uBPD mother homeschooling the kids -- want to compare notes

[Couper]

Is anybody else in this situation?  My uBPDw has a teaching degree and only worked in schools for about two years after graduating and then went on to other unrelated things.  Mostly secretarial jobs.  Hindsight being 20/20, back when we met it was all about how the schools were corrupt, nepotism, etc.  Not hard to believe.  These days I think she just couldn't cut it given the intense amount of cooperation it takes to work within a school structure and she washed out.  No need to go into the details of what led me to that conclusion.

At any rate, this is like another bait-and-switch.  Making plans before getting married and having children, homeschooling was a top priority of hers and I don't have an issue with that.  My part of it was that I still wanted to see it structured -- get up, breakfast, pick a consistent start time every day, maintaining a clean classroom and, just like with other topics, she agreed to all of that and none of those things happen.  Doesn't have to be a non-stop seven hour day.  Homeschoolers with direct instruction can get a lot done in a few hours vs. all the wasted time of marching a small army of 30 kids around everyday.  I'm also a believer in not letting your schooling get in the way of your education: i.e. experiences can be as important as your book work.  All that said, I'm not inflexible.

The problem comes from yet another circumstance like I just experienced.  She leaves to go run an errand, both kids are home.  My son is doing math at the table.  About 45 minutes later I go back in to check and he's about to melt (probably afraid he'll get in trouble) telling me, "I can't do my math because I can't concentrate".  I start trying to have a constructive discussion with him about what we need to do to establish a situation where he can concentrate, but it's not going well and two minutes later, she's back.  I carefully explain to her what I've walked in on and in 0-to-60 it turns into an assault on me and hyper-defense of herself and I calmly explain to her that this is what I just found two minutes ago, I had no idea what was supposed to be going on while she was gone, and all I'm doing is relaying the situation as I found it.  Don't shoot the messenger.  Then I went downstairs for what I went in to get and when I came back I could hear the whole thing unfolding.

She's telling him he needs to "find a way to concentrate on your own".  She's telling him that he need to "just get up in the morning and get his math over with".  Here's my rub with that -- I get up pretty early.  Sometimes he is up before me or usually shortly after.  Two hours later she gets up.  She wants him putting effort into his own schooling that she's not willing to put into it herself.  This has been a recurring theme.  No matter how delicately it is stated about goals, providing guidance, setting an example, providing structure similar to what will be expected of them when they move on to their careers someday, she's just not going to do it and the reasons why she won't are several. 

I'm convinced this is part of the reason she is so dead-set on not sending the kids to a conventional school -- because she cannot cooperate with the teaching staff in the role of a parent.  Another "it's all about her" -- its more about her insulating herself that it is providing well for her children.

My kids aren't stupid and she has taught them to read (amongst all the other common subjects) and in many ways they outshine kids of the same age that go to conventional school.  They test well and are part of a subscribed curriculum where a group meets every week at a rented facility during the "school year".  It's not some kind of fringe off-grid group of weirdos.  I know some people have that preconceived notion of homeschooling.  Where I feel they are getting shortchanged is the non-curriculum stuff like seeing how a responsible adult provides leadership and takes accountability, the importance of maintaining a schedule, being given constructive instruction on good work habits and learning how to accept constructive criticism, etc.  Where this invades their book work is like now where because there is no structure, he doesn't have healthy work habits when it comes time to do something he doesn't enjoy doing and nobody is there to keep him on track.  Essentially, it's like having a child trying to teach a child.

Part of this is just to vent.  Of course, I'm also interested in hearing from those who homeschool with someone who expects things from others that they wouldn't do for others.       

[EyesUp]

Our kids are not homeschooled, per se, but here are a few things you and I have in common:

- PD'd spouses with an edu background they are not using professionally
- Get up well after us, and the kids
- Assume the role of educator, but basically arrive late and leave early while school is in session
- Become angry/defensive when we step in to help kids while they are not present

My comments are based on my experience during the pandemic while I was working FT from home, and my wife was not working / supposedly helping the kids with their remote school work.

Guess who was rarely home, but often at the gym/coffee shop while the kids were "at school"... 

Sorry I don't have more to offer other than "sounds familiar" - If nothing else, you're not alone in working through these patterns.

[Couper]

- PD'd spouses with an edu background they are not using professionally

This part is particularly relevant, especially in light of all that took place last year with parents essentially being forced into a homeschool-type role with all of the remote learning stuff that was created.  It would also be helpful to hear from those of you in that position.  Didn't even occur to me.  Of all the ridiculousness last year, that is one thing that we were sort of oblivious to since we already had homeschool in place. 

All of your points are spot-on.  Very concise.  Something I got out of what I heard this morning was, "do the work in the morning... so in the afternoon we can go here there and yonder".  While they are often still kid-relevant things, and in some cases relevant to some of their book work, I think much of it is a selfish endeavor along the lines of play dates so she can have mommy time with other mommies, hitting the store while out and about, etc. 

[worriedStepmom]

My kids go to public school but did remote education this past year.  (Oy vey, I never want to have to do that again!)  We had a mix of asynchronous education (similar to many home schoolers) and synchronous (where they are on the school schedule and call into each class).

SD THRIVED under this schedule.  She posted the best grades of her life this year.

My biokids did not.  S12 needed lots of work with executive function - how to schedule his days, how to break up assignments into smaller pieces, how to set your own deadlines, how to make sure you did everything you were supposed to do. 

D15 could not manage to keep on top of her assignments - her anxiety wouldn't let her ask for help etc.  She's a former honor student and we weren't sure she'd pass two of her classes until we got the final report card.

I was working full-time from home (hahahahahahaha).  I wasn't always available for them.  I did spend a good hour every day just reviewing the executive function stuff and trying to teach them good habits.  Any parent *can* do that.  I wasn't their teacher, but I am capable of teaching this kind of organizational stuff  My H is ADHD - he wasn't so good at helping.   If your W doesn't already have those good habits, she isn't going to know how to do that.

It may just be that you have to separate the workload - she teaches or helps with the content and you are the go-to for organizational stuff.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Couper]

My kids go to public school but did remote education this past year.  (Oy vey, I never want to have to do that again!)  

It may just be that you have to separate the workload - she teaches or helps with the content and you are the go-to for organizational stuff.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.

It's not for everyone!  Of course, I can't speak to the remote learning aspect.  The only bit of that we touched on was when the building they leased wouldn't let them come back for a spell and they had to try things online.

I don't have any issue with taking certain aspects and devoting time to it... and were I not dealing with a disordered person I suspect she would not either.  

Along the lines of Eyesup's comment about "angry and defensive", it's not possible to contribute because my uBPDw is incapable of altruism.  Any deviation from what she does is taken as a direct assault on her.  I suppose she won't give up control of anything because that would be admitting that she is wrong or incapable.

Interestingly enough, I learned awhile back that this has affected their group that meets every week.  There are a few paid people in this system we use, so there is a bit of a leadership structure.  I don't know precisely what unfolded, but I think some constructive criticism was offered and rather than use it as a growth opportunity, she waged a passive-aggressive war on the woman.  It all came and went before I was made aware of it, but it explained why this person I have met on several occasions seemed to inexplicably fall out of favor for a while.  I should have known something had happened.  The person she waged war against probably couldn't even tell me what she did if I asked her.      

[ForeverDad]

I exited my divorce with Shared Parenting, equal time and equal rights.  One condition in my settlement on Trial Day was that I would be the Parent Responsible for School Purposes.  Predictably she virtually had a meltdown but my condition was that or we start the trial.

I had a few reasons for my single condition.  I did worry she would move around (she did) and I could be left moving around to follow my kid.  He was in first grade at the time.  But — why I tell this story here — I also had a concern she would try to home school, she had contemplated that when he was a toddler.  Why?  I was worried she, with an undiagnosed acting-out PD, could not home school well.  And I desperately didn't want to find out the hard way.

Fortunately he made it through all 12 years of school, at school.

Of course, there's a concern these days that kids risk being taught some extreme ideas in school, like 1619 slavery or critical race theory.  How life has changed in two decades!

[Forestrain123]

- PD'd spouses with an edu background they are not using professionally
- Get up well after us, and the kids
- Assume the role of educator, but basically arrive late and leave early while school is in session
- Become angry/defensive when we step in to help kids while they are not present

This is my MIL through and through! Every point. Very interesting.

[kells76]

Is anybody else in this situation?  My uBPDw has a teaching degree and only worked in schools for about two years after graduating and then went on to other unrelated things.  Mostly secretarial jobs.  Hindsight being 20/20, back when we met it was all about how the schools were corrupt, nepotism, etc.  Not hard to believe.  These days I think she just couldn't cut it given the intense amount of cooperation it takes to work within a school structure and she washed out.  No need to go into the details of what led me to that conclusion.

Yes.

DH's kids' mom has, I suspect, a chip on her shoulder about her intellect. AFAIK she did some community college but does not have a college degree. I don't really care, it's not about the degree, you can do a ton even without a HS diploma, but it's her attitude about it -- that she wants to co-opt the "prestige" of being a "degreed philosophical thinker" without doing the work. Both DH and ex's current husband went to the same very tiny liberal arts college, DH then did a year of grad school and now ex's H has a masters. She likes to talk about how "logical" she is and how she "basically did the same work" as the liberal arts college. She hasn't worked out of the house for a long time and currently (maybe?) does some kind of remote work for a family member... but it's unclear. Mostly she "works on" activism.

But... homeschooling.

If I remember everything, here's how it went:

2013: homeschool co-op
2014: pulled kids out of co-op because DH got a job there, all at home
2015: kids back in co-op when DH's contract not renewed, younger SD returned to repeat last year's grade
2016: older SD pulled out for public charter school (I suspect moms at the co-op were starting to see some, um, issues with kids' mom)
2017: younger SD pulled out of co-op midway through year to same public charter, "classroom 1"
2018: younger SD now in "classroom 2", older SD in charter
2019: you know how the end of this school year went...
2020: older SD about to do local public HS, then Mom pulled her out (in september, but didn't un-enroll her, so she was truant...) to "homeschool" which was basically indoctrination from her and stepdad
2021: younger SD probably still in charter, older SD? we have no idea what she's going to do this fall. she is pretty cagey about if it'll be local HS.

So the kids haven't really had any educational stability, ever.

homeschooling was a top priority of hers and I don't have an issue with that.  My part of it was that I still wanted to see it structured -- get up, breakfast, pick a consistent start time every day, maintaining a clean classroom and, just like with other topics, she agreed to all of that and none of those things happen.  Doesn't have to be a non-stop seven hour day.  Homeschoolers with direct instruction can get a lot done in a few hours vs. all the wasted time of marching a small army of 30 kids around everyday.  I'm also a believer in not letting your schooling get in the way of your education: i.e. experiences can be as important as your book work.  All that said, I'm not inflexible.

Right, I was homeschooled as a kid (100% thru 6th grade) and personally had a great time. Really depends on the kid's personality, parent's reasons, and structure, yes. My older sister reflects on that time as horrible and prison-like. So, even between kids it can vary. I do think she had it harder with our parents than I did.

The problem comes from yet another circumstance like I just experienced.  She leaves to go run an errand, both kids are home.  My son is doing math at the table.  About 45 minutes later I go back in to check and he's about to melt (probably afraid he'll get in trouble) telling me, "I can't do my math because I can't concentrate".  I start trying to have a constructive discussion with him about what we need to do to establish a situation where he can concentrate, but it's not going well and two minutes later, she's back.  I carefully explain to her what I've walked in on and in 0-to-60 it turns into an assault on me and hyper-defense of herself and I calmly explain to her that this is what I just found two minutes ago, I had no idea what was supposed to be going on while she was gone, and all I'm doing is relaying the situation as I found it.  Don't shoot the messenger.  Then I went downstairs for what I went in to get and when I came back I could hear the whole thing unfolding.

Yup, explanations tend to not go well, do they...

That sucks that she walked in when you were trying to get on the same page with son. Probably threw the whole feel you were starting to establish. SD13 also struggles with concentration, as does her mom (I strongly suspect), and they feed off each other. SD13 does way better with schoolwork when she is alone in a boring room, or working 1x1 with someone who has the executive function and "chill vibes" to keep her on track.

Kind of a double bind you were in -- keep helping son but probably have Mom try to shoehorn in to "help" also, or "explain" to Mom what was going on so she could pick up where you left off, but then son is left with less help. She really wants to paint you into a corner where she's the expert, she's the helper, she's the teacher, she's the authority, so don't you dare come in and help the kids... (but if you don't, the kids will struggle, and of course it's not Mom's fault if they struggle).

Gotta go to a meeting but hopefully back for more discussion soon.

[Couper]

Why?  I was worried she, with an undiagnosed acting-out PD, could not home school well.  And I desperately didn't want to find out the hard way.

Fortunately he made it through all 12 years of school, at school.

Of course, there's a concern these days that kids risk being taught some extreme ideas in school, like 1619 slavery or critical race theory.  How life has changed in two decades!

Smart thinking.  You saved yourself a potential nightmare with that.  School has not only changed a lot in the last 20 years -- it has changed a lot in the last two!  I'd like to see them get a mix of both.  I liked the idea that we could take the first several years and mold them so that when they did make their way to regular school they wouldn't be this mushy brained little child they could just feed anything to and they would lap it up.  While having a mix of homeschool and regular school was another thing discussed before the kids ever came along, that was another thing she agreed to without having any intention of ever following along.

Quite frankly, it's why we don't have more kids.  By the time the second one came along and I could see the patterns, I didn't have a clue what BPD was, but I knew something was wrong and I outright refused to have a third.

[Couper]

Right, I was homeschooled as a kid (100% thru 6th grade) and personally had a great time. Really depends on the kid's personality, parent's reasons, and structure, yes. My older sister reflects on that time as horrible and prison-like. So, even between kids it can vary. I do think she had it harder with our parents than I did.

My kids like it and they very much do not like the idea of being sent to a regular school.  I think it's more a matter of fearing what they don' t know than anything.  It would be like anything else -- once they got settled in they would have so many friends that they would want to go.  They are social, have lots of friends now, go to the library a couple of times a week, and I like that they are part of this group that meets, but I would also like them to experience structure because when they get out into the working world, structure is what it will demand.  I try to provide as much of that as I can, but I can only be spread so thin.

That sucks that she walked in when you were trying to get on the same page with son. Probably threw the whole feel you were starting to establish. SD13 also struggles with concentration, as does her mom (I strongly suspect), and they feed off each other. SD13 does way better with schoolwork when she is alone in a boring room, or working 1x1 with someone who has the executive function and "chill vibes" to keep her on track.

Kind of a double bind you were in -- keep helping son but probably have Mom try to shoehorn in to "help" also, or "explain" to Mom what was going on so she could pick up where you left off, but then son is left with less help. She really wants to paint you into a corner where she's the expert, she's the helper, she's the teacher, she's the authority, so don't you dare come in and help the kids... (but if you don't, the kids will struggle, and of course it's not Mom's fault if they struggle).

Gotta go to a meeting but hopefully back for more discussion soon.

In this particular instance she didn't so much push me aside, but I wanted to lay it all out and include her because she gave him the assignment and if she heard the discussion without context her first move would have been to jump to his defense because in her mind anything I offer isn't for my son's well being -- its purely to bring her down a notch.  It was her show.  It's not good to be given a assignment by someone and then someone else comes along and assumes it.  I should have known better because she gives assignments without providing nurturing guidance.  I should have stayed the course, but the outcome would have been me giving him direction she finds contrary.  There is no good answer.  Its  just like if she encounters a mom that has her act together -- clean classroom, structure, leadership -- she harbors resentment toward success I guess is what I'm trying to say.  That mom will not be "friend material".  Conversely, I've noticed within the homeschool environment, she tends to cultivate friendships with losers.  Sorry, but there are some.  She won't so much collaborate with the successful ones -- she surrounds herself with the ones that may be nice people, but aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.  I think we can figure why without me having to spell it all out.

My work requires a lot of providing instruction to people doing tasks and explaining complex things to laymen customers.  I only mention this because of the topic of the discussion, but I get compliments for how I go about it.  I may not be a trained school teacher, but I think I get how to teach.  It just looks more and more to me that it is less about a passion for educating the children and more about her shielding herself from being critiqued by others.  She can control a lot of things in her life without someone else issuing report cards and such where if the kids falter, the teachers want answers from the parents.

Please feel free to add more.  It's interesting to have your insight since you have lived it both as a student and parent.


    

[Notwendy]

From your wife's perspective, I think it's hard to have someone tell you how to "do your job" - that's hard on anyone even without a PD. I know I am less structured than my H wishes I would be ( I don't have BPD) but he's left the housework to me to do, and so long as it's my job, I am going to do it  the way I want to. The outcome is that - things are clean, things get done, I am probably more of a "messy" than he is, but the outcome is satisfactory. Likewise, the things he takes on, I might do differently but I am not the one doing them.

I don't think you have the time to micromanage your wife's homeschooling and at this point, it's up to her and so it may be hard for her to feel she's not doing the job well enough.  Yes, there is less structure than you would like, but it's not something you can control all the time. Still, looking at outcome- your kids are on target academically, and even ahead, so the academic outcome is OK regardless.

With a BPD mother though, I would be looking at emotional outcome. I don't know how old your son is or if he has difficulty concentrating on math for his age level. 45 minutes is about max for any child. If he has trouble concentrating, it's possible to break the math assignment into smaller sections. The constant failure to meet "concentration" expectations can make him anxious, and that can make it hard to concentrate.

I was not homeschooled but I did daydream a lot in school and there were times I didn't get homework done. Teachers would contact my parents, of course they didn't let on what things were like at home with BPD mom.  Still, I managed to do well in school and in college and can structure myself. BPD mom didn't get up with us in the morning- we got ourselves up and dressed once we were old enough. Dad did have to do extra parenting and he helped with homework but it was quality time with him. My own personal style is unstructured structure. I meet job and school expectations. Sometimes I think the lack of external structure at home led me to figure it out on my own.

Since your wife won't allow another option with the homeschooling, there's not much you can do unless it becomes apparent your kids are not keeping up. I think add to it what you can and monitor your kids' emotional well being might be the most you can do.

[By Still Water]

Hi Couper,

    Just a few thoughts, as a teacher - and friend to some who homeschool. Friends, who had joined a large co-op (met in our church), got their kids involved in plays, a debating club, art...From what I could see, these activities inherently came with schedules to keep - as well as social skills development. Co-ops, I believe, are vital to kids’ social development.
    Last year, I taught a 6th grade boy - very nice, smart - who could not speak up for himself...went totally blank when asked to stand in front of the class and talk about a simple activity. He had not been in a co-op where those skills were built. We see HS’d kids who return to school but do not turn work in on time, b/c their moms didn’t have deadlines.
    If you and your wife are in counseling, could the counselor point to resources that would help her build structure? Perhaps a counselor (or you) could find research studies to share with her - that might support the belief that routines and schedules actually help us to avoid stress and anxiety. Kids do like these and feel more secure with them.
    Is this an issue you’d want to bring before a counselor? Does your wife find her self esteem and validation in homeschooling? If she does, this might explain part of her defensiveness. What does she do really well that you could praise her for? Might part of her reasoning for solo HS-ing stem from its provision of her total control?
  
    

[Couper]

From your wife's perspective, I think it's hard to have someone tell you how to "do your job" - that's hard on anyone even without a PD. I know I am less structured than my H wishes I would be ( I don't have BPD) but he's left the housework to me to do, and so long as it's my job, I am going to do it  the way I want to. The outcome is that - things are clean, things get done, I am probably more of a "messy" than he is, but the outcome is satisfactory. Likewise, the things he takes on, I might do differently but I am not the one doing them.

My wife's sales pitch for wanting to homeschool, and part of me agreeing to it, was this supposed background she had working as a teacher before I met her.  The way she behaves towards the kids and executes all of this would never be acceptable in a school environment.  It's very likely why she's not still at it.


 

I don't think you have the time to micromanage your wife's homeschooling and at this point, it's up to her and so it may be hard for her to feel she's not doing the job well enough.  Yes, there is less structure than you would like, but it's not something you can control all the time. Still, looking at outcome- your kids are on target academically, and even ahead, so the academic outcome is OK regardless.

There is no micromanaging.  I don't even get 5% input on anything and, in the instances where I have tried (even those rare times she has asked for my suggestion), she will put more effort into doing the opposite than just giving my suggestion a shot.  As she has told me before: "whenever I am told to do something, I fell compelled to do the opposite".  My disappointment lies in the instances where she expects more of them than she does of herself and the fact that the basement / classroom constantly looks like a bomb went off.  Neither help with developing good learning and work habits.

With a BPD mother though, I would be looking at emotional outcome. I don't know how old your son is or if he has difficulty concentrating on math for his age level. 45 minutes is about max for any child. If he has trouble concentrating, it's possible to break the math assignment into smaller sections. The constant failure to meet "concentration" expectations can make him anxious, and that can make it hard to concentrate.

He's 11 and it's not getting bored after some period of time has passed.  It's right from the start of the assignment.  Assignment given, she takes off, come back and he's standing there crying holding his math book having finished nothing, then when she finds this she's yelling.  It can go down a variety of ways but, the point is, in dealing with instances like this she's in over her head.  Worse yet, my suggestions of outside help sends her into overdrive.  The weekly co-op we're in is supposed to help with things like this, but she will reject outright telling anyone she needs help regardless of the fact that it's to her own detriment. 

Since your wife won't allow another option with the homeschooling, there's not much you can do unless it becomes apparent your kids are not keeping up. I think add to it what you can and monitor your kids' emotional well being might be the most you can do.

It's hard for me to settle for less-than-mediocrity, which is why I made this post looking for suggestions.

[Couper]

   Just a few thoughts, as a teacher - and friend to some who homeschool. Friends, who had joined a large co-op (met in our church), got their kids involved in plays, a debating club, art...From what I could see, these activities inherently came with schedules to keep - as well as social skills development. Co-ops, I believe, are vital to kids’ social development.

We're in one and I'm very grateful for the various things it requires of them.  All of the parents are subscribed to the same program and use the same books.  Every week each kid of every age is required to get up and do a presentation. Every subject is covered (if not all in one sitting, on a rotating basis) including some that aren't so common these days, like Latin and how it appiles to modern language.  It's a good program and the aim is to have mothers that all have different strengths, like some are very good with higher level math and science.  As to schedules -- yes and no.  My kids still need her to drive them.  The car could be packed the night before, but that's simply not going to happen, so it's always late out the door, lots of yelling, so on and so forth.  All so avoidable, but that's her way.  She is absolutely incapable of being on time for anything even when it is easily achievable.  She seeks out ways to garner negative attention.

  

   If you and your wife are in counseling, could the counselor point to resources that would help her build structure? Perhaps a counselor (or you) could find research studies to share with her - that might support the belief that routines and schedules actually help us to avoid stress and anxiety. Kids do like these and feel more secure with them.  Is this an issue you’d want to bring before a counselor?

That is an excellent suggestion, but counseling is not going to happen.  It's something I outlined in my first post here if you care to hunt it down.  I certainly have no expectation that you do that.  For the reason you mentioned, it is why I came around to it really wanting it to happen (impartial outside influence)... and for that very reason, I believe it is why it will never happen.

  

Does your wife find her self esteem and validation in homeschooling? If she does, this might explain part of her defensiveness. What does she do really well that you could praise her for? Might part of her reasoning for solo HS-ing stem from its provision of her total control?

I don't think that's the case because she is hyper-defensive of even the smallest things in life.  I think her motivation is your last suggestion -- total control -- in the form of not having to compete with someone such as yourself that is a professional teacher.  Thank your lucky stars that you don't have her as a parent (though I'm sure you encounter plenty).  Praise goes nowhere and interaction just invites grief.  You could praise her for 100 things and one constructive suggestion will get you put in the dungeon.  Even praise will get dismissed as, "You're only saying that because...".  I've had my fill of having my character impugned.      

[Notwendy]

Hi Cooper, I wasn't assuming you'd settle. I based my response on what you said about the children meeting or exceeding test scores. This is how the state decides legally if the home schooling is adequate. If test scores were not adequate, you'd have some grounds for intervention.

The other measurement is emotional. If there was evidence of emotional problems, then you might have some ground to intervene with the home schooling.

Surely, I agree that this doesn't sound like the best situation for your children. However, in the absence of some objective measurement of school failure, I don't see a way for outside intervention. This leaves the intervention between the two of you, and I do know how difficult this is to work with. The problem then becomes an issue between the two of you- how to change the agreement between you and get the children into a different school situation, probably not home schooling as you have seen your attempts to get your wife to change not be successful.

I have dealt with this kind of thing in different situations and I know that asking my BPD mother to change or do something different also leads to her opposition. There is simply no way to control her behavior or choices on any account unless she were to do something illegal, and she doesn't do that.   The only intervention on the part of the kids that may give you grounds to intervene legally would be failure to meet academic requirements, or evidence of emotional abuse and it doesn't seem you have this.

[Notwendy]

One thought about your son would be to consider an evaluation for anxiety and perhaps an issue with concentration. The knee jerk conclusion would be attention issues, but there are many reasons he might not be able to concentrate, including attention issues. I think it's possible I would have been diagnosed with ADD if I was in school today- I  daydreamed  in class, sometimes didn't do homework, but I don't have ADD. My mother's BPD impacted everyone's emotions and her moods were unpredictable. We were afraid of them. Sometimes it was hard to do home work. However, had a teacher suggested ADD- my mother would have gone along with me being the one with a problem, not anything to do with her.

I think an 11 year old is capable of completing a math assignment on their own, if it's grade and age appropriate. The crying and not doing any of it makes me wonder if emotions are involved, or the expectations are too high. Fear of not doing it perfectly, of your wife being angry at him if it isn't according to how she wants it, if she is very critical of him, it could leave him feeling too anxious to try. 

We kids may have missed assignments but never dropped below grade level work. In fact, we did well. We were well cared for- had clothing, good nutrition, no teacher would have ever suspected things were difficult at home. School was actually a safe place and did provide the order and structure we did not get at home. Something to think about- you may not have a means to change the home school arrangement with your wife on the grounds of not meeting academic standards but looking at the reasons for your son's concentration difficulties might bring up an emotional reason or the need for the structure of school.

I don't have an issue with homeschooling. I have several friends who are homeschooling parents and their kids are doing fine- I don't think these parents have a disorder. However, your son's crying over his work is something to look into/

[ForeverDad]

When I was in school many moons ago, math and science were favorites.  I was the best student of two classes in geometry and got the school's medal in my freshman year.  I also did well with spelling.  As I look back decades later, I notice I did well with patterns.  However, that same year I struggled with English class, my mind always drew a blank when given composition assignments.  I can do that now but back then I dreaded having to dredge up ideas and stories.

As has already been suggested, ponder whether your son's problem is due to his aptitudes or whether he's getting stuck with the emotional load, or a little of both.

I do remember my spouse back then saying she wanted to home school and I didn't support it at all.  Fortunately, she had to go back to work once we separated and so she dropped that idea.

From kindergarten and into the third grade every teacher remarked my son was distracted and distracting to others.  Maybe they each read the prior teacher's notes?  Those were the early years during the divorce but it improved when he was about 9 years old.  Maybe it was that he reached a certain level of development but it also coincided with me reaching out for custody and more parenting time.  He never did try to excel as I had in my youth, but at least he made it to graduation as a reasonably normal kid.

[Couper]

My apologies for dropping out for a bit.  Things got busy.  Lots of good points to ponder and I appreciate the input.  It has churned up some new thoughts that I want to share when I have time to put the proper effort into it.  More soon. 

[kells76]

One thought about your son would be to consider an evaluation for anxiety and perhaps an issue with concentration. The knee jerk conclusion would be attention issues, but there are many reasons he might not be able to concentrate, including attention issues. I think it's possible I would have been diagnosed with ADD if I was in school today- I  daydreamed  in class, sometimes didn't do homework, but I don't have ADD. My mother's BPD impacted everyone's emotions and her moods were unpredictable. We were afraid of them. Sometimes it was hard to do home work. However, had a teacher suggested ADD- my mother would have gone along with me being the one with a problem, not anything to do with her.

Getting into a fine detail level, I'm on the same page with Notwendy. If, generally speaking, academic achievement isn't the reason why homeschooling is not good for your kids, then finding another route for intervention could help.

There's a lot of talk about "triangles" on this site and often the subtext is that "triangles" are negative and unhealthy. Certainly the Karpman drama triangle is that -- where one person is the "victim" (I didn't do anything wrong, it's not my fault), one is the "rescuer" (I'm the hero, I'm the capable one who can help), and one is the "persecutor" (I'm correct, I'm right, and I'm gonna tell you how it is).

That's one flavor of triangle. Triangles -- that is, in the most generic definition, adding a third person to a two-person interaction -- can also stabilize certain relationships. For example, in a healthy-enough marriage, adding a child can stabilize the relationship. Note, this is not a recommendation, just an example.

Conflict between you and your W over homeschooling is typically in a deadlock, if I'm reading you correctly. Not a lot of movement or change either way. And you see that your kids aren't being helped.

She isn't receptive to information that she is contributing to the issues -- at least, or perhaps especially, information coming from you.

She homeschools for different reasons, many of which have to do with her sense of self, and being an "expert" or "best". There isn't room in her sense of self for any feedback that there might be a more helpful way for the kids for her to do something. Because, she's making choices in her life based not on what the kids need, but on what she needs to prop up her very sense of being.

I wonder if a "least worst" way to get positive changes for your kids is to get professional eyes on them through some type of assessment, as Notwendy suggested. As awful as it sounds, it would be a way for your wife to "not be the problem". I.e., it's not like the assessment is of her teaching ability, so there's "no way" for her teaching ability to be the problem    even though we understand that she is contributing to the situation. The professional could be the addition of a third person to the dyad between you and wife, that would pivot the triangle from: wife=rescuer, son=victim, you=persecutor (or something like that), to more of a "winner triangle" where son has needs, you and wife are assertive, and professional is caring (https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle).

While it might make your son "the problem" in her eyes, he wouldn't be in your eyes, and a professional may be able to make recommendations that she'll actually hear, that she would never hear coming from you. You might see clearly that Son needs someone else to teach him math. She can't/won't hear it from you...

but... if she's really invested in "being an expert" / "looking like an amazing mom"...

and if an expert recommends that your son "get 1x1 tutoring for math" from "an expert" (or, at least, someone else), or that he goes part-time to a local middle school for math, or just something other than Mom being his only teacher...

if she's invested enough in her "I'm a great expert mom" narrative, then she may be receptive to "well, an expert said to try X, and I'm just the kind of person who already thought of that before the expert said so, so I'm doing it, and an expert agrees with me".

Or, if an assessment shows that he needs behavioral intervention to build better executive function skills, that might get him out of the house and into a counselor's office a couple of times a week, "for academics" but really to help him deal with the emotional pressure from Mom, which I remember you described here:

He's 11 and it's not getting bored after some period of time has passed.  It's right from the start of the assignment.  Assignment given, she takes off, come back and he's standing there crying holding his math book having finished nothing, then when she finds this she's yelling.

As sad as it would be that she would need to think of it that way ("oh, I'm doing this because it's what amazing moms do"), it'd get your son the help he needs.

That's how it went down for us. Mom got to pick the counselor for the kids, and we were pretty skeptical for a while, but after a couple of months it was crystal-clear to the C where the problematic dynamics were coming from. But, she was able to get buy-in from Mom because she totally had Mom's number -- the tacit narrative from the counselor to Mom was "amazing moms follow directions from counseling". So Mom got to feel like "a co-expert" which is part of her brittle sense of self (she always has to "have the information" and "be the one with knowledge" in order to occupy the on-top position), but really the kids benefitted because FINALLY someone got through to change her behavior. DH could have said the exact same stuff and because of her emotional baggage, it NEVER would have gotten through.

Again, it's sad that having the kids "be the problem" would be the way to get them help, but she'll never tolerate HER being the problem, and if she can get a narrative going that "expert moms follow the assessor's recommendations", then that might be what it takes.

Sorry you're going through this. BPD parents and "homeschooling" can be an awful combination. Again I say that as a former homeschooler.

[kells76]

So another piece of our story.

Kids had been seeing the counselor for a bit -- maybe 6mo to 1 year. SD15 (then 11 I think) was due to start 6th grade. If I'm remembering correctly, C basically told DH in a solo appointment that SD needed to be in public school in order to be away from Mom/Stepdad more (she's super enmeshed). This was hard because we loved the co-op, actually, but what it meant was that the kids were 100% with Mom for school 2 days/week and ~50% with Mom for school the other 3. Not ideal.

We're in a district that DH and I have some ideological problems with, but (a) Mom is education decision maker, and (b) even the ideology in the school district is milder than what she gets from Mom/Stepdad. SD did NOT want to switch from the co-op (doesn't like change) and DH and I wished there were a way for her to stay, but the price was that she would stay exposed to Mom. Public school at the time at least gave her different people to be around, and time away from Mom's. Of course the last year and a half changed all that, and the enmeshment/indoctrination increased. Ugh.

...

I think a lot of the problem-solving and bettering that you can do will look like either choosing "least worst" options (sadly perhaps not "most best" option), or like doing what you need to do for the kids in parallel to vs in concert with your W.

Example of "least worst" option: getting Son assessed for LD's, anxiety, etc. No, it's not ideal to try to find a "problem" with your kids in order to get them help, but if that's what gets him counseling, or time away from Mom, or whatever, and she won't obstruct, then yeah, "least worst" option.

Example of "in parallel" vs "in concert": you've already been in the same room with W when you're trying to help Son with math and she comes in. Not effective; nobody gets helped. I'm guessing there are times when it's just you and Son together -- you're probably doing this already, but taking those times to help him learn new skills/tools for managing himself and his time. Not "to make mom happier" (though perhaps it will help get her off his case) but because he needs to learn how to manage "assignment anxiety" somehow, and she's not doing it, so it's kind of up to you. I wouldn't try to work together with her to help Son, necessarily -- the conversation of "let's get on the same page so we can both teach Son the same skills" probably won't go far.  It might look like you sharing some goal-setting tools or emotional regulation skills with Son, having him try them with math HW, and then him telling you how it went. I wouldn't tell W "I'm having Son try Tool A and Skill B" because she'll feel "less than" and "not the expert" and will undermine that, even for her own child, in order to have a worthy sense of self from "being the expert".

Interested to hear more from you.

[ForeverDad]

A thought occurred to me.  Often we have new members remark that they're repeatedly told they're the problem, not the spouse with whatever acting-out PD behaviors.  They're so gaslighted over such a length of time that they're excusing themselves "maybe I really am the problem."

That's when someone posts, "You're not the problem and it's not an internal issue for you.  (Maybe you're a bit too flummoxed...)  You're not disordered, your distress is situational.  Get some emotional distance and over time you'll regain your natural self."

So, do you think that your son's stress block could be situational too?  As in, it's not him, it's the circumstances he's in.  Have you tried shifting his homework elsewhere, away from his mother?  Does he have a neighborhood friend's house where he could sometimes do his homework?  Or could he sit with you away from mother (and that memory of that study table?) to see whether occasional but gentle reminders such as "how's it going, buddy?" help over time?

[Couper]

There are a whole lot of good points here.  I'm going to try and address all of them.  It's too much to try and quote everything and everyone individually, so don't feel like I'm snubbing you.  I've got a list of the talking points in front of me.  The timing of all of this is very good and some thing have evolved concurrent to the conversation that was going on here.

I would be all for intervention.  How to pull that off is very tricky since he is not in a regular school environment.  It would mean me having to hunt somebody down for an evaluation and take him, very likely against her will.  Based on past discussions I cannot imagine any circumstance where she would agree to that and I may very well be trading one set of problems for another.  More on that in a bit.  She used to clobber me over the head with the whole, "If we don't do marriage counseling we're headed for divorce -- it's all I ever wanted and you won't do it" thing and as soon as I agreed to it she panicked and killed that deal.  Once I came around, I was actually all for it because I realized that I need an impartial third-party.  I now know an impartial third-party is her kryptonite. 

All states are different and academically, here, the schools have very little oversight with what goes on in homeschooling.  Because she has a teacher's license, they have even less.  Regular mom's have more stringent reporting requirements.  Her "license" gets her off the hook for quite a bit.  Another point is age.  When they are very young the reporting requirements are virtually nothing.  As they are get older, I think the schools get a bit more involved.  This week, we got one of these annual letters from the local school district basically saying, "What are you doing this year?".  Generally speaking, the teacher's unions have a real dislike for homeschooling.  In the past, the person at the school responsible for sending the letters fell on the side of those that overstep their authority and went on a fishing expedition requesting things to which they were not legally entitled.  That's going a bit off-course.  I just add that for context.  The letter arrived and that gave me an opportunity to quiz my wife about how things are changing now that the kids are older and steer the conversation in different directions.

She still isn't under the rule of any meaningful oversight.  I asked what's going to happen when he moves into levels of math she cannot teach and she conceded it may take some outside tutoring or perhaps even some courses at the school to supplement the homeschooling plan we use now.  That brought me some relief but we're not to that stage yet.  If there is a mother in the co-op that is capable, that might be an option, too , and maybe I can wiggle my way into that and share these concerns of anxiety with a third party without her knowing.

To paint a clearer picture, I wouldn't put her in the "amazing mom" category as far as how she wants the world to view her.  She's not a "tiger mom" but she wants credit for what she's doing.  Hard to explain, as are most counterintuitive behaviors with this condition.  She has incredibly low self-esteem and strives to be seen as a victim.  Always late, always making people wait on her, the "school room" is always a mess.  Stuff like that. 

Fortunately, I do not think he falls anywhere close to ADD.  The observation she may be having an effect on him in the same way her behavior has an effect on me -- most definitely.  That's a real eye opener.  With respect to not being able to get intervention unless it's academic... a few years ago when she was at her worst, I came in the house in the middle of some whopper nuclear meltdowns she was having and taking it out on them (and I think I was even able to record one).  To the point I would call it emotionally abusive and had to intervene and say "enough".  That might have been worth something then, but now it's been too long and that would open the door to God knows what with respect to having the outside world involved.  I still wasn't totally clear on what I was dealing with back then. 

When he's in anxiety mode like the other day, I try to do the opposite of her and talk through it with him (rather than her "why can't you do this one thing for me?" approach -- it's always about her) and I made a mistake by handing him back to her.  I should have stayed put to help him gain some distance and when the opportunity arises again, I will.  As to him getting out of the house, unfortunately this is a bit of a rural setting so there's no escaping to a friend's house without driving some distance, coordinating with the other parent, etc.  I can carve out a place for him where I work, though.  That's an excellent idea.  Sometimes it's uncomfortable or noisy, but I'd be curious to see if some minor environmental distractions are less of a problem than the ones in the house. 

I hope that I touched on all of the most recent points from all three of you.  It has my wheels turning and I can't express how grateful I am for the new ideas and the time you have taken to help.  They still do small assignments through the summer, but the new school year will start soon and I'm curious to see where it goes.



 

 

[kells76]

I now know an impartial third-party is her kryptonite. 

Yes, for DH's ex as well. Relatable.

I asked what's going to happen when he moves into levels of math she cannot teach and she conceded it may take some outside tutoring or perhaps even some courses at the school to supplement the homeschooling plan we use now.  That brought me some relief but we're not to that stage yet.  If there is a mother in the co-op that is capable, that might be an option, too , and maybe I can wiggle my way into that and share these concerns of anxiety with a third party without her knowing.

Excellent. How many years down the road would you say that'd be? One, two, ?

she wants credit for what she's doing.  Hard to explain, as are most counterintuitive behaviors with this condition.  She has incredibly low self-esteem and strives to be seen as a victim.

Yes. DH's ex has some of those traits as well, but perhaps her desire to be seen as the expert tips her victimhood towards martyrdom? "I knew what was best for the kids and sacrificed myself for them, I bend over backwards and am just soo exhausted doing things for them". She talks a LOT about what she will do in the future for the kids, or "definitely has planned" for them, but it often doesn't happen.

For example, SD15 was "homeschooled" last year. Mom talked about "oh, I have this amazing schoolteacher friend who will teach SD15 math this year, I have it covered". I had tutored SD15 in math the year before. September starts rolling along and SD15 has not started math. I end up not asking any permission, just emailing worksheets to SD15 and saying "work on these until math gets sorted out". Literally that same day Mom emails me and is like "hey do you want to handle math for SD15".

So yeah, she also wants credit for managing everything for the kids, but doesn't follow through, and acts put upon if we try to coordinate. It actually goes better when I do a "strongman" act and just do what I think the kids need and inform her later.

I should have stayed put to help him gain some distance and when the opportunity arises again, I will.

Good to be able to reflect on that. When we know better, we do better. It's hard when we get caught off guard like when she came in the room suddenly.

I can carve out a place for him where I work, though.  That's an excellent idea.  Sometimes it's uncomfortable or noisy, but I'd be curious to see if some minor environmental distractions are less of a problem than the ones in the house. 

110% the way to go. I am suspecting that that's how problem solving is going to go for you -- you find some way to help the kids that is completely under your control, and do it. Coordination just isn't working and can escalate things. Really good idea.

the new school year will start soon and I'm curious to see where it goes.

You and me both! We still have no idea if SD15 is enrolled in school! Exciting times 

[Couper]

Excellent. How many years down the road would you say that'd be? One, two, ?

When does Algebra I and Geometry start to hit?  9th grade?  Maybe more like three years.  She's going to start getting in too deep soon and I can still help with those.  If he moves on to Calculus and Trig, I'm out myself.  She's going to get whacked when the science gets too deep, too. 

Yes. DH's ex has some of those traits as well, but perhaps her desire to be seen as the expert tips her victimhood towards martyrdom? "I knew what was best for the kids and sacrificed myself for them, I bend over backwards and am just soo exhausted doing things for them". She talks a LOT about what she will do in the future for the kids, or "definitely has planned" for them, but it often doesn't happen.

Yep, that's the stuff.  So hard-done-by, "look at me", etc. 

For example, SD15 was "homeschooled" last year. Mom talked about "oh, I have this amazing schoolteacher friend who will teach SD15 math this year, I have it covered". I had tutored SD15 in math the year before. September starts rolling along and SD15 has not started math. I end up not asking any permission, just emailing worksheets to SD15 and saying "work on these until math gets sorted out". Literally that same day Mom emails me and is like "hey do you want to handle math for SD15".

So yeah, she also wants credit for managing everything for the kids, but doesn't follow through, and acts put upon if we try to coordinate. It actually goes better when I do a "strongman" act and just do what I think the kids need and inform her later.

She has no clue how fortunate she is having you on the opposite end of all of this and you are a saint for taking it on.  I will definitely be stealing some pages from your book whenever I can.

110% the way to go. I am suspecting that that's how problem solving is going to go for you -- you find some way to help the kids that is completely under your control, and do it. Coordination just isn't working and can escalate things. Really good idea.

It's the motivation I need to finish building my proper office.  Another project that's hard to finish -- sort of like trying to remodel a bathroom that you have to use everyday.  Then he can have a proper place to escape.

You and me both! We still have no idea if SD15 is enrolled in school! Exciting times 

Cripes.  Does it ever end?  Went through a whole new round of conflict today because my daughter needs dental work that should be shopped around, but she knows all of the answers without doing the shopping.  Then I say screw it, I'll call around, but the tradeoff is now I'm wasting my working time doing what she could be doing instead of playing relationship arsonist on Facebook.  Finally gave up.  Six of one / half-dozen of the other.  Another penalty for all of this is life will just be expensive no matter what.  If money can buy me less stress, I guess it just falls into the category something's not really a problem if it can be fixed with $100 dollar bills.  Sorry for veering off topic.  I do a pretty decent job of putting out other potential fires but this one today was a losing proposition.  Every day is opposite day.

[Couper]

I have a question for the teachers here.  I have been trying to help my boy with his math more where I can.  This morning was a wreck which you can read about elsewhere if you care to hunt through my recent posts.  It's not really relevant to what I want to ask here.

This morning I'm trying to help him with his math at the kitchen table.  Division is messing him up now that the numbers have gotten longer and I was showing him what should be some quick mental tricks to plow through a problem.  I wound up asking him, "What's 28 + 8?  Just count it out going up 8 from 28 and tell me out loud".

He starts: "29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 43, 44"

I just bit my tongue and said, "Okay, so what is 28 + 8?" and he said "44" and I said, "that's interesting."

I gently corrected him and showed him what happened and we tried to go a little further but then he started to melt and I told him let's take a break and regroup.  Not a problem, just go play for a bit and get dressed (he was still in his jammies).  The break didn't help.  He melted further and when I realized it I reassured him there isn't a problem, it's all cool, just take a breath, but apparently he went upstairs, buried himself in his sheets, and by the time I found him and tried to get him neated up, his mother got up and came in.  I'm going too far off track.

The number thing -- I know it's only one example, but is that possibly a sign of dyslexia?  

[ForeverDad]

I don't have an answer for you, for all I know it could be all about the stress in the moment.  Try another method using "28+8=?" and let us know how it turns out

"Let's split apart 28 for a moment into two numbers, 20 and 8 so the equation is 20+8+8.  Do you know what 8+8 is?  Right, 16.  So can you visualize what 20+16 is?  Right, it's 36."

[kells76]

DH's youngest is 13 and also has similar challenges.

Consider getting a large number line, both large in range (maybe -30 to +30 or even -50 to +50) and large in font, maybe dry erase or laminated or something, for your son to keep at his desk. Plus some dry erase markers. Have every # labeled, not just by 5's or by 10's. You might have to make this yourself. If it is really big/long, too long for the desk, that's OK as long as you have floor space where he can unroll it and it lays flat.

He may do better with tangible supports like that for counting out the problem. I don't see it as "cheating", rather, it's reinforcing the rote stuff so that down the road, after he has done "28+8" with the number line a lot, he has "memorized" that transition from 34 to 35 based on saying it out loud at the same time as physically drawing the steps.

Also consider giving him a bit more time to self-process and self-correct with the "...33, 34, 43, 44..." stuff, after some gentle yet specific pointers. I am wondering if a slightly more targeted "heads up" plus more time for him to "find it" could help. I.e., I'm wondering if after he counted it out, heard you say "Okay, so what is 28+8", he repeated "44", and heard "that's interesting", that he knew something was off but was totally lost about what it could be. That sense of "#@$%!%, something is wrong, and Dad knows, but I have absolutely no idea what it is..." could be panic inducing. Especially given how his mom is, emotionally. He might be wired to be super sensitive to "something is wrong and my parent knows but I don't, so what that means is that #$@# is going down". His way of escaping that adult emotional overload could be to melt down and run away. And that wiring extends to wherever that feeling shows up, including math.

Consider trying something like "Oh my gosh... something is funky about that... I bet you can find it... I noticed it in the 30 zone..." (not sure of the exact phrasing, but it would be something that is natural for you both in content AND in tone, and that also zeroes in on the issue, so he's not left totally lost). If it were me, that would be where I'd pull out the number line and say something like "I bet you'll find it when you count it out on the number line". This confidence that he CAN figure it out, and you're not directly solving it for him, but you're giving him the tools to solve it for himself. He may be at a point where he doesn't even really know what tool to use to solve it, and that could be the core of the issue. He can figure it out, but he blanks on what tool to use. That could be your "intervention point" -- you're an adult, so you do know what tool to use, and you can pick it for him and then let him use it.

I know that all of that approach might seem overly... accommodating? In any other situation it might be. I think for your son, the "trigger" to go from functioning at math to meltdown is pretty sensitive. So the more experiences he can have where you are low-key, warm, and also gently pointing him towards the issue, and giving him a specific tool, versus letting him "sink or swim" on his own, the better, because it'll recalibrate his "trigger" to handle more down the road. If that makes sense.

Will be interested to know how things go for you guys. So glad you can help him with math. It can be a rough start but things absolutely can turn around. It's taken SD13 a few years but her attitude about math, and especially her distress tolerance and work length tolerance are an absolute 180 turnaround from the past. Hang in there. It pays off.

P.S. I will add that SD13 still struggles with being 1 number off with addition and subtraction in her head -- she still counts the starting number as 1 step, instead of the move from starting number to next number as 1 step. I.e., for "15-6", when she counts in her head, she counts "15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10" and because she's done 6 numbers on her fingers, she thinks 15-6 is 10. That's where the number line helps because we go back to "you don't count where you start, you only count the steps you take".

She is doing a lot better with having ideas about number relationships, but it still is tricky whether it's a +/- relationship or mult/div relationship. I.e., sometimes she sees "5x5" and blurts out "10", so that's where we have the discussion of "interesting, you remembered a relationship between 5 and 5. Check it out again, what operation are we doing? try it again with multiplication". Then you have this moment that hopefully sticks with them, of the meta connections -- two numbers are related one way by one operation, and the exact same numbers are related a different way by a different operation. Turning those "oops" moments into teachable moments might be interesting for your son and enlightening for you in terms of how his brain works and the connections he's making.

Might be interesting, when he's at baseline, to have a "fun" "extra credit" conversation about swapped digits. I think there's something to that move from 34 to 43 that indicates he attaches some relationship to those numbers. If he's at all into puzzles or games, maybe have a low key day about "what can we say about 2-digit swapped order pairs", like, "is there some pattern to the relationship between 12/21, 23/32, 34/43, 45/54..." see if he can figure out that for 2-digit #'s with consecutive-order digits, swapping the order always gives a subtraction difference of 9.

Of course, not everyone enjoys math games the way I do...

[ForeverDad]

If he's at all into puzzles or games, maybe have a low key day about "what can we say about 2-digit swapped order pairs", like, "is there some pattern to the relationship between 12/21, 23/32, 34/43, 45/54..." see if he can figure out that for 2-digit #'s with consecutive-order digits, swapping the order always gives a subtraction difference of 9.

That strategy was one used by accountants to identify errors long before calculators and computers existed:

Identifying Transposition Errors - the Rule of Nines
Interestingly, transposition errors may be revealed by a rather peculiar mathematical phenomenon. Pointedly: the difference between the incorrectly-recorded amount and the correct amount will always be evenly divisible by 9. For example, if a bookkeeper errantly writes 72 instead of 27, this would result in an error of 45, which may be evenly divided by 9, to give us 5. Likewise, if a bookkeeper mistakenly records 63 instead of 36, the difference between those two figures (27) may be evenly divided by 9 to give us 3. Bank tellers can use this rule to detect errors.

Just wait until he starts computer programming.  We humans start counting with 1, 2, 3... but computers start counting with 0, 1, 2, 3...

[Couper]

Thanks for the tips and tricks.  He might actually have one of those number lines.  I'll have to ask.  The number game thing might play well with him, too.  He likes games and early on he has always been good at recognizing patterns.

The whole thing was being kept pretty light but in retrospect I think he was starting to melt well before that instance as he was struggling through the problem a few different ways.  I can tell when he's going south because he's a jokester and is good at laughing at himself, but when a playful dialogue doesn't work, it means something is cooking.  I'm starting to think that in the back of his mind his wheels are turning that the clock is ticking, his work isn't finished, and mom is going to roll out of bed and be upset that she can't go berry picking.

She would have just lit into him about how he should know this, he's embarrassing her in front of dad, all her usual non-constructive stuff.  I wish she'd just vaporize.  Now she's quietly panicking after my conversation with her mother yesterday and going into overdrive to do damage control.  I'm sure my venting to her mother broke down some invisible wall because she never thought I'd tell her mother the truth of anything and that she had a one-way check valve where she controlled all the narrative.  Now that the MIL has gone back home this morning and she doesn't have to fake it in front of her mother anymore, I don't know what's in store.  Oh well.  At least her mother coming got the basement/classroom cleaned up after months of looking like a war zone.  Amazing how she doesn't do anything that needs to be done for the people that need it.

   

[Couper]

An update to this:

I'm home alone with my kids all day (which is heaven!).  We're having a great time.  It also gives me some space to investigate a little here and there.

I've detailed in a recent thread that as of the last several weeks, uBPDw has been seeing a "prayer minister" that she calls a "counselor"... who in turn clearly states on her website that she is not a counselor.  In my recent posts, that's detailed in the "Serenity Now" thread.  Here lately she has not been losing it.  The daily crazy is gone with respect to this math stuff.  Today it occurred to me that it's not that easy.  For as much as I believe in prayer, I also believe that it takes prayer + work to make real change, not simply asking for a magic wand to be waved.

That said, I asked S10 how his math has been going lately and he tells me "good".  I noted that I haven't seen any of the upset regarding his math work here lately and asked him why that is: "Because mom hasn't been giving me any math work to do".

So, just like I suspected -- the problem isn't fixed.  It's just swept under the rug at his expense.  I guess not detailed in this thread, when I was present for the last meltdown I was in the kitchen with my mother-in-law and expressed my concerns to her hoping that maybe she would steer her daughter in the right direction.  In a sense that sort of backfired because all she did was take what I told her in confidence and repeated it to uBPDw and took her side (despite witnessing all the disorder in my home and then actually justifying her episodes of rage by blaming me for causing them).  I made the comment something to the effect, "Do I have to get a court order to get my son help with his math?" and that was surely repeated, also.

Now putting the pieces together, that is when she stopped his math.  Once again, an impartial 3rd party is kryptonite to her.

I guess I will find out soon because I already have an appointment with a lawyer scheduled for next week and just added this to the list of topics.

In raising this issue (which is one of several to discuss), should I present to the lawyer that I think she has a personality disorder, or simply feed him facts and let him draw his own conclusions?

{Edit to add} Also, before meeting with the lawyer, should I question uBPDw about the math situation and how it has changed?  I know that is a potential powder keg and my wheels are turning on how to phrase it.  Or is it just pointless to do so given her propensity to lie about everything, anyway?