Dealing with verbal abuse - part 1001

[globalnomad]

I've been too busy to post on here for a while, with a lot of life changes and a pending overseas move.

Still having a lot of trouble dealing with the issue of verbal abuse, despite some good advice I've gotten on here in the past. An example just from the past day:

a) My pwBPD wife was going through our credit card statement and noticed that there was a recurring charge from my Amazon account that we never ordered. Conversation went like this:

wife: did you order x on Amazon?
me: no I didn't. why?
wife: we're being billed $11 a month.
me: that's strange. it must be a mistake.
wife: it must have been you. you're always doing dumb stuff like that.
me: hmm.
wife: i need you to call them now and cancel it. (raising voice already)
me: i'll look into it.
wife: I mean right now (getting more and more agitated)
me: sure - i have to get into the account first.
wife: why is it taking you so long? just choose the customer service chat option.
me: i can't find a chat option - where is that?
wife: my god you're a dumb f***. you're so slow at everything.
me: sorry, would you like to repeat that?
wife: yeah I said you were a dumb f***. you are.
me: would you like to handle this instead?
wife: no, fix your own damn problems. i've never met anybody who's so bad at stuff like this.

At this point I walked to another room to take care of the problem. Returned 20 minutes later and the rant resumed. At that point I just walked off to bed feeling angry and depressed.

Any thoughts on what I could have done better?

To elaborate a bit, in the past I would have made things much worse by yelling back at her and getting into a pointless circular argument about the way she was speaking to me. I've gotten better at not taking the bait. But it feels like I haven't really resolved the fundamental issue.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Jabiru]

Congrats on the move 

When does it go from tolerable to not? Calling you dumb? Raising her voice? Cursing at you? Those are possibilities to consider a limit.

Were you busy at the time? Maybe you could say you'll do it later that night or the next day. That way your flow isn't interrupted and she doesn't start expecting you to drop everything if she asks a favor.

Have you heard of the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist? It really helped me to fundamentally change how I handle things.

[globalnomad]

Congrats on the move 

When does it go from tolerable to not? Calling you dumb? Raising her voice? Cursing at you? Those are possibilities to consider a limit.

Thanks Jabiru. What a coincidence - I actually just started reading that book last night. So far I am finding it really insightful. It made me realize I have been stuck in that "denial-anger-bargaining-depression" loop she talks about for a long time.

As for your question, I think I draw the line at name calling and cursing. The difficulty I have had in the past is finding a way to gracefully exit at that point without escalating things further. 

[Jabiru]

Cool. I had to slow myself to a chapter a day to make sure the contents really absorbed. Added it to my periodic reading list.

As for your question, I think I draw the line at name calling and cursing. The difficulty I have had in the past is finding a way to gracefully exit at that point without escalating things further. 

Limits are to protect yourself. The pwBPD will probably get angry when you stick to your limits. If your limit is passed, you could say you need 30 minutes of alone time and simply exit the room. Don't justify, attack, defend, or explain (JADE) as these normally make the situation worse. It can be graceful from your side but I think trying to appease them when they're in dysregulation is a losing game. It feels strange in the moment but my experience is it's best for the long term. Good luck.

[globalnomad]

Thanks again Jabiru. I'm reading it very slowly and it really has been extremely helpful already.

[formflier]

I'm curious to know about the desire for a "graceful" exit?

Are we talking once a week for this kind of thing...or once a month..or daily?

Best,

FF

[globalnomad]

Thanks FF. Graceful exit was probably not the best way to describe it - more finding a way to exit without inflaming things such that she’s going to chase me into the other room.

This is happening a couple of times a week I’d say.

[formflier]

Is it possible that you are focusing too much on the "how" to leave..than the leaving?

Best,

FF

[globalnomad]

Is it possible that you are focusing too much on the "how" to leave..than the leaving?

Best,

FF

Entirely possible! For context, I think the reason why is that in the past when I tried to do this she has at times followed me, or even blocked my path as I try to exit the room. That hasn't happened for a while. But it probably weighing on the back of my mind.

[formflier]

So...if that ever happens again what will you do?

Do you understand that is her choice and not yours?

Best,

FF

[once removed]

no, i think you handled this with grace and as well as you could.

im wondering what you and your wife are like in times of calm.

has the fact that she speaks like this ever come up in a way that the two of you are reflective about it, that she acknowledges it?

theres not a lot you can do in the moment, outside of what you did. theres a lot, potentially, that can be done in a time of calm.

[JadedEmpath]

For what its worth, I think you killed it! Strong self regulation on your part friend 

These situations are often hard for me because then I feel like I cant complete the task. At the point where you asked her if she wants to repeat her comment, thats where I usually say something like "I don't mind to fix this issue, but if you continue to talk down to me like that, I will leave you to fix it on your own". Which, of course is almost like a dare, and he always crosses that line. And then I am frustrated because I want to fix the problem but I'm stubborn and there is no way I am going to with out an apology.

I tend to have a hard time knowing how to set boundaries in those situations. I feel like I should not just tolerate those behaviors by continuing to do what he has asked me to do, but I also feel like it makes life a lot harder if I refuse to do something that needs to be done in response to his behavior. Did you have this dilemma in mind during this conflict? Or how do you look at things that you don't feel this way? 

[CookeiCrum]

I don't know how it is for others, but I find these situations hard because it feels like she is reaching into my mind and just confirming everything that I already fear about myself. So what I do is basically draw a line in my own head and say to myself that she is on the other side of that line and try to turn what she is saying into just a kind of noise.

For the communication between me and her I use something that a couples therapist suggested, which is basically return the conversation back to the matter at hand. I always imagine this comments like "god you're so slow", "You're so incompetent, I'd be better on my own because then I wouldn't have to deal with your stupidity" as kind of paths or roads that lead away from the subject at hand and into somewhere else. So I just keep stubbornly reminding her about the actual task at hand and try to bring her back. She doesn't like it, but will actually back down after a while.

All that is however extermly exhausting, especially when she is struggling and what feels like every activity turns into basically me trying to keep her focused and at the same basically keeping myself from having a panic attack

[globalnomad]

So...if that ever happens again what will you do?

Do you understand that is her choice and not yours?

Best,

FF

Thanks FF. By that did you mean the blocking? In general my goal in these type of interactions is to leave earlier as soon as it escalates to any kind of name calling or verbal abuse. I've tried the type of response that JadedEmpath mentions -- something like "I'm happy to do this now but will have to leave it to you if you continue to talk to me like this" -- and I also find it only invites further boundary crossing. I've had more success with something like "I need to cool down for a bit -- I'll handle it in the other room" and walk away.

[globalnomad]

no, i think you handled this with grace and as well as you could.

im wondering what you and your wife are like in times of calm.

has the fact that she speaks like this ever come up in a way that the two of you are reflective about it, that she acknowledges it?

theres not a lot you can do in the moment, outside of what you did. theres a lot, potentially, that can be done in a time of calm.

Great question. She's acknowledged a few times in moments of calm that she can be "difficult to live with." And that her mother would frequently yell at her father and sometimes hit him when upset during her childhood, so that's the pattern she grew up with. But then it's usually "you just need to deal with it because this is who i am."

[globalnomad]

For the communication between me and her I use something that a couples therapist suggested, which is basically return the conversation back to the matter at hand. I always imagine this comments like "god you're so slow", "You're so incompetent, I'd be better on my own because then I wouldn't have to deal with your stupidity" as kind of paths or roads that lead away from the subject at hand and into somewhere else. So I just keep stubbornly reminding her about the actual task at hand and try to bring her back. She doesn't like it, but will actually back down after a while.

Thanks CookeiCrum - I've gotten some similar advice and although this approach feels unsatisfying (doesn't seem to address the issue of being used as a permanent emotional punching bag) it has worked better than almost anything else I've tried in at least not further escalating the situation.

[formflier]

By that did you mean the blocking?

Yes...and to be specific I'm not asking how to avoid or limit chances of blocking (we are on the same track there).

I am asking that you deliberately think through what EXACTLY you will do the next time she actually blocks or traps or physically prevents your free movement.

I'm sure you would agree this was stressful and NOT something to "figure out in the moment".

So...?  What will you do when "next time" happens?

Best,

FF

[globalnomad]

I am asking that you deliberately think through what EXACTLY you will do the next time she actually blocks or traps or physically prevents your free movement.


FF

You're right I need to have a gameplan for this. It's easier for me to say what I won't do: touch her in any way or escalate things further. Probably just retreat and sit down somewhere calmly. And then try again a bit later. If ever physically prevented again from leaving my own apartment I would have to call police. The problem with this last option is that I know it would inflame things further and I have very little confidence in law enforcement in this country when it comes to handling domestic disputes (good chance I would end up getting accused of something).

[formflier]

I would have to call police. The problem with this last option is that I know it would inflame things further and I have very little confidence in law enforcement in this country when it comes to handling domestic disputes (good chance I would end up getting accused of something).

I'm interested in your thoughts about how it would "inflame things"? 

Best,

FF

[globalnomad]

I'm interested in your thoughts about how it would "inflame things"? 

Best,

FF

I suspect the very threat to call police would invite boundary crossing that make it even more necessary to do so. That said, I need to be prepared to do this.

[formflier]

Two things.  I would NEVER ever threaten to call police.  I would just do it.  (perhaps others have different views on this).

Said another way..if there is a doubt in your mind if you should call or not..there is no DOUBT.  Call.

Second...I would challenge you to split up your answer into short term and long term.

As in:  Will it inflame things in the next few days/weeks and a separate answer for months and years.

Best,

FF

[globalnomad]

Two things.  I would NEVER ever threaten to call police.  I would just do it.  (perhaps others have different views on this).

Said another way..if there is a doubt in your mind if you should call or not..there is no DOUBT.  Call.

Second...I would challenge you to split up your answer into short term and long term.

As in:  Will it inflame things in the next few days/weeks and a separate answer for months and years.

Best,

FF

This all makes a lot of sense thanks FF. I need to be focused on the years, not just keeping the peace for days or weeks. Fortunately things are moving in a better direction for a while now and the worst I've had to deal with is the verbal stuff.

[globalnomad]

Here’s another example, which also gets some of the bigger issues I’m struggling to deal with:

This morning a close friend who I haven’t spoken to in six months texted me. He asked if I had time for a quick catch-up call and also wanted advice about something. He said any time before 6pm would work. Naturally I said sure. It’s a rainy day and we had no plans at all. So I tell my wife I just need 20 mins to make a phone call - and asked her what time would be most convenient. And offered to mostly take the kids for the rest of the day. This was immediately taken as a sign that I don’t care about her, that I don’t respect her schedule (we didn’t have one for the day) and that all I care about is my friends (who in reality I barely spend any time with recently). She insisted I do the call in the evening or on another day. I said sorry, I understand you’re not happy about this but I’d like to make this call so just tell me what the best time to do it is. She refused to give me a time and the kids were playing happily by themselves so I told her I was going for a walk for 20 mins to make my call.

I then get bombed by text message:

“F#%^ you.”

“No normal person plans their weekend around a stupid catch up call with a friend. You are so desperate for friendship you will bend over backwards for anyone who will pity you enough to be your friend. Even if that person actually needs a favor from you. Pathetic. “

“Makes me feel pathetic just for being your partner. You are not even PLEASE READing beta in the social pecking order. “

“You should get your pathetic ass out of my life and go find yourself  a normal person person who’s happy to be a doormat to you. And don’t try pulling any PLEASE READ on me about the kids. You can go to Xxx by yourself or you sit your ass down and try to work out a reasonable coparenting schedule right here where me and the kids are staying. “

I don’t even know how to respond to stuff like this. After many years of it I’m also starting to doubt my own sanity.

Am I asking for something that unreasonable? Even the most mild and reasonable requests to spend time with friends or family trigger massive abandonment fears and rage like this every time - and I simply haven’t found a way to deal with it.

[once removed]

"you just need to deal with it because this is who i am."

that at least tells you what youre up against. theres little capacity for changing a person with that attitude.

I don’t even know how to respond to stuff like this.

there is no response that would be constructive. anything you would do would either invite more of it, or escalate it.

the point of talking about these sorts of things in a time of calm is to have discussions where you can sort of put things in the "unacceptable" basket when it comes to your relationship.

people with bpd will push our buttons and our boundaries, but they generally have a pretty good idea of what the ultimate line is, and they know not to cross it. they will tend to test it, and walk right up to it, and they also know that certain things are acceptable if we accept them. my ex would lose her  and say horrible things, but there were certain lines shed never cross. so you have those talks, and then you reinforce them.

short of that, and i dont mean to be a downer, theres not a great deal you can "do" apart from deciding that it is ultimately unacceptable, and leaving the relationship. what you are doing is, generally speaking, precisely what to "do". you dont escalate. you get out of the line of fire. you let her blow her steam, and get back to baseline. if you cant get her, as part of a team, in a time of calm, to agree that this is unacceptable and hurts the relationship (and even if she does that, which would be great, she will slip), and slowly nip it in the bud, then shes effectively right: this is who she is.

which essentially means its a matter of how to cope with it. stepping out/away when shes saying these things out loud is one strategy. when shes text bombing you like that, i would advise you not to read it. i, personally, had a terrible time not JADEing like crazy when my ex would say things to push my buttons, and i would have the same trouble with your wife. in other words, you cant necessarily change her behavior, short of leaving, but you dont have to stand for it, either, and you can minimize the damage it does to you.

thats my take. its admittedly a "i think you are doing about the best you can do" one. hoping others might have some more ideas.

[globalnomad]

Once removed - That’s enormously helpful thanks. No time for a proper response right now but in the meantime, can you suggest any good references on how to go about such a delicate conversation in a calm period? ie. so and so is unacceptable to me and damaging to our relationship. I’ve so far not found a way to do this successfully.

[formflier]

So...why on earth do you cede power to your wife to determine when you catch up with friends? 

Were you under the impression she would appreciate you doing that?  Had she appreciated that in the past? 

So...I'm going to agree with once removed that there is not much you can "do".  I will add that there is much you can NOT DO and that will be quite effective.

NOT REACTING is a wonderful thing. 

Think about once removed's example of testing lines.  They are usually looking for where the line is AND ALSO looking to get a reaction.

So if you don't react..their "need" for this doesn't get "fed".

Best,

FF

[once removed]

can you suggest any good references on how to go about such a delicate conversation in a calm period? ie. so and so is unacceptable to me and damaging to our relationship.

you wouldnt necessarily say that, or use that particular approach.

every relationship, should, from time to time, have a "relationship talk". where you talk about anything from reflecting on the relationship, to where it is now, to where your feelings are, to the sex, to things that you love about each other, or bug you about each other, whatever. every relationship goes about it a little bit differently, but its sort of like a team meeting to get a feel for each other. thats the time in which youd do it. you wouldnt put it, necessarily, in terms of "this is unacceptable to me". youd talk about it in terms of "the way we speak to each other". youd talk about speaking to each other with love. youd talk about the things that are unacceptable to you both, in your relationship. youd talk about it in terms of how your relationship is stronger than that. youd put specific things in the "not acceptable" bin.

alternatively: pick the most substantive thing she said (not easy in the last particular case), the most "valid" thing. an example in this case might be "working out a reasonable coparenting schedule". an alternative might be "i feel pathetic being your partner". ask her, in a time of calm, if she really feels that way. dont do anything but listen (and possibly ask questions). revisit it in a day or two. listen.

you may find that her answer changes. or you may find that shes pretty frank and says something like "i didnt really mean that, i just get so mad when _______ and ______". you can validate that. you can positively reinforce that vs "youre a pathetic beta". and you can say "youre right, i could do better at _______. can we work with each other on this?".

its a very generalized example, mind you, that again, depends on the context of your relationship and the language the two of you use with each other. i am largely piggybacking on an example another member gave, where, say, your partner called you a total scatter brain because you "never" take out the garbage. you ask, genuinely, if she really thinks youre a "total scatter brain". you think it over. you revisit it and you say something like "yeah, i do try with the garbage, but i can do better. can we work together on this?"

that kind of thing.

[once removed]

i also wanted to add, be careful and selective about what you revisit and how.

bringing hurtful things that were said back up can have all sorts of negative effects. people with bpd traits especially have a very difficult time revisiting it, especially if its done, by us, in a confrontational sort of way. it can be shaming.

[globalnomad]

Thanks again both. really appreciate the quick responses on what has been a tough day. I took the kids out for a few hours after the incident and we all had a great time. The moment I walked back in the door the raging started again about what a horrible husband I am for scheduling a call with a friend on a weekend. I’ve been informed I need to move out by the end of the month and I should speak to a divorce lawyer.

So far have managed well not to JADE and only give businesslike responses.

FF - good point. In the past I’ve been guilty of giving in to her tantrums at times about going out to meet friends and so on. So maybe there a problem with intermittent reinforcement. I feel good that today I didn’t back down and just went ahead with it. But because I’ve been inconsistent in the past can see why it’s triggering such a response.

Once removed - thanks for clarifying. That makes a lot of sense to me. In the past anything that made her feel shamed rapidly sent the conversation south in such moments, and I can see how there’s a more subtle way to do things. I’ll give it a try, provided I can get to a calmer place with her somehow.