhaps I should go ahead and read it? Perhaps i can create it into a connecting experience.

On the other hand, I've got 3 open BPD books at the moment, and not much time to read anything! I think i should prioritize the book Stop Caretaking, because I see how spot on and insightful it is, so many aha moments and practical actions I can implement from it.

[truthdevotee]

Last post. One of the indicators I have that this - for her - is a marriage of control rather than one of partnership (which she presents it to be), is the fact that she hasn't ever told me and still won't, how much money she has in her bank account. Despite me being so generous over the years, having no money saved, accepting the fact the boys would take her surname (not what we wanted, but due to legislation in the country I live in plus other complex factors, we couldn't mix our surnames and we are not formally married), her father and her having the flat in their names despite my contribution, the car being in her name and me paying for petrol and insurance... plus everything else (too long to list), she still has not ever told me - just for the sake of openness and transparency - what she has saved in her account.

All of this was my choice and responsibility - as the caretaker I gave way too much and had no limits of my own, and genuinely wanted to be a strong husband and father. Yet, the fact that what is in her account is kept hidden must be for control purposes.

[truthdevotee]

She writes :

Honey

my opinion is after reading the book that I triggered your painful feelings that you could not stand them anymore and went to get the comfort from your parents. It feels secure.

Growing means to go through the painful feelings.

I have the same honey but to go to family is not helpful but more damage to your growth.



So, it is true I went through a lot of painful feelings. However, in the last year they had mostly subsided. Yet something was still wrong. I could feel it and my life energy was flat and I was resentful for feeling controlled in so many areas of life.

Then 1 month ago I discover BPD and this forum, and it paints the full picture.

As usual, she is telling me I'm prideful and asking me for humility (to see things her way), perhaps as a way to manipulate and stay in control. She would like things to change very very slowly, or perhaps not at all until she's satisfied that I'm not "mother enmeshed."

This is the first time I've ever stood according to my instinct (with your help on the forum), but it is also confusing because she is so so so sure of herself!

[khibomsis]

Hey truthdevotee, I am sorry you are going through such a tough time! At least you have the flat to flee to, I hope it is giving you the breather you need to stay calm.

Look, there is never a situation where only one party is at fault. In BPD relationships, the classic combination is either BPD/narcissist or BPD/co-dependence. In both cases, the relationship changes when both parties are willing to change. In your case which sounds co-dependent to me, the way things change is by the co-dependent setting boundaries which forces the BPD to change patterns of behaviour.

Now, as much as it is no use for you to point out to your wife that she is BPD, there is also no point in her trying to tell you what is wrong with you and how you should change. True change comes from within, it comes when you are ready and how you are ready. The same for her.  No matter how right she may be (and in the end no one can make that assessment except yourself), she is not right in seeking to force you to "buy into" her conceptual world.  The more so since we all agree that her conceptual world is not altogether sane. Don't let crazy run your life.

What she should be doing is focusing on her issues and how she can change for a better marriage. At the moment it sounds as if she is doing full scale projection as a way to avoid focusing on her own problems (lack of anger management, low functioning, and indeed projection itself). An analogy would be that you decide broccoli is good for her and then force it down her throat. Whether or not it is good for her,  the control aspect of it would cause more trauma than it solves.

You were doing great handling your FOO issues in your own way, at your own pace. What she needs to do is to provide a positive loving environment for change to happen. Well, of course this is not going to happen with BPD, we nons very much go through the tough times on our own. In my view you are merely prolonging the conflict by having fuzzy boundaries. If you allow her concessions while she behaves the way she does you are feeding the behaviour. Stay firm. You will read the book when you have time. In the meantime you do not wish to discuss your FOO issues, you wish to discuss what constitutes civilized behaviour in the home. If you do a broken record that may sink in with time. 

Indeed, what is not happening while she is projecting all over the place are some very important discussions about finances and transparency. If you are not married, do you have a domestic partnership agreement? If not, drawing one up would be a good way to create space to maybe bring some structure into your lives.

Hope you are breathing/chanting!

 

[Notwendy]

I might digress here, but this is a mystery from my childhood that I had a difficult time comprehending. It is in regards to your "controlling marriage".

How does someone see themselves as so deserving? And how do they get someone to go along with it?

During the years of their marriage, my BPD mother didn't earn any money. I don't dispute that relationship as I also stayed home and raised children and have worked but don't earn as much as my H. However, I also contribute in other ways in terms of child care, house work, cleaning, organizing. I do "work" that isn't measured in a paycheck which then frees him up to work outside the home. I wasn't asked to do this, it's a part of my own work ethic. I would not think it was right to not do it. When my parents married, it was common for women to not work outside the home and be "housewives" so this situation was the norm. I also noticed growing up that my friends' mothers did many jobs in the home.

However, my mother didn't work outside the home or inside the home. I can understand this if someone was unable to do it and she does have a mental illness, but she is able to do it, she just won't, and not only does she not feel uncomfortable about it, she seems to act entitled to it.

It's the entitlement I don't understand. My father worked, she controlled the money. He didn't seem to have anything for himself except his hobbies and job. She has the best of everything. He didn't buy these things for himself. She'd order him to do things- he'd do it. I know he was a part of this too and yet, I couldn't treat someone like that.

When I read your paragraph about working, providing, doing the child care yet, she owns the house and the bank account and your kids don't have your name.

What on earth does someone do to feel so deserving of this as well as get someone to go along with it? It was always a mystery to me. Yes, my mother was attractive and there's that aspect to a marriage but that can only go so far in a relationship.

Here's the other side of the mystery- my mother always finds someone to go along with her. Not only in a romantic situation but people who take on caretaker roles with her. There is something about both people in this kind of arrangement. So with regards to your self doubt- yes there has to be aspects to you- and your upbrining possibly that makes you and your wife an emotional match. Perhaps it's the self doubt and people pleasing. But I don't think that's the part that she's unhappy about.

It's interesting because my BPD mother also read a lot of psychology self help books. Her conclusion though was usually that we were responsible for the problem, not her but I wonder now if these were projections.  When your wife is reading this book and saying there are parts that are emotionally difficult for you, perhaps she means her.

You have been in an arrangement - one your wife calls an agreement- that has worked best for her emotional comfort ( as much as that can possibly be). This would be fine if it worked for you as well but you aren't happy with that, and you made a change. This change in dynamics resulted in less comfort for her. So now she's not happy with this. Her instinct is to get you back into these dynamics- as this is familiar for both of you and she's doing what she thinks will work. I don't know if there's any malicious intent with this- it might be just how she perceives it. Your task is to hold on to your perception of yourself..

[truthdevotee]

Hi thanks so so much khibomsis
Your reply is super helpful

I feel sad for the kids. Little boys having to listen to her and her inconsistency caring for them. In some way it makes me tempted to submit. I wouldn't do so now it's gone so far. I feel somehow responsible and sad for my little boys. =(

[Notwendy]

It's tempting to submit for the boys' sakes and in some ways, I think all parents do things for the sake of their children as part of raising them. But consider also that you are role modeling how to be a husband and father for them in both positive and negative ways. You did not do a major thing- you simply called your mother. You stood up for this value and even if it's difficult, do you wish to role model this to your boys? If you stand up for your values you role model this for them too.

[truthdevotee]

I might digress here, but this is a mystery from my childhood that I had a difficult time comprehending. It is in regards to your "controlling marriage".

How does someone see themselves as so deserving? And how do they get someone to go along with it?

During the years of their marriage, my BPD mother didn't earn any money. I don't dispute that relationship as I also stayed home and raised children and have worked but don't earn as much as my H. However, I also contribute in other ways in terms of child care, house work, cleaning, organizing. I do "work" that isn't measured in a paycheck which then frees him up to work outside the home. I wasn't asked to do this, it's a part of my own work ethic. I would not think it was right to not do it. When my parents married, it was common for women to not work outside the home and be "housewives" so this situation was the norm. I also noticed growing up that my friends' mothers did many jobs in the home.

However, my mother didn't work outside the home or inside the home. I can understand this if someone was unable to do it and she does have a mental illness, but she is able to do it, she just won't, and not only does she not feel uncomfortable about it, she seems to act entitled to it.

It's the entitlement I don't understand. My father worked, she controlled the money. He didn't seem to have anything for himself except his hobbies and job. She has the best of everything. He didn't buy these things for himself. She'd order him to do things- he'd do it. I know he was a part of this too and yet, I couldn't treat someone like that.

When I read your paragraph about working, providing, doing the child care yet, she owns the house and the bank account and your kids don't have your name.

What on earth does someone do to feel so deserving of this as well as get someone to go along with it? It was always a mystery to me. Yes, my mother was attractive and there's that aspect to a marriage but that can only go so far in a relationship.

Here's the other side of the mystery- my mother always finds someone to go along with her. Not only in a romantic situation but people who take on caretaker roles with her. There is something about both people in this kind of arrangement. So with regards to your self doubt- yes there has to be aspects to you- and your upbrining possibly that makes you and your wife an emotional match. Perhaps it's the self doubt and people pleasing. But I don't think that's the part that she's unhappy about.

It's interesting because my BPD mother also read a lot of psychology self help books. Her conclusion though was usually that we were responsible for the problem, not her but I wonder now if these were projections.  When your wife is reading this book and saying there are parts that are emotionally difficult for you, perhaps she means her.

You have been in an arrangement - one your wife calls an agreement- that has worked best for her emotional comfort ( as much as that can possibly be). This would be fine if it worked for you as well but you aren't happy with that, and you made a change. This change in dynamics resulted in less comfort for her. So now she's not happy with this. Her instinct is to get you back into these dynamics- as this is familiar for both of you and she's doing what she thinks will work. I don't know if there's any malicious intent with this- it might be just how she perceives it. Your task is to hold on to your perception of yourself..

Thank you... I listened to everything you said, and absorbed it, and will read it again and reflect on it. I'm in a state of grief at the moment, so I won't, for the moment, reply directly to it.

Today it got to the point where I can't do it anymore. I left the house. She is scared that I want to steal her children, so she wouldn't let me take them. She's banned me from using the car (it is hers, after all). I came to my Airbnb flat. On the way, I was sobbing - not for her, but for my boys. I just love them so much and I guess I have tons of attachment to them. I pray for their strength and love to surround them. It hit me that I can't be in the same room as her anymore. Psychologically I'm getting way too exhausted. Whenever I am there, she is raging. Whenever I am not, at least the boys have a peaceful atmosphere.

I've said to her that I don't want to communicate face to face anymore. I'd only do so with a professional mediator or therapist involved. I've stepped away now. It's hard because I cry for my boys, I love them. And I'm praying and I trust God will lead toward the Highest Good. I told my partner that I'll only email or text message. Honestly, we are much more effective that way, because I can step away more easily (i.e. look away from the phone for a few minutes), to self-regulate and not get bombarded by the rage.

It is interesting. I've always noticed a kind of psychic bind between us, where I'll think something and she will say it a few minutes later. Well, it happened. I made the decision internally that I can't talk to her anymore, and I quietly started getting myself ready to leave the house to go to my Airbnb flat. I guess she picked up on it. In one last moment her approach completely changed, as I was leaving the house, she put her hand on my back and said stay and let's resolve it. 2 hours later she was blocking the very same door and raging in my face. I can't trust her to stay calm... so I said I need physical space, and I left.


I told her that I'm grieving.

[truthdevotee]

It's tempting to submit for the boys' sakes and in some ways, I think all parents do things for the sake of their children as part of raising them. But consider also that you are role modeling how to be a husband and father for them in both positive and negative ways. You did not do a major thing- you simply called your mother. You stood up for this value and even if it's difficult, do you wish to role model this to your boys? If you stand up for your values you role model this for them too.

Hi Notwendy, thanks for helping me with this. This is really key as so much grief is related to the boys. Your message helps me reflect beyond the grief.

I remember now why I'm doing this... would I want my boys to stop contacting me, or in any way, shape or form want their partner's to control them? Definitely not... so by following my heart, which is really acting ethically and according to my values, I am showing them how to follow their heart. Ultimately, that is the lesson I would want to teach - don't let someone control you, and know thyself.

Know Thyself. It's exactly this that I didn't do, so I'm learning to do it now at 34 years of age. I'd like them to Know Thyself by the age of 18, so that they have the confidence to follow their heart and not get drowned in so much pain. By removing them from a volatile emotional atmosphere, by removing myself, I'm doing something good.

It is so good to remember this. They can't learn what I haven't learned. If I learn it, then I can teach it by who I am and when they're older, through what I say.

Today I told the boys not to be scared of mummy's anger. I'm not sure if it was appropriate, but despite their young age I sensed they deserve some sort of indicator that it's not healthy and that they are safe.

[truthdevotee]

It is good to reflect on "Know Thyself"

When I first met my partner with BPD, I was addicted to love/dating. My commitment to pwBPD over the years has been a gift in this regard; by committing, I had more resolve to step out of my addiction. I also joined the 12 step groups just before I met her.

The reason I stayed with her, despite alarm bells ringing for me over several weeks, was because my sponsor advised it. He's a strong minded fellow. Since I didn't have resolve of my own and didn't know myself, I listened to him. Ultimately, I believe this was all a gift - I needed him and I still benefit from his guidance, and he's an extremely big hearted fellow. If I knew myself better at the time and had the confidence to listen to my heart, I wouldn't have stayed. I don't blame him at all, he was just there to be asked for guidance and over the years he has helped me understand manhood and grow into a man. With an emotionally absent father growing up, I was attracted to male sponsors in their 60s or 70s to guide me and help me become disciplined, confident, loyal, effective, etc. So it was all perfect - I see that my strong minded sponsor had his own learning curve and comparing to a few years ago, he appears different to me.

So yeah, this is just a small reflection on Know Thyself. It's this lesson I've needed to learn the hard way.

I don't really know myself yet but I suppose I will, going forward, listen to all the thoughts and emotions within me and take them as a guide. I will also make sure I don't fall into old addictive behavior.

[truthdevotee]

Her latest email:

But I do not want to leave the boys from now on I want to be all the time with them even if it is not helpful for managing stuff.

If you want them either we have to find the way how to communicate or it would have to be agreed through a court.

[Cat Familiar]

So many of us here have had no idea what an emotionally healthy relationship is. Here’s a good overview: https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

One thing comes through in all your threads: you never learned to trust yourself at a young age and have sought feedback and opinions from others.

Now you’re learning that some of the advice given, which was undoubtedly well meaning, was not appropriate for you.

And you’ve become aware at how much your wife is seeking to control you, not for your best interests, but for her own.

It’s an important step in individuation and maturation to listen to and trust our own internal feedback. And if you haven’t been doing that, it’s a leap of faith.

What I’ve found is that the more I trust myself, the clearer the internal voice becomes. Yes, mistakes and poor judgment still happen, but once one becomes aware of that, then better decisions can take place.

The important thing is to listen to your own internal wisdom.

[Notwendy]

She's just raising the bar isn't she? The boys are your vulnerable spot. So she wants to be with them all the time? Sure, see how long that lasts. You know her track record with that.

My suggestion would be to try to keep your cool and not react emotionally to this. In 12 steps there's the idea of "emotional sobriety" which describes this. When you feel as if you are being emotionally prodded somehow, emotionally that's the equivalent of being tempted with alcohol or drugs. Don't pick it up.

Outrageous reactions are emotionally based. What did you do that deserves this? You called your mother. This is quite the reaction.

However, she is probably capable of truly causing hurt to you and this is a diffficult one. I was emotionally vulnerable when it came to my father. When she was angry at me she did succeed at doing damage to that relaitonship. She could control me through that attachment.

Your #1 obligation to your boys is to protect them. However, if she insists on being there all the time with them and she isn't going to hurt them, then ok she can be there. I generally think natural consequences are a good thing as long as anyone isn't in serious danger from them. Let her see what "all the time" with two active young boys is really like.

You could choose to not respond to this or to not argue it and reply "I enjoy the time with the boys and I'm sure they'd love having you there too"

[Notwendy]

Just keep your boundary that you are not going to communicate your issues face to face. Surely there will be a time when the two of you are both there with the boys. A boundary that you aren't going to speak at all face to face may not be feasable. She's putting you in this bind. If you want to see the boys, she has to be there too. Then you have to be face to face.

So perhaps a better reply now that I have thought about it would be " I don't wish to discuss our issues face to face and especially in front of the boys. However, we are both their parents and if you insist on being with the boys as well, I'm sure they would love your company too. I don't wish to have discussions about our issues or argue in their presence"

Perhaps that's a boundary you can keep.

[truthdevotee]

Hi Notwendy

I just saw your reply. A few things unfolded meanwhile.

Essentially I highlighted that I'm well prepared for the legal battle and already initiated support with a professional mediator. My anger was coming up when writing the emails and I'm a way, and I'm not sure if this was healthy or appropriate (I'm open to feedback) I told her I have documented evidence of her out of control behaviour as well as my high level of support towards our family. It was basically questioning if she wants to go down this route and that I'm surprised she would be willing to let the kids go through no contact with their father, that I would never block contact with their mother.

I was at the point where any communication was extremely highly charged from her and creating hell for the boys and intense stress for me. Additionally this all occurred after letting a big load of grief come out as tears.

In essence I kind of came down hard on the lawyer thing and said this isn't a route either of us want to go down, but if she refuses to let me see my children I will fight ASAP for joint or full custody and I will be successful.

The result was her backtracking. She's talking calmly, at least for the moment. In this state of calm I said we can definitely communicate tonight. So that's the plan, and I'll see how it goes. I hit they pause button with my lawyer and informed him she had a change of tone.

I'm not sure if this will be consistent. I hope so...

Instinctively, I fought. Again I don't know if this was good. But I'm happy she is calm right now and not creating havoc. She admitted she says things without meaning to for the first time. For example, she didn't mean to throw me out of the house but she said it (and subsequently felt upset that it actually occurred). I said resolutely that this must stop, she must learn to control impulsivity either through self reflection or therapeutic help. I wrote - "
I love you and I cannot be with you when you say things out of whatever emotion you are feeling, that you do not truly believe in. You told me several times to get out, so, I did. Now you're upset about that because I'm supposed to love you in a way that would allow you to say or do whatever you're feeling in the moment?
I am sorry but that's not how marriage works for me. "

I really hope this isn't just another momentary calm and the next rage in the way. It could be though...

Tomorrow I need to let the owner of the Airbnb flat know if I'll continue to stay there until the end of march. I guess maybe I should keep the flat until there's a consistent change in the atmosphere in front of the boys.

I'll read your message again Notwendy, just wanted to quickly share this

[Notwendy]

You are in a long standing pattern with her and there's a push pull to this. I think even someone with BPD can sense when they have pushed too far. This will cause fear and the response is to pull back, even start to "push" for the relationship again. In the push pull pattern, once the pull has been successful, the pattern is likely to resume. It's odd that BPD affects the most intimate relationships- and so she feels safe enough in a way to rage at you. When she's sensed she's gone too far, she may not.

You are part of this as you do the other stepsr in the pattern. But if you don't want to be in the pattern, you need to change the steps. This isn't easy as you don't know the steps yet, but a goal is to not push, not pull but hold a calm middle ground and your boudaries.

You pushed back- with the lawyer statement. She then quieted down and you put the lawyer on hold. Do you see how you are still following the steps? You pushed, she pulled, you stopped.

It isn't wrong that you "fought back" but you didn't "fight back" with a boundary you could hold. The lawyer statement will be an empty threat now since you didn't follow through. This doesn't mean you should go through with the lawyer, especially if you don't want to. If you were determined to go through with that, it would be based on you, not her reaction. Her reaction would not change your decision.

Also don't base your actions on her words in the moment. She said get out, you got out. Now she says come back, you cancel the Airbnb?  It's good you stood up for yourself. The "this is not how marriage works for me" is a great statement as it reflects YOU, it says nothing about her. Stay focused on that.

If you keep the flat or not, make this about you. Keeping the flat allows you to have some quiet space for work. If this is enough of a reason for you then keep it. Keeping the flat to teach her a lesson or to make her change probably isn't.

Be good to yourself. I also jumped in with both feet when setting boundaries with my mother. The result was total chaos and insanity and a hugely mean response from her. But we start somewhere and it's how we learn. It may not be perfect. This is why one boundary, one issue, at a time is easier to manage. You did the one with the parents, you got a quiet place to work. Now suddenly you've added the lawyer, time with the boys all this stuff-- over one thing- calling your mother.

Stay focused on that boundary. "I know we have issues honey, but I want to speak to my parents". I have leased a place to work as I need a quiet space to work". And when she rages at you. "I don't wish to be spoken to like this" and walk away.

[truthdevotee]

You are in a long standing pattern with her and there's a push pull to this. I think even someone with BPD can sense when they have pushed too far. This will cause fear and the response is to pull back, even start to "push" for the relationship again. In the push pull pattern, once the pull has been successful, the pattern is likely to resume. It's odd that BPD affects the most intimate relationships- and so she feels safe enough in a way to rage at you. When she's sensed she's gone too far, she may not.

You are part of this as you do the other stepsr in the pattern. But if you don't want to be in the pattern, you need to change the steps. This isn't easy as you don't know the steps yet, but a goal is to not push, not pull but hold a calm middle ground and your boudaries.

Notwendy, thanks so much for helping me to understand this. Calm middle ground. Makes complete sense. I see I was operating from fear and showing "muscle." Force results in counterforce. But real power (calm middle ground) is like a field, like gravity.

You pushed back- with the lawyer statement. She then quieted down and you put the lawyer on hold. Do you see how you are still following the steps? You pushed, she pulled, you stopped.

Wow, yes, I see it. I see...

It isn't wrong that you "fought back" but you didn't "fight back" with a boundary you could hold. The lawyer statement will be an empty threat now since you didn't follow through. This doesn't mean you should go through with the lawyer, especially if you don't want to. If you were determined to go through with that, it would be based on you, not her reaction. Her reaction would not change your decision.

Wow, I see. I was trying to force her by threatening, rather than simply being true to myself.

Also don't base your actions on her words in the moment. She said get out, you got out. Now she says come back, you cancel the Airbnb?  It's good you stood up for yourself. The "this is not how marriage works for me" is a great statement as it reflects YOU, it says nothing about her. Stay focused on that.

Thanks Notwendy.

So the thing with the flat, this was an authentic act on my part. I failed to mention that my wife throwing me out of the house happened after I'd already arranged the airbnb accommodation, because I needed a warm place to take the children and a place to go when her anger got out of hand.

If you keep the flat or not, make this about you. Keeping the flat allows you to have some quiet space for work. If this is enough of a reason for you then keep it. Keeping the flat to teach her a lesson or to make her change probably isn't.

Thank you... I see

Tonight we talked and she was much calmer. I learned that she didn't see all my emails. I assumed they were the reason she calmed down. She says that it was more the pain she could feel in our son that encouraged her to shift into calm.

Tonight we were able to write a list of agreements. I'm not sure how fruitful it will be but it felt more positive.

On the other hand, I now see I'm getting enmeshed with her on the Airbnb thing. I need to make a strong decision tomorrow whether to keep it or not. The flat is beautiful, the location is a little too far. She believes my company should pay for it, i guess they won't do that. Yeah, although we had a more connected and calm chat and she showed tears vulnerably, I see I'm more pulled in and thinking through her eyes as a result...

Be good to yourself. I also jumped in with both feet when setting boundaries with my mother. The result was total chaos and insanity and a hugely mean response from her. But we start somewhere and it's how we learn. It may not be perfect. This is why one boundary, one issue, at a time is easier to manage. You did the one with the parents, you got a quiet place to work. Now suddenly you've added the lawyer, time with the boys all this stuff-- over one thing- calling your mother.

Stay focused on that boundary. "I know we have issues honey, but I want to speak to my parents". I have leased a place to work as I need a quiet space to work". And when she rages at you. "I don't wish to be spoken to like this" and walk away.

Thank you..
Wow its tough. Yeah... Moving too fast.
I get the feeling things will stay largely the same. I notice within myself more fear of keeping the flat and spending the money until the end of the month, ironically because we "connected."
I feel sad for the pain of my older son. He feels it.
I used the lawyer to control her response and to threaten in order to force change. That's not good... But you're right, it's like learning a new skill.
The flat is so perfect for work. I may need to keep it and go through the anger she'll have about that.

I see how I've played into the pattern because I feel weaker rather than stronger right now. Strong in the sense of making authentic decisions and not trying to control her.