Clinging to Hope - Looking for Advicre

[Depression = 72% of members]

My story feels long lurid. About two years ago, I began a relationship with my now ex pwBPD (diagnosed/DBT treatment), and it started off with a classic idealization of me for 6-9 months.

We faced some critical challenges off the bat:

• She and I are 19 years apart in age (I am 43; she is 24)
• I was married at the time with the desire to separate and divorce, but I had not yet begun that process
• I left the impression that I was separated, but I had not gotten up the guts to start the divorce process.
• She consistently was urging me to accelerate the divorce process.
• By the end of the Summer 2019, she relocated to start a new job about 3 states away, and we attempted to maintain a long distance relationship.

I was her confidante, advisor, and supporter, helping her manage a number of problems in her challenging new teaching job. We saw each other throughout the long distance, and we had incredible chemistry. We bonded during the idealization period, and I struggled with giving her up or leaving my wife (which I eventually did).

When the pandemic hit, and we went into lockdown, she begged and pleaded me to visit her, because she felt so alone (i.e., she was living by herself) and was clearly spinning emotionally. I told that I could not leave my son during a lockdown, as he wouldn’t understand (true) nor could I reasonably inform my son’s mother that I was leaving during a lockdown (true). My pwBPD broke up with me for a single day - and unbeknownst to me until later - cheated on me with a coworker. By June 2020, we rolled the dice, I visited her and took a weekend grip away together. There, she confronted me about my the truth of my relationship, and I confessed. In turn, she verbally abused me, physically abused me, and then attempted to extort me re: telling my wife at the time. The fallout was pretty bad for about two weeks, and she insisted on No-Contact (NC) for a month.

She went into a downward spiral: drinking and smoking heavily each day, stopped taking her anti-anxiety and mood-adjustment medications, and even wrote a scathing, expletive-laden letter to her school district’s superintendent about how ridiculous it was to return to teaching during Covid (almost got her fired).

She broke her NC with me, agreed to meet, and told me that she forgave me and wanted me back. I agreed to reconcile and committed to separate (which I’ve done) and divorce (in process). I agreed to seek more active mental health therapy and take an anti-depressant, too.

By September, I found out about her cheating during lockdown as well as with another man during our reconciliation period. She was sending explicit sexual texts to him right up until the day before I visited her in Sept! Meanwhile, she was telling me loving things and actively seeking to reconcile. I was very confused and grew very upset; yet, I had become codependent and “forgave” the cheating in words. But my behavior changed like I had never done before: becoming mildly controlling and very suspicious of her.

We began planning a future together, sharing our relationship needs, and got closer. We both agreed to entered couples therapy in late 2020, and we carried on through February.

Subsequently, I visited her in February and discovered that she was considering allowing an “ex-flame” to visit her, and I reacted in an angry and violent manner. (I detest any kind of misogyny and violence in my life; so, it was so uncharacteristic of me that I now see how I had become emotionally unregulated b/c of my codependency and weakness. I have increased my therapy, set ambitious but realistic goals for me, and feel like I can improve myself.) We continued our couples therapy and tried to move past the event, though it was clearly weighing heavily on her. But the weight of the two trust events were too much, and she broke up with me during a couples therapy session a week later - citing an unhealthy relationship.

In the days leading up the break-up, she was kinder, sweeter, and more loving than ever. I was so confused by the break-up, followed by her request for NC, that I was denial and bargaining grief modes with her. I violated NC repeatedly on my part out of desperation, trying to win her back. She was angry with me for violating her boundary but eventually unblocked me.

After three weeks ago, I convinced her to consider switching from a break-up to a “relationship break” as we processed our grief and figured how we would improve ourselves. We couldn’t agree, because she would not agree to be remaining exclusive with me. In essence, she said that she would just wind up breaking my heart again.

About two weeks ago, we agreed to end the relationship due to the differences, but she would keep saying that “I cannot be in relationship right now.” When pressed on “right now,” she would mention that she wanted to “end up with you, because after all we’ve been through, I still want to be with you.” This mind:cursing: has really unsettled me. She insists that she is not giving a future with me, but she is not “emotionally ready.”

A week ago, after reading here and elsewhere, I told her that going NC was the right thing to do. I have apologized sincerely and repeatedly for my past actions; forgiven her for the (past) cheating due to my actions, her impulse control issues, and BPD; and agreed that NC will help us both heal.

Then, on Sunday, returning from a trip to Miami, she called me at the airport near where I live - begging me to let her stay over b/c she had nowhere else to go for the night. After initially keeping my boundary with her, I relented and let her stay. Nothing happened sexually/intimately, and she spoke almost “normal” with me otherwise. In fact, she asked me to hug her, snuggle with me on the couch as we watched TV, etc. We discussed our relationship issues, too, and she told me that she still could not be in a relationship with me “right now.” I told her later that day I could no longer hold out hope that we would get back together, b/c it was impairing my ability to heal and move forward.

We texted after her return, and she told me that she didn’t want me to give up. But she was unable to offer me any tangible plans for her grieving, recovery, etc.

I have come to understand that a) she has not processed her trust issues with me; b) she cannot guarantee that she won’t act impulsively again and cheat on me; and c) she needs to process what is happening, but it is “going slowly” (which is what happened with pwBPD). We agreed that she is seeking to trust herself first (i.e., control her BPD/impulses better), and then perhaps willing to learn to trust me again. In speaking with her, she is clearly in the denial/depression phase of grieving with some suppressed anger and sad. I am almost my way to acceptance, and I realize how out of synch we are.

I ruminate and obsess about her almost daily. I harbor strong feelings for her still, and while I am confident of my journey forward - how I will improve my emotional self-regulation, restore my confidence (i.e., no longer be codependent and weak), and ultimately make myself happy again - I am so afraid of her journey forward as I want this reconciliation quite a bit: I want to give this relationship its due respect that it deserves, instead of BS that I started it out with.

My question to this fantastic group of supportive non-BPD partners is this:
- Should I maintain NC for an indefinite amount of time?
- What if she contacts me? How should I respond?
- How long does it take for a pwBPD to typically process her grief and trauma?
- Am I fooling myself that she will ever be able to trust me again? That “hope” is something worth having at all
- Should I believe her that she wants to be with me “in the end” - even if that is so vague and intangible?

I know that I’m omitting a lot of details, believe it or not, but I would be keen on hearing this group’s thoughts.  Thank you!

[skaman24]

My story feels long lurid. About two years ago, I began a relationship with my now ex pwBPD (diagnosed/DBT treatment), and it started off with a classic idealization of me for 6-9 months.

We faced some critical challenges off the bat:

• She and I are 19 years apart in age (I am 43; she is 24)
• I was married at the time with the desire to separate and divorce, but I had not yet begun that process
• I left the impression that I was separated, but I had not gotten up the guts to start the divorce process.
• She consistently was urging me to accelerate the divorce process.
• By the end of the Summer 2019, she relocated to start a new job about 3 states away, and we attempted to maintain a long distance relationship.

I was her confidante, advisor, and supporter, helping her manage a number of problems in her challenging new teaching job. We saw each other throughout the long distance, and we had incredible chemistry. We bonded during the idealization period, and I struggled with giving her up or leaving my wife (which I eventually did).

When the pandemic hit, and we went into lockdown, she begged and pleaded me to visit her, because she felt so alone (i.e., she was living by herself) and was clearly spinning emotionally. I told that I could not leave my son during a lockdown, as he wouldn’t understand (true) nor could I reasonably inform my son’s mother that I was leaving during a lockdown (true). My pwBPD broke up with me for a single day - and unbeknownst to me until later - cheated on me with a coworker. By June 2020, we rolled the dice, I visited her and took a weekend grip away together. There, she confronted me about my the truth of my relationship, and I confessed. In turn, she verbally abused me, physically abused me, and then attempted to extort me re: telling my wife at the time. The fallout was pretty bad for about two weeks, and she insisted on No-Contact (NC) for a month.

She went into a downward spiral: drinking and smoking heavily each day, stopped taking her anti-anxiety and mood-adjustment medications, and even wrote a scathing, expletive-laden letter to her school district’s superintendent about how ridiculous it was to return to teaching during Covid (almost got her fired).

She broke her NC with me, agreed to meet, and told me that she forgave me and wanted me back. I agreed to reconcile and committed to separate (which I’ve done) and divorce (in process). I agreed to seek more active mental health therapy and take an anti-depressant, too.

By September, I found out about her cheating during lockdown as well as with another man during our reconciliation period. She was sending explicit sexual texts to him right up until the day before I visited her in Sept! Meanwhile, she was telling me loving things and actively seeking to reconcile. I was very confused and grew very upset; yet, I had become codependent and “forgave” the cheating in words. But my behavior changed like I had never done before: becoming mildly controlling and very suspicious of her.

We began planning a future together, sharing our relationship needs, and got closer. We both agreed to entered couples therapy in late 2020, and we carried on through February.

Subsequently, I visited her in February and discovered that she was considering allowing an “ex-flame” to visit her, and I reacted in an angry and violent manner. (I detest any kind of misogyny and violence in my life; so, it was so uncharacteristic of me that I now see how I had become emotionally unregulated b/c of my codependency and weakness. I have increased my therapy, set ambitious but realistic goals for me, and feel like I can improve myself.) We continued our couples therapy and tried to move past the event, though it was clearly weighing heavily on her. But the weight of the two trust events were too much, and she broke up with me during a couples therapy session a week later - citing an unhealthy relationship.

In the days leading up the break-up, she was kinder, sweeter, and more loving than ever. I was so confused by the break-up, followed by her request for NC, that I was denial and bargaining grief modes with her. I violated NC repeatedly on my part out of desperation, trying to win her back. She was angry with me for violating her boundary but eventually unblocked me.

After three weeks ago, I convinced her to consider switching from a break-up to a “relationship break” as we processed our grief and figured how we would improve ourselves. We couldn’t agree, because she would not agree to be remaining exclusive with me. In essence, she said that she would just wind up breaking my heart again.

About two weeks ago, we agreed to end the relationship due to the differences, but she would keep saying that “I cannot be in relationship right now.” When pressed on “right now,” she would mention that she wanted to “end up with you, because after all we’ve been through, I still want to be with you.” This mind:cursing: has really unsettled me. She insists that she is not giving a future with me, but she is not “emotionally ready.”

A week ago, after reading here and elsewhere, I told her that going NC was the right thing to do. I have apologized sincerely and repeatedly for my past actions; forgiven her for the (past) cheating due to my actions, her impulse control issues, and BPD; and agreed that NC will help us both heal.

Then, on Sunday, returning from a trip to Miami, she called me at the airport near where I live - begging me to let her stay over b/c she had nowhere else to go for the night. After initially keeping my boundary with her, I relented and let her stay. Nothing happened sexually/intimately, and she spoke almost “normal” with me otherwise. In fact, she asked me to hug her, snuggle with me on the couch as we watched TV, etc. We discussed our relationship issues, too, and she told me that she still could not be in a relationship with me “right now.” I told her later that day I could no longer hold out hope that we would get back together, b/c it was impairing my ability to heal and move forward.

We texted after her return, and she told me that she didn’t want me to give up. But she was unable to offer me any tangible plans for her grieving, recovery, etc.

I have come to understand that a) she has not processed her trust issues with me; b) she cannot guarantee that she won’t act impulsively again and cheat on me; and c) she needs to process what is happening, but it is “going slowly” (which is what happened with pwBPD). We agreed that she is seeking to trust herself first (i.e., control her BPD/impulses better), and then perhaps willing to learn to trust me again. In speaking with her, she is clearly in the denial/depression phase of grieving with some suppressed anger and sad. I am almost my way to acceptance, and I realize how out of synch we are.

I ruminate and obsess about her almost daily. I harbor strong feelings for her still, and while I am confident of my journey forward - how I will improve my emotional self-regulation, restore my confidence (i.e., no longer be codependent and weak), and ultimately make myself happy again - I am so afraid of her journey forward as I want this reconciliation quite a bit: I want to give this relationship its due respect that it deserves, instead of BS that I started it out with.

My question to this fantastic group of supportive non-BPD partners is this:
- Should I maintain NC for an indefinite amount of time?
- What if she contacts me? How should I respond?
- How long does it take for a pwBPD to typically process her grief and trauma?
- Am I fooling myself that she will ever be able to trust me again? That “hope” is something worth having at all
- Should I believe her that she wants to be with me “in the end” - even if that is so vague and intangible?

I know that I’m omitting a lot of details, believe it or not, but I would be keen on hearing this group’s thoughts.  Thank you!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s hard to predict someone’s behavior, with or without BPD. However with BPD, there is much more inconsistency.

Typically people see the best in someone with BPD during the beginning, with the idealization phase. As more intimacy develops, the problems begin to show themselves.

Know that whatever you are hoping for in this relationship, it will be conflicted and difficult at times. Smooth sailing is unlikely with a partner who has BPD.

[Puchiko]

Combine the age gap with the fact that BPDs are already very immature and in many ways might always remain like children, and I certainly don't envy the level of difficulty you have here. It may not be impossible to make it work, but it seems like you've got a lot of situations here in general that have raised the challenge of this relationship through the roof. Godspeed in that regard, my friend.

When it comes to No Contact, it's a bit complicated when dealing with pwBPD since NC can sometimes simply make them feel they were better without you to begin with, or forget what they ever saw in you -- you see, a lack of object constancy can sometimes mean that when you're not there, it may in some cases be like you don't exist. My own partner with BPD has suggested things like time apart or breaks in the past, but the one time I actually accepted it, it nearly destroyed what we had left.

Something you need to be prepared for in the long term is that she may, potentially, always be the same person she is now. She might change, but you can't depend on it or make much in terms of active steps to change her, outside of not enabling. Any real change in her is going to primarily come from herself. All you can really do is be the best you that you can be.

However, naturally this means that you need to consider whether you'd be okay being in a relationship with her even if she does cheat again, or other behaviors that you may not like about her. In the long term, you can only ever take her at her word in anything (this includes her saying that she wants to be with you), because you'll never fully be able to get inside her head and know with certainty what she's thinking.

So, my personal take on your questions, although I feel they possibly "aren't the right questions". I may not be the best qualified to answer these, I'm frankly pretty new here myself, but I'm going to try. Still, I'm not a therapist. This is only friendly advice and I would feel uncomfortable if you followed it blindly.
-How long you feel NC is needed on your end is entirely up to you. Don't prolong it artificially IMO. Stretching it out may harm more than help.
-If/when she reaches out, then she's probably had enough of the NC and is still thinking of you, so it may mean it's time, as long as you feel you can handle it. But don't assume she'll necessarily reach out.
-From what I've seen, most people with disorders like BPD process grief and trauma very slowly. But they're also still very much human. Each one of them is a bit different. There's no clear answer to this.
-No one can directly give you the hope you're seeking here. Bear in mind that trust is hard to build in general, and even moreso for people with BPD. If you do nothing further to betray it and are able to be strong and consistent, you maximize your chances of rebuilding a proper trust between the two of you.
-If you want to be with her, all you can do is take her at her word.
As Cat Familiar said, it's hard to predict someone's behavior. I would add my own thoughts that in some regards, trying too hard to do so can lead down a slippery slope into manipulation -- best to forget the idea of knowing with certainty what she's feeling. Stick to believing what she's told you, if you're serious about this. That kind of thing is, in part, what trust is all about.

I would strongly suggest reading through the library sections of the forum. They have a lot of very useful skills and information that can help you make sense of things. You aren't alone -- I myself am trying to piece back together my damaged relationship in a healthier way that is free of co-dependence. Being free of co-dependence however means that you must be able to take care of yourself. A journey of self-improvement is definitely a good choice.

YOU are the only factor you will ever fully have control of, so you should always keep yourself at the top of your list. This doesn't mean being selfish, but remembering that you can't and shouldn't try to control her is important. I mention that primarily because my own experience taught me mistakes like that are easy to make. But you can control YOU. She may or may not decide to be with you in the end, but if you always keep working on yourself, you'll always come out of the situation better in some way despite the variable of having or losing her.

Whatever you may do, you have to remember that devoting yourself to this will mean accepting all of the possibilities, including the worst ones, and taking the steps you can to deal with all of it in a healthy way and stay safe. It can involve a lot of sacrifice by its own right. There are things you can do to protect yourself and minimize conflict, but things on her end might always contain a lot of what bad you've already gone through with her. Are you prepared for that kind of possibility if she does come back to you?

[skaman24]

So, my personal take on your questions, although I feel they possibly "aren't the right questions"

Puchiko, thank you for your thoughtful and thought-provoking response. I am starting to use the tools here to help with my codependent habits that I have developed in this relationship. I am also reading literature elsewhere that is helping me address other habits that I’ve developed over the course of my life - manipulative language and my own emotional dysregulation, which have plagued me for much longer. I loathe to use the word “narcissism” in a forum like this one, but I realize that I have had those traits, but the word is so loaded (think: BPD a decade(?) or so ago) even if applicable to me.

I am curious about what the “right questions” are. Or are you asking me them in the rest of your post? That is, what am I willing to accept: the possibility that the relationship is lost for good; if she recycles the relationship, what will I be able to tolerate (e.g., cheating); etc.

I am really at a loss here. I accept the pain of this break-up, since I have played a significant role in causing it; yet, I am not yet at a point of acceptance of losing her. I know that I need to do so to move forward, addressing my own shortcomings, and overall improve myself - whether she returns or not.

We now have maintained NC for less than a week, and I have resisted my urges to break my boundary. Seems so silly to write that, but it’s been challenging.