Introduction - How to prepare for divorce?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I've been reading here for quite a while and have responded once or twice to other posts, but haven't really introduced myself.  I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I've been married for 36 years to a man I thought was my best friend.  Over the years there have been blowups, things smashed and broken, dangerous behavior in the car, control issues, unemployment, etc., but in between life would always be somewhat "normal".  As the kids (2 daughters) got older and began to exert their independence, he got progressively worse in his behavior.  The money control escalated to the point that he was requiring oldest daughter (DD1) to document what she was spending on fast food while at college because he didn't consider that college expenses and was refusing to pay for it. 

When she was a senior in college, in 2010, we had a particularly difficult year.  I went through a workplace shooting where 3 friends were killed.  DD1 broke up shortly after with her longtime boyfriend, and at the same time my husband was laid off, again.  DD1 dropped out of school and took some time off.  She moved across country and found an internship for herself.  In the meantime, she was relying on savings in a bank account she held jointly with my husband.  Uhwbpd wasn't happy about her going, and shortly after she left he went in and removed over half the money from their joint account, claiming she "owed" us that money.  He did this without warning her or telling me.  This was the beginning of the end for me.  DD1 didn't speak to him for months.  Eventually things cooled off and life was semi-normal for a while, but this began a period where uhwbpd couldn't stay employed.  From 2010 to 2018, he went through 4 jobs, none lasting longer than a few months.  Most of the time he just sat on his computer playing games.  In 2011, I took leave from my job to work (paid) with a former colleague for a while.  This was to give me some distance after the shooting and to help refresh some work skills.  It was supposed to be for one year, but ended up lasting for three.  I was traveling 7 hours one way to another city, coming home every second or third weekend.  While living on my own, my depression lifted.  I attributed this to the change in work environment but I also knew that it was a relief not to deal with husband every day.

In June 2014,  a few weeks before I was to move back home, I discovered he was having an affair with a girl the same age as our oldest daughter.  I was devastated but thought that 30+ years of marriage were worth trying to save.  Needless to say, he blamed me for his affair and it was a long time and lots of therapy before I realized that it wasn't me. 

In the aftermath of the affair, his behavior escalated, becoming more angry and abusive.  DD2 was living at home on/off between internships and, while she was the "golden child" growing up, he began to turn on her because she wouldn't forgive him for the affair.  There was an incident of physical violence with DD2 (we should have called police), but he reluctantly agreed to get therapy to work on anger management. 

Since then, there has been the constant cycling between love bombing and discarding, with cycles getting shorter and the intensity increasing.  I had already begun to realize that he was not going to change and I started researching how to live with him.  I came across Stop Walking on Eggshells, and that's how I found this site.  To say that I was relieved to discover there was a name for it would be an understatement. 

About a year ago, there was another extreme confrontation between uhwpbd and DD2, that wasn't physical (as in, actual contact) but might as well have been in the intensity and threat implied.  DD2 was living at home, finishing up a graduate degree at the time, found a job, and moved out shortly after (during a pandemic).  She hardly speaks to him anymore.  In the meantime, he has focused on DD1 as the new "golden child".  At that point, I began making plans to divorce.  I knew that it wasn't going to happen quickly, but I had started a while back  to put some money away in a separate bank account, and began to interview lawyers.

In the past month, I have filed and they are scheduled to serve papers in a couple of weeks.  Now I'm beginning to panic because I'm afraid of what is coming.  Just a few nights ago, there was another intense blowup that left a hole in my bedroom wall.  I haven't spoken to him since and I sleep with the door locked at night (we've been in separate bedrooms since the affair).  Everyone says to just leave, but I work from home (not as simple as taking a computer with me) and I have two cats that have to go with me.

I'm looking for insight into how to prepare, what to expect.  And maybe this is just more about not wanting to feel alone. 

If you managed to make it through all this, thank you. I will also apologize in advance if I am unable to respond quickly.  It is difficult to find time to login here more than once a day.

[InPurgatory]

I've been reading here for quite a while and have responded once or twice to other posts, but haven't really introduced myself.  I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I've been married for 36 years to a man I thought was my best friend.  Over the years there have been blowups, things smashed and broken, dangerous behavior in the car, control issues, unemployment, etc., but in between life would always be somewhat "normal".  As the kids (2 daughters) got older and began to exert their independence, he got progressively worse in his behavior.  The money control escalated to the point that he was requiring oldest daughter (DD1) to document what she was spending on fast food while at college because he didn't consider that college expenses and was refusing to pay for it. 

When she was a senior in college, in 2010, we had a particularly difficult year.  I went through a workplace shooting where 3 friends were killed.  DD1 broke up shortly after with her longtime boyfriend, and at the same time my husband was laid off, again.  DD1 dropped out of school and took some time off.  She moved across country and found an internship for herself.  In the meantime, she was relying on savings in a bank account she held jointly with my husband.  Uhwbpd wasn't happy about her going, and shortly after she left he went in and removed over half the money from their joint account, claiming she "owed" us that money.  He did this without warning her or telling me.  This was the beginning of the end for me.  DD1 didn't speak to him for months.  Eventually things cooled off and life was semi-normal for a while, but this began a period where uhwbpd couldn't stay employed.  From 2010 to 2018, he went through 4 jobs, none lasting longer than a few months.  Most of the time he just sat on his computer playing games.  In 2011, I took leave from my job to work (paid) with a former colleague for a while.  This was to give me some distance after the shooting and to help refresh some work skills.  It was supposed to be for one year, but ended up lasting for three.  I was traveling 7 hours one way to another city, coming home every second or third weekend.  While living on my own, my depression lifted.  I attributed this to the change in work environment but I also knew that it was a relief not to deal with husband every day.

In June 2014,  a few weeks before I was to move back home, I discovered he was having an affair with a girl the same age as our oldest daughter.  I was devastated but thought that 30+ years of marriage were worth trying to save.  Needless to say, he blamed me for his affair and it was a long time and lots of therapy before I realized that it wasn't me. 

In the aftermath of the affair, his behavior escalated, becoming more angry and abusive.  DD2 was living at home on/off between internships and, while she was the "golden child" growing up, he began to turn on her because she wouldn't forgive him for the affair.  There was an incident of physical violence with DD2 (we should have called police), but he reluctantly agreed to get therapy to work on anger management. 

Since then, there has been the constant cycling between love bombing and discarding, with cycles getting shorter and the intensity increasing.  I had already begun to realize that he was not going to change and I started researching how to live with him.  I came across Stop Walking on Eggshells, and that's how I found this site.  To say that I was relieved to discover there was a name for it would be an understatement. 

About a year ago, there was another extreme confrontation between uhwpbd and DD2, that wasn't physical (as in, actual contact) but might as well have been in the intensity and threat implied.  DD2 was living at home, finishing up a graduate degree at the time, found a job, and moved out shortly after (during a pandemic).  She hardly speaks to him anymore.  In the meantime, he has focused on DD1 as the new "golden child".  At that point, I began making plans to divorce.  I knew that it wasn't going to happen quickly, but I had started a while back  to put some money away in a separate bank account, and began to interview lawyers.

In the past month, I have filed and they are scheduled to serve papers in a couple of weeks.  Now I'm beginning to panic because I'm afraid of what is coming.  Just a few nights ago, there was another intense blowup that left a hole in my bedroom wall.  I haven't spoken to him since and I sleep with the door locked at night (we've been in separate bedrooms since the affair).  Everyone says to just leave, but I work from home (not as simple as taking a computer with me) and I have two cats that have to go with me.

I'm looking for insight into how to prepare, what to expect.  And maybe this is just more about not wanting to feel alone. 

If you managed to make it through all this, thank you. I will also apologize in advance if I am unable to respond quickly.  It is difficult to find time to login here more than once a day.

[MeandThee29]

IMHO, you need to get out before he's served. That moment and the weeks to follow could be dangerous to you.

It may be worth delaying things until you can get a place set up and your things out. I get the concern about your work and your cats, but you're going to be having to do that anyway at some point.

My attorney told me that in the case of any history of violence or active addiction/mental health issues, he always recommends living separately and potentially getting a protective order. In my area, some have to continue to live together during the divorce process because of finances. I cannot imagine. That would have been a nightmare for me! I'd rather live in my car.

[GaGrl]

Is your lawyer award of the incident that left the hole in the wall? Is it possible to apply for a protective order that requires your husband to leave the house?

I would not assume it is you who needs to leave.

[CoherentMoose]

Hello.  Have you read Splitting written by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger? (https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254)  It's a good primer on what to expect and how to mitigate some of the intensity heading your way.   

I too am concerned about physical safety based on your description of past events.  My GF had to execute a "surprise" exit.  It took time to plan and she needed help from her mother to arrange for a landing apartment, but it was her only safe way out emotionally.  And the only way out with her young children.  Suggest you plan for the worst while hoping for the best.  Ensure you have a good safety plan.  Good luck.  CoMo

[livednlearned]

Write as much as you need, InPurgatory  

I'm so sorry for what you went through in your work environment, and glad you were able to temporarily relocate and decompress. Those years sounded absolutely horrible to go through and not much easier for your daughters. Do they know that you're planning to divorce their dad?

If he was not BPD, what kind of settlement would be ideal for you? Did you let your attorney know about the safety issues, and if so, what was recommended?

Are you able to slow things down legally so that you can prepare in a way that works best for you? It's great that your body is telling you to hit the brakes. Those of us in abusive relationships tend to dim those signals. Then things have to crank up high to get our attention.

With someone who is controlling and/or has anger issues and violent tendencies, it's good to think through all the scenarios. Maybe it isn't ideal for you to leave, but let's say he locks you out of your house. That's one scenario to work through in advance. Another might be filing a restraining order. A third might be what if anything he could do financially to control you or ruin your credit or rack up debt. A fourth might be love-bombing. Maybe a fifth is his own self-harm or suicidal ideation if he has had those tendencies in the past (seems he prefers to have an affair  ).

My ex was ... environmentally abusive. Meaning, he liked to shut doors on me, lock me out of the house, hide my purse, throw stuff, turn lights on when I went to sleep. He threw our dog.

I wasn't sure if things would get worse when I filed or better, which would be a different kind of worse. It was advised that I stay in the house to get the best settlement but I didn't have the same nervous system I do now. I was the one who left.

It's hard for any of us to know what will happen but in general being 10 steps ahead gives you an advantage.

That advantage can even help your ex, although not in a way he'll ever recognize. If you're prepared and grounded, it helps you avoid being reactive, which makes high-conflict divorces catastrophically awful.

Do you think your H has any idea that divorce is coming?

[InPurgatory]

Thank you all for responding so quickly.

Is your lawyer award of the incident that left the hole in the wall? Is it possible to apply for a protective order that requires your husband to leave the house?

I would not assume it is you who needs to leave.

I am writing a weekly update for my lawyer with the information about what happened.  They have a website for uploading files and I will be adding the photos of the damage and a recording of the blowup (A couple of years ago I started keeping the recording app going on my phone whenever he comes in the room.  It was on the other night and recorded the entire incident).  I have talked with my lawyer about a protective order and I was told that unless he physically assaulted me, it likely wouldn't happen.  This isn't just her opinion.  I've been told the same by another lawyer as well as the local women's shelter.

Hello.  Have you read Splitting written by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger? (https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254)  It's a good primer on what to expect and how to mitigate some of the intensity heading your way.   

CoMo, I read Splitting a while back, when I first started thinking about planning the divorce.  It's probably time for a reread.  At the time I was overwhelmed by the whole idea and wasn't able to really focus on what to do specifically.

Write as much as you need, InPurgatory 

I'm so sorry for what you went through in your work environment, and glad you were able to temporarily relocate and decompress. Those years sounded absolutely horrible to go through and not much easier for your daughters. Do they know that you're planning to divorce their dad?

Thank you livednlearned.  My daughters have both known for a couple of months that I was filing.  They are also both aware of the day that he will be served.  I wanted to let them know in case things go south.  I told them about this past week's incident as well.  Both have offered to let me stay with them, but I don't want them to be put in the middle.

If he was not BPD, what kind of settlement would be ideal for you? Did you let your attorney know about the safety issues, and if so, what was recommended?

I let my lawyer know up front about his past abusive, controlling behavior, but as I mentioned above, she didn't think it went far enough for a restraining order.  As such, she didn't think it likely that I would be able to ask for sole occupancy of the house during the divorce proceedings.  I am asking for the house in the settlement because it is paid off, and with my salary I cannot afford to live anywhere else in town that is a safe neighborhood (H makes 2 1/2 times as much and could afford to go anywhere).  If we sell it, half of the value still won't be enough to afford to buy another without paying on a mortgage until I'm in my 80s.

With someone who is controlling and/or has anger issues and violent tendencies, it's good to think through all the scenarios. Maybe it isn't ideal for you to leave, but let's say he locks you out of your house. That's one scenario to work through in advance. Another might be filing a restraining order. A third might be what if anything he could do financially to control you or ruin your credit or rack up debt. A fourth might be love-bombing. Maybe a fifth is his own self-harm or suicidal ideation if he has had those tendencies in the past (seems he prefers to have an affair  ).

My ex was ... environmentally abusive. Meaning, he liked to shut doors on me, lock me out of the house, hide my purse, throw stuff, turn lights on when I went to sleep. He threw our dog.

Do you think your H has any idea that divorce is coming?

Thanks for the suggestions.  I have thought through a couple of scenarios.  Several years ago, when he was confronted about the affair (and kicked out of our bedroom), he responded with despair and suicidal threats initially.  After a while it became anger at being kicked out. This mostly came through in passive-aggressive behavior.  Your term, "environmentally abusive" is appropriate here.  He does a lot of talking angrily to himself (where I can hear him), shoving things of mine over to make room for his stuff (in the refrigerator, cabinets, etc.).  With past pets he was more aggressive, but fortunately he hasn't tried to hurt the current cats.  He has talked about suicide in a way that seemed more about trying to manipulate me (but I contacted his therapist to let him know anyway), wrote up a draft suicide note that I found and forwarded to his therapist along with the information that he had been looking up guns on the internet (he has never owned one or showed any interest before), then ridiculed me for being concerned (his therapist told him that I had contacted him).  He once talked about setting fire to the house/workshop out of frustration (note - this conversation was traumatizing to me because we lost everything in a house fire about 28 years ago), then once again made fun of me for being upset about it.

Does he have any idea divorce is coming?  He certainly shouldn't be surprised by it, but I don't think he's expecting it at this moment.  He still talks about what we're going to do when we both retire. 

[livednlearned]

There's a fascinating chapter in Gavin de Becker's book Gift of Fear about restraining orders.

Sometimes getting one makes things worse, according to his research.

de Becker seems to think that ROs work best as a legal tactic but they don't provide actual safety and can even escalate violence. I was talked out of filing one twice and looking back, it was the better choice.

More effective for me was leverage. Some leverage leaked through lawyers, and some of it became transparent through court proceedings.

Leverage can almost work like a boundary if it's the right kind of leverage and you're able to use it effectively.

You might have to get creative in leveraging things. My hunch is that a lot of us are naturally good at leverage because dysfunctional and abusive relationships tend to be transactional. Meaning, you know instinctively what matters to your partner because that's how you manage to survive. Translating this to the legal system requires some creativity but the habit of mind is probably there.

Another tactic is to offer him something through your lawyer that's pie-in-the-sky so you give yourself room to negotiate back to reasonable. PwBPD tend to struggle with reasonable so you can probably assume he will start with entitlement. If you start at reasonable, you have a lot less room to negotiate with. I didn't learn this until late in my proceedings and paid for this lesson through the nose 

You mention that both girls have offered you a place to stay, and you don't want to put them in the middle. Aren't they already there? I understand the instinct. I even understand why you would decline their offer.

I also notice that my son learned by watching me take care of myself. It was liberating for him.

Rather than looking at it as them in the middle, might it also be a way to come together?

If they were in an abusive relationship, what would you want for them?

There are no easy answers.

[CoherentMoose]

There's a fascinating chapter in Gavin de Becker's book Gift of Fear about restraining orders.
Sometimes getting one makes things worse, according to his research.

I'm a huge fan of "Gift of Fear".  I've given it to all the women in my life, especially to my daughters.  In Gavin's description, the TRO can be interpreted as "just ran out of options" by the disordered person.  As mentioned above, identify and use leverage.  In my case, my GF threatened a TRO when we was attempting to find out where she had moved to.  The threat was enough at the time.  We are again contemplating a TRO, but trying to find other ways to stop his current behavior of calling excessively to talk the children when it's our parenting time. 

Bottom line, be very deliberate in obtaining and using a TRO so that you don't back your STBX into a corner and  left with no where else to turn.  Good luck.  CoMo

[ForeverDad]

In most states the presumption is that one spouse or the other moves out during a divorce if there is risk of conflict.  If he has shown violent tendencies, even if not striking you personally, that ought to at least make it reasonable and proactive to seek possession of the home during the divorce process.

(Remember, he's an adult, not a child.  Court will expect he as an adult can take care of himself, at least minimally.)

Even if you move out temporarily when he is served, for safety sake, that doesn't mean you can't return with the court's approval.

Sure, court may not rule favorably for you but let me give you an example.  In recent years I found out a relative hadn't asked me for financial help.  I'm not rich but I'm less poor than her.  Her explanation?  "You might have said No."  My response?  "But I might have said Yes."

Do you get the point?  Ask and the answer just might be Yes, don't ask and the status is surely No.

[InPurgatory]

There's a fascinating chapter in Gavin de Becker's book Gift of Fear about restraining orders.

Sometimes getting one makes things worse, according to his research.

de Becker seems to think that ROs work best as a legal tactic but they don't provide actual safety and can even escalate violence. I was talked out of filing one twice and looking back, it was the better choice.

More effective for me was leverage. Some leverage leaked through lawyers, and some of it became transparent through court proceedings.

Leverage can almost work like a boundary if it's the right kind of leverage and you're able to use it effectively.

You might have to get creative in leveraging things. My hunch is that a lot of us are naturally good at leverage because dysfunctional and abusive relationships tend to be transactional. Meaning, you know instinctively what matters to your partner because that's how you manage to survive. Translating this to the legal system requires some creativity but the habit of mind is probably there.

Another tactic is to offer him something through your lawyer that's pie-in-the-sky so you give yourself room to negotiate back to reasonable. PwBPD tend to struggle with reasonable so you can probably assume he will start with entitlement. If you start at reasonable, you have a lot less room to negotiate with. I didn't learn this until late in my proceedings and paid for this lesson through the nose 

You mention that both girls have offered you a place to stay, and you don't want to put them in the middle. Aren't they already there? I understand the instinct. I even understand why you would decline their offer.

I also notice that my son learned by watching me take care of myself. It was liberating for him.

Rather than looking at it as them in the middle, might it also be a way to come together?

If they were in an abusive relationship, what would you want for them?

There are no easy answers.

You're correct that my daughters have long been caught up in the "craziness" anyway.  I just don't want to put them in an awkward position with their dad because it will make their relationship that much harder going forward.  He already accuses me of "making" our daughters hate him (they don't, but his behavior after the affair was unacceptable to them and both have distanced themselves somewhat). Oldest DD is trying to help me find a temporary place to stay with my pets, but part of me keeps holding on to the hope that I won't have to pack up everything and move out.

I honestly don't want to have to get a RO, because it would likely affect his current employment (he has a security clearance), and because he would likely retaliate.

I'm putting together a list of my "wants" and I'm being pretty ambitious in my requests, knowing that I likely won't get half of what I want.  I do live in an at-fault state, however, so I'm hoping to use the fear of being seen by the community as a cheater as leverage to get a little more in the settlement.  It may not work.

I'm a huge fan of "Gift of Fear".  I've given it to all the women in my life, especially to my daughters.  In Gavin's description, the TRO can be interpreted as "just ran out of options" by the disordered person.  As mentioned above, identify and use leverage.  In my case, my GF threatened a TRO when we was attempting to find out where she had moved to.  The threat was enough at the time.  We are again contemplating a TRO, but trying to find other ways to stop his current behavior of calling excessively to talk the children when it's our parenting time. 

Bottom line, be very deliberate in obtaining and using a TRO so that you don't back your STBX into a corner and  left with no where else to turn.  Good luck.  CoMo

Thanks.  I'm hoping not to have to go this route.

In most states the presumption is that one spouse or the other moves out during a divorce if there is risk of conflict.  If he has shown violent tendencies, even if not striking you personally, that ought to at least make it reasonable and proactive to seek possession of the home during the divorce process.

(Remember, he's an adult, not a child.  Court will expect he as an adult can take care of himself, at least minimally.)

Even if you move out temporarily when he is served, for safety sake, that doesn't mean you can't return with the court's approval.

Sure, court may not rule favorably for you but let me give you an example.  In recent years I found out a relative hadn't asked me for financial help.  I'm not rich but I'm less poor than her.  Her explanation?  "You might have said No."  My response?  "But I might have said Yes."

Do you get the point?  Ask and the answer just might be Yes, don't ask and the status is surely No.

ForeverDad, I get what you're saying about asking.  When I brought this up with my lawyer, however, I was told that he couldn't be forced to leave unless he physically threatened or harmed me.  I'm not sure how I am supposed to go about asking for possession of the home if my lawyer doesn't do this?  I've also been warned that I can't claim that I am afraid of him if I am unwilling to move out to get away from him, so consequently I'm having to make plans to pack up and move all my stuff to storage.  I have nowhere to go yet. 

I go through days of complete breakdown.  The whole process of separating is so overwhelming.  I lost everything I owned in a house fire in 1993, and this feels exactly the same way.  Like I'm being forced to lose everything - my home, my yard, my life - for reasons that I have no control over.  Starting over was traumatic then and the thought of doing it again at my age feels paralyzing.

Today's goal is to try and make a list of things I can't live without and have to take with me when I leave the house next Friday.

[MeandThee29]

. 
I go through days of complete breakdown.  The whole process of separating is so overwhelming.  I lost everything I owned in a house fire in 1993, and this feels exactly the same way.  Like I'm being forced to lose everything - my home, my yard, my life - for reasons that I have no control over.  Starting over was traumatic then and the thought of doing it again at my age feels paralyzing.

Today's goal is to try and make a list of things I can't live without and have to take with me when I leave the house next Friday.

Sadly, you are completely normal in this. I knew for years that we should separate. My therapist and my kids (minors at the time) begged me, and I just couldn't do it. Ultimately my ex was the one that left and initiated the divorce process later, which pushed me to think through what was best for me. I refused reconciliation on his terms and saw in vivid color what he was capable of in the divorce process. If anything, the divorce process convinced me that he had to be out of my life forever. My finances were a mess and uncertain, and I chose to give up certain things related to our college kids because I couldn't stand the thought of having to deal with him on anything. I had only part-time work when it was final and no benefits.

In the end, it all came together. It was scary as all get-out, but we made it.

[InPurgatory]

Morning update -
I emailed my lawyer with the details of last week's incident as well as a number of questions.  She said that she would listen to the recording and let me know if it sounded serious enough to pursue having him removed from the house after he is served.  I understand that they can't just take my word for it, but it feels really invalidating.  I told her up front about the history of his aggressive behavior but because none of it reached the level of calling 911, it doesn't seem to count for anything.

It sounds like the expectation is that we should both continue to live in the house and work on "compromise".  She told me that I shouldn't move out or take steps to protect financial resources (i.e. move joint money into a separate personal account).  Unless he goes nuclear next week, it seems that nothing can be done.  In the meantime, I'm living in a prison, avoiding him as much as possible.

[InPurgatory]

My lawyer listened to the recording and commented that she was shocked at how quickly he escalated over nothing, and that she agrees his behavior is abusive and controlling.  But she doesn't believe a judge will find enough to rule for sole possession of the house right now.  She suggests staying in the house for now and if H displays this behavior after he is served, then it would be more likely to result in having him removed from the home.

So I guess I just sit and wait.  If I go about my business, then it is likely that he will escalate again at some point, so I'm  going to be constantly feeling some fear of what might happen.  On the other hand, if I take steps to eliminate conflict (staying in my room all the time, not spending money on anything, giving in to his requests to do things for him), I end up living a miserable existence and he stays in the house.  This feels like a no win situation.

[InPurgatory]

Update - uBPDh was served with divorce papers on Friday.  I left the house beforehand and stayed in a local hotel for a couple of days.  For the first 24 hours I didn't hear anything from him, then I got a call from one of his elderly aunts (I missed the call and didn't call back), so I'm guessing he called them for support.  He did not call either daughter, probably because he knew they would not be sympathetic.

I had locked my cats in the bedroom with a security camera so that I could monitor them remotely, but I needed to feed and water them, so I texted him and asked him to leave the house while I did that.  He kept giving excuses why he couldn't and said he would just go out to the workshop instead.  Then he said he wanted to sit down and talk about the separation.  I repeated my request several times, and finally when he simply refused to leave, I called a friend to go with me to the house.  He had actually left to go for a walk (don't know why he couldn't have just agreed to this before, but whatever), so he wasn't there.

When I returned to the house on Sunday, he kept his distance at first.  On Monday, he began asking again when we could sit down and talk.  Again today, he begins insisting that it needs to happen now.  I had told him I wasn't ready to discuss separation terms yet.  I certainly have no intention of talking to him about the terms of the divorce.  I'll let my lawyer handle that. 

The most unnerving part is that I can hear him on the phone with colleagues and he sounds as though he is on top of the world.  He also keeps trying to be chatty with me.  This is his usual response after he has had a major blowup, when he has gotten "it" out of his system, or when he's feeling like he has the upper hand in a situation.  I'm trying not to react to this.

[MeandThee29]

When I returned to the house on Sunday, he kept his distance at first.  On Monday, he began asking again when we could sit down and talk.  Again today, he begins insisting that it needs to happen now.  I had told him I wasn't ready to discuss separation terms yet.  I certainly have no intention of talking to him about the terms of the divorce.  I'll let my lawyer handle that.  

The most unnerving part is that I can hear him on the phone with colleagues and he sounds as though he is on top of the world.  He also keeps trying to be chatty with me.  This is his usual response after he has had a major blowup, when he has gotten "it" out of his system, or when he's feeling like he has the upper hand in a situation.  I'm trying not to react to this.

Glad to read that you're doing OK. Do keep us posted.

We were long-distance during the divorce. He promised easy and quick. He told his attorney he'd give me more than the law allowed. Well...it was a fight. I think the perceived loss of control became so overwhelming to him. His attorney overshared to mine, and mine only gave me an overview of what his attorney said because they really aren't supposed to share that much with each other. What I heard was very disturbing though. Thankfully he picked a very strong-willed attorney who stood up to him and who genuinely liked my attorney. They got it done without going to court.

Mine retired the day after it was final, and his associate just finished closeout with me. His attorney sadly died of COVID some months after finishing with my ex. The whole thing should have taken maybe six months for nearly all of it, and it took over two years.

It's highly unlikely I will ever cross paths with my ex again, thankfully. It's sad of course in so many ways.

[livednlearned]

Lucky to be able to get into the house, and great to have a friend go with you.

I remember having to leave my dog and kitty behind and it gutted me. I'm glad you can go back and spend some time with them and let some of that furball love help heal what you're going through.

You're smart to punt everything to the lawyers despite his insistence that you talk.

And smart, too, realizing that it's best to not react. He may be looking for a reaction and nothing good can come of that.

[InPurgatory]

I've been back in the house this week, and things have been mostly quiet.  He still keeps trying to be chatty and friendly and acts like nothing has happened.  He also keeps pressing me to sit down and talk.  I wasn't sure exactly what he wanted to discuss, but I have been slammed with work this week so I had put him off.  Then this evening he came into my room again to badger me again about sitting down to talk, so I told him that we didn't have anything to talk about except paying bills. He responded that he thought we could sit down "like adults" and discuss how we were going to divide things. When I told him that was for our lawyers to discuss, he suggested that we not pay lawyers "hundreds of thousands of dollars" to divide things up because it would mean that I get that much less in a settlement.   

I take that to mean that he has not retained a lawyer, and now the clock is ticking for him to respond. I also foresee that he is setting me up to be the bad guy in this scenario because I won't settle this like "an adult".  I'm already getting the vibe from him that he knows better and if I would just do what he says, then everything would be okay.  I have a very bad feeling about this.

If we have to continue to live in the same house, then I want to establish some boundaries about household responsibilities, sharing space, requiring that he respect the privacy of my bedroom and home office, etc.  I drafted an email so that there couldn't be any ambiguity, but I'm afraid that when I send it he will take that as a challenge to push those boundaries (like a small child who is told he can't open his presents early so he figures out ways to do it anyway and get away with it - and yes, this is something he did as a child and was proud of it).  I feel that when I don't establish the boundaries then he argues that he didn't know he was crossing a line (even if it's something completely obvious), so I think I need to do this.  Can anyone think of a better approach?

[ForeverDad]

He wants to "discuss this like adults".  So my sense is he doesn't want to put down in writing what he wants, yet you can predict a 'discussion' would end up being quite one-sided and probably go nowhere good.

"Give me a list how you want things to go, how you see a split of assets and debts, as well as parenting, happening."

 

[modusoperandi]

sell house buy bitcoin and gold

[InPurgatory]

I have another question for those of you who have gone through this.  This morning he cornered me and started talking about how he had friends who had gone through divorce and they were able to come to a mutual agreement without involving lawyers.  He wants me to give him a list of what I want and he will do the same, and then we can "discuss" it.  I know what I want and I'm already pretty sure he isn't going to want to give it.

My question is whether there is any disadvantage to giving him that list directly as opposed to continuing to hold firm on having my lawyer communicate with his (currently nonexistent) lawyer?  He is strongly fighting the idea of retaining his own lawyer (for "financial" reasons) and wants to just use my lawyer to draw up an agreement.  I feel like this puts him at a disadvantage, but beyond that I'm concerned about the long term impact on drawing this out.  Any thoughts?

[ForeverDad]

Beware of a possible scenario, you cooperating with handing over your list and then him failing to hand over his list.  Or he hands over a list with lots of huge gaps.

A point I've emphasized before is that you exchange whatever is requested or required.  You're at risk of being cooperative, handing over a list and then not getting anything, or not very much, in return from the disordered person.

What does your lawyer think?

As for your list, be sure you include enough so that you have some room to "negotiate".  If you're super fair and only ask for the bare minimum, then when he asks for more, then what?  Keep a few cards up your sleeve, so to speak, so you have something to negotiate with.

Also, you may want to include a few thing he wants on your list too.  That way when he wants them you can relinquish them and he may feel he 'won'.

[livednlearned]

One way of looking at this is a boundary test.

You said, "Talk to my lawyer."

He is testing your boundary on that.

If you'll be living in the same home and want a way to nip these discussions, you'll have to have this firm boundary in your back pocket: Please communicate with my lawyer about x.

I'm a fan of giving someone with an agenda a task to do that shows whether there's any intention of following through.

For example, maybe you suggest he find two or three mediators and you'll pick one. Or vice versa. If he picks one, have him set up a time/place to discuss terms.

"I'm glad you want to save money. I do too. I'm retaining a lawyer, so that's not up for debate. It sounds like you might prefer mediation. I'm willing to talk to my lawyer about that."

Thoughts?

[InPurgatory]

ForeverDad, I have sent a message to my lawyer and am waiting for a response on whether I should be handing him any sort of list.  I feel pretty certain that he isn't going to want to give what I'm asking anyway. 

Livednlearned,that's probably a good way to look at it.  He pushed again this morning and I restated that I wanted to consult my lawyer first.  Then the conversation became a monologue by him, telling me how wrong I am to do things my way, and how we have the choice of either settling things in a civilized manner or it's going to end up being "Kramer vs Kramer".  I took that as a threat.  He said that he was likely to be "nicer" than I might expect and that if we go through lawyers he might not be so nice.  He also started questioning the quality of my lawyer (who he hasn't met) based on "her advice" that I get a security camera for my room and a lock for the bedroom door.  It seems he is offended by the "suggestion that he is a monster". I ended the conversation by stating one more time that I was going to talk with my lawyer first and I didn't take the bait.

I thought that would end it, but throughout the day he kept trying to start conversations around what items I would want in the house.  I refused to engage.

I guess I'll see what the lawyer says.

[livednlearned]

He said that he was likely to be "nicer" than I might expect and that if we go through lawyers he might not be so nice.

He's bullying you.

He also started questioning the quality of my lawyer (who he hasn't met)

When he senses that one line of bullying isn't working (no lawyers) he switches to a new tactic (your lawyer sucks)

I didn't take the bait.

He's learning that you have a firm boundary. Do you feel safe in the home as he adjusts to this boundary?

[InPurgatory]

Update - I'm doing okay. I've been snowed under by work this week, which has probably been a good thing in that it keeps my mind occupied but doesn't leave me much time for anything else except eating and sleeping. Things should slow down in a few days.

Livednlearned, I feel okay at the moment.  My guess would be that he is aware other eyes are on him right now, so he is more likely to control his temper (make no mistake, he has always had the ability to control it).  I'm not sure how long that effect will last, but there's probably a window of relative calm until we start actually discussing terms of the divorce.  I still take the same precautions as before - minimal contact, gray rock, locking my bedroom door at night, etc.

Thank you all so much for the advice. I contacted my lawyer and asked her how to handle this and she said pretty much the same things you all did. Her suggestion was to offer him a few options and let him respond how he wanted to handle it. All of the options involved either having her draw up the proposal and him dealing with her directly instead of with me (she is aware and also concerned about his propensity for bullying), or going through a mediator (she suggested a name). She was okay with being the only lawyer, but her priority is representing me.  So far I'm feeling good about her response to things.  She is calm, supportive, and has a practical approach.

He decided (of course) that he would prefer to see my proposed split first before putting up his own. So I will be asking the lawyer to draft a proposed 70/30 split, knowing that he won't go for that, but aiming to accept no less than 60/40. I'm not concerned about specific "things", with very few exceptions, but I am concerned about a reasonable split of our retirement assets. He has much more cash available to him in retirement funds (because, in spite of so many years of unemployment, he has made a lot more than I have), so I'm looking for an even split of those assets.

Ever since I gave him the options to choose from, WH has basically backed off on any more discussion. Now, when work has died down a bit, I need to sit down with the lawyer and get a draft put together.

[GaGrl]

There are specific processes and forms required to move retirement funds from one spouse's IRA or 401k to the divorcing spouse. This is another area (like quit claims) where someone can stall. Make sure there are consequences to him for not completing the administration of the transfer, and don't transfer of give him something he wants until the mutual transfers are complete.

[ForeverDad]

There are specific processes and forms required to move retirement funds from one spouse's IRA or 401k to the divorcing spouse. This is another area (like quit claims) where someone can stall. Make sure there are consequences to him for not completing the administration of the transfer, and don't transfer of give him something he wants until the mutual transfers are complete.

GaGrl is right, there are specific rules if dividing retirement funds.  (I used to work as programmer for a retirement solutions company.  The court system has a detailed process to step by step handle money transfers.  The biggest mistake would be to send a check to the other person.  Imagine you send a check to the other and it is cashed and doesn't go into ex's respective retirement account.  IRS would consider this a 'distribution' from your account and you would be taxed for it if a pre-tax account.

From my 2013 post... This all happened after my final decree since that's when we put the financial settlement in writing.  I filled out the Domestic Relations Order (DRO) information online, had the online company review it (probably done by a computer program), submitted it to the court/retirement plan for review and approval.  I forget which entity came first.  Once it was reviewed and approved by my plan's administrator the DRO became a QDRO (Qualified DRO) and I submitted that to the court.  (If I had left it for my lawyer to handle, he would have charged $1K additional.)

What happened next is probably standard in the industry and protected me from tax consequences.  If a check had been written directly out of my retirement account and she didn't put it into her own retirement account, I would have gotten a huge tax/penalty for her failure.  Instead, the plan created an account for my ex and moved that money over to her account.  Then she was notified of HER account, provided access and it was up to her to leave it there or take it as a distribution or loan.  That way EX was responsible for any taxes or penalties for early withdrawal, not me.  To this day I still don't know what she chose to do with it, but I'm fairly sure she drained it quickly.