When to reach out...

[Mr. Kelly]

Hi all,

I’ve tried searching this on here, with mixed results… So I’ll start this new thread.

Although I’m sure there are no easy answers, I am confused about the best strategy of reaching out after a BPD break up.

I was with my GF for a year and a half, with numerous break ups, all relatively similar.

Many traditional therapist recommend complete no contact with the break up partner, which they say allow them to go through various stages of relief/contemplation/missing you/reaching out. They say the odds of your partner reaching back out to you are significantly higher if you do not contact them under any circumstances, ever... until they reach out to you.

I’ve heard some on here, and elsewhere, say BPD partners are different, and that not checking in with them after some time has passed could be quite detrimental, given that a predominant source of anxiety for BPDs is abandonment.

In my own situation, the break ups usually lasted less than a week, and it was usually her that reached out, angrily, reinforcing the break up. A little negotiation was always able to put things back on the right track.

This time around, not so sure what to do.  Her break up language seems a bit more determined this time around.

The only time I reached out to her after a break up seemed to be a good thing, and it was during the break up prior to this one, because I got the sense that she felt I was willing to be a bit more of the Alpha that time around, and I think that brought her some sort of comfort.  In fact, we had the longest stretch without a break up after that, and things were going relatively well, all things considered.

What would your opinion be? Give her complete control of the break up and go no contact, or wait for a bit and reach out gently?

All thoughts appreciated…

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

My opinion is you have a wise therapist.  Can you help me understand the apparent lack of confidence in the advice from your T?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

My opinion is you have a wise therapist.  Can you help me understand the apparent lack of confidence in the advice from your T?

Best,

FF

Thank you for your response.

The aforementioned therapists that I described are licensed social workers and psychologists that are online Youtubers... and relationship experts.

With “typical“ relationships, they overwhelmingly agree that complete no contact is the way to go, until the partner reaches out to you.  I can get into the details why, but maybe another time.

I have read some people with backgrounds with BPDs that say that indefinite no contact could be counterintuitive, since BPDs  may react badly to that kind of feeling of abandonment.

What do you guys think?

[formflier]

OK..so this is not your personal therapist? 

Do you have a personal therapist?

What is your goal?  Is your goal to win the pwBPD back for the same relationship you had before?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Yes… I do have a personal therapist.

It is surprising, given that she is a PhD psychologist, that she seems to know very little about BPD behavior, Or at least steers clear of going anywhere near it.  I will convey some of the things I have been experiencing, and many of the theories that I have learned on here, and on other BPD sources, and she doesn’t seem to relate.

She can’t figure out how and why I would let someone treat me the way that my GF has, and when I tell her that I try to depersonalize the behavior, because it is not something that the BPD person can control, she seems to think it’s crazy.

As far as what my goal is, well, it certainly isn’t to leave it the way that it is… I don’t really know what my end goal is. I shouldn’t be willing to go back to the way things were, and I guess there is not much chance of anything else, because the likelihood is it changing anytime soon is probably zero.

Of course, there’s a chance, that if I reach out to her, she may be responsive, and slowly, I could rebuild some sort of trust and friendship, but it will likely just circle back around all over again with another break up in a few months from now. Just not sure that’s the right way to go, but the alternative seems so needless and unnecessary.  Clearly, she didn’t think that way, or she wouldn’t have been as hostile and mean and broken up in the way that she did.

So, I am left scratching my head and wondering which way is up.

[formflier]

She can’t figure out how and why I would let someone treat me the way that my GF has, and when I tell her that I try to depersonalize the behavior, because it is not something that the BPD person can control, she seems to think it’s crazy.

 

I think you and your PhD level psychologist need to reopen this subject and hangout there for a bit.

As I read this...I got the vibe that she knows quite a bit about BPD relationships. 

I would encourage you to approach is as "I want to understand these relationships in general...but what part I played in the my relationship with BPD"

I predict you will find lots of insight there...although I also predict much of of it will be uncomfortable.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

As I read this...I got the vibe that she knows quite a bit about BPD relationships.  

I predict you will find lots of insight there...although I also predict much of of it will be uncomfortable.

Best,

FF

I’m actually surprised with how little my Ph.D therapist actually knows about BPD.  

She had no idea what a split was... never heard of charming ... I don’t really think she knows anything about it.

That being said... I’ve researched the crap out of it, been on countless forums and groups, and spoken to hundreds of partners, and numerous folks with BPD.  I have a pretty good grasp on what my part in the relationship is.  

My responses to her behavior haven’t been 100% perfect, but I haven't been a bumbling idiot.  My partner is mostly delusional and suffers from a mental condition.  So do I, but to a much lesser degree.

My interest in this thread was to get ideas about if and when to reach out to her.  She has winced blocked me on social media.  She has done that numerous times before... but this one wasn’t through any sort of fight.  She just ran out of gas to struggle Amy longer.  Sad.

Part of me wants to let her go.  She is a mess and doesn’t think clearly under such stress.  Logic and reason disappear.   That’s no way to find happiness.

[formflier]

It is undeniable that the best way to reconnect is to happily go about your life, reflect and learn your lessons...so that when your pwBPD reaches out...you are ready to  respond in a different and healthier way.

It is possible that sometime in the future you reaching out is wise, be aware that is a fraught path.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Update:

I was trying to mostly move on… and take one step in front of the other, move ahead with my life.  It’s been a tough 10 days.

Not so surprisingly, after 10 days of no contact, a text comes in from her early this morning… I kind of dreaded opening it…

It said the following, “ Sorry that was not a call last night..I was deleting you from my contacts list and hit the phone button..no need to respond..I did not want you to think I called.”

Nice, eh?  I am seeing that she is still trying to hurt me, for whatever God knows what reason. I’ve never said a mean thing to that woman in my life… But that’s how this mental illness works, I guess.

So, I thought about it for a bit… And I texted her back simply, and said, “OK, how are you?“ She was at work, and we exchanged three or four texts, hers with one word answers.

One of my first one said, “Let me know if you would like to say hi sometime.” to which she replied, “OK“.

She is starting a new job on Friday, after 15 years at her current job, which I am wondering might be part of why she is splitting. So, I let the texts go for about six hours, and then finished it up with… “Well... I hope you have a good day on Friday.  It would be good to hear how it goes.  Reach out when you want, ok?”  No response, it’s an hour and a half later now.

What do you guys think? I think I played it well. It’s really up to her now whether she wants to reach out.

Many relationship coaches I have read and watched online have all said that sometimes the one who breaks up will try to contact you for foolish reasons, just to try to get some sort of reaction out of you, or maybe to suck you back in. If she really wanted to, she could have sucked me in a lot more than she did with this exchange, so I suspect she is still in her dark mode…

If I over analyze her first text today, like I usually do, she had no real reason to text me, if I hadn’t called her back (my phone did not show any calls )... And for her to tell me she was deleting my contact information was clearly antagonistic. I guess that tells me she is still thinking about me, and is trying not to. I feel sad for that. It’s completely manufactured in her head.

Thoughts?

[maxsterling]

My very simple advice is to not read anything into her words/texts.  It will only lead to exhaustion and get absolutely nowhere.   You are dealing with an irrational, disordered person. 

You probably played this the best you could.  Respond to the text kindly, asked a "how are you", and then left it up to her to contact you again if she feels up to it.  You have already implied that you would be interested in hearing from her again, so there is nothing more you need to say.   She message you tomorrow.  It could be next week.  It could be 6 months after she has broken up with someone else.  It could be never.  That is not up to you.  As hard as it is, the best thing you can do now is feel this, and go about taking care of you (and possibly enjoy the conflict-free air for the time being )

[formflier]

I don't want to say what you texted was "bad".  I think a better option would have been..

"Oh my...well, I didn't see any missed calls on my end.  Let me know if you need further help working out tech issues." 

Then drop it and wait for her to reach back out..or not.

Best,

FF

[once removed]

it may be easier to think of "no contact" as a strategy for trying to detach...trying to walk away from a relationship.

if you are trying to win someone back, or reverse a breakup, its important to think more in terms of "dont chase" and "give space". this isnt the same as no contact. its about not over pursuing, not smothering.

this is, ultimately stuff that can mislead you if you try to generalize. the context of your relationship and the context of how you broke up is really vital. understanding why you broke up and, if you were to get back together, what you are going to do to make things different, perhaps even more so.

The aforementioned therapists that I described are licensed social workers and psychologists that are online Youtubers... and relationship experts.

ill just say it: generally speaking, people on youtube have no qualifications and are not experts of any kind, and may badly mislead you, as well as obscure what is most important to understand if you want to reconcile your relationship.

She can’t figure out how and why I would let someone treat me the way that my GF has, and when I tell her that I try to depersonalize the behavior, because it is not something that the BPD person can control, she seems to think it’s crazy.

you may have a bad relationship with your therapist, or you may have very unclear goals when it comes to therapy. its hard to say.

generally, a therapist will focus on you. they will tend to give you a wide berth to vent, and will tend to validate you early on to build trust, but your therapist is not going to be able to tell you "what is the best way to get my ex back". a good therapist can help you work through ruminations, can give you good information on bpd if they have it, can help you untangle unhealthy tendencies.

but generally speaking, they will focus on you and your own recovery, your own process; they dont need to be an expert on bpd to do so. i dont usually weigh in on this sort of thing, but if you are having arguments with your therapist about the rightness or wrongness of you loving this person, its probably not a productive relationship. i would reconsider my focus in therapy and/or find another therapist.

the important thing here, as i said before, is the context of your relationship, and untangling what is going on.

My interest in this thread was to get ideas about if and when to reach out to her.  She has winced blocked me on social media.  She has done that numerous times before... but this one wasn’t through any sort of fight.  She just ran out of gas to struggle Amy longer.  Sad.
So, I thought about it for a bit… And I texted her back simply, and said, “OK, how are you?“ She was at work, and we exchanged three or four texts, hers with one word answers.

One of my first one said, “Let me know if you would like to say hi sometime.” to which she replied, “OK“.

She is starting a new job on Friday, after 15 years at her current job, which I am wondering might be part of why she is splitting. So, I let the texts go for about six hours, and then finished it up with… “Well... I hope you have a good day on Friday.  It would be good to hear how it goes.  Reach out when you want, ok?”  No response, it’s an hour and a half later now.

What do you guys think? I think I played it well. It’s really up to her now whether she wants to reach out.

i dont think you are reading the situation. its a really critical part of trying to reconcile a relationship.

there is no way to get back someone whom has blocked you. there is no move, no card to play, but to go underground, to give them a wide berth, to give them space, and hope for the best.

in your case, she may be playing games. its hard to say. but in all cases its best not to chase or over pursue.

if i punched you in the face, would you ask me how ive been? its an extreme analogy/comparison, bear with me.

if someone blocks you, and then sends a message that "i didnt want you to think i tried to contact you", the only thing one can really do with that is "ok. understood" if anything at all. if you send the message that you are trying to reconnect with them, invite them to confide in you, it is telegraphing that you are chasing. if you say "let me know if you want to say hi sometime", and she doesnt respond, and you follow up by essentially asking her to respond, theres no female on this planet that will not be pushed away. it comes off as needy, and its inviting disrespect. thats not a judgment, just take it from a guy that has done his fair share of over pursuing women in his life.

dont push. dont chase. dont pursue this further; the fact is you have shown and played your cards. if shes not done, and a "hey im contacting you to let you know i didnt contact you" is sort of indicative of a person who cant get their head straight, then the remedy is a cool, calm head.

perhaps the most important thing for you and for us to understand: what led to the breakup? how long has it been since you broke up? what was fundamentally broken about your relationship? the energy you have now is best spent on how thats going to be remedied if you got back together.

[Mr. Kelly]

You guys have been all really good, and much of what you say is spot on.

I don’t think this will be fixed. But miracles never cease.

If I have to think back as to what went wrong, at the risk of seeming really blind or arrogant, I don’t think there’s that much. I think I did fairly well at being the best person I could be... positive, supportive, generous with what I have. I just don’t think under the circumstances this woman is capable of seeing anything else other than what she sees. This is her reality, and I don’t think I have any choice but to let her go.

There are two main concepts at play here that she is using to self-destruct:

- she has taken every interaction with my ex-wife that I have had and played that card to its detriment.  My ex-wife and I have a fairly decent relationship, and for the most part, we get along really well. Almost all of our interaction is regarding our 13-year-old daughter, and we coparent at least moderately well. She reaches out to me for advice when things aren’t going well, and I do the same with her. My lady friend doesn’t know the extent of this, all she knows is that we text back-and-forth a fair amount, normally, each day.  I suppose it’s a fairly “modern“ broken family situation, no real hard feelings, but sometimes we disagree and bump heads. I would often share this with my lady friend.

She thinks that me partnering with my ex-wife to get a dog that will be for my 13-year-old daughter is a massive betrayal and inappropriate. She said there is no way that is normal, and that it should’ve been her that I partnered with. What I can’t tell her is that she was not in the mental headspace to be part of that process, and it really didn’t involve her. And she believes that bringing in what is like another family member should involve the significant other, because otherwise shows that I was not thinking of her or a future with her in it.  I could go on and on with countless other examples, but you get the idea.

- The other one, and I’ve hinted at that one above, is that she believes that I have shown time after time that I am not making choices that reflect my interest in having her in it in the future. That’s a tough one.

What I can’t say to her is, how can I possibly make it clear that I want her in my future if her behavior is unstable and unpredictable like this? I was pretty much going slowly and cautiously, often times waiting for the other foot to come down and for her to become unhinged like she is now. In many ways, it was an unwinnable situation, and the conversation that I had with her tonight really shows that.

I have never been so strongly gaslighted, spoken to so poorly, and understood so badly in my entire life. I don’t mean to sound overreactive, but her behavior and demeanor was almost psychotic. She took every last little problem we ever had and turned it into something completely different than how I saw it. I was portrayed as the scumbag of the earth. I almost feel a little traumatized by it. Actually, I feel a lot traumatized by it.

I think it will take a while for me to trust that what I believe in my heart is true. She has so angrily turned things so upside down, and portrayed me in a way that will take a while to heal from, and to let go of. 

I’m just stunned and completely dumbfounded. I’ve never seen her this determined and hostile. If I hear from this girl again, I suspect it will just be more hostility, but who knows, in months from now, when the dust settles, she may start to think differently, but I don’t think so. She’s got a lot of ammunition from her friends, who she says agree with her, and she sees me as being totally incapable of being honest, and that I’m completely in denial about my ex-wife.

And when I hear her speak, I almost understand how she feels, that I completely mishandled the situation. But, the truth is, she is distorting the facts, so I really just have to let it go and try to heal. This will be tough. It’s hard to hear how nasty I am in such a determined way, and not have to think really hard about whether it’s true.

[once removed]

the thing about our loved ones is that they tend express themselves in over the top and distorted ways. but typically, when you can look past that, theres something underlying it that is perfectly valid, as human as anything you or i tend to feel.

- she has taken every interaction with my ex-wife that I have had and played that card to its detriment.  My ex-wife and I have a fairly decent relationship, and for the most part, we get along really well. Almost all of our interaction is regarding our 13-year-old daughter, and we coparent at least moderately well. She reaches out to me for advice when things aren’t going well, and I do the same with her. My lady friend doesn’t know the extent of this, all she knows is that we text back-and-forth a fair amount, normally, each day.  I suppose it’s a fairly “modern“ broken family situation, no real hard feelings, but sometimes we disagree and bump heads. I would often share this with my lady friend.

She thinks that me partnering with my ex-wife to get a dog that will be for my 13-year-old daughter is a massive betrayal and inappropriate. She said there is no way that is normal, and that it should’ve been her that I partnered with. What I can’t tell her is that she was not in the mental headspace to be part of that process, and it really didn’t involve her. And she believes that bringing in what is like another family member should involve the significant other, because otherwise shows that I was not thinking of her or a future with her in it.  I could go on and on with countless other examples, but you get the idea.

people with bpd traits tend to be prone toward jealousy, prone to feeling left out, prone to not feeling prioritized. its not uncommon for a bpd loved one to get kind of hung up on an ex. it happened to me, and i hadnt even spoken to that person in years.

if you read between the lines, what shes saying is that she wants to feel like a greater priority than your ex wife; that she wants to be involved in things like these, and even that she may find aspects of your relationship with your ex to be inappropriate to her. underlying that is a pretty normal, human feeling.

so it isnt about trying to jump through hoops, or over explain yourself. its about listening to what your loved one is really saying, and in the case of a bpd loved one, that can be pretty challenging.

- The other one, and I’ve hinted at that one above, is that she believes that I have shown time after time that I am not making choices that reflect my interest in having her in it in the future. That’s a tough one.

What I can’t say to her is, how can I possibly make it clear that I want her in my future if her behavior is unstable and unpredictable like this?

the long and short of it is that shes right.

look, i felt the same way. i wanted to marry my ex, and at the same time, i was never going to take any steps to do it because of how volatile our relationship was. and eventually, she broke up with me.

what you really have in that situation is a dead end relationship. women, generally speaking, more than men, are very conscious about that kind of thing. the older all of us get, the more marriage and a family become a priority. and its reasonable to feel insecure in that situation. its reasonable to feel resentful. and its human nature, not necessarily in the healthiest ways, to act out in ways to test your love, or to push for commitment, before ultimately starting to realize the relationship isnt going to go further, and to begin to grieve it.

you both have a point of view. theyre both valid, but trickier, is that they conflict, and at a certain point, its hard to make a relationship work with that sort of conflict; eventually, it will break down. reconciling involves not just understanding her point of view (not the same as agreeing with it either, but really getting where shes coming from), but determining how these conflicts can be resolved, if at all.

[Seeleygirl]

Yeah as you said to me - we are really in the same place with our pwBPD so I’m no expert at all but I can respond to a few things that I experienced in the hope that it might help you. My bf and I have been dating nearly 2yrs and in that time, although we never broke up, there were a few times that it could have easily gone that way. On that front, in my experience, my pwBPD needs at least an hour maybe 2 to be left alone once he has had a blow up. His are almost always triggered by some situation that has brought on severe stress/anxiety (not to say these situations would have caused stress/anxiety and a blow up in a nonBPD person but they do for him). If you look at your pwBPD and your break-ups/blow ups I’d be willing to bet there was some sort of something behind it that triggered extreme anxiety so she feels she is justified to act the way she did. My pwBPD had a father with BPD. His mother died when he was still a baby and when his father remarried the woman severely disliked him and mounted a campaign of hate against him which turned him into an Object of Blame with his father (this started as a very young child). As such, any situation which reminds him of what he experienced growing up (someone rolling their eyes, even a casual remark that gives him the impression you don’t think his idea is a good one) can set him off on a tirade. My immediate reaction of course is to try and reassure him that what I just said was absolutely not an attack unfortunately is seen by him as “covering up” to make him feel better, being condescending, changing my argument, etc. I’ve come to learn that in moments like that often times just the fact that I am talking is seen as an argument from his side. It can be very difficult because he wants me to stop talking but he has no trouble going on at length berating me for not being supporting or for trying to tell him what to do, or not listening to him (that is a big one) etc. Just be aware that this is exactly what they are feeling - your pwBPD probably isn’t trying to be mean on purpose she is actually experiencing the emotions although they are not appropriate to the situation she probably doesn’t realize that. That being said, there is no excuse for the way a pwBPD treats people sometimes. It is terrible and mean and it wears on you mentally. The only reason I’m still here is that I’m a very strong person mentally and I know who I am. I’m not someone who has still to “find themselves” or need someone to complete or validate them. I was single for many years before this relationship and was perfectly happy at it. From the beginning I knew there was probably some mental health issues with my bf and so I set some boundaries in my mind that if he ever strayed into certain areas (infidelity, violence etc) I would end it so I basically stay in it because I still love him and I love the company and companionship he provides me when he’s “OK”. I’m still struggling with whether I’m deluded when it comes to thinking that it will last but he did have a 10yr relationship prior to this and he is still in contact with her. They msg often and seem to be totally OK with where they are so there’s that. That being said he is COMPLETELY intolerant of my previous relationships even though they were many years ago. He has a lot of trouble with “double standards” and can’t see that he expects me to be understanding of situations with him that he would never tolerate with me. Most of our early arguments were about my previous relationships. It took us a long time to get through that period but I think I’ve come to figure it out. First of all he has extreme self loathing and in our early days often remarked that I was completely out of his league and he didn’t know why I was with him. They way he compensates for that when he feels that anxiety strongly is to overcompensate with testosterone and exhibits some pretty bad “toxic masculinity”. It is very upsetting because this is not the person that he is but in his mind, when he feels demasculated, he needs to overcompensate in the other direction in order to get some sort of confidence back in his life. I understand it from a psychological standpoint but it is very hard to deal with. Anyway, not sure if any of these anecdotes can help but I thought I’d throw them out there so that you don’t blame yourself when your pwBPD is blaming you for things that you didn’t do and you can’t understand why. Just know it is most likely their way of compensating for their own shortcomings not yours.

[Mr. Kelly]

Yeah as you said to me - we are really in the same place with our pwBPD sod Anyway, not sure if any of these anecdotes can help but I thought I’d throw them out there so that you don’t blame yourself when your pwBPD is blaming you for things that you didn’t do and you can’t understand why. Just know it is most likely their way of compensating for their own shortcomings not yours.

Wow… It sounds like your situation is very much like mine. I really appreciate your input. Everyone’s input, really.

I don’t see a lot of hope, really. If there were only one or two things that had happened in the last 1.75 years that I’ve been with her, it might be able to be salvaged… But she has a whole laundry list of infractions, mostly regarding my ex-wife, and my inability to move on from her, and my inability to invite my GF to live in my house, as we had talked about a year ago.

I have no misgivings about not inviting her into my house, since.  I thought we had already agreed to take it one step at a time and one day at a time, so little did I know she was keeping track… But more importantly, I am confident enough in my own decision making to realize that inviting her into this house (considering that we couldn’t be together more than about six weeks before she had a major implosion and basically told me to go to hell) would be a poor decision at best. I couldn’t bring that into my house, particularly with my young daughter. Just can’t do it.

That being said, I was hoping for a future with her.  I could envision it, and I could value that happening someday, and I told that to her a million times, even though we hadn’t talked about her moving in for many months.  That’s why most of her current tirade is so saddening to me.

I have gotten much much better at not arguing with her, and not trying to validate my own perspectives on things, but I slip in the tiniest way once in a while, and I can tell that it affects her. It goes on her laundry list.

I think she has been waiting for an “a ha!“ moment to give her ammunition to push me away like this, and our last major infraction gave her just that. I became intolerant of her splitting one night, and basically asked her several times if I should drive her home… since she seemed to not want to be at my house. She got worse and worse, until eventually she went up and packed her bags and left, never to return. We struggled for about the next 10 days, but then I didn’t see her for much of the week, and then came the dreaded letter, going point by point through all the infractions over the last 1.75 years, and clearly stating that because of all these there is no way she can continue. And it got nasty as the Conversation continued. I didn’t try to argue anything out, but I did try to reason… I told her that I loved her, and that I absolutely did see her in my future, and I began to list all the beautiful things that I find about her and all the great things that we did together that were meaningful to me. I gave colorful descriptions, and examples. She called me a liar. Disingenuous. Said that I’m good at words but that’s it. It went on and on.  Clearly, as she said, she doesn’t trust me and thinks there are reasons that I am stringing her along, and she’s right. I don’t trust her, either. I’m walking on eggshells quite often and I am waiting for the next break up. That’s no way to live.

That’s why, I’m going completely no contact forever, until or unless she reaches out to me with some sort of different narrative.

However, I say that, but I have no idea what I will feel next week or week after, or whether in a month I will feel differently about it.

What do you suggest I do? I do really care about this girl and love her dearly, but I have to also protect my own mental health. She sucked me into this vortex, and I want to be there for her, but how can I when she’s tossing hand grenades constantly in my direction?

I do know that at least for now she is in no condition to want to speak to me, probably anytime soon. Who knows what the future might bring, though. That’s really sad, given that my last 20 exchanges With her were simply my gentle reminders to her that I love her and that I want the best for her. As I read more on here, that likely feels like pressure to her, though, which is why I think I’m going no contact for an extended period of time… But who knows.

Thoughts?

[formflier]

That’s why, I’m going completely no contact forever, until or unless she reaches out to me with some sort of different narrative.

 

A big picture thing to realize. 

Focus VERY LITTLE on her narrative.   Focus VERY MUCH on her actions.

I would guess you would agree that part of the perplexing nature of these relationships and people is the vast difference between what they say they will do and believe...and what they actually do.

You probably also noticed lots of excuses for why those things don't match...lots of blame towards you and others about what they were not able to do.


Best,

FF

[Seeleygirl]

Ugh our SOs could be the same person in a different gender. I’m so sorry you’re going through this I can relate very much. Having read everything on here in the last few days I’m inclined to say keep things where they are and let her go. I know that’s not what you want to hear - it’s not what I want to hear either, believe me - my only benefit is things are good with my pwBPD right now... well on the outside anyway. I say you may want to just let her go now because the hardest/most painful part is over and now comes the just dull painful part that will go on for a while. Will she initiate contact again? Probably. Could you end up back where you were in a happy place again? Maybe. But will it dissolve again in a similar fashion? You can probably bet on it. I’m so sorry I know that’s not what you want. My pwBPD is a wonderful person but his issues are very similar to your pwBPD.  He is absolutely and completely intolerant of my past relationships - he constantly berates them as being idiots and needles at me at length as to why would I ever date them and then wants to punish me for even entertaining seeing them (even though they were all many years before I ever met him). As I mentioned earlier these were the sole topic of all of our “arguments” in the early years. He went on and on about why did I sleep with them so easily, all they wanted was sex and I should have seen that and basically making me out to be some sort of whore even though I had very few relationships and all quite a while ago. He would show up at my house unannounced to try and see if I was cheating on him. He went on at length that he has never once slept with someone just for sex and insinuated that I had (even though I hadn’t). I suspected after a while that he was projecting his disappointment with himself in this regard but this wasn’t confirmed until about a month ago. Quite by accident I discovered that he had been with 2 women just around the time we were getting together and they were most definitely just for sex. He lied because he said the last person he slept with was his last girlfriend and he totally left these 2 people out. It hurt so badly to realize how much he had been lying to me all this time and not only that but projecting his disappointment with himself in this regard and heeping it on me. I haven’t brought it up though because I know he would just deny it absolutely and things would blow up again, but the other day one of his former friends sent me a message that he was trolling around social media trying to get people to send him boobie pics and one of the people he was after was one of the people he had been with just before we got together. And this was when things were going relatively well for us. It’s really devastating. Just that very morning he had used the phrase with me (when speaking about one of my past relationships where I was friends with someone when I was still someone else) as “setting the stage for cheating”.  I’m not sure if he would actually cheat but now I’m beginning to wonder. I am going off of the mindset right now that he was feeling vulnerable because things were not in a good place just before this (read “he had had a blow up for no reason and blamed it on me”) and so he was setting up having someone to go to (even if just for sex) in case our relationship went bad. We were in a pandemic so I figured I was relatively safe from actual cheating but who knows now. Frankly I no longer trust him as far as I can throw him.
For the first part of our relationship he went on at length about how he was so sick of being alone and just wanted someone in his life to always be there and help him. He talked at length about how he was going to marry me and to expect a ring around the 1yr mark. Well when the 1yr mark came around (just before it) he fabricated an argument out of nothing and then has used that as an excuse as to why our not getting along had really hit him hard and he was having trouble dealing with it. Not that I care about getting married and now am frankly glad he never did ask but I’m quite sure this whole thing is about trying to trap me so he won’t be alone anymore, but then getting afraid as the time comes up and then his anxiety kicks in and instead blames the whole issue on me. I’m quite sure this is what happened with his 10yr relationship that eventually dissolved as well. He told me she cheated on him but I’m beginning to suspect now that it was probably the reverse. My guess is he really wants a good and loving relationship but has such anxiety over everyone in his life rejecting him that he can’t bear the thought of being rejected again so fabricates things in his mind so that he can be the one to do the “pre-emptive rejection”. I suspect then he has time to think about things and then eventually settles down but keeps these things (the laundry lists as you mention) in his back pocket so he can use them again in the future if he feels like he’s about to be rejected. And I suspect it is these things he will use in the future to validate his cheating if it ever gets to that stage (which I honestly think it probably will if it hasn’t already). We didn’t move in together but I ended up buying a house about 2 minutes away so that we could be closer and I could help him with his business, which I do now, so we are together almost all the time. That was a very traumatic time for us because he got very antsy about the move - telling me he never asked for it and it was “all on me”, and was very upset and distant during the whole process. We had to stay with him for a few weeks before I could take possession of my house and at the beginning he acted like we totally imposed on him (even though we’d discussed the whole thing before hand and he was all for it) but when it came to having to move out of his house and into mine he acted like I’d “moved out on him” and this was the end of our relationship. It took nearly a week before he would even come to visit the house let alone stay the night. Things are good now but it was touch and go for a while. The thing was the whole experienced turned me into an Object of Blame and I was sure there for awhile that I’d never turn that around. He was really terrible to me and it was very hard. But that was when the “boobie pic” thing took place and when I finally told him that someone had sent me a message telling me what he was doing he changed completely. He went back to his “old self” and has been really wonderful ever since. He never admitted to doing it (although he didn’t deny it either - he just avoided the issue and insisted he’d never cheated). I suspect the only reason this worked is because he couldn’t be mad at me as I wasn’t the one who had sent the msg so I wasn’t his OOB. He deleted a bunch of his friends and social media apps because he didn’t know who had sent me the message. He was literally sick to his stomach when I told him about it so I know he doesn’t take the whole thing lightly I just think he can’t help himself. He needs a lot of different people to bolster his perception that he is loved, even though he constantly states he doesn’t care about anyone’s opinion but mine. I think he just literally can’t get enough love. Most of his past girlfriends he has gone back to at some point to mend fences. I suspect even in the early days of our relationship if his exgf (the 10yr one) had indicated she wanted to get back together he probably would have jumped at the chance. I think this is out of familiarity and not sure what would “come up” with me in the future that he didn’t know about. So your pwBPD may indeed want to come back into your life but you have to ask yourself why? Is she just mending fences so that she can say “see - I can’t be all that bad because I’m still friends with him”? Is she just mending fences so that she has someone else in her life to bolster her confidence? And more importantly, has she gone to someone else in the meantime to get what she needs when she wasn’t getting it from you? Sorry - I know that’s not what you want to hear but in my experience that is definitely a thing

[Seeleygirl]

I’m sorry - my last post wasn’t very positive was it? I wish there was some sort of medication for this thing and we’d all be saved. How are things going?

[Mr. Kelly]

I’m sorry - my last post wasn’t very positive was it? I wish there was some sort of medication for this thing and we’d all be saved. How are things going?

Seeley... thank you for checking in on me. It means a lot.

I just wrote you a lengthy private message, in an effort to not overindulge the kind folks on here… Be forewarned, it’s pathetically long…

[formflier]

Hey Mr Kelly,

Now that you have been in this thread for a bit, what do you think about your question of "when to reach out?"

What have you learned that surprised you?

What do you agree with?

What do you disagree with?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Hey Mr Kelly,

Now that you have been in this thread for a bit, what do you think about your question of "when to reach out?"

What have you learned that surprised you?

What do you agree with?

What do you disagree with?

Best,

FF

Thanks for your question FF…

I don’t think there is an easy solution to the question of when to reach out, really.  Part of me thinks that if I want to make her feel validated and wanted, I should reach out. Part of me thinks that it’s up to her to decide if she wants to continue and reach out.  She knows where I stand. Not sure she believes I am capable of giving her what she wants. She may be right.

The bottom line, is that we are dealing with two people with different kinds of mental capacity. I have my own psychological needs, and so does she. They aren’t meeting. That’s just the bottom line.  There is nothing that I can do to “will“ her into being what I want her to be. She has to choose to come to the table. I have to choose to let her be who she is. I’m not sure I can do that, especially the way things are now and the way they’ve been going.

To what once removed said earlier, it is valid to her to feel insecure about my ex-wife. I don’t know how to validate that when I know it’s just simply not true. Much of what she says is not true, so I guess I can validate it by trying to understand her feelings… But that conflicts with my own needs. My own needs are to be with someone who trusts what I tell them and is willing to move forward, despite what might seem to them to be true.

She is currently incapable of doing that, which turns me black. I just think that it’s a disconnect that almost has no connect, if that makes any sense.

I have always been open to hearing what she has to say, responding with care and thoughtfulness, but that doesn’t seem enough. She seems to want me to tell her what she says is valid. How do I do that when I know it’s not true?

I think for me to make her feel validated, there would have to be continued conversation, and I’m not sure that she is currently capable of having that kind of conversation. Maybe in the future, when she has calmed down quite a bit, who knows.  Not sure if that will ever happen. I think she’s just done. Based on what she believes that is in her head, I wouldn’t blame her. But I do.

As for the other parts of your question… That might have to be for another day.

[Mr. Kelly]

people with bpd traits tend to be prone toward jealousy, prone to feeling left out, prone to not feeling prioritized. its not uncommon for a bpd loved one to get kind of hung up on an ex. it happened to me, and i hadnt even spoken to that person in years.

if you read between the lines, what shes saying is that she wants to feel like a greater priority than your ex wife; that she wants to be involved in things like these, and even that she may find aspects of your relationship with your ex to be inappropriate to her. underlying that is a pretty normal, human feeling. 

the long and short of it is that shes right.

what you really have in that situation is a dead end relationship. women, generally speaking, more than men, are very conscious about that kind of thing. the older all of us get, the more marriage and a family become a priority. and its reasonable to feel insecure in that situation. its reasonable to feel resentful. and its human nature, not necessarily in the healthiest ways, to act out in ways to test your love, or to push for commitment, before ultimately starting to realize the relationship isnt going to go further, and to begin to grieve it.

you both have a point of view. theyre both valid, but trickier, is that they conflict, and at a certain point, its hard to make a relationship work with that sort of conflict; eventually, it will break down. reconciling involves not just understanding her point of view (not the same as agreeing with it either, but really getting where shes coming from), but determining how these conflicts can be resolved, if at all.

Thank you, once removed…

I have been thinking about some of what you have said over the last few days…

You see… Here is the conundrum.… She is not really “right“. My interest was and has always been to have her as part of my future, living in my house as a partner, and even a musical partner. That would be fabulous.

There has always been one big problem. Her instability.  That’s been the biggest problem I have encountered. Her mental health.

If she hadn’t been displaying this kind of instability, I bet things would have gone in a very different direction.

With that being said, however, the truth to what you say is that there is still a disconnect. I can’t invite her to move forward until and unless her mental health changes. She still wants what she wants. I suppose that’s a disconnect.

We are not speaking at this point, anyway, so I am wondering if this is all moot.  Our longest break up was three weeks, and that was over a year ago. She reached out at the 3 1/2 week point with another nasty text, validating that I obviously didn’t care about her because I hadn’t contacted her. Well, she told me not to.

This whole break up routine that she is in can’t continue. I can’t go on like that over and over again.

[formflier]

This whole break up routine that she is in can’t continue. I can’t go on like that over and over again.

And...I hope you realize this is 100% in your power.  She doesn't get a vote in this decision. 

Do you "see it" that way?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

And...I hope you realize this is 100% in your power.  She doesn't get a vote in this decision. 

Do you "see it" that way?

Best,

FF

Well, as in when we have to deal with any BPD, it’s very complicated. Anytime I set boundaries, I risk a split, and often a potential break up.

It could be probably theorized that her breaking up with me this time around was because I was showing independent thinking, which she interpreted as me moving ahead with my life without her.

I haven’t seen her in three weeks, so I am not sure if I will be able to try again, or not.

Me not reaching out and contacting her this time around is a little bit of a way of setting my boundary. If she responds favorably, maybe we can work something out. It’s my guess she won’t reach out. 

[formflier]

Well, as in when we have to deal with any BPD, it’s very complicated. Anytime I set boundaries, I risk a split, and often a potential break up.

 

Yes...but...

Don't overly complicate this.

There is no option for you to get your boundaries and her to not have hers.  If they don't align..they don't.

You can't force her to do anything she doesn't agree to.

She can't force you to do anything you don't agree to.

If you want your boundaries...and her to stay an accept them without issue...that's unlikely to happen.  You can't have it all.

It is possible that once she realizes there is a new you...she may come back under different terms.

Best,

FF