Advice request: Should I help her, or how much should I help her?

[Ventak]

Quick Background:

• Wife diagnosed with co-morbid BPD/ASPD 7 years ago, first symptoms 25 years ago.
• Stopped psych meds 10 months ago
• Escalating path of destruction
• Pushed away all her friends
• Ran out of victims, pushed me away through assault while holding 2.5 y.o. twins, left us for two weeks, reconciled for three weeks.
• Assaulted me again, this time arrested for domestic violence (2 months ago).  No-contact on criminal case, restraining order on civil.
• Moved in with sister.  Her family supported her initially, but within five weeks all but one niece were pushed away
• Moved in with niece, who after three weeks is becoming overwhelmed, but trying hard to help her.

It will likely be six more weeks before we can even talk.  The last thing she said is that she never wanted to talk directly to me ever again, and wants all communication about the kids to be through a mediator.  Then two weeks later she texted me two nights in a row thanking me for arranging her supervised visits with the twins, said it was helping her.  This was a probable violation of her criminal case no contact order, so was a risk for her to do so.

She's been threatening divorce for the past 8 years, so it's hard to say whether she means it this time or not.  I would like to stay married for the next year to see if her psychiatry and DBT helps with her paranoia and physicality.  Assuming it does we could  start couples therapy and see about a reconciliation.  Unfortunately she has no income and I can't afford an apartment for her for the next six months (Bankruptcy recovery).  I don't think her niece will last for six months...  then her only option will be to live in her car or find a boyfriend really fast.

My plan is to keep the restraining order and supervised visitation active until a psychiatrist gives her approval from a safety perspective.  Because of the criminal case restrictions, I have at least 2 weeks, and likely 6 weeks to where I can even think about helping her... but also want to hold the boundary I've set for our kids.  By helping her, she would live in the downstairs of the house and the kids and I would live upstairs.  It would require a significant modification to the restraining order... which the judge may or may not allow.

My heart is telling me that it is wrong to let your W live on the streets... my brain is saying this may be the "hit bottom" that she needs.

Thoughts?

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[babyducks]

My plan is to keep the restraining order and supervised visitation active until a psychiatrist gives her approval from a safety perspective.  Because of the criminal case restrictions, I have at least 2 weeks, and likely 6 weeks to where I can even think about helping her... but also want to hold the boundary I've set for our kids.  By helping her, she would live in the downstairs of the house and the kids and I would live upstairs.  It would require a significant modification to the restraining order... which the judge may or may not allow.

Let me check that I understand you correctly.    There is a lot packed into your story.

Your wife isn't currently on the streets.   or homeless.   she is sheltered with the niece.    but the handwriting is on the wall... the niece is fatiguing and your wife isn't problem solving.  you want to rescue her in advance and find a way to bring her home.

I certainly understand not wanting the mother of your children to live on the streets.

Still.   safety is primary to me.   I am less clear on what parameters are in place to protect your safety and the safety of the children.    

the first assault happened while the twins were present.    what plan is in place to keep that from repeating?    is she accepting responsibility for her actions?   is she at all connected with domestic violence counseling?    as I understand it,  once that line has been crossed its very hard to come back from physical violence.   and that boundary has been breached twice now.

what about you?    do you have a domestic violence counselor and what is their advice?

I understand that modifying the restraining order gives her a place to live.   I'm fuzzy on how this helps the family?  

'ducks

[formflier]

Also wanted to clarify if there is a psychiatrist involved now or are you considering what a psychiatrist may or may not do in the future?

Switching gears

What is the benefit of solving your wife's housing?

What is the downside of solving your wife's housing?

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

Thanks ducks, I know it was terse but it's hard not to write a book...

Your wife isn't currently on the streets.   or homeless.   she is sheltered with the niece.    but the handwriting is on the wall... the niece is fatiguing and your wife isn't problem solving.  you want to rescue her in advance and find a way to bring her home.

This is correct.  It's only been three weeks for the niece and she is already very fatigued.  Even if she could last six months I think it would debilitate her, and it's clearly not fair for her to carry this burden.  I'm trying to find a way to avoid the niece burning out, my wife living on the streets, and protect our kids all at the same time.  It feels like an unsolvable problem, but I'm the only one with problem solving abilities.

I certainly understand not wanting the mother of your children to live on the streets.

Still.   safety is primary to me.   I am less clear on what parameters are in place to protect your safety and the safety of the children.    

Right now there are two legal protections.  My state has very harsh domestic violence laws.  After arrest there is an immediate no-contact order between the accused and the victim and the victims residence.  They also have a divergence program if the accused pleads guilty, which has a series of steps which if followed will remove charges.  My W took this option.  Now the judge decides when the no-contact order is lifted, and from what I've been able to figure out it takes the abuser to recognize and take responsibility for their actions.  It has been two months and her first post-plea hearing is two weeks away.  That is the earliest the no-contact could be lifted, and will be dependent on how the instructor of the mandatory classes says she is doing.  My guess is that it won't be until the hearing a month after that at the earliest.  She got off on bad terms with the judge by talking to her lawyer while I was reading my victims statement, so I think the no-contact will be longer than usual for these cases.  At this point my W's mind is pretty much gone, there is no rationality left and her paranoia is off the charts.  She is seeing a psychiatrist, attending DV classes, and parenting classes.  My niece says she is doing everything she is supposed to.

The other legal protection is for both me and the kids.  I have a restraining order that gives me full custody and full parenting time.  It gives her 4 hours per week of supervised visitation, which her niece is supervising.  We have 2.5 year old twins and niece has a 2 year old as well.  Our daughter is severely autistic and needs 24/7 "protective" watch for her physical safety.  Thus I'm very cautious about who supervises and tracking closely how things are going.  After the first assault, child protective services opened a case.  They have not closed it, and told me that my W was unstable, HIGHLY recommended that my W not live in the house, HIGHLY recommended that I get the restraining order.  Those last two are in their handbook of things NOT to do, so the agent went out on a limb to make those recommendations.  I'm very concerned about the state taking the children if there is another incidence.

the first assault happened while the twins were present.    what plan is in place to keep that from repeating?    is she accepting responsibility for her actions?   is she at all connected with domestic violence counseling?    as I understand it,  once that line has been crossed its very hard to come back from physical violence.   and that boundary has been breached twice now.

This is why I set the boundary, and included it in the restraining order so she clearly understood it, that the supervised visitation would be in place until she was cleared by a psychiatrist.  After the first assault she had agreed to get an assessment done and was frightened that it would give the same results as the one 7 years ago.  She read on the internet that autism in adult women is frequently misdiagnosed as BPD and she convinced herself 10 months ago that is the case with her... which resulted in her dropping her meds and going into destructive mode.  While she realizes it had negative affects in the frequency of her episodes, she believed that being out of "the fog" of the meds is worth it.

It is hard to tell if she is taking responsibility.  My guess is absolutely not, but at the restraining order hearing she saw 30 seconds of the 20 minutes of video I have of her raging.  Admitted that she blacked out and doesn't remember much of anything from that episode.  Then instead of presenting her case she apologized for hurting me.  I suspect it was a momentary flash of lucidity that has disappeared since, but since we have the no contact it is hard to know for sure.

what about you?    do you have a domestic violence counselor and what is their advice?

Yes.  I've been with a very good psychiatrist for a few years now.  We were every few weeks but now meet weekly.  I haven't had a chance to speak to her on this issue, as it was triggered by my last discussion with our niece.

I understand that modifying the restraining order gives her a place to live.   I'm fuzzy on how this helps the family?  

Longish story, but due to some irresponsible spending I cannot afford to get her a place to live.  That will be resolved around January of next year and we could get her an apartment.  Until then she either lives with family, here, on the streets, or she will get a boyfriend to house her.  She has burned bridges with all her friends and now almost all her family, so these are the only options I see.  She is incapable of holding a job at this point (my opinion).  I have a large house that can be completely separated upstairs and downstairs, so it is feasible that she could live in our home and still be independent from me.  Visitation and/or parenting time would be complicated but solvable.  It's not the ideal solution, but I'm hard pressed to come up with anything better.

[Ventak]

Also wanted to clarify if there is a psychiatrist involved now or are you considering what a psychiatrist may or may not do in the future?

Switching gears

What is the benefit of solving your wife's housing?

What is the downside of solving your wife's housing?

Thanks for joining in FF, you've been a ton of help with my journey so far...

I think I answered your question in my reply to ducks... let me know if I left anything out.

As for benefit, I'm fairly old fashioned (or maybe conservative) on my views of marriage and believe I have a moral and ethical responsibility to care for my family.  Letting my W live on the streets if it can be avoided breaches my personal moral compass.  As does letting my niece burn herself out on something that she shouldn't feel the responsibility.  She is doing an amazing job under difficult circumstances, but is in her mid-20's and has a husband and child of her own that need nurturing.

[Cat Familiar]

The proximity and potential to hurt you and your children concerns me should she live on your property.

That she claims she blacked out during the previous physical assault gives me pause. It could certainly happen again and having her close by makes it more likely.

I do understand that you feel a sense of responsibility for her welfare. However your children’s welfare needs to be prioritized as they don’t have a choice in how they could be impacted by her behavior, whereas your wife does have a choice about how she behaves.

[Ventak]

The proximity and potential to hurt you and your children concerns me should she live on your property.

That she claims she blacked out during the previous physical assault gives me pause. It could certainly happen again and having her close by makes it more likely.

I do understand that you feel a sense of responsibility for her welfare. However your children’s welfare needs to be prioritized as they don’t have a choice in how they could be impacted by her behavior, whereas your wife does have a choice about how she behaves.

Thanks Cat,

I was about to add to my post to FF, but my thoughts work well for what you posted...

My other huge concern is that while she is currently taking the steps she needs to restore her mental health, that could easily change in the near future if things go poorly for her.  It is not clear whether she is doing it because she realizes that she needs it (as she stated after the first assault), or if she is doing it because it is court ordered.  If she realizes that she needs it, I'm concerned that realization disappears once her environment becomes unstable.  Since her psychiatric assessment was done independent of the court orders I am open to the possibility that she is pursuing it because she knows she needs help at some level.  Though it could be she is just looking for validation of her Autism theory and will stop once that has been rejected.

The restraining order lasts another 10 months, and it isn't clear if I will be able to renew it.  Either way it is likely she will have unsupervised parenting time at some point short of suicide or completely abandoning the twins.  I want to do whatever I can to help her reach a point of stability that will lessen her impact on the twins as much as possible.  So sustaining her efforts at getting help is extremely important for the long term.

If she were maintaining the old pattern of refusing psychiatric care this would be a completely different discussion... at that point it becomes a question of how I help/protect our niece. 

[formflier]

Ventak

It would seem to me that you should reap the benefits of doing the hard work you have done up to now.

Your wife seems to have multiple layers of support and accountability in place.  I recommend you step back and let that work.

Let them teach her problem solving skills...

If you had 1/2 of the energy back that you were spending on/thinking about...etc etc, your wife...where do you think you would "put it".

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

FF,

Hard to see where she has the multiple levels of support from my perspective.  For the longer term, perhaps... but in the shorter term I only see my niece, who is already starting to become overwhelmed three weeks into a multi-month process, and so far she has only been exposed to the emotional/paranoid trauma my W feels, and my W is three weeks into her two to six week volcanic cycle.  I worry for my niece and her family when the explosion comes (not physical safety, but emotionally)

To answer your question, there are two phases to that issue.

First, I'm currently raising 2.5 year old twins, both special needs, while working full time and essentially doing 1.6 jobs since I'm covering most of someone's LOA for the next couple months.  My mom was going to help a couple mornings each week but her health is failing and so that isn't a viable option.  Because of the financial problems, paid help isn't an option.  With my 59th birthday less than a month away... what little free time I get is spent resting.  Since my mind never stops, rest is generally filled with worrying about my family (of which my W is about 1/3 of my worry time, the rest on my twins and parents).  I've started re-playing State of Decay 2 just to divert my brain elsewhere.

Second, I'm just now starting to work on "me" in therapy, instead of dealing with my frustration with W and trying to learn about setting boundaries.  After 20 years with an NPD mother, 28 years with an NPD first wife, and 10 years with a BPD second wife...  It turns out I don't know myself and my wants at all.  The only thing I know is caring for broken women.  My current assignment is to meditate (my words, not my therapist) on my emotional state and try to understand what I'm feeling.  This is turning out to be much more difficult than I'd thought as I don't seem to have much in the way of emotion.  I'm on the autism spectrum and currently wondering if this is due to ASD or a characteristic of a lifetime of being a caregiver.  It "feels" like I'm only able to feel the emotions of others, and almost incapable of having my own... except for the frustration I feel of not being able to solve other peoples' problems.  I had one counter-argument to that, which is that I get really happy or sad in certain emotional events in movies/television.  Then I realized that it is another example... I am projecting the emotions from the show to myself.  It is perplexing.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hey Ventak:
I'm not trying to be critical of you. Sometimes outsiders can see things that we miss.  Have you explored what appears to be a conflict in values? Can being conservative (old fashioned) and having an open marriage co-exist?

As for benefit, I'm fairly old fashioned (or maybe conservative) on my views of marriage and believe I have a moral and ethical responsibility to care for my family.  Letting my W live on the streets if it can be avoided breaches my personal moral compass.

I appreciate your sense of loyalty and wanting to be protective of your wife.  Just wondering if you have ever had an individual therapy discussion about the situation of you being old fashioned (conservative), and then being in an open marriage.

If I understand correctly (from prior posts), you were aware that your wife is bi, when you married.  Then, after marriage, she wanted an open marriage, which she has followed through on. 

I'm thinking that most conservative (old fashioned) people, would take this opportunity to make their children the top priority, avoid losing custody of the children (to social services), and thoroughly examine if an open marriage is something they want to continue in (especially since that wasn't something you bought into, at the time of marriage).

Have you explored what appears to be a conflict in values? Can conservative (old fashioned) values and an open marriage co-exist? Do you currently fully embrace an open marriage?  If you don't, why would you still want to rescue an abusive wife?  Although, I suspect a conservative person would want to hide the fact of an open marriage from your children?  How do you feel about having to explain it to them, at some point in the future?

Just seeing some contradiction in values & wondering if you have really sorted this out.  Have you just been acquiescing?

My opinion may sound harsh, but abusive behaviors need to be taken seriously.  You aren't helping yourself or your children, if you act out of (FOG) Fear, Obligation & Guilt.  It may feel good, momentarily, to bring her back to your house (without proven & sustainable changes on her part).  You could give her a place to stay and give up you children to Child Protective Services, all at the same time.

You are in the best situation to prompt your wife to get the treatment she needs.   If you don't let this play out with the courts and maintaining all of the protective orders, you are just kicking the can down the road, as the cycle of violence continues.

[Ventak]

Hey Ventak:
I'm not trying to be critical of you. Sometimes outsiders can see things that we miss.  Have you explored what appears to be a conflict in values? Can being conservative (old fashioned) and having an open marriage co-exist?

I said I was old fashioned/conservative, I never said I wasn't odd 

I'm not religious, and I think much of what you are referencing is religion based conservatism.  I'm a Libertarian, though I don't like much of that parties anarchist philosophy.  I'm more of a Robert Heinlein conservative...  which would have been considered far-left in the 50's but is now considered far-right.  Labels tend to be very fluid in this country.  So for me, loyalty, freedom, personal responsibility (which I extend to family), love of country, desire for small government, power of government at the local level, love of all people, and open-minded attitudes towards what adults choose for their own lives can all be compatible philosophies.  No one political label fits this, however.  I identify more often with conservatives than I do with leftists... thus the self-label.

The only problem I really have with the open relationship is that BPDw is insanely jealous, but accuses me of unexplained "betrayal" while claiming there isn't a jealous bone in her body.  So my issues are more BPD related than problems with an open relationship.  Had the philosophy of open marriage been incompatible I would have left years ago.  So the reality is that she ends up basically cheating over and over (almost exclusively online, avoids her extreme social anxiety), which is part of the problem for the past 10 months.  I was putting boundaries around that behavior that she found difficult to deal with at the same time she was going off her meds.

[Nothing major:  1) If you are going to chat with boyfriends I don't want to be in the room.. just let me know you want privacy and I'll go play xbox in my mancave.  2) If you are going to have phone calls with boyfriends I consider that a date and I don't want to be in the house.  Just let me know and I'll go get a haircut or buy groceries.  These boundaries were considered proof that I am "controlling" and "manipulative".  Her solution is for me to just go date other people and she will "prove" that she isn't jealous... except that failed the last 3 times she talked me into it and I'm not going to fall for that again.  Bringing that conversation up results in instant trigger/rage mode.]

Hope that makes sense.

I'm thinking that most conservative (old fashioned) people, would take this opportunity to make their children the top priority, avoid losing custody of the children (to social services), and thoroughly examine if an open marriage is something they want to continue in (especially since that wasn't something you bought into, at the time of marriage).

You are in the best situation to prompt your wife to get the treatment she needs.   If you don't let this play out with the courts and maintaining all of the protective orders, you are just kicking the can down the road, as the cycle of violence continues.

The children are definitely the top priority, which is what is making this so difficult.  Also why I think this is an unsolvable problem.  However, FF and Kells talked me through my last unsolvable problem and it worked out beautifully

She is currently getting treatment...  How long that lasts is the question, and how seriously she takes it.  Even then it feels to me like 6-12 months before enough progress has been made for me to feel safe with her and the kids.  At which point I can get her the apartment she wants.  My hope is that she makes enough progress that the strain on our niece is alleviated soon enough, but that seems unlikely.

One could argue that I'm getting way ahead of myself, but my brain likes to have problems solved long before they become problems.  Much less stressful life that way.

[khibomsis]

Ventak, what a difficult situation to be in! I was wondering, if it is possible to divide your house, then rent out the bottom half to a stable tenant and give your wife whatever share you think suitable ? Perhaps it may sweeten the pot for the niece or motivate some other family member.
That said, I feel sure that were she in her right mind she would want you to put the children first. Being a single parent of two young twins is already a lot, and then still the special needs. Taking responsibility for a mentally ill wife as well really is stretching yourself very thin. I totally understand those who are wanting you to put yourself first. Putting any extra money towards a child minder or some kind of support system for you is not a luxury, but a necessity.

[Ventak]

Ventak, what a difficult situation to be in! I was wondering, if it is possible to divide your house, then rent out the bottom half to a stable tenant and give your wife whatever share you think suitable ? Perhaps it may sweeten the pot for the niece or motivate some other family member.

Thanks khibomsis,

I had rejected that idea a couple months ago because she essentially moved downstairs herself in January.  Nothing else changed, it was bizarre, but it gave her some sense of having her own space.  In her paranoia she bought new locks for the doors..  I can get into them fairly easily, but I've been trying to honor her personal space.  The other rooms are very crowded with her overflow stuff.  She has 3 addictions, one of which is shopping...  so I would either need to get her access to the house to clean it up and pack stuff for storage, or do it myself and risk her blaming me for "lost items".

Now though, it might prove ideal.  She would be motivated to let me move her stuff if the alternative is living on the streets.  I should definitely be able to rent the basement for the cost of a 2-room apartment.  It has 1 Master, 2 bedrooms, office, gym, mancave, separate laundry.  I'd probably lock up the office though and keep that private.  Interesting idea.  She might even want to do that now if it gets her the independence she seeks, though that does create a higher suicide risk.

That said, I feel sure that were she in her right mind she would want you to put the children first. Being a single parent of two young twins is already a lot, and then still the special needs. Taking responsibility for a mentally ill wife as well really is stretching yourself very thin. I totally understand those who are wanting you to put yourself first. Putting any extra money towards a child minder or some kind of support system for you is not a luxury, but a necessity.

I do have hope that if she comes out the other side, she will realize that I made the right decisions for our family...

I've had 59 years of putting myself 2nd or 3rd, so taking care of me feels very unnatural.  But I am working on it.

Unfortunately, between her shopping and doctors expenses (twins were through surrogacy, lost 7 pregnancies some with IVF costs) there isn't any extra money and won't be for the next six months.  I've reduced spending by 75% since she left, so.. silver lining.  But I'm behind and in Ch. 13 so if I'm still behind on Dec. 31st I could lose the house and part of my 401k.  Next year I'll either need to get her an apartment or will be paying spousal support depending on if she proceeds with her D threats.  Child care just doesn't appear in the budget.  If I sell the house, all the equity goes to the bankruptcy court, so that would be a long term disaster.  Really in a bind

When I read this all, it sounds terrible. But I'm really not that stressed over the effects on me, moreso stressed about having probably lost her... she is the best friend I'd ever had (ignoring the past 10 months), the only person who ever made me feel loved, and I still care for her deeply.  I have a very high tolerance for stress, and forgive much too easily.

[khibomsis]

Ventak, you are welcome  It certainly sounds as if your basement could be put to better use then storing her stuff. I would say sell off as much as you can and rent out the space - she might be angry later but you are not in a position to care right now.

It is better to line up support before you need it. I don't want to make you anxious, but work on a scenario what happens should you catch flu for a week, for instance. It is going to be very difficult to put in support systems in an acute crisis.  That is why it is better to leave yourself some leeway financially and plan ahead." Prepare for the worst and hope for the best" we say in my part of the world.
 
It is terribly sad to be going through all this and still missing your best friend. Try to love yourself the way she loved you when she was OK. Maybe that will help.

[babyducks]

I'm very concerned about the state taking the children if there is another incidence.

After the first assault, child protective services opened a case.  They have not closed it, and told me that my W was unstable, HIGHLY recommended that my W not live in the house, HIGHLY recommended that I get the restraining order.  Those last two are in their handbook of things NOT to do, so the agent went out on a limb to make those recommendations.

It is hard to tell if she is taking responsibility.  My guess is absolutely not, but at the restraining order hearing she saw 30 seconds of the 20 minutes of video I have of her raging.  Admitted that she blacked out and doesn't remember much of anything from that episode.  

but in the shorter term I only see my niece, who is already starting to become overwhelmed three weeks into a multi-month process, and so far she has only been exposed to the emotional/paranoid trauma my W feels, and my W is three weeks into her two to six week volcanic cycle.  I worry for my niece and her family when the explosion comes (not physical safety, but emotionally)

Ventak - to me these are the key points in what you write.

I think the chance that you lose the children is real and the number one priority.    

I also think the evidence suggests your wife is continuing her downward trajectory.   In five weeks she has alienated her own family members and blew through her relationship with her sister.    this does not suggest she is at the stage of being able to cohabit in the family house with out another incident.    I think it suggests another incident is more than likely, and will probably be just a matter of time.   I think it is interesting that you are concerned for your niece's emotional safety and consider an explosion likely but are willing to risk that yourself.

if I had to list a set of priorities from a distance.    just scratch them out on a piece of paper they would probably look like this:

• children's emotional and physical safety
• your emotional and physical safety
• resolving legal and CPS open cases
• financial stability for you and the twins
• providing reasonable support for your wife should she cooperate

I'm going to remind you of what you already know.  your wife finds herself in these circumstances because of decisions she made.   to stop her medication.   to reject the diagnosis.    she is very ill.    and help can and should be provided but not at the expense of you or the children.     Help can be provided as long as risk is mitigated and I do not see enough risk mitigation here to warrant returning her to the house.   there is a fine line between helping and enabling.    

I find myself in agreement with khibomsis.     have a garage sale of the overflow stuff you are storing.   rent out the basement.    provide her with a reasonable amount of funds to make her own decisions.   if the garage sale generates enough money along with the rental, help her obtain a short term lease.    

my two cents
'ducks

 

[alterK]

Not trying to be critical, Ventak, but aren't you kind of setting yourself a problem with no good solution? Is "living on the streets" your W's only alternative to being sheltered with you or another family member?
Where I live there are a number of so-called "personal care homes," kind of glorified boarding houses that have ties to the mental health system. Surely, there are other possibilities?

Having her live downstairs in your house seems like asking for trouble.

You may be accustomed to it after so many years, but your W's behavior sounds pretty off the wall. If she is truly unable to care for herself, does she need inpatient treatment? Every state is different, but in most places you can go before a judge and petition for someone to be hospitalized. That might sound cruel to you, but many people with severe mental health problems actually feel more comfortable in the protected environment of a hospital where routine and rules are very clear.

[Ventak]

Ventak - to me these are the key points in what you write.

I think the chance that you lose the children is real and the number one priority.    

I also think the evidence suggests your wife is continuing her downward trajectory.   In five weeks she has alienated her own family members and blew through her relationship with her sister.    this does not suggest she is at the stage of being able to cohabit in the family house with out another incident.    I think it suggests another incident is more than likely, and will probably be just a matter of time.   I think it is interesting that you are concerned for your niece's emotional safety and consider an explosion likely but are willing to risk that yourself.

I find myself in agreement with khibomsis.     have a garage sale of the overflow stuff you are storing.   rent out the basement.    provide her with a reasonable amount of funds to make her own decisions.   if the garage sale generates enough money along with the rental, help her obtain a short term lease.    

Thanks ducks, I'm leaning heavily towards the rent out the basement scenario.  While the garage sale idea sounds reasonable, it feels a bit disrespectful.  I don't really feel that those are my things to make decisions on.  I could justify it to myself, but it wouldn't feel "right".  I do have about 300 sq. ft. of storage area that is poorly organized.  If I were to stack boxes in an organized fashion I could get the overflow taken care of.  It will no doubt still result in her blaming me for losing or ruining her stuff, but it's a blame I can live with.

Not trying to be critical, Ventak, but aren't you kind of setting yourself a problem with no good solution? Is "living on the streets" your W's only alternative to being sheltered with you or another family member?

You may be accustomed to it after so many years, but your W's behavior sounds pretty off the wall. If she is truly unable to care for herself, does she need inpatient treatment? Every state is different, but in most places you can go before a judge and petition for someone to be hospitalized. That might sound cruel to you, but many people with severe mental health problems actually feel more comfortable in the protected environment of a hospital where routine and rules are very clear.

Thanks alterk,
I've consulted our family doctor, my psychiatrist, and two lawyers... all who tell me that until she tries to kill herself (or me) I can't compel her into a facility.  Our insurance will cover in-patient care if she takes herself to an emergency room and tells them she wants to commit suicide, but it would need to come from her.  She does not appear to be at a place that she would do that.  Her pain doctor prescribed an Intensive Outpatient Psychiatric program that she told my attorney at the restraining order hearing she would be doing, but from what I can tell from my neice, that did not happen.

Great thoughts though, thanks!

[Ventak]

I also think the evidence suggests your wife is continuing her downward trajectory.   In five weeks she has alienated her own family members and blew through her relationship with her sister.    this does not suggest she is at the stage of being able to cohabit in the family house with out another incident.    I think it suggests another incident is more than likely, and will probably be just a matter of time.   I think it is interesting that you are concerned for your niece's emotional safety and consider an explosion likely but are willing to risk that yourself.

I'm going to remind you of what you already know.  your wife finds herself in these circumstances because of decisions she made.   to stop her medication.   to reject the diagnosis.    she is very ill.    and help can and should be provided but not at the expense of you or the children.     Help can be provided as long as risk is mitigated and I do not see enough risk mitigation here to warrant returning her to the house.   there is a fine line between helping and enabling.    

Brilliant thoughts by the way...

I find this forum so beneficial.  Sometimes just reading what I wrote brings perspective, I just can't believe how I discard as meaningless some really horrid behavior.  Sometimes the insight I get from others would never have occurred to me.  Sometimes the insight I get from others I'm too close to the situation to see, or too emotionally involved to want to see.

You all are truly a gift, and I can never thank you enough.

[formflier]

I think the chance that you lose the children is real and the number one priority.    

Sometimes saying things simply is best. 

I recommend taking almost all the "brain space" and energy that has been "given" to your wife/fixing your wife/your wife's living situation/your wife's (fill in the blank) and devote it to you and your children.

More specifically to be able to objectively demonstrate that you have been deliberate over time about making your home a place where your children can grow up in a healthy environment and also heal from what YOUR WIFE SUBJECTED THEM TO.

You wife will have to demonstrate at certain points in her life that she has or hasn't made improvements...let her and her team worry about that.

I do think it is appropriate to have focused questions ready for when she and perhaps "they" try to declare her fit to be a mom again...and yet she hasn't gone to the inpatient thing she was prescribed and you and multiple others are aware of her promises to do so.

There are hard facts to face.

You cannot "save" another adult that is destroying themselves.

You can "raise" children in a healthy manner...this is within your power.

It is possible that you put so much energy into "saving" an adult that you do a poor job of raising children.

You have courts and social services breathing down your family's neck, so it's likely they may "notice" your misplaced priorities.

Your job is to make sure they NOTICE your proper priorities and if they somehow miss a few, that you are ready to prove to them/show them all the good stuff you are doing.

Best,

FF

[kells76]

Hi again Ventak;

I think the chance that you lose the children is real and the number one priority.

I 110% agree with every poster here.

It is too easy for me to imagine a scenario where "even though" the house could be "divided" in two... when have any boundaries of any sort ever dissuaded her? What would stop her from coming to "your side", confronting you once again when the kids are with you, coming at you, and once again you find yourself holding your babies and running for help? The fact that you "wanted to help her" will not mean anything to authorities who want at least ONE of the two of you to help the kids.

If she is too unstable to find her own housing, then why would she be stable enough to live in part of your house?

If she is stable enough to find her own housing, then why would she need to live with you?

Related:

Is "living on the streets" your W's only alternative to being sheltered with you or another family member?
Where I live there are a number of so-called "personal care homes," kind of glorified boarding houses that have ties to the mental health system. Surely, there are other possibilities?

alterK and I were on the same brainwave! If you're in the state and city I think you're in (you don't have to answer publicly), I did a Google search for "City, State transitional housing", and there are options. It's not "car, family or me". If it helps, provide that list to her treatment team. Even that would be going above and beyond.

And really...

She has a treatment team. Isn't it their job to... help her? I can't imagine they are unaware that people need a place to live. If you're concerned about her living situation, contact her treatment team and let them know you want them to be aware she needs a place to live. Beyond that... it's her team. They will help her as much as they can.

If she ends up not having a roof over her head... is it because "nobody helped?"

[Ventak]

Thanks FF, Kells.  Your advice is always appreciated.

It is too easy for me to imagine a scenario where "even though" the house could be "divided" in two... when have any boundaries of any sort ever dissuaded her?

Okay, so I've definitely ruled out the "have her live in the basement" scenario.  Keeping open to the "rent out the basement" to afford her having her own apartment sooner than would otherwise be possible.  Want to process that for a while.  Choice is now down to renting my basement, or make no changes to my personal home.  I'm slightly concerned that another family living here could be disruptive for the kids (and me) as well.  A distraction I don't need, and can't afford at this time.

There is a hearing in 8 days and I should have a better understanding of where she is in the process at that hearing.  From her niece I've learned that she no longer has an attorney, but I'm completely in the dark as to how that happened as she had a public defender at the last hearing.  I also heard that her mom gave her money for an attorney (criminal?, civil?, unknown) and there was an argument about why she hasn't hired one along with other issues that upset W.  Now my W has a feeling of abandonment from her family, and feels only her niece cares.  Interestingly, my MIL tagged me in someone else's "memory" on Facebook.  I felt this was her way of telling the family that it is now "okay" to interact with me.  They've been on "ignore" for a couple months.

alterK and I were on the same brainwave! If you're in the state and city I think you're in (you don't have to answer publicly), I did a Google search for "City, State transitional housing", and there are options. It's not "car, family or me". If it helps, provide that list to her treatment team. Even that would be going above and beyond.

She has a treatment team. Isn't it their job to... help her? I can't imagine they are unaware that people need a place to live. If you're concerned about her living situation, contact her treatment team and let them know you want them to be aware she needs a place to live. Beyond that... it's her team. They will help her as much as they can.

I had not considered her treatment team over and above specific health issues, but you are likely correct that her being homeless would be a huge barrier to both physical and mental health recovery and they would likely be a great resource for her finding something.

The difficulty here is one of those catch-22 situations.  Due to my income, getting any sort of assistance is nearly impossible, ignoring the fact that most assistance centers in my city are backlogged for many months.  Her solution to this has been to get divorced... but that would also result in her losing her treatment team (it's a benefit from my insurance).  I'm personally convinced she has no hope of recovery if she loses her health benefits from being married to me, and is one of the things I'm most protective of for her... it's the one thing I can effectively control that helps her.

Feel free to DM me on your prediction of my location.. I'm curious how accurate you are

More specifically to be able to objectively demonstrate that you have been deliberate over time about making your home a place where your children can grow up in a healthy environment and also heal from what YOUR WIFE SUBJECTED THEM TO.

You cannot "save" another adult that is destroying themselves.

You can "raise" children in a healthy manner...this is within your power.

You have courts and social services breathing down your family's neck, so it's likely they may "notice" your misplaced priorities.

Your job is to make sure they NOTICE your proper priorities and if they somehow miss a few, that you are ready to prove to them/show them all the good stuff you are doing.

This one is interesting.  I've suffered from the police and the courts a certain level of gender discrimination... Okay, a LOT of gender discrimination that may cost an officer his job.  I do tend to get the opposite effect from child protective services ("I don't know how you do it") and my children's medical support team, which is fairly large.  While the rhetoric of our current culture would have one think that gender roles and perceptions are converging... this does not seem consistent with my experience with parenting.  I'm treated almost like a mutant that can ascend walls and walk on water...  While I think I'm a good parent, I don't think a female would get the same level of amazement even though there are way too many of them that are doing what I do every day.

That said, I am: Getting D set up with federal disability program which will protect her for her lifetime; Getting D set up with intensive in-home therapy (20-40 hrs/week) for her disability; Spending 3-4 hours a week on occupational and speech therapy appointments with both children.  Keeping the home safety at a peak level.  Etc...  So I think this base is well covered.

I do think it is appropriate to have focused questions ready for when she and perhaps "they" try to declare her fit to be a mom again...and yet she hasn't gone to the inpatient thing she was prescribed and you and multiple others are aware of her promises to do so.

For me this boils down to a single question.  Did a psychiatrist "clear" her to be safe to have unsupervised visitations.  Follow up:  Please let me see the report.  Does the report show that the psychiatrist clearly understood that there was violence towards me while I held the children, causing violence towards them?  If no, then I need to discuss with the psychiatrist to assure myself he understands fully what the issues are.  If yes, does the report indicate why they feel she is safe.  If no (or I don't understand the answer), then I need to discuss with the psychiatrist to assure myself she understands fully what the issues are.

I will not set myself into the trap of her manipulating an incompetent therapist into a false assessment.

[kells76]

Okay, so I've definitely ruled out the "have her live in the basement" scenario.  Keeping open to the "rent out the basement" to afford her having her own apartment sooner than would otherwise be possible.  Want to process that for a while.  Choice is now down to renting my basement, or make no changes to my personal home.  I'm slightly concerned that another family living here could be disruptive for the kids (and me) as well.  A distraction I don't need, and can't afford at this time.

Makes sense. Glad to hear you are OK with not rescuing her by housing her.

Also makes sense to take your time to consider whether subletting is right for you.

We have sublet a room in our house (not separated "inlaw" type living space, but normal connected bedroom) to 4 different renters over the last 8 years or so. The two best fits have been single women, our current housemate is actually closer in age to SD15 than to me so it's a little like having a college-age child  , but probably the best fit was a single grandma in her late 60s. She thought the kids were great, had her own life/hobbies going, was really chill and just great calm vibes. I mention this to say that we didn't just Craigslist the room... not with two young girls in the house. We definitely waited for the right fit and took the $ hit to wait, and it was very worth it. Not sure what your social circles are, but consider "targeting" retiree grandmas. She was on a fixed income so we did fixed rent+util's every month and it was a win win. I agree you probably don't need crazy kids/another large family in the house, but maybe if it's older girls (late HS/early college?) they could be calm, think your kids are cute, and keep an even keel (or want to babysit?). Reach out through your social/work groups and see who matches the "vibes" you want in your home.

The difficulty here is one of those catch-22 situations.  Due to my income, getting any sort of assistance is nearly impossible, ignoring the fact that most assistance centers in my city are backlogged for many months.  Her solution to this has been to get divorced... but that would also result in her losing her treatment team (it's a benefit from my insurance).  I'm personally convinced she has no hope of recovery if she loses her health benefits from being married to me, and is one of the things I'm most protective of for her... it's the one thing I can effectively control that helps her.

You're one of the few members here who sound like a good fit for "legal separation". IIRC, that allows the spouse to keep insurance and other benefits, while for all other purposes there is legal notice that you aren't married. I wonder if that would also effectively legally "lower her income" enough to be eligible for that level of services. Check with your L.

Of course, if she is pushing for divorce no matter what, not sure you can stop her. But if you and your L can pitch "legal separation" to her in a way that makes her feel like she's winning... that could be something.

It is also worth considering that she may be so committed to feeling "not controlled" by you that she would shoot herself in the foot by divorcing and losing her entire treatment team, rather than feel like "you won" and "controlled her" by doing your suggestion of legal separation or "married living apart".

I get the desire to have her keep insurance... that is very rational... but it may need to be presented in a "don't you feel like you're winning and I'm losing" way versus "it is irrational of you to divorce" way. If that makes sense.

So, yes, check with your L about what LS would look like and if that could be a good fit.

That said, I am: Getting D set up with federal disability program which will protect her for her lifetime; Getting D set up with intensive in-home therapy (20-40 hrs/week) for her disability; Spending 3-4 hours a week on occupational and speech therapy appointments with both children.  Keeping the home safety at a peak level.  Etc...  So I think this base is well covered.

That's awesome. It'll be so good for your D to have all this going when she is still so young. And there is "automatic documentation" that you are the involved parent. (SD13 only got SPED services this year but probably could have used them as early as 2nd grade.)

For me this boils down to a single question.  Did a psychiatrist "clear" her to be safe to have unsupervised visitations.  Follow up:  Please let me see the report.  Does the report show that the psychiatrist clearly understood that there was violence towards me while I held the children, causing violence towards them?  If no, then I need to discuss with the psychiatrist to assure myself he understands fully what the issues are.  If yes, does the report indicate why they feel she is safe.  If no (or I don't understand the answer), then I need to discuss with the psychiatrist to assure myself she understands fully what the issues are.

I will not set myself into the trap of her manipulating an incompetent therapist into a false assessment.

Yes, that is an excellent mindset. You're getting the hang of it -- you "drive the car" on selecting the psych who evaluates W. Exactly.

And, you get that there is no rush on you understanding all the implications of any report. You can always say "I need some time to make sure I fully understand this document before I proceed". Even tangential involvement of a pwBPD in decision-making scenarios can increase this weird sense of urgency or "you have to decide RIGHTNOW". Slow and steady instead. There is always time to read it twice and take a day or two to really understand. Good mindset 

[formflier]

It is also worth considering that she may be so committed to feeling "not controlled" by you that she would shoot herself in the foot by divorcing and losing her entire treatment team, rather than feel like "you won" and "controlled her" by doing your suggestion of legal separation or "married living apart".
 

Keep this in mind...

So...if you offer help with an apartment...she doesn't want control and deliberately chooses street/shelter...etc etc, for no other reason than the battle with you and showing she is not you.

My P often says my wife is "terrified of loosing her autonomy".  That is a kissing cousin to being the "anti-ff" and one of the reasons we no longer have joint finances.  

Weirdly...even if I am 100% in agreement with her, it often freaks her out.  If there are spaces in her life where I can hold my tongue and let he have or appear to have 100% autonomy...she seems to be ok.


For you, either way (if she is "fighting you" or "wanting autonomy") the healthy play is the same...let her do her.

Switching gears.

Should it ever come to pass that you and others believe it wise to help your wife financially.

1.  NEVER hand money to her, pay a bill/thing/obligation directly.

2.  NEVER help with the "first dollar".  NEVER

So..number 2 might look like.  After you have demonstrated/verified to my satisfaction with a pay stub that you have earned $1000 in a month (or other..higher...sum) I will match the next $500 dollar for dollar and pay directly to your (fill in name of bill).

You may wish to add verification of what she is spending the first 1000 on.

Critical you don't get anywhere near "enabling" her...

I wonder why her relatives didn't pay this "lawyer" directly?

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

We have sublet a room in our house (not separated "inlaw" type living space, but normal connected bedroom) to 4 different renters over the last 8 years or so. The two best fits have been single women, our current housemate is actually closer in age to SD15 than to me so it's a little like having a college-age child   , but probably the best fit was a single grandma in her late 60s.

Great advice!  I was thinking a family to get all rooms filled, but renting out one or two rooms might be better and easier to find that "good fit" that is critical for these type situations.

You're one of the few members here who sound like a good fit for "legal separation". IIRC, that allows the spouse to keep insurance and other benefits, while for all other purposes there is legal notice that you aren't married. I wonder if that would also effectively legally "lower her income" enough to be eligible for that level of services. Check with your L.

Unfortunately insurance companies have closed that particular "loophole".  I've had a couple attorneys tell me that isn't an option if the goal is to keep her insured.  The only viable option is a "non-legal" separation...  That would allow her to have the independence she thinks she needs, but also give her the financial security net I think she needs.  Since our finances are controlled by the bankruptcy courts, and our children are controlled by the criminal/civil courts a divorce won't change our situation much... as those courts supercede divorce court.  Divorce could separate our bankruptcies and she could then go chapter 7 and be done with it... allowing her to access government assistance.  

So she needs to determine the tradeoff of financial independence vs. the safety net I provide.  Since child custody is set for the next 10 months, she would be taking the risk of having to go back to court to improve her time with the children post divorce... an expensive proposition, and she couldn't make me pay for it then.  The "rational" thing for her to do is to stay married.  Since she has shown no sign of making rational decisions in her own best interest I have to believe there is something else preventing her from following through on her multiple claims that her divorce is in process and I will hear from her attorney "next week".

Of course, if she is pushing for divorce no matter what, not sure you can stop her. But if you and your L can pitch "legal separation" to her in a way that makes her feel like she's winning... that could be something.

It is also worth considering that she may be so committed to feeling "not controlled" by you that she would shoot herself in the foot by divorcing and losing her entire treatment team, rather than feel like "you won" and "controlled her" by doing your suggestion of legal separation or "married living apart".

It is really hard to understand what she wants regarding divorce.  In general, I've learned to ignore just about everything she says and learn what she wants by her actions.  Over the years she has brought up divorce about 100 times... about 30 times telling me to hire a lawyer.. about 10 times telling me she has contacted a lawyer... but nada.  While I think she is more serious this time... still nada.

Interesting that you say that... I've never thought of that in "BPD" or "controlling" concerns.  She has always strongly resisted being told what to do.  I've even experimented a couple times over the years on small, insignificant things.  She will literally do the exact opposite of what she is "told" or "advised" to do, unless she specifically asks for the advice.  I always wait for her to make the first move on important issues.

I get the desire to have her keep insurance... that is very rational... but it may need to be presented in a "don't you feel like you're winning and I'm losing" way versus "it is irrational of you to divorce" way. If that makes sense.

I keep reading that advice in threads on this forum.  I really need to learn this skill...  Even with divorce she will be a force in our lives and I will need to work to get what is best for our twins.  This skill seems critical.

To address the specific issue.  My "instinct" way to handle this situation is to remind her that:  If we divorce she will lose health insurance which covers her treatment team and pain meds; Divorce will not eradicate the restraining order custody terms; I have always told her that I was hers until she doesn't want me anymore;  If she is telling me she doesn't want me anymore, even though I don't think it's our best path forward I will honor her request;  Should I contact the mediator we consulted to start the process or do you need time to think about it?

Yes, that is an excellent mindset. You're getting the hang of it -- you "drive the car" on selecting the psych who evaluates W. Exactly.

I still feel a little bit guilty about this one... it was a clear manipulation adding that condition to the RO.  She will believe that a psychiatrist approval is her get out of jail free card, but the court is the one that will be deciding and I'll have time to research and present to the court if I agree or disagree.  Additionally, one of us will have to bring it to the court, and she generally relies on me to make those moves... so I expect to have plenty of time to gauge a confidence level.

So...if you offer help with an apartment...she doesn't want control and deliberately chooses street/shelter...etc etc, for no other reason than the battle with you and showing she is not you.

For you, either way (if she is "fighting you" or "wanting autonomy") the healthy play is the same...let her do her.

This is one area our relationship dynamic is... interesting.  She wants me to be a strong male leader.. but doesn't tell her what to do.. but also recommends we do exactly what she happened to want.. but doesn't ask, just does.  It is up to me to figure out what she wants, and do it... my P doesn't like the "guessing" in our relationship, and I have been working on it.  It's a dynamic I know I have to break, but I've been starting with the small stuff.

Should it ever come to pass that you and others believe it wise to help your wife financially.

1.  NEVER hand money to her, pay a bill/thing/obligation directly.
2.  NEVER help with the "first dollar".  NEVER

Critical you don't get anywhere near "enabling" her...

Fortunately I've had a lot of experience with leeching relatives from my first marriage and learned how to insure money is spent as needed.  Long stories there, but this is an area I feel confident I'm on top of.  I currently give her $900/month to cover her expenses as well as paying her car and insurance.  I'm willing to add renting an apartment on top of that once it is financially feasible (late this year), but that would be in my name and I would make the payments myself.

This one is difficult.  She has legitimate physical health issues that she is dealing with.  I've been the sole wage earner since 2012 as she dealt with the loss of seven pregnancies, three in the 2nd trimester...  and then the pain problems.  Her physical health is slowly improving, but maintaining full-time employment would be questionable even without the emotional instability.  Since we are still married, all the money is "our" money...  I have to be careful to make sure I'm not seen as punishing her by withholding her needs of food/shelter.  Not clear how I do that and not enable her at the same time...

[khibomsis]

Ventak, I am glad to see you have a plan and are taking action. I am totally with Kells brainwave about taking your time and making sure your tenant is a good fit. I once almost rented rooms in my house to a family with a severely autistic child. They needed something more rural, there was still too much sensory input, but just to show that there are sympathetic people everywhere. Ask around on your networks and the right one/s will come.

As for storing the possessions you bought her instead of using the proceeds to stave off bankruptcy, I have nothing to say. It is your property and you have the right to do whatever enables you to live with yourself in the future.

In respect of all the other decisions you have to make for your wife and yourself, please bear in mind that you know exactly how to control her. You are blessed beyond belief and most of us nons would give anything to be in your shoes. Remember that you are the closest thing to a functioning adult brain your family has at the moment. Don't let crazy run your life. What she thinks is irrelevant at the current moment outside of staving off dysregulations. She is out of her mind. Consider the matter well, make up your mind what is best for your wife to do and propose to her she does the exact opposite. Maybe in writing would be best with a list and checkboxes

[formflier]

So wait...you give her money and then trust her to spend it appropriately?

Does she provide receipts and proof she is spending it wisely?

My head is spinning here...

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

So wait...you give her money and then trust her to spend it appropriately?

Does she provide receipts and proof she is spending it wisely?

My head is spinning here...

The money I give her is for her food, clothing, gifts, gas, entertainment, makeup/jewelry, etc...   If she decides to blow it all on jewelry and eat ramen noodles for three meals... that is a her problem, not a me problem.

My algorithm for deciding how much to give was based on the budget the bankruptcy court gave us.  Adult only expenses like gas she gets 1/2.  Entire family items like food she gets 1/3.  This will be easily proven in court and insures that her claims of me leaving her penniless on the streets are met with a thud.  Those claims worked on her family for a while, but that well seems dry now..

By doing this and taking complete control over finances I've managed to knock out 25% excess spending each month.  This will allow me to get back in the black around October.  Once I get in the black I want to have two months expenses saved for emergency... and then I'm willing to use half of that 25% I've saved monthly for her apartment.

Head spinning less?

[formflier]

Wait..why not get in the black and keep building your savings, let her get her own apartment?

Dude...think about this...

You are planning that when you get money that a court will allow you to use in a discretionary manner...you are actively planning to spend it on the person that essentially put you in BK in the first place.

And..that helps her learn the value of a dollar how?

Let her earn and budget her own money...is there really another way she will ever learn this?


Best,

FF

[kells76]

I get that you are concerned that your twins' mom could be out on the street.

Bracketing the question of "whose choice it is/under whose control it is"...

Why not work with her treatment team on housing/$ issues? Slowly start handing those responsibilities to them.

I wonder if "tapering" $ with a set end date could be a "compromise" way forward.

Because I agree with FF... it might not actually be helping her, long term, if she never has to learn, on her own, to manage her own $. And, "learning to manage her own $" might look like "getting support from her team to manage $" or something, learning to ask for budget help from someone else, etc.

I wonder what it'd be like to present to her trxmt team (in some kind of written document/email):

Hey, I can provide W with $1000 this month, $900 next month, $800 in August, etc, and so on until $0 (in whatever month that is). I wanted you guys to know that so you could support her with getting her needs met.

Food for thought...

[Ventak]

Let her earn and budget her own money...is there really another way she will ever learn this?

Two issues here:

1)  She does have legitimate physical health problems which for at least the next year or two are likely to prevent her from working more than 2-3 hours a day, if that.

2)  My primary concern is her following up on her mental health recovery.   That will be a condition of me getting an apartment in the future, and is a condition of her spending time with the twins now.  In my opinion, anything I can do to keep the momentum in that direction will be of direct benefit for the twins down the road.

There is a lot of time for her to mess up between now and December... and she still doesn't seem to have bottomed out, so those plans could easily become moot.  I'll probably be back on this forum next October/November