Father + sister

[MaxRoach]

My story is a sister who is highly BPD and a father who I’ve realized is slightly BPD (also has OCD).

I have another thread with a lot of details. But top line is that I’ve been trying to stay away from my sister for the past 2 years after a lot of abuse. That has made my dad uncomfortable who is blinded by my sister and has also abused me emotionally several times in the last 2 years (mostly for my sister but also other reasons).

He’s currently visiting and staying with my sister (we live in the same city). While I’ve stayed away from my sister largely, I’ve started going since he’s come. I’ve started experiencing much of the same abuse I used to and it comes as a combination. For example, my sister is upset that I bring my own food to her house (due to health reasons), don’t take food home that she gives me, and that I don’t accompany her on holidays with her husbands family. My dad in his own brings these things up, telling me that I am rigid and I should do things to please my sister.

Things escalated today when I told my dad to stop pressurising me to eat at my sisters. Otherwise I would not come. My sister then screamed at me over the phone and told me that I humiliate her by not going on her holidays etc. I said I didn’t want to discuss but got a barrage of messages from her. She was flipping between “wanting to discuss our relationship” and arguing and accusing me of lies. My dad would interject simply to tell me to stop fighting with my sister cos she’s crying. It was a horrible day where I felt that I got bashed for simply not agreeing to take fruit from my sisters house.

I’m feeling helpless.

With my sister, I want to have nothing to do with her. She wants us to talk through the issues. Which is pointless cos she’ll just argue and defend and never accept the position that I have my own life.

With my dad, I don’t know what to do. When I went to visit him in December, he fought with me in a very similar manner to my sis (getting upset that I had work on weekdays). I reached a point where I just ignored him and didn’t want to do anything with him. Interestingly the next month after that was when we was most well behaved and didn’t bring up my sister (usually he’s always asking if I’m staying in touch with her). But the relationship fell into its old patterns where the nicer I am to him,  the more he abuses me.

I’m just tired. Handling them together is too much. My sister will always want to control my life. And my father makes it very hard for me to draw boundaries and sees me as the villain. It is beyond his worldview that me and my sister do not get along. And he is blind towards my sister and only sees me as the issue. Trying to explain or justify is pointless.

What do I do while he’s here and how do I get a permanent solution? I cannot live life like this.

[pursuingJoy]

Family dynamics can be so frustrating and difficult to deal with. I know this is draining. It's definitely not something you can or should sustain long-term. We're happy to brainstorm with you.

You're ready to set a no-contact limit with your sister, but you want to sustain a relationship with your dad, provided he respects you. Is that accurate?

Is there another way to connect with your dad that doesn't involve your sister? Email? Virtual facetime? One on one meetings? Have you considered asking him not to mention your sister? I'm certain he feels responsible to mend the relationship and rescue her when she's in pain, but it is completely ok for you to express your needs and ask him to respect what you're asking.

In my experience, when two people who disrespect me are so tightly bound, I first set boundaries, and then I make sure to find joy in my life. It is so critical to find supportive friends, do things that make me laugh or just feel good, and take care of myself emotionally and physically. It doesn't take the pain away, but sometimes it gives me a little bit of energy I can use to see clearly and know how to respond the next time they throw a curve ball.

As you think about your options, keep in mind that they don't have to be permanent. Think about the next few months - what do you need to feel healthy and whole? How much can you give right now? How are you finding support?

Hang in there.

pj

[P.F.Change]

  Hi, MaxRoach. Welcome to BPDFamily.

It's definitely exhausting having even one family member with BPD. I am sorry you are feeling helpless. Often other family members aren't very experienced honoring boundaries because of Enmeshment and Co-Dependence, so when one person starts trying to take care of themselves, it disrupts the status quo. They may respond using Fear, Obligation, and Guilt in an attempt to restore the (im)balance they are used to.

I think it's good that you're already aware it doesn't help you to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain) your decisions and needs. We often have to learn to be ok with taking care of ourselves even though our family members are unlikely to ever understand or accept our choices.

Lots of great questions already from pursuingJoy, and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on those. How did things end up? Is your father still visiting?

[LetsGetBetter]

First of all, you are 100% valid in wanting to eat your own food for health reasons, not go on holidays, work on the weekdays, etc. I like pursuingjoy's comment about setting boundaries. If your father is only slightly BPD and doesn't completely flip out, then maybe you could try being very clear to him about your boundaries (e.g., no talking about your sister), clarifying what the consequences are when he violates those boundaries (maybe the conversation is immediately over), and actually going through with those consequences. I also like the idea of finding other ways to interact with your dad that don't have to involve your sister. Hope it goes well and all the best with it!

[Methuen]

I’ve started experiencing much of the same abuse I used to and it comes as a combination. For example, my sister is upset that I bring my own food to her house (due to health reasons), don’t take food home that she gives me, and that I don’t accompany her on holidays with her husbands family. My dad in his own brings these things up, telling me that I am rigid and I should do things to please my sister.

Oh my goodness.  These sound like classic BPD behaviors.  By bringing your own food to her house, she would see this as a slight against her food and herself (which would upset her), rather than you needing to look after your health issues.  It also sounds like she doesn't want you to be a person independent from her, so by not accompanying her on holidays with her husband's family, she would feel that you're not meeting her needs.  She probably can't see that you are an independent person with needs of your own.  BPD's don't score well on the empathy scale.

Things escalated today when I told my dad to stop pressurising me to eat at my sisters. Otherwise I would not come. My sister then screamed at me over the phone and told me that I humiliate her by not going on her holidays etc. I said I didn’t want to discuss but got a barrage of messages from her. She was flipping between “wanting to discuss our relationship” and arguing and accusing me of lies. My dad would interject simply to tell me to stop fighting with my sister cos she’s crying. It was a horrible day where I felt that I got bashed for simply not agreeing to take fruit from my sisters house.  I’m feeling helpless.

MaxRoach, you are not alone.  We've all been there.  It can get better.  Right now you sound worn down completely.  In my experience, the only thing to do is to take care of yourself first.  That might mean creating some distance between yourself and your father/sister for a while.  This will give your amygdala (fight or flight center of the brain-> anxiety) a chance to calm down.  Be especially kind to yourself, whatever that looks like for you.  It may take a few days, or a few weeks, or even longer, to feel better. 

Once you are feeling better, you could try a different approach.  For example, by "telling your dad to stop pressuring you, or you will not go to your sister's house", you are giving him an ultimatum.  BPD's aren't going to respond well to ultimatum's, because they feel threatened, and invalidated.  Instead, you could try a SET response.  I'm not an expert, but something like
"S" (support) Your food always looks so good sis, and I know it makes you happy when people enjoy eating it.
"E" (empathy) It must be disappointing after preparing the food, if somebody brings their own to your house to eat.
"T" (truth) I bring my own food everywhere I go because...(you fill in the blank). 
Only proceed to E if S has been successful.  Only proceed to T if E has been successful.  If either S or E has been unsuccessful, do not proceed to T.  Wait for a calmer time to try again.

Interestingly the next month after that was when we was most well behaved and didn’t bring up my sister (usually he’s always asking if I’m staying in touch with her). But the relationship fell into its old patterns where the nicer I am to him,  the more he abuses me.

This is exactly how it is with my mom.  From my reading, this also fits the borderline profile.  I manage my relationship with my mom, by keeping an emotional distance.  For example, I have kind of detached from her on an emotional level, but I still see her/talk to her several times a week (she is elderly and living independently, but can't manage without assistance).  We talk about her clothes, the weather, curling (which she likes to watch), and other neutral topics.  I stay away from anything that could potentially result in conflict.  It feels superficial, but it's also very safe. Safe is good.

[zachira]

Right now you are feeling helpless. Just know that many of us who have disordered family members have felt helpless at times. You will get to a point where you will feel grounded and comfortable with the healthier boundaries you set with your challenging family members most of the time.

[MaxRoach]

Hi,

I am back here, and apologies for never responding to this thread. It was an extremely difficult time. There have been some developments in the past few years:

I got married to my girlfriend. Just before that, I did decide to reach out to my sister and break the nc. Since my marriage, things have been a lot better. I have rarely gotten into arguments with my father and sister, even though my father will keep suggesting that I spend more time with my sister who is in the same city. I am extremely happy in my life with my wife.

This changed last week, when things escalated again during my dads visit for a business deal. I want to laugh but the patterns were very similar to what I posted here.

The first 2 days were peaceful and we had a good time. I had told my dad to keep Friday and Saturday free since I was busy during the week and taking a 20 hour flight on Sunday for work. Despite this, my sister organised a dinner with her in laws and extended family. I told my dad that I would not attend (admittedly I said it rudely).

After the first 2 days, it got ugly. My dad got upset, started acting cold, started telling me I do not have time for him as I was going to work, created a new issue out of me not skipping work to attend his business deals. I think this stemmed from me saying no to my sisters in laws dinner. The last day of his trip, he refused to meet me for dinner till I went to my sisters house (where he was staying). I started JADEing which riled him even more. So I went to the house.

There my sister started screaming and had a massive episode. I was called names and she also started attacking me and my wife as a couple (e.g., both of you think you’re better than me and my husband). Went on for an hour while I sat in silence, and my dad kept looking at me as if I had to do something to fix this. I listened, apologised, said I will discuss this when I am back from my trip. But I felt emotionally abused and to be honest, this really took out my focus during my business trip too. I am sure this was also done to disturb my trip (my dad had said something like, you might think you’re a chairman but you still need to take out time for your father).

Since I’ve come back, he’s been acting extremely cold since he’s return to his home city. I call him and it’s basically me talking. Quite superficial. I think he’s expecting me to make the first move to make amends with my sister. There’s also my wife’s sisters wedding in his home city later in the month so I feel he’s also going to cause trouble for that.

I would appreciate some help in what to do. I’m also in a slightly different place compared to a few years back.

- My wife is witness to what’s happening and is very supportive.
- We are financially independent now so do not really need anything from parents.
- I no longer feel guilty about my behaviour. I recognise I could be more empathetic (e.g., not snapped when the in law dinner was proposed) and I feel stupid about JADEIng cos that always fuels it. But there’s certainly less guilt.
- I do have anger though. I expected my dad to say something about my sister dragging my family into her argument. But I understand that this is an unfair expectation of someone with BPD (my dad also appears to have some version of it).
- I am also a bit spritual now (sounds silly right). I recently finished War and Peace, which has made me think about God a lot. There was one character who decided to pay off his wife’s debts after her death even though she cheated on him. Because he felt that was right to do by God.
- My biggest fear is dragging my wife and future kids into this.

An action like that really inspires me. Right now, what feels right is not to do NC though my ego really wants to with my sis and dad (they need me more than I need the,). Coming on this forum has also helped because I have multiple threads about both of them and the pattern is really evident to me now. I also see that the incidences have really reduce so last week may be a one off.

So where do I go? My dad wants me to take an action, should I? Do I just see this as a one off and he’ll cool down. Is there something else I can do?

[Mommydoc]

MaxRoach, your post resonates deeply. I initially did not realize it spanned 3 years time. It speaks to the enduring challenge of navigating relationships with BPD family members, despite our own personal growth and evolution. While we can equip ourselves with tools for self-management, it's crucial to accept that these tools may not alter the dynamics with our BPD family members.

Your description of familial dynamics mirrors my own experiences. My sister, like yours, has said many of the same things to me. Although my late father didn't have BPD, he contributed to the dynamic by avoiding setting boundaries and seeking superficial harmony. It's likely neither of my parents recognized my sister's condition; they only saw the conflict and her difficult personality.

Your commitment to personal growth, career, and family is commendable. Congratulations on your marriage! Your independence may challenge your sister and father, who may fear abandonment and cling to the drama triangle.

Acknowledging and processing anger is crucial for self-protection. Before learning about BPD, I suppressed my anger, perpetuating the cycle. It's essential to redirect anger into empowering actions. Your self awareness related to your anger, can help you identify the appropriate actions.

Your father's validation may be an unrealistic hope given his enmeshment with your sister. Exploring a separate relationship with him, devoid of sisterly issues, could be beneficial. Consider maintaining low “superficial” contact with your sister while prioritizing your well-being and  exploring an independent relationship with your father?

There are numerous resources available on the forum, and utilizing them in interactions with your father could foster healthier dynamics. Just don’t expect him to change.  Trust your journey and focus on your own growth and happiness. You are absolutely on the right track. 

[Notwendy]

When there is a family member with a disorder, the other family members take on certain roles (even if they aren't disordered themselves or don't have the same disorder) to help create a certain "balance" within the family. The roles are dysfunctional but serve a purpose within that family. When one person changes their "role" (could be an emotionally healthy change- like having boundaries)- the family becomes out of balance and the family members feel discomfort.

The first response is to get the family member to resume their role. If that doesn't work, they may get angry and even reject that family member and then reconfigure themselves into a sort of balance.

My father didn't have BPD but I recognize his behaviors as being co-dependent. One can be co-dependent and not have BPD but pwBPD also have some co-dependent behaviors. It may appear that your father might have BPD but he also could be co-dependent and enmeshed.

Karpman triangle dynamics also helped to explain the family roles. Dad was the one who kept the peace, "rescued" BPD mother. So, in a situation like yours where you said no to your sister's dinner invitation and she was upset- if I said no to BPD mother and she got upset, Dad would take her side and attempt to get me to agree.

Congratulations on your marriage and becoming independent. You are the family member who has stepped out of your role and is creating a family life of your own. You have turned your focus to your marriage and have boundaries with your sister. Instead of appeasing her, you said no to the dinner.

While all of this is positive for your growth and your family- it's not following the unspoken "family rule". Our "family rule" has been to appease BPD mother. And if mother is upset- this affects Dad too and he will step in to enforce this.

This takes us by surprise because we expect parents to understand that to grow up, be independent and have our own relationships is an aspect of our own maturing. Parents who see their role as supporting their children's needs understand this. Parents who have personality disorder see their children's purpose as meeting their needs.

Your father is uncomfortable because of the change in family dynamics. My best advice is to not react and let this blow over. I did react to some of this as I didn't understand these dynamics as well then and it only added to the family drama. I also didn't go NC with my BPD mother but I have a less emotional relationship- NC - with her.

You are doing exactly what a parent hopes for. My children are young adults and have "left the nest" to their own independent lives. This is what we want for our children. Yes, we have feelings about this- a lot of pride and happiness for them and also some wistful sadness that our children have "left the nest" and also looking forward to things we can do for ourselves. Whatever feelings I may have about it- that is my responsibility. I do hope they are kind and want to visit me at times but it's not their job to caretake my emotions.

Your responsibility is to your family- your wife and any future children. It's not the grandchild's role to caretake an adult's emotions either.

There's a subtle "walking the line" between treating your sister with decency and being expected to caretake her feelings.

[Notwendy]

I meant to say « LC » with my mother which isn’t just about frequency of contact. It includes less emotional or personal content too. We could talk for 30 minutes about current events or a book she read- but that’s different from 30 minutes of circular argument.

[MaxRoach]

Hi, thank you so much for the responses. I feel really down and wasn’t able to read them before the next showdown.

I called my dad and instead of the Cold War, he started complaining again:

“You did not invite me to stay in the house, I feel unwelcome.” (even though I did ask him)

“If I had an accident, I would be too scared to come to the house.” (my sister also tells my dad that she is scared of me”

“Your wife also did not invite me.” (Again, this is something my sister has started doing of complaining about my wife. Also, it’s not factually true, my wife has invited him multiple times.(

I had requested my mom to protect my wife since she always complained that my dad never protected her in front of the in laws.

Only person I can confide to is my wife, but now I feel telling her is making her feel bad also about this - that both of us have not made my dad feel welcome. I do not want her to get dragged into this at all.

I tried to not lose my cool, apologise several times, tried to use SET but I eventually ended up trying to justify (“but dad, I DID ask you” and “my wife has asked you 10 times!”).

Can someone please provide guidance? I’m completely lost and overwhelmed

[Methuen]

There my sister started screaming and had a massive episode. I was called names and she also started attacking me and my wife as a couple (e.g., both of you think you’re better than me and my husband). Went on for an hour while I sat in silence, and my dad kept looking at me as if I had to do something to fix this. I listened, apologised, said I will discuss this when I am back from my trip.

An observation:  you could try building a boundary around your safety. You mention their ganging up on you went on for an hour.  Early on when it started, you could try saying something like “ if the two of you are going to gang up on me to complain and criticize, I will have to leave to get ready for my business trip”. Of course they won’t stop, but then you leave, because you have communicated your boundary. Another thing I noticed is that you said you apologized and would discuss it when you got back from your business trip.

This dynamic that is happening is all about power.  I’m not clear on what you apologized for after they pummeled you for an hour.  Why did you apologize?

Somewhere on this website it says to “not validate the invalid”.  So for example, don’t apologize for bringing your own food for health reasons.  Instead, you could say something like: “Your food looks so good! I wish I could try some but my _________ (eg gluten intolerance) is the reason I bring my own food everywhere I go. Thanks for understanding that. 

A long time ago, I was where you were at and I used to try to have conversations with my ubpd mother when she was angry and emotional.. Now, there is no way I would subject myself to that abuse for an hour.  Instead, if I am ineffective at calming her emotions through communication skills, I would excuse myself and leave, and say I’ll come back when everyone is feeling better.


I believe in taking away the oxygen to kill the fire in the early stages.  For next time (moving forward), perhaps excusing yourself earlier ( before the toxicity gets out of hand) could result in retaining better focus on your business trip?

It’s also taking back your power and restoring some balance back to the dynamic.  Your thoughts?

quote author=MaxRoach link=topic=348550.msg13208743#msg13208743 date=1707650695]

- Right now, what feels right is not to do NC though my ego really wants to with my sis and dad (they need me more than I need the,). Coming on this forum has also helped because I have multiple threads about both of them and the pattern is really evident to me now. I also see that the incidences have really reduce so last week may be a one off.
 [/quote] It’s never a one off max roach.  It’s a personality disorder.  There could be one-offs for the rest of your life. There is a push-pull pattern that sucks a lot of us back in with these complicated family dynamics.  Building better boundaries is a good place to start.  Remembering that your boundaries are for your safety (and your partner) but they are NOT rules for your family members, will be helpful.

Congratulations on your marriage!  It’s wonderful you have this positive relationship to focus your energy on and enjoy, rather than getting drawn in to family drama where misery loves company. It sounds like you have a wonderful partner.  That’s amazing! Again- congratulations!

[MaxRoach]

This dynamic that is happening is all about power.  I’m not clear on what you apologized for after they pummeled you for an hour.  Why did you apologize?

I really don't know?! I feel like I was using SET:

BPD - You did X, Y, Z which made me feel lonely.

Support - I am sorry you felt that way.
Empathy - I know X, Y is important to you.
Truth - But I did not do X, Y.

I'm lost for how to deal with completely false accusations. Does me saying - I did not do this - constituting JADEing?

Please help.

[Notwendy]

The idea behind not discussing a false accusation is to not give it emotional fuel.

That fuels the drama.

If something isn't true, there's no need to defend it. A false accusation can be an "invitation" into an emotional circular argument- a way for the pwBPD to release their uncomfortable emotions.

If someone accused you of being a pink elephant - would you try to convince them that you aren't one? No- because you are certain you are not one. It's not true. Then saying you are an elephant won't make it true. But to them, if they feel it- they may believe it's true but rather than defend yourself, you'd probably think they were imagining it.

Another option besides "SET" is to just not react emotionally- let it be. If your sister wants to think you did something- her thinking doesn't make it true. She can think it though- it's her thoughts. We can't control what someone else thinks. Just use the "pink elephant" example as a substitute for what she says when considering if you want to react.

"Sis, I am sorry you feel that way. I need to get off the phone now and get back to work". Call you later!" and then get off the phone. 

[livednlearned]

Sometimes it takes time to understand the dynamics well enough -- including your own reactions to their actions -- before feeling like you can create enough safety for yourself to be in their lives. And once you start using different skills and strengthening those muscles, there will be a period of experimentation where you might be surprised at their ability to tolerate your boundaries. The hard part, I find, is that the effort to have those boundaries is near constant. They haven't changed --> you have. So at any moment the old stuff can and will come back, and you'll have to look at what was going on with you in that moment and take notes to help with the next encounter.

My father and brother are almost identical to how you describe your father and sister.

Like Notwendy mentioned, in families like ours there are often rigid roles. Sometimes we have to take a step back to build up the strength needed to understand those roles and break some of the patterns. It will likely get a bit worse before it gets better as you set boundaries and change the way you engage with them.

What helped me is to think through really carefully how I felt around them, in my body, especially before things went sideways, which, if I spend enough time with them, is inevitable. If you grew up in an emotionally unsafe home with an emotionally immature parent, you may miss a lot of signs that your body is trying to communicate. Or if you do feel them, you ignore them.

Understanding when you're starting to trigger or feel the amygdala kick in is important if you want to exit the storm before it even starts.

I went no contact with my family at a time I simply didn't have the bandwidth to experience abuse -- I was going through a high-conflict divorce with someone who had BPD and couldn't manage 3 angry men in my life. I never intended that period of no contact to have an effect -- I was simply trying to figure out how to keep myself safe. When I began interacting with my family again, they seemed to respect me more than they ever had. I think it was such a shock that I put myself first, a concept totally foreign to them.

The respect they have is very, very fragile and has little to no depth. It's more like a recognition that being part of the family is not more important than being treated respectfully. I don't use it that way, it's just something that my family now understands -- I have limits to the abuse I will take.

It's also good to look closely at your own reactions like you've been doing. Once you get some equilibrium in the relationship and see how much agency you have, it might not feel so challenging to take the fruit or food home or whatever.

Your relationships with them might not ever feel close or relaxed or fully supportive (thankfully your wife is able to be that person for you  ) but you can be the emotional leader to an extent, helping them avoid the kinds of interactions that make you want to run in the other direction.

My relationship with my father is still quite strained. If I'm not careful about structuring our interactions carefully I tend to get muscle spasms or migraines while visiting them   I only interact with my sibling when we're in a public environment for dinner or some other type of public event. Some of the issues with family can go so deep it feels almost cellular. I simply don't have the ability with my sibling to be low contact without paying a price. I do have the ability to determine how much I'm willing to pay though.

If your interactions with your family feel like you're at an 11 on a 10 point scale, try using the skills with other people to get some practice. There are some moving parts that need to come together but somehow they do, and the upside is that these things will go a long way in other relationships.

[MaxRoach]

Thank you so much for the responses. I agree that I need to understand the dynamics well enough. This is really hard for me because I am so deep into playing my roles.

I discussed my reactions with my wife. She questioned why I did not cut the phone or simply say "I don't agree with this so I will not get into a discussion." And really, the answer was that I am so deep into my role of victim in this situation. In some ways, hearing them attack and falsely accuse validates my role as victim and their role as the perpetrators. And I cannot cut the phone because a) I feel the need to defend myself and prove myself to be a "good son", b) I get worried about how they'll react even more if I cut.

The awareness helps but I still helpless as this has been going on for so long (10+ years). A friend of mine told me to simply tell them to accept their son as he is, or that I simply walk out. And that threat will put them in their place.

I at least wanted a few days break so I have told all three of them that I need a few days off. So I don't respond or pick up their calls. After a day's break, each of them has responded differently.

My mom tells me she understands and loves me unconditionally (which is not how she has behaved)
My father tells me he loves me too, but when I messaged I need a break, he messaged saying that families need to be able to talk about their feelings and move on (not in the way he does!)
My sister is upset since we were supposed to meet this week to start talking out differences so she told "If you don't want to solve, I am fine, I am tired of you"

I sense more manipulation and want to try really hard to ground myself.

[Notwendy]

While I understand how you feel and know it isn't your fault that your family members behave like they do, I am going to urge you to do something a counselor advised me to do:

Get out of "victim" thinking. I know this doesn't make sense as they are the ones with the issues but there is a reason for this advice.

Victims are powerless. They have no choices. Some people are true victims, like children- they have no choices. Most adults ( unless being attacked and helpless) have choices. These are difficult choices but you have choices,.

PwBPD are in "victim" position in their thinking. Victim is a dysfunctional role on the Karpman triangle. If you approach in victim position, this won't be effective with them.

This "I love you" from your family and "families need to work things out" - they may actually believe this but this also is something that feels like FOG for you. I do not suggest falling into the "let's talk out our differences"- I don't think that works well- at least I haven't seen it work well.

You have been acting in your "role" with them and it's habitual for you. It feels "normal" to you as it's all you have known to do. It took counseling and work on codependency (12 step groups) to be able to think of ways to behave differently, while still according to my values. I don't want to be hurtful, but if they choose to feel hurt over boundaries- that is their choice.

To change our behaviors takes work. Don't be hard on yourself. I hope that you have a counselor working with you. You may also want to consider 12 step groups. The dynamics with disordered family members are similar to families where a member is addicted to alcohol. They can help.

[MaxRoach]

Hi Wendy,

I completely agree. My first instinct when they asked me was to respond, "You have hurt me so much." But I see that is victim thinking. Even now, as I'm trying to take a break, I feel anxious that I am upsetting them.

I also agree that "talking it out" will not help either. It hasn't for a decade so why will it now?

But what is my next step? How do I start the conversation back? Do I? Do I say love you too when I get love yous?

My worry is I go back, pretend nothing happened, but then get back to this role when things are triggered.

[livednlearned]

"talking it out" will not help either. It hasn't for a decade so why will it now?

But what is my next step? How do I start the conversation back? Do I? Do I say love you too when I get love yous?

My worry is I go back, pretend nothing happened, but then get back to this role when things are triggered.

It may feel urgent to get this right immediately because you're someone who wants to feel and act with integrity. Understandable! You're changing 10+ years of habits and putting pressure on yourself to stick the landing -- it's a lot.

I would let them initiate the conversation only to allow some time for you nervous system to return to baseline.

I love you's -- I handle this by using emojis. For some reason they're easier for me to send to the complex people in my life. With my parents, I can say it now -- it took a while. For years, I would say "yeah" and quickly change the topic. Although my family wasn't focused on accounting in this way so I was able to get by.

Back when I was first figuring out how to interact with my family, my therapist encouraged me to think of myself as an anthropologist studying this particular group. That allowe for distance and curiosity while puzzling together how the family functions in different circumstances. Most importantly, I began to see how I went from being an observer to being the target.  

I would start with what feels most manageable. Is it 1:1 with your family members? Do things seem to escalate when there are two or more? Which dynamic is the most likely to end badly? Is calling or texting or visiting in person the same or is one harder than the other?

How does your family communicate with you -- do you get long intense complex paragraphs of texts, and are then expected to respond immediately? What happens when you find yourself in a JADE situation (these are likely triggers for you)?

What are things you've tried in the past that worked to create safety (for you) or quiet (from them)?

Do they prefer to go silent and then act like nothing has happened? Are there tender cycles or periods of emotional regulation where you feel some of them can be reasonable?

The flooding and overwhelm you feel suggests the need to really simplify here.

For me, I found a few skills that worked because they either bought me time or were relatively easy to reach for (and remember) when I started to feel a surge of emotion or confusion.

It's also not a bad idea to start a mindfulness practice so you know what baseline feels like and can get there even when things begin to feel chaotic. My mindfulness practice felt almost like combat training when my uBPD stepdaughter moved in with us. She had no boundaries and that triggered family-of-origin feelings, which made everything feel so much more catastrophic, at least in my nervous system. I don't live with her anymore, but when I feel triggered I return to the practice (mine involves a mantra I repeat) in the moment.

[Mommydoc]

I like Livednlearned’s suggestion to let them reach out.  They will. Use the pause in communication, if there is one, to self reflect on your own feelings.  Sometimes, I notice, when there is a pause in communication after a contentious conversation, when my sibling reaches out afterwards, it is unrelated and neutral, which is usually easier to respond to.  Letting the most recent episode go, is often easier than re-igniting the conflict. 

In terms of the “I love you’s”, you just have to be genuine.  I love my sibling wBPD and though I don’t frequently express it directly to her, I am pretty comfortable expressing it, when it feels authentic.   I have been trying to limit my communication to texting recently, and emoticons, also allow you to acknowledge them, without fully engaging. 

From my experience, it never works to try to get them to understand how much they have hurt us.  It just isn’t in their DNA to hear that, seek to understand, or validate anyone’s feelings other than their own.   It is better to express and work through your hurt, with a trusted friend or family member, or even better a therapist.  ( and here of course!)

Overall, the idea is not to bury your feelings, but rather to process them in a healthy way, which usually means not processing them with the person with BPD.  Learning to diffuse them, being OK with not JADEing, and learning to validate them authentically, while practicing self compassion and exploring our own feelings and validating and supporting our own personal needs, is the path we can strive for.   

[MaxRoach]

Thank you so much for the listening space and advice. It's a few weeks on and things have started settling down for me (at least a bit).

I really appreciated the advice to let me nervous system settle down and start observing them as anthropologists.

Over the last few weeks, I broke the silence and things got back to baseline, except a few episodes:

• My mom started complaining that I am too busy for after I didn't call her for a day. I told her to talk to me once she was over her bad mood. This helped and I thought I did well.
  

My wife's sister had a wedding in the same city as my parents. My parents were invited but it appeared to me that my dad wanted a special invite ("Dad, you please have to come"). He also decided to organize a lunch with his family the day the wedding festivities were starting. He insisted I came and my wife obviously couldn't 'cos she had to be with her family. This upset him. He also refused to come for the first event, and for the second, said I'm only coming for 10 mins. I let him do as he pleases, though he ended up staying for longer obviously.[/li]
[/list]

For both, I tried really hard to simply ignore the anxiety that comes up when they great these episodes of guilt and obligation. During the wedding, it was easier as there were other important things to take care off and I was surprised by how quickly I forgot about them and simply enjoyed the wedding.

It was remarkable for me. For the 2-3 weeks proceeding the wedding, I felt sapped of energy and was dreading going home. The 2 days I stayed at home, I had migraines. But the moment I moved to my wife's sisters house, my energy came back. After the wedding, my energy was the highest, despite no sleep and tons of alcohol over 3 days

I agree with the responses that change will be slow and I can't get it right immediately. Despite things cooling down, I know the pattern will repeat. I am keen to change this in three steps:

• First, I want to take responsibility for my reactions and stop being so scared of them and their episodes. Stop playing victim. Their episodes take weeks off my life and I get into solving mode. Instead, I want to just observe my discomfort but not give in or not let them worry me or impact what's in front of me.
  
• After that, I can think about forgiving them. Once I know they do not control my days and moods, I can find the love and peace to forgive all these years of pain
• Finally, I figure out how I want to engage with them long-term. What will be my boundaries be and what is their role in my life

I do have two concerns and I would appreciate comments on that.

First, how do I process my feelings towards them without burying them? I agree that I cannot do it with my family as that's unhealthy and not in their DNA. How do I validate them authentically? I have been diagnosed with psychosomatic pain which is completely related to burying feelings of angers towards them. What is an alternative?

Second, how do I protect and engage my wife on this issue? She noticed how visibly upset my dad was during the wedding and completely ignored her. He also kept forcing her to come for his family lunch by making my mom call her. When she said she couldn't due to the wedding, he gave her some sarcastic comments. I think she was hurt by this too. I feel a tension in me. I want to protect her but part of me also gets bothered when she complains about him. What's the way forward?

[livednlearned]

how do I process my feelings towards them without burying them? I agree that I cannot do it with my family as that's unhealthy and not in their DNA. How do I validate them authentically? I have been diagnosed with psychosomatic pain which is completely related to burying feelings of angers towards them. What is an alternative?

I wonder if you would find somatic experiencing therapy helpful?

It's a combination of talk therapy with remarkable attention (at least this was my experience) paid to how your body responds physically during the session.

Others may have a different perspective than mine but I don't believe validation works unless it's authentic. So, for you, an alternative (or precursor?) might mean creating a validating environment, if you feel comfortable doing that. Meaning, you validate them during calm periods when your own emotions are more or less at baseline, and you create an environment of validation.

For example, if my father complained "some bozo had more than 15 items in the express lane" my mother would snap back "well don't go to that supermarket if you hate it so much." If I were there, and my intent was to create a validating environment, I might reflect on how I've felt in a similar situation -- it's irritating when someone has a full basket and you have two items in the express lane. If you can get there and it feels real, offer it up "ugh, that would drive me nuts, I totally get it."

It's much harder to validate how someone feels when the topic is you but maybe there are opportunities where you aren't in the hot seat and you're not the target? It took me a while, I'll be honest. I have quite a hard time doing this with my mother, although I am better at it when others are around.  

I also notice with my family that validating questions works pretty well. They use the opportunity to discharge emotions more broadly, rather than at me, if that makes sense. I felt weird at first doing this but when it comes to topics that are neutral territory if I say "huh" or "wow" or "oh?" or "then what?" they'll kind of bypass me as a target even though I'm in the conversation. In the past, if they were upset about the 3 hour ferry line from 10 years ago on a trip I wasn't present for, I would somehow end up the focus of their fury.

It will probably take a little bit of fine-tuning and experimentation to see how your family responds to small changes, what works and doesn't work. The book "You Don't Have to Make Everything All Better" by the Lundstroms really helped me figure out how to validate them at a time I was really struggling to communicate and hold space for myself.

Second, how do I protect and engage my wife on this issue? She noticed how visibly upset my dad was during the wedding and completely ignored her. He also kept forcing her to come for his family lunch by making my mom call her. When she said she couldn't due to the wedding, he gave her some sarcastic comments. I think she was hurt by this too. I feel a tension in me. I want to protect her but part of me also gets bothered when she complains about him. What's the way forward?

Your wife seems so supportive of you, I wonder if she would be willing to learn about karpman drama triangles (based on Family Systems Theory's triangles).

Ideally, you and your wife strengthen your relationship without triangulating with your father when he's behaving like that. Maybe learning about the karpman drama triangle and seeing how it applies might give you both a frame of reference for what's happening without getting dragged into more conflict.