Deep conversations

[Depression = 72% of members]

My pwBPD often says I don't want to have deep conversations, I lack empathy, compassion, love, care, etc. Bit by bit I've been growing in the awareness that this isn't a problem on my side. It appears that my pwBPD finds it very uncomfortable that I don't share her viewpoints, feelings, perceptions, etc. No matter how many hours I sit with her and use empathic reflective listening techniques, she is always dissatisfied and casts blame and says it's because I don't respect her. The main topic of discussion where this occurs is in relation to my FOO.

I'm at the point now where it seems best that I set a boundary saying that I no longer wish to talk about my FOO (or hers, as she often wants to talk about them too) at any time.


I have a thread of guilt and obligation still bothering me though, which I wanted to ask about. I've carried the belief over the years that I'm obligated to listen to my wife's worries, fears, complaints, etc. It seems generally true that a husband and wife, in order to have a happy and healthy relationship, would support each other to some extent emotionally and psychologically. It seems that doing so would be a form of "emotional intimacy." However, I sense that it's precisely this general viewpoint I have that has simultaneously controlled me. As soon as my wife says I'm XYZ, I feel guilty and I re-double my efforts to listen, no matter how damaging, illogical, etc. it all is. And as I learn about boundaries, it seems I'm becoming more sensitive; perhaps it's me listening more to my emotions as guides - I feel drawn now to put a stop to all of this communication that will never go anywhere because her (unconscious) end goal is something I can't do - take on her perception as if it were my own, and act accordingly. I sense if I keep being willing to discuss these topics with her, I will block her from finding other options - therapy, counselling, etc.

Am I on the right track, or does it seem too extreme to put a stop to all conversations by putting a stop to my own engagement in them? One positive will be, if we stop talking about these things, we can have more time to do things that are FUN and that actually bring us closer together rather than deeper into the never-ending conflict that she says she wants to "resolve." The FOG I still have is that I am still a bit controlled by my own fear of not being the supportive husband that my superego tells me to be.

I have already communicated the above to a certain extent to my pwBPD, but not with resolute conviction yet... I get the sense that the more I have conviction, the more she will actually become attracted to seeking professional help.

I suppose my question, in short, is, as her husband have I been incorrect in my presumption that I'm supposed to act like her therapist?

[truthdevotee]

My pwBPD often says I don't want to have deep conversations, I lack empathy, compassion, love, care, etc. Bit by bit I've been growing in the awareness that this isn't a problem on my side. It appears that my pwBPD finds it very uncomfortable that I don't share her viewpoints, feelings, perceptions, etc. No matter how many hours I sit with her and use empathic reflective listening techniques, she is always dissatisfied and casts blame and says it's because I don't respect her. The main topic of discussion where this occurs is in relation to my FOO.

I'm at the point now where it seems best that I set a boundary saying that I no longer wish to talk about my FOO (or hers, as she often wants to talk about them too) at any time.


I have a thread of guilt and obligation still bothering me though, which I wanted to ask about. I've carried the belief over the years that I'm obligated to listen to my wife's worries, fears, complaints, etc. It seems generally true that a husband and wife, in order to have a happy and healthy relationship, would support each other to some extent emotionally and psychologically. It seems that doing so would be a form of "emotional intimacy." However, I sense that it's precisely this general viewpoint I have that has simultaneously controlled me. As soon as my wife says I'm XYZ, I feel guilty and I re-double my efforts to listen, no matter how damaging, illogical, etc. it all is. And as I learn about boundaries, it seems I'm becoming more sensitive; perhaps it's me listening more to my emotions as guides - I feel drawn now to put a stop to all of this communication that will never go anywhere because her (unconscious) end goal is something I can't do - take on her perception as if it were my own, and act accordingly. I sense if I keep being willing to discuss these topics with her, I will block her from finding other options - therapy, counselling, etc.

Am I on the right track, or does it seem too extreme to put a stop to all conversations by putting a stop to my own engagement in them? One positive will be, if we stop talking about these things, we can have more time to do things that are FUN and that actually bring us closer together rather than deeper into the never-ending conflict that she says she wants to "resolve." The FOG I still have is that I am still a bit controlled by my own fear of not being the supportive husband that my superego tells me to be.

I have already communicated the above to a certain extent to my pwBPD, but not with resolute conviction yet... I get the sense that the more I have conviction, the more she will actually become attracted to seeking professional help.

I suppose my question, in short, is, as her husband have I been incorrect in my presumption that I'm supposed to act like her therapist?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

You are not her therapist or her parent.

First of all- you seem pretty deep and intuitive from your posts, so I don't think this is a lack of ability to have a deep conversation. Perhaps what you are feeling is being part of the drama triangle as "rescuer" for your wife's uncomfortable feelings and while you know that spouses do comfort each other, this is somehow excessive or out of balance?

It's an interesting situation as I think there can also be a cultural gender imbalance. This is probably not a popular idea now but years ago there was a book - not on BPD- called "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". The premise was that women connect by talking to each other about things, but men tend to take a "fix it" perspective when being talked to about a problem.

Maybe it's the "fix it" perspective? Your wife might want to share something, but that doesn't mean you have to fix the issue. Likely if it's BPD, you can't fix it. Maybe she just wants to be heard.

There is also a time factor. You have other things to do and if this "sharing" is excessive, you may be feeling this is too much.

I would not set a limit with the intent of her wanting to see a therapist. That's an entirely different situation and she may not be willing to reveal things to another person. Your personal limit is your time and ability to have these talks. I am not sure it's a good thing to eliminate them entirely, but perhaps put a schedule on them. Like set aside a certain time for you two to be alone and talk. So- she wants to talk- you say "honey I would love to hear what you have to say- remember we set aside the boys nap time on Saturday and we can talk then".

Why nap time? Because it has a beginning and an end. If you do evenings it could end up being a sleep deprived all nighter.

There is likely going to be resistance to this and accusations. You are available for her talks- just not all the time and any time. The boundary is the time frame.

[formflier]

You are NOT her therapist!

I do think you should revisit this a time or two and start the conversation with.."I want to understand your point of view about empathy.."

Then listen..

Then "bookend the conversation" with...did you feel I empathized with you?

If the answer is no...then ask for an example.

Essentially..keep handing the responsibility back to her to explain it in a way that you can understand.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

You can also set a boundary on what you wish or don't wish to discuss.

I agree - the FOO issue - is probably unsolvable. It may also be that she's ruminating on this topic and that is driving repeated discussions.

I think you realize that FOO issues - over and over again are not going to be productive.

I think it's OK to say "honey we discussed that and there's nothing new about this, so I don't wish to get into it. If there is any change I will update you". Changes being news and event- family events such as "cousin is getting married" or other things to keep her updated but not get into emotional issues.

Childhood events, dynamics- don't dwell on them, change the topic.

[Cat Familiar]

You are NOT her therapist.

You do not lack empathy. In fact you have too much empathy for her and too little for yourself.

She is projecting; she doesn’t respect you.

These conversations that she wants are NOT what occur in healthy relationships.  https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

If a marital partner acts as a therapist for their spouse, the relationship is no longer two equals. The same is true with her expecting that you should share her viewpoints, feelings, perceptions.

You two are individuals and for a successful marriage, you need to be equals and there needs to be room for your indivuality to be respected. She doesn’t understand that. It’s a threat to her if you don’t agree with everything she thinks.

[maxsterling]

Many, many of you posts sound exactly like my relationship.  I have the same issue with my W.  My feeling is that my W is not a "fully formed person" and she views having a partner to vent/complain to as part of a "healthy" relationship.  In other words, she wants me to constantly validate her and help her through her list of complaints/negative feelings regarding her relationships/life/family, etc.  She has two Ts.  That is their role.  I try to back out of such conversations that never go well, and it usually ends poorly. 

I think pwBPD have issues with deep conversations in general.  About the longest I can manage with my wife is about 15 minutes before she is annoyed with something.   I thing anything "deep" and she is just quickly emotionally overwhelmed.  Same goes with conversations with any friend or family.  After an extended conversation, W is overwhelmed and then needs to vent/recap the conversation to me afterwards.

[Notwendy]

This is an interesting topic because I felt the need to have "deep conversations" with my H and he has little interest in that.

Being that I have the most obviously dysfunctional FOO, I have wondered if it is my "need" that is dysfunctional or his discomfort with deep conversations.  I don't really know. I haven't been married to anyone else. My role growing up was as my BPD mother's emotional caretaker and so these kinds of conversations are a "normal" for me but I don't know if my "normal" is the same as others.

There's also some Venus and Mars cultural influences here.

Since working on co-dependency, I have found my feelings of needing such conversations to be much less and I have less interest in them.  

I also have come to believe that one person might not be able to meet all of another person's emotional needs. I think there are important boundaries in a marriage, and it's not appropriate to disclose personal marital issues or form an emotional connection that might become romantic, but if I want to vent to someone, I have female friends, and also can call a sponsor or speak to a T if necessary.

Perhaps one concern with BPD is fear of discovery, so a partner might not wish to vent to someone else. Also if the need is large, and/or dysfunctional it could be overwhelming and a partner may not be able to meet this need. But that doesn't mean the partner is wrong or should be doing that.

I also think there can be a cultural "mismatch" with the comfort zone for these types of conversations. Venus and Mars, but also growing up in a reserved family or not, or different cultures. The "right" amount may be a wide range in the middle.

But with mental illness, a partner is not a therapist and that's better handled with one.

[formflier]

Deep conversations have been fraught for me as well.

They sometimes go well...just enough to keep my trying them from time to time.

It also depends on the subject.  Anything religious is pretty much off the table..unless it is very "surfacey" .

The comment about "being discovered" rings true with me as well (going both ways).

As in my wife from time to time will say things like "I always knew there was an issue there" (essentially a negative judgment) rather than being supportive if I "reveal" something I'm embarrassed about or if I'm frustrated with trying to improve some aspect of my life.

Best,

FF

[truthdevotee]

I am very very grateful for everything everyone has shared.

So much food for thought and action.

So much to learn... I see the learning curve is a steep one and it will take time... but by listening to all of your experiences my understanding is getting stronger.

Thank you for all the time and effort you put into helping others

[truthdevotee]

You are NOT her therapist!

I do think you should revisit this a time or two and start the conversation with.."I want to understand your point of view about empathy.."

Then listen..

Then "bookend the conversation" with...did you feel I empathized with you?

If the answer is no...then ask for an example.

Essentially..keep handing the responsibility back to her to explain it in a way that you can understand.

Best,

FF

I love this "keep handing the responsibility back to her to explain..."

I'll put this into action.

[truthdevotee]

You are not her therapist or her parent.

First of all- you seem pretty deep and intuitive from your posts, so I don't think this is a lack of ability to have a deep conversation. Perhaps what you are feeling is being part of the drama triangle as "rescuer" for your wife's uncomfortable feelings and while you know that spouses do comfort each other, this is somehow excessive or out of balance?

This feels true - it's out of balance. There's "something else going on" when we go into those "deep waters" that are beyond a deep conversation. I love deep conversations, I love emotional connection. So in those deeper waters there is something that is so painful I can barely stand it, and I seem to be becoming more sensitive to it. I think that's a sign of listening to my feelings more; becoming more sensitive is good. It means I know where I need to strengthen a boundary. It appears in these "deep waters" there is something else going on.

It's an interesting situation as I think there can also be a cultural gender imbalance. This is probably not a popular idea now but years ago there was a book - not on BPD- called "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". The premise was that women connect by talking to each other about things, but men tend to take a "fix it" perspective when being talked to about a problem.

Maybe it's the "fix it" perspective? Your wife might want to share something, but that doesn't mean you have to fix the issue. Likely if it's BPD, you can't fix it. Maybe she just wants to be heard.

I've read Mars/Venus in the past and definitely had a Mr. Fix It pattern to let go of.

There is also a time factor. You have other things to do and if this "sharing" is excessive, you may be feeling this is too much.

This is very, very, very true. Time factor. Yes. Those deep conversations she wants are right in the middle of when I'm getting the kids out the door, or cooking up lunch or going to bed!

I would not set a limit with the intent of her wanting to see a therapist. That's an entirely different situation and she may not be willing to reveal things to another person. Your personal limit is your time and ability to have these talks. I am not sure it's a good thing to eliminate them entirely, but perhaps put a schedule on them. Like set aside a certain time for you two to be alone and talk. So- she wants to talk- you say "honey I would love to hear what you have to say- remember we set aside the boys nap time on Saturday and we can talk then".

Why nap time? Because it has a beginning and an end. If you do evenings it could end up being a sleep deprived all nighter.

There is likely going to be resistance to this and accusations. You are available for her talks- just not all the time and any time. The boundary is the time frame.

Thank you... yes there's already resistance and accusations, a lot. "Oh, you never want to talk," "you're not capable of emotional connection, etc.," "you always have an excuse." The truth is that we are so busy that there is in reality a one to two hour space for us to talk in the evenings usually... and sometimes she chooses to go to bed. Additionally I've asked her if she'd like to book a babysitter so that we can have a date night once a week. She refuses because she doesn't want anybody in our home.

So yeah... I get those accusations and I guess it's just what she's feeling in that particular moment. It can still be hurtful and frustrating for me to hear those accusations.

[truthdevotee]

You can also set a boundary on what you wish or don't wish to discuss.

I agree - the FOO issue - is probably unsolvable. It may also be that she's ruminating on this topic and that is driving repeated discussions.

Rumination... I had not had this thought. This feels very true. It's rumination. It's like an addiction...

I think you realize that FOO issues - over and over again are not going to be productive.

Yes... in these "deep waters" - they're not really the typical deep conversation which I love to have on all sorts of topics... there's something going on there. I don't know 100% what it is, but it feels like she just wants me to agree 100% with her to the point where I am not permitted to have my own perceptions! Additionally, in a deep conversation there's a natural flow of connection - a give and take - between the two sides... there's a quality to the depth that is positive... whereas in these "deep conversations" she wants me to have about my FOO, it's quite the opposite. It is one sided and I am not yet strong enough to withstand the depth of despair that she expresses (I hope one day to be strong enough, but perhaps my sensitivity to this is a gift in the sense that I'm not supposed to help her with this... rather I'm supposed to set the boundary so that she is forced to find help elsewhere).

I think it's OK to say "honey we discussed that and there's nothing new about this, so I don't wish to get into it. If there is any change I will update you". Changes being news and event- family events such as "cousin is getting married" or other things to keep her updated but not get into emotional issues.

These practical examples are super super helpful for me. Thanks a lot Notwendy

[truthdevotee]

You are NOT her therapist.

You do not lack empathy. In fact you have too much empathy for her and too little for yourself.

She is projecting; she doesn’t respect you.

It is so true that she doesn't respect me. Additionally, she blames me for my lack of respect towards her, a lot... at least 3 to 5 times per week. "You have no respect."

These conversations that she wants are NOT what occur in healthy relationships.  https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

Thank you for this brilliant link.

If a marital partner acts as a therapist for their spouse, the relationship is no longer two equals. The same is true with her expecting that you should share her viewpoints, feelings, perceptions.

Yes, this is what the "deep water" conversations feel like - totally one sided. The reality is that she doesn't respect the fact that I'm an individual at all. And I think that's why I am struggling so deeply when she manages to get me to "go there." For example, we were driving in the car on Sunday and the boys were sleeping. She said something like, "so, isn't this finally a good point for you to talk to me about FOO?" In that moment I went into FOG. I forgot about my boundary about heavy discussions when driving. My superego said "yes, TD, don't be selfish, talk to her..." It didn't go well. I had to stop the car at the next gas station, get some fresh air and a coffee. Meanwhile one of the boys woke up, and that didn't go down well with her...

You two are individuals and for a successful marriage, you need to be equals and there needs to be room for your indivuality to be respected. She doesn’t understand that. It’s a threat to her if you don’t agree with everything she thinks.

This is so totally spot on. This is the "deep water" dynamic that is not a typical "deep conversation" which I enjoy. I feel a deep despairing frustration the more I get pulled into that energy field where she seems absolutely determined to convince, persuade, manipulate and tell me how despicable I am. That's what happened in the car; it ended up with her saying that she was "disgusted that she had sex with me." At that point I totally withdraw and drove very slowly, until the next gas station.

[truthdevotee]

I also have come to believe that one person might not be able to meet all of another person's emotional needs.

I love this... this is really true...

Perhaps one concern with BPD is fear of discovery, so a partner might not wish to vent to someone else. Also if the need is large, and/or dysfunctional it could be overwhelming and a partner may not be able to meet this need. But that doesn't mean the partner is wrong or should be doing that.

I think there is something of this going on in me - it could be that the need is too large for me to handle. It might be that I'm really not supposed to meet the need, so it's a blessing for us both that I can't handle it. In her world, she wants me to be (as she says) her "soul mate" and she is recently saying she's looking for a soul mate. I asked if that means someone romantic, and she said not necessarily so. I let her know that I'm seeking help from a therapist/counsellor and it could be something she could consider too.

I also think there can be a cultural "mismatch" with the comfort zone for these types of conversations. Venus and Mars, but also growing up in a reserved family or not, or different cultures. The "right" amount may be a wide range in the middle.

I also grew up as my mother's emotional caretaker so these conversations have been natural for me too. My FOO is more to the warm side, whereas her FOO is more to the reserved side (this matches our cultural backgrounds, too). pwBPD grew up with a complete absence of nurturance and emotional intimacy, so now she has an extremely strong need for it. I on the other hand grew up with "too much" nurturance and emotional intimacy, and I had a strong need for "masculine" guidance, affirmation and direction. So I'm like a sponge for her emotional energies and I've learned slowly how to be more balanced and not effected. I'd love to be totally not effected but I don't know if it's possible...

[truthdevotee]

Many, many of you posts sound exactly like my relationship.  I have the same issue with my W.  My feeling is that my W is not a "fully formed person" and she views having a partner to vent/complain to as part of a "healthy" relationship.  In other words, she wants me to constantly validate her and help her through her list of complaints/negative feelings regarding her relationships/life/family, etc.  She has two Ts.  That is their role.  I try to back out of such conversations that never go well, and it usually ends poorly. 

I think pwBPD have issues with deep conversations in general.  About the longest I can manage with my wife is about 15 minutes before she is annoyed with something.   I thing anything "deep" and she is just quickly emotionally overwhelmed.  Same goes with conversations with any friend or family.  After an extended conversation, W is overwhelmed and then needs to vent/recap the conversation to me afterwards.

This was a big insight for me that with anything "deep" she gets quickly emotionally overwhelmed. It made me think that it's not necessarily that I'm doing something wrong by triggering her, but that she is more easily triggered because she has entered herself into "deep water" so to speak.

What you share maxsterling above and in all your posts totally resonates with me down to the last word. pwBPD is also venting/recapping emotionally charged conversations with others, to me. I'm not supposed to get tired or have any needs of my own! I'm only supposed to listen at all times she needs me to do so! (little bit of frustration in me about this).

[truthdevotee]

Deep conversations have been fraught for me as well.

They sometimes go well...just enough to keep my trying them from time to time.

It also depends on the subject.  Anything religious is pretty much off the table..unless it is very "surfacey" .

The comment about "being discovered" rings true with me as well (going both ways).

As in my wife from time to time will say things like "I always knew there was an issue there" (essentially a negative judgment) rather than being supportive if I "reveal" something I'm embarrassed about or if I'm frustrated with trying to improve some aspect of my life.

Best,

FF

I've become really hesitant to share deep personal insights with my pwBPD over the years for the same reason you mention here, FF. "Yeah, I think you're like that because your parents are so immature. You couldn't help bring that into our relationship." Essentially there's a judgement and a jab from my pwBPD that says "look at what I have to deal with, with YOU." Then I sense there's a bit of a viscous cycle; since I have over the years become more reserved with her and share very, very little with her, she feels that and reacts to it negatively. It's not that I'm "incapable" as she says, it's rather that I learned not to share things with HER because 1) it's rarely received or 2) it is too triggering for her and results in negative emotional reactions. Ugh. And she's totally unaware of this... I simply can't share this with her because it would be too painful for her to even consider...

But, like you said, I think it's important to continue to be open to sharing personal insights and deep conversations with her, otherwise I'll continue playing into the viscous cycle where she says I'm "incapable of emotional intimacy."

[formflier]

One thing I have done is "kinda fight back"..but not directly.

(I'm a military guy...so pardon the analogies if they don't work)

From reading here and from my personal experiences.  I'm not aware of many..or any really..frontal assaults that have produced a good outcome.

Flanking maneuvers...can sometimes get a pwBPD to look at things differently.

So...my wife has said similar things like the example you shared "well you couldn't help it because you are an idiot...and I'm so smart...you should be thankful I put up with you.."  (you get the gist...that's not a quote..)

Anyway...a frontal assault of "how does the judgmental bizatch approach help our relationship" usually resulted in the "how dare you call me names.." type of thing.

Whereas if I toned it down..and used "interest" and "perplexed"  "Hey babe..I want to understand how this helps us come together and be close?"

usually would get some sort of answer like "oh well then you can change and our relationship is better"

me (perplexed but a bit excited) "oh great I see.  So we gently point out each others faults, as we see them, to each other and we each work on changing those for the purpose of bettering our relationship?  Do I have that right?"

Usually that would trigger "oh..so what do you think is wrong with me?"

"Babe..I haven't really thought about it, but if you believe it's helpful to make us better I will.  (really gentle here)  Hey...let's get back to helping me understand how your idea makes our relationship better.  I want to understand.."

Wash rinse repeat...stay light...interested...slightly confused. 

Let them wrestle with the way to  suggest begin judgmental is helpful...don't persecute them in a "how dare you way"...but don't spare them from the obvious pain of their idea.

Usually if I'm disciplined this will result in "oh forget it...you wouldn't understand anyway." (yep...ignore that jab)

me:  "ok..let me know when you want to discuss it further.  Hey...I need to stretch my legs..wanna go for a walk."

Over time FF's "way" seemed more pleasant and relaxing and her "way" constantly ran into pain and frustration..yet I didn't "hand her" anything that could distract her from her ideas not lining up with improving a relationship.

Over time there have been less and less of those conversations.  Now when they come up I can usually stay light and say "Sure...we can get into that if you want or we could (insert something pleasant)" 

More often than not she will pick something pleasant and I never hear about the first issue..at least for a while.

Change can happen...but it comes at a glacial pace...

Hang in there..

Best,

FF

[truthdevotee]

One thing I have done is "kinda fight back"..but not directly.

(I'm a military guy...so pardon the analogies if they don't work)

From reading here and from my personal experiences.  I'm not aware of many..or any really..frontal assaults that have produced a good outcome.

Flanking maneuvers...can sometimes get a pwBPD to look at things differently.

So...my wife has said similar things like the example you shared "well you couldn't help it because you are an idiot...and I'm so smart...you should be thankful I put up with you.."  (you get the gist...that's not a quote..)

Anyway...a frontal assault of "how does the judgmental bizatch approach help our relationship" usually resulted in the "how dare you call me names.." type of thing.

Whereas if I toned it down..and used "interest" and "perplexed"  "Hey babe..I want to understand how this helps us come together and be close?"

usually would get some sort of answer like "oh well then you can change and our relationship is better"

me (perplexed but a bit excited) "oh great I see.  So we gently point out each others faults, as we see them, to each other and we each work on changing those for the purpose of bettering our relationship?  Do I have that right?"

Usually that would trigger "oh..so what do you think is wrong with me?"

"Babe..I haven't really thought about it, but if you believe it's helpful to make us better I will.  (really gentle here)  Hey...let's get back to helping me understand how your idea makes our relationship better.  I want to understand.."

Wash rinse repeat...stay light...interested...slightly confused. 

Let them wrestle with the way to  suggest begin judgmental is helpful...don't persecute them in a "how dare you way"...but don't spare them from the obvious pain of their idea.

Usually if I'm disciplined this will result in "oh forget it...you wouldn't understand anyway." (yep...ignore that jab)

me:  "ok..let me know when you want to discuss it further.  Hey...I need to stretch my legs..wanna go for a walk."

Over time FF's "way" seemed more pleasant and relaxing and her "way" constantly ran into pain and frustration..yet I didn't "hand her" anything that could distract her from her ideas not lining up with improving a relationship.

Over time there have been less and less of those conversations.  Now when they come up I can usually stay light and say "Sure...we can get into that if you want or we could (insert something pleasant)" 

More often than not she will pick something pleasant and I never hear about the first issue..at least for a while.

Change can happen...but it comes at a glacial pace...

Hang in there..

Best,

FF

Hi FF

Thank you very much for this extremely insightful post. I love the military analogy... my sponsor is a veteran and the disciplined mindset he helps me to practice has been vital... more than vital... he always told me "stay loyal until properly relieved" and many other strong principles I needed to get out of my addictions.

I really grasp the mindset/approach you're describing. I am putting it into practice. I can "feel" it reading your examples. Currently I'm still pulled too much into the drama with my pwBPD. I can tell I'm a bit exhausted because temptations to fall into old addictive patterns come up in my mind/body. So I'm still way too "heavy" because I'm feeling too heavy and I'm absorbing that heaviness in my interactions with my W. I will be as focused and consistent as possible on these flanking maneuvers. I really agree - never have I been successful with frontal assaults and I always felt guilty for indulging in them.

[truthdevotee]

I did it for the first time today, FF. Under pressure, I tend to forget the techniques so I'm happy I remembered. I write this to try to help this new technique to become a habit.

After my W asked how many times I have called my parents, I asked "Please could you describe in which way you feel asking these questions brings us closer together? I want to understand"

She ignored the question and went to a different topic.

[formflier]

She ignored the question and went to a different topic.

Yep..stick with military analogy.  Declare victory for this "skirmish" and move on.

Same thing for another "tool"

"Blah blah blah you are an azzhole and you have a booger you refuse to pick.  I can't believe I married a man that leaves them up there...what kind of deviant are you?"

(stay light) "Oh goodness...this sounds important to you.  I want to understand.  I can give you my full attention tomorrow over brunch.  Let's talk more then."

Then move on

Tomorrow at brunch.  Stay light..don't get into it.  Let her bring up some stuff...talk about the bacon..the coffee.  Then maybe a 1/3 of the way into brunch.

"Hey babe...anything else you want to chat about from our conversation on yesterday?"

If she says no...declare victory and move on.

If she says yes...relax..listen, reflective listening (perhaps removing judgments).  Keep handing it back to her.  "that sounds hard..what do you think you will do?" (don't solve it for her)

And for goodness sake...pick that thing...

Best,

FF

[truthdevotee]

Hahahaha booger 

I'm struck by your mention of "move on" several times. My sponsor always tells me "keep moving forward." I need to get better at it. My wife is often in a very deep kind of despairing energy field and wants to pull me in there right with her. It's sad to see her this way but I recognize it doesn't help anybody for me to go there too. I'm still a bit "weak" around it in the sense that I can get pulled in energetically even if I don't want to consciously. "move on" is something I need to build - not getting stuck there with her even on an inner level.

You said "If she says yes...relax..listen, reflective listening (perhaps removing judgments).  Keep handing it back to her.  "that sounds hard..what do you think you will do?" (don't solve it for her)?

This was striking - "hand it back to her" - so it's like handing back the responsibility and asking her how she's going to deal with it. That's really powerful because it establishes me as a separate individual and pulls me away from my habit of being a caretaker for her emotions.

[formflier]

Two things.

1.  Most of us nons assume people have an interest in "repairing" a relationship or an issue.  Google Gottman and relationship repair.  Many times we don't want to move on because we are like "hey...this hurt...let's repair it" (totally not in a blaming way)

Well...pwBPD simply don't to that.  There is just too much shame.  I hope you can find empathy in this for your pwBPD.


2.  Handing it back to her..

I'm not going to disagree with what you said.  I will add to what you said that focus on "believing in them" is probably the best way.

"Gosh babe...that looks hard.  I'm sure you can solve it.  What do you think you will do first?"

compare that to

"I'm separate from you...I won't let you pull me down in your dungeon of shame.."

Questions can be validating.  Spend time in the article below.

Validating questions

And..dude..seriously.  Good job being able to step back and pick a different path.

I know...I KNOW that all of your instincts and your brain are saying "it's her fault..she is bat shizzer crazy.."  

That's most likely accurate...but you seem to be able to realize now that it isn't helpful.

Be strong...do something special for yourself because you have "got it"...!

Best,

FF

[mstnghu]

Truthdevotee, I've been following this thread and can definitely relate to and agree with what you and many others have posted.

I've always been somebody who likes to have deep conversations and be able to connect with people more than just superficially. There is something completely different about the "deep" conversations my wife constantly wants to have.
It's soul-sucking and parasitic to try to have these conversations with her and they almost inevitably end in a fight. They always seem to be started at completely impractical times as well. Before I moved out (we're currently separated), she would try to start these heavy conversations as we're laying down to sleep or when she can clearly see that I'm busy with something else. Now, whenever I sense that my wife is about to start talking about something deep or heavy, I immediately tense up and feel my anxiety start. As much as I want to try to be empathetic and try to listen to her, I just don't feel I have it in me anymore.

 Now that I've moved out, she'll constantly try to start these conversations when I'm over at the house but am about to leave. There's never any resolution and my stance never changes. It's as if she figures that by bringing up the same issue over and over, I'll eventually be so beaten down that I'll change my position and tell her what she wants to hear. It's completely mentally and emotionally draining to constantly be sucked into these convos.

Based on your posts, I see you as very introspective and self-aware and the fact that you're on here looking for guidance and support just confirms that. I think most of us on here are actually pretty self-aware and we care about being decent people and having deep connections with other people...it's also a weakness which becomes exploited by the BPDs in our lives. We may have our own issues to work on, but we are not "the issue".

[truthdevotee]

Two things.

1.  Most of us nons assume people have an interest in "repairing" a relationship or an issue.  Google Gottman and relationship repair.  Many times we don't want to move on because we are like "hey...this hurt...let's repair it" (totally not in a blaming way)

Well...pwBPD simply don't to that.  There is just too much shame.  I hope you can find empathy in this for your pwBPD.


2.  Handing it back to her..

I'm not going to disagree with what you said.  I will add to what you said that focus on "believing in them" is probably the best way.

"Gosh babe...that looks hard.  I'm sure you can solve it.  What do you think you will do first?"

compare that to

"I'm separate from you...I won't let you pull me down in your dungeon of shame.."

Questions can be validating.  Spend time in the article below.

Validating questions

And..dude..seriously.  Good job being able to step back and pick a different path.

I know...I KNOW that all of your instincts and your brain are saying "it's her fault..she is bat shizzer crazy.."  

That's most likely accurate...but you seem to be able to realize now that it isn't helpful.

Be strong...do something special for yourself because you have "got it"...!

Best,

FF

Thanks FF

[truthdevotee]

Truthdevotee, I've been following this thread and can definitely relate to and agree with what you and many others have posted.

I've always been somebody who likes to have deep conversations and be able to connect with people more than just superficially. There is something completely different about the "deep" conversations my wife constantly wants to have.
It's soul-sucking and parasitic to try to have these conversations with her and they almost inevitably end in a fight. They always seem to be started at completely impractical times as well. Before I moved out (we're currently separated), she would try to start these heavy conversations as we're laying down to sleep or when she can clearly see that I'm busy with something else. Now, whenever I sense that my wife is about to start talking about something deep or heavy, I immediately tense up and feel my anxiety start. As much as I want to try to be empathetic and try to listen to her, I just don't feel I have it in me anymore.

 Now that I've moved out, she'll constantly try to start these conversations when I'm over at the house but am about to leave. There's never any resolution and my stance never changes. It's as if she figures that by bringing up the same issue over and over, I'll eventually be so beaten down that I'll change my position and tell her what she wants to hear. It's completely mentally and emotionally draining to constantly be sucked into these convos.

Based on your posts, I see you as very introspective and self-aware and the fact that you're on here looking for guidance and support just confirms that. I think most of us on here are actually pretty self-aware and we care about being decent people and having deep connections with other people...it's also a weakness which becomes exploited by the BPDs in our lives. We may have our own issues to work on, but we are not "the issue".

Hi mstnghu, it's nice to meet you and healing to hear what you wrote. It sounds like we have the exact same experience. I totally relate to the immediate subconscious anxiety response, and I'm also feeling I have no energy for it anymore... even though I love her and want to be empathetic. I've spent so many years listening, endlessly listening. I also feel that she brings things up repeatedly as a way to try to make me exhausted. It's amazing how our experiences sound the same...

I reflected on the word "connection." My W uses this word a lot and tells me how "you don't want to connect with me." I sense she knows this is my weakness because I want to be a good, loving husband. So by saying this, she knows she can "get in" and pull me in. I see this compassionately, and it's clear this is her tactic. I'm reflecting on what connection really means to me. The truth is, what she desires isn't connection at all. There can be no real connection in painful negative emotions - there's no desire to see me as an individual. The so-called connection seems to be better termed "narcisistic supply." This "supply" concept rings true for me - something I read on the internet in the past couple of days. This "supply" is like a drug; it's the drug of attention and focus. There are no solutions in this "so-called connection" because the paradigm is one of receiving attention.

True connection occurs on the level of Spirit. It's not necessarily emotionless, but the Awareness of Being is primary when true connection occurs. Emotions are part of the connecting experience - sharing personal truths, empathizing, listening, reflecting, and there's a fair balance. In my W's so-called "connecting" there isn't this mutuality. In this paradigm, emotions/thoughts are primary, and the sacred Being of the other person is secondary...

[khibomsis]

TD, take it easy. You have come so far in the past few weeks, you are going from strength to strength. You don't have to do everything in a day. Give yourself a pat on the back for all the positive actions you have been taking   

Indeed I have never found circular conversations to lead anywhere for the non. When I can, I try to listen 'through' them for the emotional truths they may be expressing. When I can't I walk away. Well done for taking back your power! She can't force you to listen to her if you don't want to.

Pace yourself gently and master one tool at a time. As you begin to weed out energy draining activities you will find more energy to do the positive things that give you joy.