Current struggles

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Thanks FF.  It is but no recognition that rage texting was making anything worse.

How’d your mom’s appointment go?

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks FF.  It is but no recognition that rage texting was making anything worse.

How’d your mom’s appointment go?

[UBPDHelp]

Now, here’s where I could use some strategic help.

Coming off yesterday which calmed down. Didn’t speak today, just kept distance.

We’re taking a trip, which seems mostly not a good idea. He played it as D needs surgery and after the last year she should get a vacay before. Truthfully it seems reasonable in other circumstances (even though I think it was just a ploy to take a vacay).  I agreed for my D, separate rooms.  

By refusing, risk blowing him up while trying to navigate treatment/surgery for daughter. I didn’t envision being here at this time and trying to muster energy to focus. And feeling defeated b/c there’s always one more thing…but this is a big one.

Tonight I sent a quick, pleasant question about S.  He replied and then followed with…

     I want to have dinner with D/S 3x week and 4x every other week.


We have not eaten together since January (a meal here or there like 2x). I have never stopped him. He said this once before about S (not D) and did absolutely nothing. Never said it or asked again.

Never followed through. I’m not opposed to it. D really is in a bad place with him. She can see right through that there is an issue. I do struggle with validating her feelings and not wanting her to feel unloved by him.  He does I guess in his own way. I guess. Some would argue that it doesn’t constitute love. I do try to focus her on us but he does do things to poke around.

Anyway…what is a good response?

Okay, sounds good. Then see what he does?  

Say nothing. No affirmative, no negative?  See what he does.

With D likely not having surgery this summer, toying with canceling the trip. He may try to go with them and don’t love that. D3 doesn’t want to take the trip with him but is now looking forward to being there.

I’m open to suggestions. Should have formal second opinion tomorrow or next day and feel like we get a year. Take trip and pull the plug.

I’m just tired of the rigaramarole all of the time.

The ask is not that unreasonable. It’s the stance, making a point when he’s pretending we’re taking a happy family trip that just once again feels manipulative.

Really open to ideas and what would you do?

If I could ensure he didn’t take the kids 1000+ miles, I think I’d pull the plug  as soon as surgery is confirmed postponed.

[kells76]

"I want to have dinner with D/S 3x week and 4x every other week. "

That's weird phrasing that sounds like a parenting plan.

Remind me, has he mentioned divorce, custody, two homes, kids back and forth, anything like that?

I'm with you in leaning towards either no comment, or neutral/pleasant but noncommittal:

"That sounds nice (happy emoji)"

Also, what do you think would happen if you just didn't respond?

[UBPDHelp]

That's weird phrasing that sounds like a parenting plan.

Remind me, has he mentioned divorce, custody, two homes, kids back and forth, anything like that?

I'm with you in leaning towards either no comment, or neutral/pleasant but noncommittal:

"That sounds nice (happy emoji)"

Also, what do you think would happen if you just didn't respond?

Exactly correct. He’s a L, so that part didn’t surprise me. But crap he did casually mention he is doing a custody case right now. He doesn’t usually, but has years ago.

He’s said a 100x over the years that he wants a divorce. He hasn’t since his last true rage text (attack on me personally) where I moved out of our bedroom and stay on another floor of the house. He’ll have to beat me to it.

If I didn’t respond he’d just do whatever it is he is going to do.  Previously he would rage at me for ignoring him or not responding. He didn’t ask so technically he’s stating something he doesn’t need to ask permission to do. And I believe it is to unsettle me and also show he is “involved”.

Torn between the thumbs up and ignoring.

Thumbs up is good b/c shows he didn’t rattle me, but agrees. He’ll do it a time or two and then may fall off — my sons batting cage he had to get him for his birthday 3+ months ago still sits unopened in the garage.  Walks past it every single day and it doesn’t move.

Ignoring also shows no rattle and there’s no question. Slight downside is whatever/whenever next text, it’ll throw that message up too.  

[GaGrl]

I see nothing in his "want" statement about dinners that requires anything from you. What action do you think he is expecting from you? To change dinner time? To facilitate everyone being available at that time?

[UBPDHelp]

I see nothing in his "want" statement about dinners that requires anything from you. What action do you think he is expecting from you? To change dinner time? To facilitate everyone being available at that time?

I don’t think he wants me to do anything at this point.

I think he first wants to upset me and second he wants to paint himself as involved.

Since Jan he has been doing S’s laundry. In 30+ years H has done laundry…since Jan.  Like never even tossed in a load. He doesn’t do D’s. Older two are adults so he says they do their own. Middle I still do. Very little, wasteful to do a separate load so I don’t. She helps fold and put away.

So you suggest I don’t even respond to it?

Ugh, further he has follow up call scheduled tomorrow. He was going to include me and I think I need to remind him.

Thinking I ignore the last text as not requiring a response. Then remind about call. 

But concerned it might appear, if you do this, I do that. But if I don’t remind, he can also try to misconstrue as I don’t care. He’s clearly on a planning path.

[I Am Redeemed]

If he wants to be involved with daughter's care, he can remember the call himself. You went through the extra step to set it up after he rage texted and called you. You didn't have to do that. And, since I have been in very similar situations, I imagine you only set it up because he was pissed off and bombarding you and you did it to pacify him (and therefore preempt any more abuse treatment towards you).

It's his child. He should not demand that he have dinner with (child whatever age) from you.  He is responsible for his relationship with his own kids. If he wants to do this, let him figure it out.

"'That sounds nice! "

Noncommittal. It doesn't say you will orchestrate any details.

Stop worrying about how he may misconstrue anything you say or do to mean you don't care. You have done more than enough and he still persists in making it about you not including him (see phone call with doctor where you made appointment, got app, followed instructions, tried to include him while he made zero effort and blamed you when things went wrong with technical difficulties causing you to lose clarity and focus on D's medical issues and discussion with doc because he threw a fit for not getting his way with no effort from him).

Who cares if he misconstrues anything as "she doesn't care"? He's liable to come to this conclusion anyway.

What do you want to do?

If this phone call is important to hom, will he remember?

Do you remind him of every phone call he needs to have with one of his clients?

[UBPDHelp]

If he wants to be involved with daughter's care, he can remember the call himself. You went through the extra step to set it up after he rage texted and called you. You didn't have to do that. And, since I have been in very similar situations, I imagine you only set it up because he was pissed off and bombarding you and you did it to pacify him (and therefore preempt any more abuse treatment towards you).

Thank you. Exactly as it happened. Couple of things…

I am tired of this whole dynamic. Have been for a very long time but felt stuck and trapped and did not understand what was going on. And ‘ducks in a long ago reply mentioned trauma bonding.  I thought I knew what this meant — I didn’t. This is 100% what I was living.  Good, good, good, love bombing, bad, bad, worse, like nothing I’ve ever seen before, remorse, love bombing…and around and around. Confused by the bad, restored with the good. Confused again by bad, throw in some gaslighting (or a ton of it) and left dazed and confused and at some level, believing deserving of the treatment.

Half of it is on me for taking so long to seek help. To understand. Even the event that I believe exacerbated it about 8 years ago, only increased intensity and frequency. Before that, as has been said, there was enough good to overlook the bad. I shouldn’t have.

It's his child. He should not demand that he have dinner with (child whatever age) from you.  He is responsible for his relationship with his own kids. If he wants to do this, let him figure it out.

"'That sounds nice! "

Noncommittal. It doesn't say you will orchestrate any details.

After a little rest (a little), I think this is the way to go.  I will not make arrangements, I will not stop him.

Planning ahead, there were 2 times he took my son. I was in the shower or in the laundry room and they left. S is 9.  He did not tell me he was going to take him or that he had. I panicked not knowing. I texted H and asked if he had S.  He never replied. Go for 2 months doing nothing with him and then when I’m distracted, quietly take S and say nothing. He is not ever quiet. I told S just to let me know if he is going somewhere.  Know it’s not on S, and I feel terrible about it, but can’t rely on H to tell me.

So, if H decides he’s taking them for dinner, but doesn’t tell me in advance and I’ve made dinner, I presume I deny then and state, I’ve already made their dinner, but if you’d like to take them tomorrow or let me know when, I won’t make dinner for them.

He will 100% throw a fit, but I think it would be a mistake in this situation to allow it. The kids have a routine, if he wants to change it, he should let me know. If I don’t boundary this, he’ll just control my every day. And I want to “teach” him to let me know. It’s not for my approval, but respect of my time. Thoughts on that?

Stop worrying about how he may misconstrue anything you say or do to mean you don't care. You have done more than enough and he still persists in making it about you not including him (see phone call with doctor where you made appointment, got app, followed instructions, tried to include him while he made zero effort and blamed you when things went wrong with technical difficulties causing you to lose clarity and focus on D's medical issues and discussion with doc because he threw a fit for not getting his way with no effort from him).

Who cares if he misconstrues anything as "she doesn't care"? He's liable to come to this conclusion anyway.

So true. He’s a gas lighter extraordinaire. And, I do struggle at times with not being understood accurately.  I have to remind myself a lot.

What do you want to do?

If this phone call is important to hom, will he remember?

Do you remind him of every phone call he needs to have with one of his clients?

Probably should have been more clear, . I want to remind him to include me in the call. The doc is calling H’s phone so I only get to hear the conversation (which was to happen 2 days ago but was destroyed by events of that day) if I remind him to include me.

If it was just him, I’d let him sink his own ship. I will not help him. I will not actively look to “hurt” him, but I will definitely not help him.

The time is now, so we’ll see how this goes. Thank you for keeping me on my path forward.

[kells76]

One more "details" thought on deflating potential conflict:

So, if H decides he’s taking them for dinner, but doesn’t tell me in advance and I’ve made dinner, I presume I deny then and state, I’ve already made their dinner, but if you’d like to take them tomorrow or let me know when, I won’t make dinner for them.

I wonder whether H is doing something passive-aggressive here, or setting up some drama/conflict:

You've already made dinner, and who knows, maybe H sees it, maybe not, but either way, with dinner already made, THAT'S when he takes S9 out.

People with PD's are masters at identifying and crafting drama scenarios with rigid roles. With the whole "you already made dinner" thing, the drama scenario is that you're in a double bind. He "just wants to be a loving dad" (the hero) who "isn't doing anything wrong" (victim) by getting dinner with S9. You're being unreasonable to stop him "just because of some food that got made" (you're the persecutor, you're petty, etc etc etc).

What if the fact that dinner was already made... didn't matter?

What if the extras just got put in tupperware in the fridge? Labeled with his name for lunch tomorrow  maybe don't really do that

He would lose a lot of ammo and the whole situation, crafted in a rigid way, would completely deflate.

"OK H, have a great dinner with S9"

versus

"You guys can go on another night when I haven't made dinner"

...

It is sort of detail focused for this particular scenario, but overall, I think it's about an overarching mindset.

You know now how pwPD's can turn ANYTHING (yes, anything!) into a competition about who's on top, who's below, who is good, who is bad, who is the heroic victim, who is the unreasonable persecutor.

The new mindset is -- how do I "accept their choices" in a way that takes the wind out of the sails.

They often make choices or statements that seem designed to generate rigid conflict.

How can we decline to participate? How can we rely on our own flexible thinking and creative problem-solving (granted, not in every scenario, but there are many) to deflate the drama?

...

Our recent example was:

We found out 1 day ahead of time that Mom and Stepdad would be out of town for some indeterminate stretch of time -- at least part of a day, maybe overnight, she wasn't clear. She texted that "SD15 already decided to stay with you that night, but SD13 told me that she only wants to stay with you as a last resort". Wow, thanks!
She didn't know how long they'd be gone, so DH said that if they were back by X time at night, he'd take SD13 back to their place, but if not, he'd drop the kids off the next morning.
Then she responded that "I told SD13 that if we weren't back by X time, we'd see her in the morning".
Oh, did she already?
It's this combination of inadvertently advertising her inability to plan re: the kids (if SD13 was so desperate to be with them... they could have DECIDED to come back earlier), and flaunting her "one up" position -- "SD13 OBVIOUSLY prefers me... I am the chosen parent... she tells me how she doesn't want to be with you... blah blah blah"

DH did a great job of keeping communication to:

what he needed, with specifics: "if you're not back by X time, then I will need to do Y"

minimal word answers when needed: "sounds good" or "ok, thanks"

not responding to unclear texts: she later sent one that was like "we'll be back by X+1 time and the door is unlocked for the kids", that did not get a response

not responding to bait into drama: DH did not engage with the putdown

...

Hope this is helpful "mindset" stuff...

It's so good to read you here thinking through "does this text merit a response?"

That is really powerful! You deserve kudos for asking yourself that question more and more. It's a change I've seen in you since you've been here that will really pay of for your peace of mind long-term. Thumbs up!

[formflier]

I like the "have a great time" response, especially for the first couple times.  It's very likely this will "burn itself out" and be a non thing.


Before I read that idea I was going to suggest you reply with "great...please let me know what you have scheduled."   I don't see anything wrong with my idea...but there is more "simplicity" to the "have a great time" idea.

Especially if you save the extra dinner for them them to eat the following night..


Big picture:  Resist overthinking their potential actions and chaos.

Train you kids to let adults know when they are going...train them to NOT assume adults will talk. 

So..."Hey Buddy...go hop in the car let's grab breakfast" 

"Ok Dad..I'm hungry, let me go tell Mom I'm leaving."


Keep it that simple...I know it's not "that simple"...yet deliberately turning toward simplicity will reap benefits.

Best,

FF

[kells76]

One more "tweak" for you to consider:

Phrasing could be:

"OK, you guys have a great dinner! I'll save your leftovers in the fridge for tomorrow."

Could be a way of "staying in the driver's seat" of what's going on -- you're the one in control/managing the dinner you have made, while calmly sharing information with them for the future.

[babyducks]

UBPDHelp,

I think kells absolutely nailed it with her post.

two things that I see as worth really focusing on:

People with PD's are masters at identifying and crafting drama scenarios with rigid roles.

this has been the pattern for quite a while now.    Your H creates conflict because it serves his attention seeking needs and his need for control.     the cups he wouldn't pick up.    the pumpkins he smashed on the front lawn.    the door he won't lock or close.   the bills he dangles over your head.   what they all have in common is - your attention reverts to him and he is in control of the situation.  albeit in a petty way.

When Karpman created his 'drama triangle' image he inverted it.   Why?   because he wanted to demonstrate the struggle for the "one up position".    the persecutor - your husband, wants the one up position.   he wants to be large and in charge.   he wants to drive the dynamic.  he wants to be better, deserve more, be right, have his needs met first.    its not conscious.   its more an automatic function of his illness.
 
anyone else on the drama triangle will then get sucked into trying to find a way to that one up position.   the rescuer will try to fix it,  figure it out, solve the puzzle, do the right thing.    the victim will blame, shift responsibility, decline to problem solve.

kells is right.    the only way to win is not to play.    move off and away from the drama triangle.   deflate conflict.    dial down reactivity.    make deliberate and conscious choices to not engage in non productive debates.   

'okay.   have fun.   I'll save dinner for leftovers tomorrow' is a brilliant response.

How can we decline to participate? How can we rely on our own flexible thinking and creative problem-solving (granted, not in every scenario, but there are many) to deflate the drama?

I'll take a swing at this.   at some point we can decline to participate by breaking  the pattern.    there is absolutely no doubt that this type of conflict generating behavior is frustrating, irritating, annoying and upsetting.    those are all valid and difficult emotions.    what is also true is that we can disengage from those emotions, and disengage from the conflict.    deliberately choosing to let go of the conflict using our wise mind and move into flexible thinking.     "I see this a conflict generating situation where I am being baited into a one down position.   Do I want to participate?   Is it worth it?   What do I get if I engage?"

He will 100% throw a fit, but I think it would be a mistake in this situation to allow it. The kids have a routine, if he wants to change it, he should let me know. If I don’t boundary this, he’ll just control my every day. And I want to “teach” him to let me know. It’s not for my approval, but respect of my time. Thoughts on that?

The he here is your husband?   am I reading that correctly?    Your husband is an adult and these are his children.    Yes, the right thing to do is let you know he is going to dinner.   and Yes chances are he won't do that.    You can't change him.  and chances that you can 'teach' him to let you know are slim considering how broken the communication is in your marriage.    you can request he let you know in advance.     you will probably have to request more than once, since the level of cooperation between you two is low right now.   boundaries reflect our values.    they protect us from doing things that violate our values.   they are not demands or commands.  can you say what value are you setting a boundary around?

'ducks

[formflier]

"OK, you guys have a great dinner! I'll save your leftovers in the fridge for tomorrow."

Yep...this tweak is better.

I wonder if circling back later and asking him to "take over" dinner "with" daughter for a night or so is useful.  Not that I think he will.

I do think it might actually increase the chances that he takes daughter out for dinner. 

As we look at this situation do we care what he actually does and increasing or decreasing chance of that...or do we limit ourselves to a healthy response to his words and then let chips fall where they may.

Honestly...after I wrote that...I think we leave it to simplicity, let the chips fall.  Yet Dad actually making the effort to "do" a better r/s with someone in the family seems good.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

In the scenario that kells describes, some one had to dampen down the flames of injustice and indignation that were threatening to break out every where.

By staying in his own lane and responding in a healthy manner kells' DH did that.

[worriedStepmom]

What do your kids think is going on with your relationship with your H?

How weird will it be for them to go on a "family trip"?
How weird is it for them that you are still doing "family" things with your H (like visiting his mom)?

I am not sure from your posts if the two of you still have non-kid-decision-making contact or not.  I'd be totally confused as a tween/teen if my parents lived on different floors, never managed to have dinner together for months, and then took us all on a "nice happy vacation".

[UBPDHelp]

One more "details" thought on deflating potential conflict:

I wonder whether H is doing something passive-aggressive here, or setting up some drama/conflict:

You've already made dinner, and who knows, maybe H sees it, maybe not, but either way, with dinner already made, THAT'S when he takes S9 out.

People with PD's are masters at identifying and crafting drama scenarios with rigid roles. With the whole "you already made dinner" thing, the drama scenario is that you're in a double bind. He "just wants to be a loving dad" (the hero) who "isn't doing anything wrong" (victim) by getting dinner with S9. You're being unreasonable to stop him "just because of some food that got made" (you're the persecutor, you're petty, etc etc etc).

What if the fact that dinner was already made... didn't matter?

What if the extras just got put in tupperware in the fridge? Labeled with his name for lunch tomorrow  maybe don't really do that

He would lose a lot of ammo and the whole situation, crafted in a rigid way, would completely deflate.

"OK H, have a great dinner with S9"

versus

"You guys can go on another night when I haven't made dinner"

I like this so much.  If I think about it, the best response I usually get is if I agree — which emotionally feels like I’ve failed by giving in.  Change of mindset — deflating the attempt to disrupt.

I don’t mean agree in the typical sense…in the PD sense. You’re interested in spending time with the kids when you think it will upset me?  Have at it. We’ll see if he keeps it up.

I walk a fine line — I want my kids to have their dad and a good relationship.  He can be great with them…if they don’t veer too far from what he thinks (which can change on a dime).  So, for them, they get a fair amount of okay interaction — personally, the middle two struggle with what they perceive as racist, sexist, political or otherwise inflammatory rhetoric.  Who wouldn’t?  But those things are not directed at them; just the world in general.

I struggle with how to help them preserve the relationship and I guess accept that he has these big faults that don’t align with their beliefs. We can get there if he doesn’t force them on the kids. 

I apologize that I can’t remember who gave this advice, but I do try now to let them lead any conversation and just ask them how they feel or what they think. They are my kind and quieter crew, but darn if they didn’t see the dynamic so quickly. I don’t know how to help them when I can’t help myself.

...

It is sort of detail focused for this particular scenario, but overall, I think it's about an overarching mindset.

You know now how pwPD's can turn ANYTHING (yes, anything!) into a competition about who's on top, who's below, who is good, who is bad, who is the heroic victim, who is the unreasonable persecutor.

The new mindset is -- how do I "accept their choices" in a way that takes the wind out of the sails.

They often make choices or statements that seem designed to generate rigid conflict.

How can we decline to participate? How can we rely on our own flexible thinking and creative problem-solving (granted, not in every scenario, but there are many) to deflate the drama?

Yes, I have been trying. I was making some decent progress and had pulled away and was operating quite well on my own.

But your description is better and helpful to remember during the attempts to disrupt.

Unfortunately with D’s current situation, we’ve had to communicate quite a bit in the last month and will need to for the next several to see this through. More communication and increased disruption, although maybe not as much as I would have thought.

He is definitely mini love bombing. It’s subtle but he is.  I chuckle b/c I see what’s going on but I’m using it to try to get through the current situation and put it behind us.

I’m just beside myself to have this delay but there is now urgency for D and I feel like I have to to avoid as much drama as possible til we’re on the other side. She comes first.  But I’m still getting my plans worked out — current lack of housing options is the biggest hurdle. Hoping as everything opens back up, the millions that fled the city to here will go back (some of them at least). 

...

Our recent example was:

We found out 1 day ahead of time that Mom and Stepdad would be out of town for some indeterminate stretch of time -- at least part of a day, maybe overnight, she wasn't clear. She texted that "SD15 already decided to stay with you that night, but SD13 told me that she only wants to stay with you as a last resort". Wow, thanks!
She didn't know how long they'd be gone, so DH said that if they were back by X time at night, he'd take SD13 back to their place, but if not, he'd drop the kids off the next morning.
Then she responded that "I told SD13 that if we weren't back by X time, we'd see her in the morning".
Oh, did she already?
It's this combination of inadvertently advertising her inability to plan re: the kids (if SD13 was so desperate to be with them... they could have DECIDED to come back earlier), and flaunting her "one up" position -- "SD13 OBVIOUSLY prefers me... I am the chosen parent... she tells me how she doesn't want to be with you... blah blah blah"

DH did a great job of keeping communication to:

what he needed, with specifics: "if you're not back by X time, then I will need to do Y"

minimal word answers when needed: "sounds good" or "ok, thanks"

not responding to unclear texts: she later sent one that was like "we'll be back by X+1 time and the door is unlocked for the kids", that did not get a response

not responding to bait into drama: DH did not engage with the putdown

...

Hope this is helpful "mindset" stuff...

It's so good to read you here thinking through "does this text merit a response?"

That is really powerful! You deserve kudos for asking yourself that question more and more. It's a change I've seen in you since you've been here that will really pay of for your peace of mind long-term. Thumbs up!

Thanks for sharing the example. Sorry you have to deal with those passive aggressive behaviors. Glad you have mastered them.

Your reply was so helpful.  It helps to see the less is more, deflating communication.  But also, helpful that my take on it isn’t nuts AND that I’m not alone in dealing with this stuff.

But changing mindset is a biggie. I was really in a better spot, and I don’t think I’ve lost much ground in ability, just the need for more communication around D is opening up opportunities for him to manipulate. 

I am not tooting my own horn…I am a pretty average person, but I just don’t look to disrupt people or feel threatened by others’ wins/accomplishments/better car, house.  I’m happy for others and care much more about what’s inside and kindness. I just was so ill-prepared to deal with this having never dealt with anyone like this before.

Bottom line, I feel bad for him, in some ways I know he can’t help it, but I just don’t want to live with it anymore. Or make my kids.

Thanks Kells!

I’d take any advice how to stay in the mindset in that shock moment, !

[UBPDHelp]

UBPDHelp,

I think kells absolutely nailed it with her post.

two things that I see as worth really focusing on:

this has been the pattern for quite a while now.    Your H creates conflict because it serves his attention seeking needs and his need for control.     the cups he wouldn't pick up.    the pumpkins he smashed on the front lawn.    the door he won't lock or close.   the bills he dangles over your head.   what they all have in common is - your attention reverts to him and he is in control of the situation.  albeit in a petty way.

When Karpman created his 'drama triangle' image he inverted it.   Why?   because he wanted to demonstrate the struggle for the "one up position".    the persecutor - your husband, wants the one up position.   he wants to be large and in charge.   he wants to drive the dynamic.  he wants to be better, deserve more, be right, have his needs met first.    its not conscious.   its more an automatic function of his illness.
 
anyone else on the drama triangle will then get sucked into trying to find a way to that one up position.   the rescuer will try to fix it,  figure it out, solve the puzzle, do the right thing.    the victim will blame, shift responsibility, decline to problem solve.

kells is right.    the only way to win is not to play.    move off and away from the drama triangle.   deflate conflict.    dial down reactivity.    make deliberate and conscious choices to not engage in non productive debates.   

'okay.   have fun.   I'll save dinner for leftovers tomorrow' is a brilliant response.

Thanks ‘ducks. I have gotten better about dialing it down. And certainly not letting him know I’m annoyed as he||.  I tried to get him to lock the door. He said I forget sometimes when I’m thinking about work when I leave. Every single day. Every single day. Coming, going, doesn’t matter. As soon as I asked (after it happened a couple of times), he just refused. Fine. I bought and installed a lock I can employ from my phone. Sadly I get a smidge of pleasure when he comes home and sits in the room by the door and I hit “lock” and he can hear it turn.

Never discussed it again. The first time he saw it, he popped the cover off, I assume to be a pain. Didn’t say anything. I put it back when he was out. Never discussed or touched again. He still doesn’t ever lock the door. Ever. But I do. Oh wait, if I’m not home and he goes out, he’ll lock it so I have to unlock it. Who cares?  Just shows he can remember and it’s intentional to “say” he doesn’t care if I’m safe (or the kids b/c they’re here, too). Pathetic really.

I'll take a swing at this.   at some point we can decline to participate by breaking  the pattern.    there is absolutely no doubt that this type of conflict generating behavior is frustrating, irritating, annoying and upsetting.    those are all valid and difficult emotions.    what is also true is that we can disengage from those emotions, and disengage from the conflict.    deliberately choosing to let go of the conflict using our wise mind and move into flexible thinking.     "I see this a conflict generating situation where I am being baited into a one down position.   Do I want to participate?   Is it worth it?   What do I get if I engage?"

How would you engage when there’s drama but you must reply?  Still matter of fact — I will blank.

Escalation ensues and walk away unresolved. Can I just act, say, with the kids?

I tried to discuss, you weren’t interested in finding middle ground, so I did what I thought best. True this will be easier to employ when bound by custody terms. Just need to practice.

The he here is your husband?   am I reading that correctly?    Your husband is an adult and these are his children.    Yes, the right thing to do is let you know he is going to dinner.   and Yes chances are he won't do that.    You can't change him.  and chances that you can 'teach' him to let you know are slim considering how broken the communication is in your marriage.    you can request he let you know in advance.     you will probably have to request more than once, since the level of cooperation between you two is low right now.   boundaries reflect our values.    they protect us from doing things that violate our values.   they are not demands or commands.  can you say what value are you setting a boundary around?

'ducks

I think the boundary is just plain respect. The boundary is not engaging with people who do not show me basic levels of respect.

On the flip — willingness to engage only with respectful people (not talking one-offs, no need to boundary a single interaction and I have no problem walking away)…so engage only with respectful people sort of creates the “demand/command” of the other person to behave respectfully IF they want a relationship with me/cooperation from me.

So I know the boundary is mine, but it can create a need for a behavior from others…no?

I can choose no relationship, just not with him.

Thanks ‘ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Yep...this tweak is better.

I wonder if circling back later and asking him to "take over" dinner "with" daughter for a night or so is useful.  Not that I think he will.

I do think it might actually increase the chances that he takes daughter out for dinner. 

As we look at this situation do we care what he actually does and increasing or decreasing chance of that...or do we limit ourselves to a healthy response to his words and then let chips fall where they may.

Honestly...after I wrote that...I think we leave it to simplicity, let the chips fall.  Yet Dad actually making the effort to "do" a better r/s with someone in the family seems good.

Best,

FF

Agree. I replied as suggested. Haven’t heard another word about it. Only been a couple days and distractions with D. Not bringing it up, but ready if he does or asks them to go.

No reaction is definitely way better with him. Momentarily wonder if that would have made the current situation better had I known 8-10 years ago. But, it would be a flat relationship and unlikely to sustain.

This mindset feels doable and impactful. No doubt imperfect application but diminish maybe 50% would be worth it.

Thanks FF

[UBPDHelp]

In the scenario that kells describes, some one had to dampen down the flames of injustice and indignation that were threatening to break out every where.

By staying in his own lane and responding in a healthy manner kells' DH did that.

Agree. Where I struggle, it’s not with not with being right, but fear I am letting him move the line in the sand. I just have such a hard time not feeling like he’s trying to manipulate and take advantage, which is why I can react. Which is what he wants.

I’m better about no response or no reaction, but fear I’ll wake up and have agreed to too much. This may be a perception and not a reality, I admit, but I think it’s the cause of the waffling I deal with.

Any tricks, tips for that?

Thanks ‘ducks

[UBPDHelp]

What do your kids think is going on with your relationship with your H?

My older two are in 20s and fully aware of the dynamic.  The 14yo is wise beyond their years and most outspoken about dads behavior.  Youngest seems unaware of mom/dad being off, but often doesn’t want to tell dad stuff for fear of being yelled at. Some unlikely but understandable, too.

How weird will it be for them to go on a "family trip"?
How weird is it for them that you are still doing "family" things with your H (like visiting his mom)?

I am not sure from your posts if the two of you still have non-kid-decision-making contact or not.  I'd be totally confused as a tween/teen if my parents lived on different floors, never managed to have dinner together for months, and then took us all on a "nice happy vacation".

I don’t disagree.

I agreed to the need for D to have some fun before surgery took the rest of summer from her (she wants to wait on surgery, we can’t).  She has been in pandemic like everyone else and ready to see friends more and now will be relegated to bed for about 6 weeks (timelines shaping up).

We do make some decisions together — bill paying, repairs — mostly via text.

Yes, I’m operating some from fear if I refuse he will paint me as not being concerned about D’s need to have fun but more so, blowing up the whole surgery process and creating added stress, including most importantly for D. Now, we can find the agreement. While no choice in surgery, there are options and I don’t want that used to complicate things.

So, I don’t think the 3 oldest are unaware, they understand, the youngest is mostly unaware.

Is it the right choice?  I don’t know. It isn’t what I wished but I’m more concerned about getting through the surgery process as uneventfully as possible. I believe he will be disruptive if we decline the fun.

In truth, I don’t know if it’s the right decision, but I believe for current situation, it is the decision that offers the best chance for least disruption, which I feel is critical right now.

Thanks worried stepmom.

[formflier]

One broad comment and one specific one.

I TOTALLY identify with "line in the sand" and struggling over it.  It's a power struggle.

IT'S A POWER STRUGGLE

What if you ignored his lines..?  When he makes it impossible to ignore, instead of struggling...act befuddled..let him explain and overly explain his being an azz.

Please...no criticism here, just as I look back over the "arc" of me "dealing with" BPD...power struggles rarely go well for me, the relationship or my pwBPD.

From time to time I draw and hard line and let things go nuclear over safety (in fact just a few days ago)..my wife was stomping around the house saying she was moving out because I wouldn't let her put up the pool.  She tried to rally the children to do it anyway.

Note:  This was a week after I accepted her written proposal to not put up the pool.  After 35 seconds of trying to get me to change and put up the pool she went nuclear.

I was still trying to sort out how accepting her proposal was not ok..I suspect she was being a smart azz and I missed it.

Anyway...I looked at kids and said "Do not put up the pool, you know this is a safety issue.  Don't do it."  Then I walked into my room.  

Long story way of saying that only use power struggles for the most most important stuff.  I wish I had realized earlier what she was doing or that she was previously insincere.  

Specific idea:  Pick a random day in the next week.  Approach your hubby in person.  "Hey..daughter seems down today.  Can you take her to dinner and cheer her up." 

Let him react to you...be proactive.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

One broad comment and one specific one.

I TOTALLY identify with "line in the sand" and struggling over it.  It's a power struggle.

IT'S A POWER STRUGGLE

What if you ignored his lines..?  When he makes it impossible to ignore, instead of struggling...act befuddled..let him explain and overly explain his being an azz.

Please...no criticism here, just as I look back over the "arc" of me "dealing with" BPD...power struggles rarely go well for me, the relationship or my pwBPD.

I understand what you’re saying and the few true power struggles have not gone well.

I’m not really concerned about power, but the gradual erosion of what I’m willing to do or not do.

Take the kids to dinner after I’ve made their dinner and no notice, okay great, I’ll save the food for tomorrow. Feels okay. Taking kids on an unannounced overnight trip. Little more line in the sand.  Now we’re going to go for a week and they’re going to miss 2 days of school. Further in the sand. And now if I push back, the stakes are higher.

This is what I’m afraid of. It may not play out, idk.  It’s just the concern and much because that’s how I ended up being responsible for all household chores, childcare chores, doctors/dentist, not talking to people. They all started a little more line in the sand. The increments were never big, but looking to the beginning, it’s miles.

From time to time I draw and hard line and let things go nuclear over safety (in fact just a few days ago)..my wife was stomping around the house saying she was moving out because I wouldn't let her put up the pool.  She tried to rally the children to do it anyway.

Note:  This was a week after I accepted her written proposal to not put up the pool.  After 35 seconds of trying to get me to change and put up the pool she went nuclear.

I was still trying to sort out how accepting her proposal was not ok..I suspect she was being a smart azz and I missed it.

Anyway...I looked at kids and said "Do not put up the pool, you know this is a safety issue.  Don't do it."  Then I walked into my room.  

Long story way of saying that only use power struggles for the most most important stuff.  I wish I had realized earlier what she was doing or that she was previously insincere.  

Specific idea:  Pick a random day in the next week.  Approach your hubby in person.  "Hey..daughter seems down today.  Can you take her to dinner and cheer her up." 

Let him react to you...be proactive.

Best,

FF

Been there, too.  Misunderstand and react. But, I can say in my case, it’s almost always from past experience.

Thanks FF

[formflier]

I think I get the vibe.

He takes kid (with your blessing) to dinner and then "poof" through a series of steps he and kid disappear for days on end.

Is that about the gist of it?


Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I think I get the vibe.

He takes kid (with your blessing) to dinner and then "poof" through a series of steps he and kid disappear for days on end.

Is that about the gist of it?


Best,

FF

Yep, in a nutshell

I’m pretty open and easy-going, which also allowed me to be taken advantage of. I don’t blame him entirely. I allowed it.

But, that’s why I feel more unbending. I just fear it will be a little more here and a little more there and then just too darn far.

And I question if I’m overreacting based on past experience. Kind of think he’s out of chances for good faith. He has to prove, but in reality I will never trust him.

[UBPDHelp]

This is a bit off topic, but on my mind and doesn’t warrant a separate thread.

I’ve mentioned this lost sense of “normal”.  I’ve learned enough to state I don’t mean one right vs wrong, but normal on a continuum — anywhere in the range.

Recently have had some somewhat irritating life things happen.  As I’ve known for years, an expression of frustration or disappointment — not directed at H — illicits a reaction in him that seems to exceed reasonable. That said, I find myself getting more irritated with things (examples) below. I don’t know if it’s normal, he’s rubbed off on me too much or my current stress makes me more impatient. I’d love thoughts on what a “normal” response in these scenarios would be and any thoughts on why they irritate me and how to focus on them not.

Some seem kind of silly, just an heads up.

We have newish garbage collectors. We prepay quarterly. We’ve had extra garbage with more people at home so more than fits in the bin they provide. Their invoice/website says they’ll charge $2/bag over. At first I was being mindful to only put one or two (we probably have 4-5), thinking the next week might be less and we’d even out. Didn’t really happen, so few weeks ago, put out about 5 bags — in my own container. They collector didn’t take it.

I thought maybe the truck was full and he was coming back. I can’t leave it out overnight because of animals, so I called just to see if they were coming back. I was told no, they won’t take extra garbage. I was surprised and said you state you will charge, happy to pay.  She says okay we’ll come back. They don’t. Ever. The situation is frustrating. I just want them to take the garbage, I’ve agreed to pay what they state, but they won’t come.

How would you respond?  What would you do?

Second is similar.  Lawn guy comes 1x week, same day, to cut the grass. He misses the usual day so I call the office to let them know. I was pleasant and just checking in case they weren’t aware. She assured me he would come that day (the next day from usual).  He doesn’t. I call again, because now I’m more concerned that she thinks he has come. Again, she says he will come that day. He doesn’t. I tell H that it’s so odd and a bummer because half way through the week, if he comes now and then usual the next week, it will be double cut basically. H calls and tells the, to come but skip the next week (which would have been just as long as the delay).  They come that day and then again on the usual day.

Seems kind of dumb, but are these typical things and shouldn’t be cause of frustration?  What’s a good way to handle?  I’m just trying to understand if my level of frustration is “normal” or if I’ve adopted poor coping skills, etc. 

Finally, youngest D got hurt at school under watch of teacher doing something I would not allow a 9 yo to do, definitely not without supervision. Think hot. Think glue. Think 2 burns on hand. D just thought it hurt but by the time dinner rolled around, they had blistered and were pretty red. That’s when I found out.

I sent an email — just hey, FYI, D got some burns and hope you’re all done with that activity, but if not, please make sure to help her because she needs assistance. And, to please send to the nurse if the bandaids come off because they were now open wounds.

I feel like that’s an okay email…thoughts?

The teachers reply annoyed me a bit. He was like the kids were given instructions on how to use them. It can be hard. And that they would send  D to the nurse if the bandaids came off.

No apology, no oh my goodness. Not blaming him, but I know I’d feel terrible if any child got hurt under my care. Even if it was accidental.

Part of me wants to send him pictures of the burns and tell him it’s not hard, it’s second degree burns. Think that’s too much.   

So how would you handle?  I just want to ensure my years of operationally being around intense angst isn’t rubbing abnormal response on me.

Appreciate any normal responses to help me get my bearings.

Sorry this is a weird post…too much time to think today for whatever reason.

[I Am Redeemed]

All of the things you mentioned have a common thread: you want someone else to do something that you think is reasonable, and none of them are responding in the way you think they should. I think that it mirrors what you have been experiencing with your h. You don't understand why he behaves in ways that are (very) unreasonable or exhibits low empathy (like the teacher's response).

It's always frustrating when we want someone else to change their behavior and they won't- especially when we just expect a basic level of reasonable.

Experiencing years of abuse made me feel powerless. Part of my recovery and healing has been recognizing when I start to feel frustrated and powerless in situations involving other people, and learning when and how to assert myself and when to let things go.

Letting things go sometimes feels like letting others take advantage of me.

Asserting myself sometimes feels like overreacting.

It can be very confusing and I thank God for a great therapist who has helped me work through these things.

Now, as for the things you mentioned- they would all be frustrating to me, on different levels. The yard thing probably would be the least of my worries. Irritating, but maybe it was a one-off and the lawn guy will get back to his regular schedule.

The garbage thing...I would definitely be irritated at having garbage sitting around that was not getting picked up. I have raccoons that like to pilfer mine, so I would hate having to leave it either sitting in the house or outside waiting for the next pickup day.

In that situation, I would probably call and ask if I could purchase another bin from the waste management company so all the garbage can be put out in approved containers and therefore picked up. I might also just find a dumpster or a garbage dump to dispose of the left behind trash.

The kid thing...that teacher's response would tick me off. Not that I would go nuclear about it, but I think this is an incident where I would be assertive. Take pictures of the child's hands. State that I do not want my child participating in this activity without direct assistance. I might even speak to school staff. Yes, accidents happen, but that email doesn't reassure a parent that the child is receiving proper supervision or care and I would not be okay with that.

[formflier]

I've been around real estate for a while (renting, flipping and all kinds of stuff)...plus I'm an MBA guy..so I can geek out on "process".

I'm from the south...so think "sweet as pie" on the phone when I really have a knife out.

Make sure you have girls name that said they were coming back, call and ask for manager and ask how it works..maybe act a bit befuddled and ask them to walk you through it..

But at end of day there are a bunch of crappy garbage companies out there.  I've fired a bunch of them.  Luckily most I fired...I owed them money, when they wanted their money I let them know a phone call and explanation would be required first...release..etc etc.

Zero have taken me up on it.  Hmm..maybe hit a FF nerve.


To me the blister thing would be irksome, but we tend to patch booboos and move on without much fanfare...you can still do dishes while hurt...still do (fill in the blank).

Plus...we make a big deal about "are you hurt or are you injured"

For some reason, lawn companies tend to get a pass from me as long as I see they are trying.  I'm also a farmer and know how hard it is to dance around weather.  Now..if weather has been perfect and lawn guys are screwups...maybe I do something. 

I also do most of my own lawn stuff or hire my kids to do it.  Most of my lawn stuff is remote...so I deal in pics, texts and emails..vice staring out the window at a gnarly lawn.

Not sure if I helped...but sure was fun to vent about garbage guys.

Oh..when you find good ones..keep them.  I haven't had to change in 5 years..so blessed.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I should also say my response would be tempered by the realization of how hard it is to switch.

Most places have lots of lawn guys and lots of trash people.

Teachers and schools are tougher to switch.

Plus..any history with any of these?

Anyway.. how are those blisters doing?

Best,

FF

[kells76]

Hey UBPDHelp, sounds like I Am Redeemed and I were thinking about the same thing recently!

The kid thing...that teacher's response would tick me off. Not that I would go nuclear about it, but I think this is an incident where I would be assertive. Take pictures of the child's hands. State that I do not want my child participating in this activity without direct assistance. I might even speak to school staff. Yes, accidents happen, but that email doesn't reassure a parent that the child is receiving proper supervision or care and I would not be okay with that.

Like she mentioned, the way we have historically interacted with pwPDs bleeds over into how we interact with "normal" people. This just is what it is, and has a positive and a negative aspect (in my take). On the plus side, our "radars" for passive-aggressiveness, blame avoidance, abdication of responsibility, and other disordered behaviors is pretty sensitive. If we get "vibes" from emails or whatever that someone isn't taking responsibility when s/he should... we notice! That's not a bad thing.

On the minus side, sometimes we bring the same habitual responses from interacting with pwPDs to "normal" interactions. Those responses can be: not saying what we really want or need, hoping to get what we want without making waves, fearing that assertion will set off conflict, etc. Could be different habitual response flavors as well.

So, in regards to the school issue, IAR and I are looking at it similarly. You're the mom, you're the expert. It's OK and normal to be assertive in and "over 50%" of the interaction. You're not taking over 100% of the interaction ("my way or the highway") but it is YOUR child, not the school's child. Teachers can be wonderful gifts and also are not the expert in the child -- you are (well, and, ultimately, the child, but in this situation, you are the expert in what your child needs and is capable of).

If it were me, I might take a moment to think about what I truly want for my child. Do I want her to use the hot glue gun at all? Only with supervision? Supervised the next time, but OK on her own after that? Not at all until her hands are back in action...?

I hear you communicating in your email that you would like her to have help with the HGG and some eyeballs on the bandaids.

I hear a couple of possibilities in the response.

There could be liability issues with the teacher saying any kind of "I'm sorry" in a written record. Kind of like how we aren't supposed to apologize for fender benders... wait for insurance to sort it out. If a teacher says "I'm Sorry" about a kid's injury... I am betting the school district gets really nervous. That doesn't make it OK for the teacher to not apologize, just my first hunch about why the email came back with the vibe of "we did this by the book" versus "we didn't supervise your child and she got injured on our watch".

It would be totally normal to have an assertive response to their response, like IAR suggested.

Lots of "I" statements, and, importantly, after doing the above (thinking about what YOU truly want for your child, as YOU are the expert), making assertive statements about what you need and what you will do. And, as FF hints at, with a generous helping of the "Friendly" in "BIFF".

Could be something like:

"Hi Teacher;

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. I appreciate you understanding how important Child's safety is.

I want to reiterate how serious the burns were, as I'm sure you've already seen. Here are the pictures, just so we're on the same page. I appreciate you agreeing to monitor her bandaids and send her to the nurse if they come off at all.

I do not want Child to use HGGs at any time without 1x1 adult supervision. If that isn't possible, she will need an alternative assignment. Let me know by the end of Day/Date if this is an issue. If I don't hear back, I'll assume that supervision will happen or that alternatives are OK.

Thanks for all your hard work this past year -- such a crazy year!

Don't hesitate to reach out if you have any questions for me or need any clarification. I'm glad we can work together to ensure Child is safe in the classroom.

Best,

UBPDHelp"

...

The gist I got from you was that even after sending Email #1 and getting Reply #1, things felt... unaddressed, and/or unclear. And I also got a sense that you didn't want to "go nuclear" in Email #1 or create a conflict out of nothing. Like IAR said, though, it was a low empathy response, and that is concerning, whether it was low empathy due to a lack of concern or some kind of liability issue.

It would be perfectly normal to write Email #2, or something like it, and be assertively explicit. This is what needs to happen, here are the details so we are tracking together, here is what I expect. Plus enough BIFF to "grease the skids" -- you are grateful the teacher responded and has worked hard this past year, and there's a tacit "vibe" from you that "you can't imagine the teacher doesn't care about your child's safety". You're "assuming the best" about the teacher ("surely you value my child's safety as much as I do") at the same time that you are being clear and assertive: "X will be happening, and Y will not be happening. Let me know by Z date if there are any issues".

Makes a lot of sense, and not weird at all to advocate for your child more once you got the response.

Hope that helps...

[formflier]

So..if it is true (I'm not doubting, just be clear that it is) that your kid has no experience doing this stuff solo or with loose supervision.

Then

I would clarify that in your return email.  (I do think one is called for)


"Hey..my child doesn't do these things without 1 on 1 supervision at home, so I would appreciate giving me a week or so heads up to practice future things like this or provide 1 on 1 supervision anytime a hot glue gun or similar device will be used by my child."

If this isn't possible, please provide alternate assignment for my child (then the language about when you want to know)

I'm going to agree with others that dealing with a PD "colors" the rest of our communication.  So be deliberate about being flexible, yet at same time you provide a hard date to eliminate unclarity.  The entire tone is factual, friendly and open.


Switching gears:  No criticism here and I may be an outlier on this...and well...I'm switching gears again.

I google "can a 9 year old use a hot glue gun"

Yes, they actually can. With careful demonstration, practice, and adult supervision, your kids can do some of these awesome projects too. I love to use my glue gun for all craft projects, including our favorite Scrabble Magnetic Board. Safety First – Adult supervision is required for all of these activities.

I'll hush and recommend sending the follow up email.

Best,

FF