It's hard...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Perhaps it’s just a sign of the dam starting to crack. You’ve been holding back so many feelings for years to maintain a more peaceful equilibrium and now you are beginning to be more authentic with her.

Thank you Cat. This truly helps me forgive myself. Understanding that it's not that I'm engaging in negativity but that I'm just getting in touch with my authentic self. Which is the only way forward.

Today she sent me this -

"Let's have some therapy sessions. Either with xyz or someone else. I am open to that.

Let me to prove you how much I love and care for you.

I really do. I know I was too busy and stressed to realize my mistakes.

Now boys are more independent I do not feel the pressure that I felt before."


I'm open to the forum's guidance. This is the first time she's offered therapy

[truthdevotee]

Perhaps it’s just a sign of the dam starting to crack. You’ve been holding back so many feelings for years to maintain a more peaceful equilibrium and now you are beginning to be more authentic with her.

Thank you Cat. This truly helps me forgive myself. Understanding that it's not that I'm engaging in negativity but that I'm just getting in touch with my authentic self. Which is the only way forward.

Today she sent me this -

"Let's have some therapy sessions. Either with xyz or someone else. I am open to that.

Let me to prove you how much I love and care for you.

I really do. I know I was too busy and stressed to realize my mistakes.

Now boys are more independent I do not feel the pressure that I felt before."


I'm open to the forum's guidance. This is the first time she's offered therapy

[truthdevotee]

Thank you Cat. This truly helps me forgive myself. Understanding that it's not that I'm engaging in negativity but that I'm just getting in touch with my authentic self. Which is the only way forward.

Today she sent me this -

"Let's have some therapy sessions. Either with xyz or someone else. I am open to that.

Let me to prove you how much I love and care for you.

I really do. I know I was too busy and stressed to realize my mistakes.

Now boys are more independent I do not feel the pressure that I felt before."


I'm open to the forum's guidance. This is the first time she's offered therapy

I took her to joint therapy last year when I nearly left.

She maintained throughout and after that she never needed it, that it was solely for me, that I was the one with the problem.

[truthdevotee]

I'll reflect today on the next right action.

It might be best to rent my own place to work from home in my new job, and maintain a safe place for me to go also if and when needed.

Since she's opening to therapy, I could agree to that, and that we continue looking after the boys in their current home together.

My own rented space would serve for work purposes and to watch how things go, including if it's right for us to continue as a couple e.g. to watch and see if my romantic and sexual feelings can genuinely be there in the future, for her.

It might be anyway that in the process of HER healing, she discovers the things she wants for herself deep down and may feel more supported in case the final direction is to properly separate.

This means I would need to avoid friendships and sexual relationships with women for now.

[Notwendy]

This means I would need to avoid friendships and sexual relationships with women for now.


From everything I have read and heard in 12 step groups, it would be wise to avoid this regardless. I have heard it said that if someone leaves a dysfunctional relationship and doesn't do their own work on their part of it, they risk repeating the same patterns in a new one.

Change takes time, and this means both of you. If she's serious about working with a therapist- progress would take some time. Just saying she wants to do it doesn't mean the job is done. If you stay or leave the relationship, you would still need some time to work on your part of the issues.

I haven't personally walked the path of separation and then dating again, but from all I have heard and read, it's best to wait and do the personal work on your part no matter what you decide about the flat.

[khibomsis]

Dear TD, you are getting there step by step  Finding your own space is important because it provides a space for you and your boys to reflect and heal.
Couple counseling with pwBPD never goes well on these boards. Because for it to work they have to take responsibility for their actions and their healing. Nevertheless I feel you should agree to it. Place the responsibility on her to make the arrangements-you will be surprised how often it never happens that way. But you are stuck with her until your  boys turn 18 in some kind of relationship, and even if the sessions are about co-parenting peacefully, you will want to know that you have given it your all.  Although our sessions were disastrous, I shall always be glad that me and my pwBPD tried. It made the aftermath a.lot easier. .Negotiate boundaries carefully- counseling shouldn't mean you can't call your family,get massages, etc.  
If she really wants to heal she should go.into individual therapy. It is the single factor which best predicts a successful outcome on these boards. Unfortunately it's not going to work  if she does it to stay with you. She has to want to do it for herself.
Not wendy is absolutely right. I am not dating myself going on 8 months because I dont see the point. If I dont sort my own issues I will just end up in the same relationship with somebody else.
 

[truthdevotee]

This means I would need to avoid friendships and sexual relationships with women for now.


From everything I have read and heard in 12 step groups, it would be wise to avoid this regardless. I have heard it said that if someone leaves a dysfunctional relationship and doesn't do their own work on their part of it, they risk repeating the same patterns in a new one.

Change takes time, and this means both of you. If she's serious about working with a therapist- progress would take some time. Just saying she wants to do it doesn't mean the job is done. If you stay or leave the relationship, you would still need some time to work on your part of the issues.

I haven't personally walked the path of separation and then dating again, but from all I have heard and read, it's best to wait and do the personal work on your part no matter what you decide about the flat.

Thanks very much for these wise words. This rings very true. I'm only on the surface of discovering and having trust in my authentic self. It will take a lifetime to mature, so I will walk very slowly. Thank you...

[truthdevotee]

Dear TD, you are getting there step by step  Finding your own space is important because it provides a space for you and your boys to reflect and heal.
Couple counseling with pwBPD never goes well on these boards. Because for it to work they have to take responsibility for their actions and their healing. Nevertheless I feel you should agree to it. Place the responsibility on her to make the arrangements-you will be surprised how often it never happens that way. But you are stuck with her until your  boys turn 18 in some kind of relationship, and even if the sessions are about co-parenting peacefully, you will want to know that you have given it your all.  Although our sessions were disastrous, I shall always be glad that me and my pwBPD tried. It made the aftermath a.lot easier. .Negotiate boundaries carefully- counseling shouldn't mean you can't call your family,get massages, etc.  
If she really wants to heal she should go.into individual therapy. It is the single factor which best predicts a successful outcome on these boards. Unfortunately it's not going to work  if she does it to stay with you. She has to want to do it for herself.
Not wendy is absolutely right. I am not dating myself goingon8 months because I dont see the point. If I dont sort my own issues I will just end up in the same relationship with somebody else.
 

Thank you so so much. I couldn't do this without all of you. It is very hard to come by this hard won wisdom and experience in these boards. This guidance is just incredible. Thanks

[truthdevotee]

Dear TD, you are getting there step by step  Finding your own space is important because it provides a space for you and your boys to reflect and heal.
Couple counseling with pwBPD never goes well on these boards. Because for it to work they have to take responsibility for their actions and their healing. Nevertheless I feel you should agree to it. Place the responsibility on her to make the arrangements-you will be surprised how often it never happens that way. But you are stuck with her until your  boys turn 18 in some kind of relationship, and even if the sessions are about co-parenting peacefully, you will want to know that you have given it your all.  Although our sessions were disastrous, I shall always be glad that me and my pwBPD tried. It made the aftermath a.lot easier. .Negotiate boundaries carefully- counseling shouldn't mean you can't call your family,get massages, etc. 
If she really wants to heal she should go.into individual therapy. It is the single factor which best predicts a successful outcome on these boards. Unfortunately it's not going to work  if she does it to stay with you. She has to want to do it for herself.
Not wendy is absolutely right. I am not dating myself going on 8 months because I dont see the point. If I dont sort my own issues I will just end up in the same relationship with somebody else.
 

I wrote this to her -

I wouldn't like you to feel you have to prove anything.

My desire is only that each person grows to fulfil his or her potential. That's a really personal process.

Working to prove something I feel would only lead to more exhaustion and quite likely resentment.

I'm open to it if you would organise it.

I don't know if I'd stick through the process as I already have therapeutic support. But I would definitely begin the process.

Ideally you'd go to an individual therapist who can help you in a space where you don't have to be considering what you say in front of me.

[GaGrl]

Sometimes, couples enter what is called a "therapeutic separation." If this is what you want to do, you go ahead and get your own apartment and set up childcare as if you were going to live separately. During that time, you and your partner go to  counseling with the goal of making a decision on what is best for your future.

This may be the best way to determine if she is serious about changing, capable of changing, and can sustain improved behaviors with you and with the boys. Give it long enough to see her resolve.

[truthdevotee]

Sometimes, couples enter what is called a "therapeutic separation." If this is what you want to do, you go ahead and get your own apartment and set up childcare as if you were going to live separately. During that time, you and your partner go to  counseling with the goal of making a decision on what is best for your future.

This may be the best way to determine if she is serious about changing, capable of changing, and can sustain improved behaviors with you and with the boys. Give it long enough to see her resolve.

Thanks for the insights GaGrl. I hadn't heard of therapeutic separation. This sounds like it could be what we need.

I'm only just learning to be aware of what I feel, need and want. Taking my time seems really important.

[truthdevotee]

She made effort to celebrate my birthday. Bought me trousers, wrote a letter asking for forgiveness, cake with candles on it. It was nice and I thanked her and showed appreciation. She even cooked which is very uncommon. She made an effort.

Thing is, I started to feel strange as the evening went on. I felt the BPD energy.

She left the house for a while for space. I think she was just tired. That was fine.

Whilst she was out, we texted back and forth. I expressed that I still feel it best to get my own space and over the next year we can go to therapy together and individually.

When she came back, there were efforts to continue to communicate. I'm so burned out from our drama over the years that I have very little tolerance for it. Unwillingness to get into circular back and forths. As soon as that pattern started, I remembered it is my job to be present for myself and check out if that's best to protect my nervous system. So I did.

After taking the boys to bed, she asked to talk. Deep down I didn't want to, but I said to myself I'll make the effort for 5 minutes and check out if it continues in the old pattern.

Lo and behold, she started trying to persuade me to go to the mountains next weekend. After our recent 2 week holiday which was very exhausting, I had already said that I don't have the energy for it, even though its just for 4 days. So I was unpleasantly surprised that she was asking me again. I reiterated that I can't do it. A moment later our son woke up and we went to his room to make him sleepy again. At that point inside myself I decided not to talk further that night.

When he fell asleep, she left the room and a few minutes later asked me to come back to talk for 10 minutes. This is when I felt even more of the angry borderline energy. I quietly said I'm sorry I don't want to now. She didn't like it.

A few minutes later the rage was stronger, the upset energy that I'm treating her terribly, that I can't even give her 10 minutes, that she does so much for me.

Boom. She was suddenly telling me to get out of the house, give her the house keys and car keys, and pressuring me to sort out the new house and take the boys with me.

180 degree turn. I suppose she has been getting frustrated that I'm not responding my re-opening my heart.

I rapidly and peaceful left without hesitation.

I'm just stepping into a nearby hotel now...

[GaGrl]

All of her behavior is part of what a peNIS can do when faced with a partner putting boundaries in place. She wants to return the relationship to what was comfortable for HER before you put boundaries in place.

One way she reacts is "seducing" you to believe she has changed/will change her behavior by acting sweet, considerate, calm, and rational. As you have just experienced -- she can't sustain that facade. This is why we recommend that you look to what she does -- not what she says.

The other way she is reacting is the extinction burst. When you don't respond the way she wants, when she doesn't get what she wants, her anger and rage flare (perhaps worse than you have ever seen).

Now you know how tricky those 10 minute talks can be.

[ForeverDad]

Since she's opening to therapy, I could agree to that, and that we continue looking after the boys in their current home together.

That "we" thought has dangerous vibrations when combined with "in their current home together".  So you're now pondering the idea of leaving the kids behind?  You're moving out, right?  Since your purpose was for the kids to be with you at least half the overnights and more if she relinquished parenting, then does leaving the kids behind mean you're staying behind too?  That the new apartment is just to have a place to work (remotely) in peace?  This would be "remote" from the kids this way.  When and where would the kids have peace and calm?

This sounds a lot like a variation on the problematic "nesting" concept.  That's where neither parent has a home with the kids but the parents take turns helicoptering in.  Nice concept but it doesn't work for long.  Your version seems to indicate she will always be there.  An issue I see, not the only one, is that the kids won't have a home with you away from the discord and dysfunction.

While it's possible her admission does indicate a turning point in her life, this is still promises to change and not evidence of real and lasting improvement.

And as already mentioned you too need recovery from the dysfunctional relationship, even if this was the end with your current relationship, it's not healthy to visualize yourself in a new relationship too soon.  Rebound relationships often fail.  Give yourself time to recover.

[GaGrl]

I agree completely with ForeverDad. In the context of the trial separation I described, you would set yourself up as if the separation were permanent. So whatever arrangements you would have for your portion of childcare and for work would take place in your new apartment.

I don't believe your partner can handle parenting 100%, or even 50%, of the time.

[ForeverDad]

All of her behavior is part of what a peNIS can do when faced with a partner putting boundaries in place. She wants to return the relationship to what was comfortable for HER before you put boundaries in place.

Not sure exactly what that "peNIS" reference intended, but probably it's what I recall my divorce lawyer warning me... to think with my big head, not my little head.

From a post on February 5, 2011:
I've posted about this topic a few times before, it's probably a good time to mention it again as it teaches a lesson: Experience is not the best teacher, it is the harshest teacher.  So, if you can, learn from others' experiences.

My lawyer warned me to avoid a trap a prior client had fallen for.  His client was divorcing his wife and the reports had come out well for him, his wife's behaviors were that concerning, he was going to have custody of his children, all that was needed was for him to sign.  One last signature. That's all.  No response to his letter to come in and sign, so he called (probably his secretary) and guess who answered?  The wife.   Yes, they were back together again.   The husband dropped the divorce.  Six months passed.  Then the husband came in wanting a divorce yet again, his wife really hadn't changed after all.  This time around his wife knew which behaviors the court and evaluators scrutinized and which she should avoid during the custody evaluation (or it might have been the court's cheaper parenting investigation) and the second time around the reports recommended the children stay with her.  You see, the second report had little or nothing to do with the first one, dropping the first case and starting over in court had triggered a Full Reset.

My lawyer wanted me to avoid a similar mistake.  He told me that even if she came and danced on my lawn naked, I should think with my big head and not my little one.

[GaGrl]

Sorry, it was meant to be pwBPD...

But I'm having a laugh over the "big head"...

Gotta keep a sense of humor, or we fall over the efge.

[truthdevotee]

Thank you all so much.

This morning her rage is full blown. I can tell through her texting.

I'm on my way to see a flat.

After this last 12 hours, I'm reminded how dysfunctional she is. I need to make fast use of this reminder.

If the house is nice, I'll say yes immediately and use the next week to get the boys in their as their permanent home.

I agree with everything, I was being wishy washy and holding on for hope.

Being thrown out last night was a gift, a stark reminder of 180 degree turns.

In this rage she can be completely different, acting much more assertively, eventually to crash into feelings of hopelessness and despair.

Ill be ready to get my lawyer involved.

I just don't know what she is feeding the boys whilst I'm not there

[truthdevotee]

I saw the flat. Big and perfect for the boys.

I accepted it and they accepted me as tenant. Later today I would pay the fee as formal commitment before signing. Move in date would be September 10. Still some time away.

Is the perfect location. Perfect size.

So... Here I am at the real thing, the real moment...

This is where the mind says are things really that bad, can't I handle it, would I 'take them from their mum who they love and she loves them " since that is precisely what she is saying she will do. But that's because she lacks maturity and would literally be so selfish as to not consider what THEY would feel about it.

How will the boys feel through this... My 2 year old, who is still attached to her. She would essentially abandon him.

I suppose this would be easier if she would commit and align and be an adult. But that's the thing, that's never been possible...

[truthdevotee]

I looked into my sons eyes and saw innocence and fear.

Was the fear my protection?

Is it worth keeping it going for them?

[truthdevotee]

Her behaviour is full on splitting today

[truthdevotee]

I think the idea in keeping it going for them is considering the balance of dysfunction vs capacity to live in the dysfunction, personally.

But ultimately what's best for kids? To witness the dysfunction with a dissatisfied Dad or have separate homes with a happier Dad?

Her behaviour is so manic, erratic today that I'm thinking I should contact my lawyer to see if I can get immediate full custody.

I expect in 2 or 3 days her manic state will turn into a despondent state with very little energy

[truthdevotee]

She's very much focusing on trying to make me fear that I'm messing up the boys psychologically...

A lot of bullying today.

[khibomsis]

TD, it's called an extinction burst. You set a boundary ( no physical touch) and made sure she respected it.  :Then you set another one ( I'm not living with you). Well done! Now she is behaving like a three year old. PwBPD react like that when the person that never had boundaries starts to have them. It is good for her. She will learn and grow.
I take it so you are walking away when you can? Try to take the boys out and have fun. Love yourself. 
 

[ForeverDad]

I had been married for over a decade, most of that time as a religious volunteer.  But once we sought to have children (I thought it would bring joy to her distressed and critical side) it became even worse.  She was the doting mother at first but another side of her developed.  She then saw me not as her trusted friend and lover but as a father.  Her memories of her abused childhood were triggered.

That part of my story may not be fully comparable to yours.  But likely you saw the increasing criticism of others, your family (FOO), your mutual fiends and finally you yourself.  I wasn't leaving the relationship, I was essentially being ejected, rejected.  My efforts on continuing with her became impossible, I would have been risking who I was.  Sort of, irresistible force (her demands) meets brick wall (me with stronger boundaries).

That resulted in the implosion of the relationship.  Extinctions bursts, more intensive demands for me to shrink back to the other's historical but dysfunctional comfort zone.  Then came rejection, veiled and not-so-veiled threats, then more and more extreme allegations... make sure your lawyer is prepared to defend you for what is to come.  How your path develops and precisely what your tests will be... that remains to be seen.  But keep your eyes focused on the future for you and your children.

The many here who had no choice but to move forward with their lives will attest that it's tough going for quite a while but seeing the light at the end of the tunnel helps and life is so much better on the other side.

You can learn about the five stages of grieving a loss also here and here and everywhere online... denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.  It's a complicated and personal process, but eventual acceptance is a measure of granting yourself peace with that reality.  Intriguing video at that first link — though it focuses on losing someone in death — it adds meaning as an ongoing sixth facet to resolving our lost relationship.

[GaGrl]

But ultimately what's best for kids? To witness the dysfunction with a dissatisfied Dad or have separate homes with a happier Dad?

What we have said on this forum many times is that it is better for the children to be in a stable, healthy environment with one parent 50% of the time rather than in an unstable, dysfunctional environment with two parents who are at odds 100% of the time.

And it may be that you end up with more than 50% of the time with your boys.

[truthdevotee]

TD, it's called an extinction burst. You set a boundary ( no physical touch) and made sure she respected it.  :Then you set another one ( I'm not living with you). Well done! Now she is behaving like a three year old. PwBPD react like that when the person that never had boundaries starts to have them. It is good for her. She will learn and grow.
I take it so you are walking away when you can? Try to take the boys out and have fun. Love yourself. 
 

Your post uplifted me when I read it. I remembered to be joyous with the lads. We were locked out of the house for a few hours because she disappeared; she hadn't taken her mobile phone out with her so missed all my calls, and she had taken my set of keys a couple of hours earlier (she requested them from me; I gave them... naive of me, in hindsight)... We had fun outside the house in a garden area playing hide and seek.

When she finally turned up, we came in the house. It's as if her rage had ended and she was quiet. Suddenly she said sorry for her behavior for the things she said e.g. the ridiculing me, walking on me, etc. It was awfully intense all morning so I was happy to see her rage had already crashed - in the past it would last for days. I think because I have totally given up reacting to it, and I just stay quiet and connected to my heart even when it goes into pain, perhaps she has more room to see how awful that behavior is.

She suddenly broke into tears and said sorry and that she loves me. I said that I receive her sorry but I don't want to hear it anymore that she loves me, and I need time and space to receive her apology fully and when I'm ready I will go back to her and ask exactly what she is apologizing about. I said go look after yourself - go calm down your nervous system, I can't do it for you.

What a roller coaster ride. Up down up down. And now she's turned again... now will be the sweet i love you's... let's see now if she'd be motivated to pursue individual therapy

[truthdevotee]

What we have said on this forum many times is that it is better for the children to be in a stable, healthy environment with one parent 50% of the time rather than in an unstable, dysfunctional environment with two parents who are at odds 100% of the time.

And it may be that you end up with more than 50% of the time with your boys.

Thank you so much... this is insightful. I will remember this.

[ForeverDad]

Many members with children struggle with this issue. Is it better to try and maintain an intact family and sacrifice my own happiness or is it best for the children to have at least one home with a happy parent?

Several years ago I came across the quote below, attributed to various sources.  This is the oldest reference I found, from a 1986 book titled Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce.  I bought it to confirm and found it on page 195.

An interesting observation by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action, as appropriate, will enable your lives or at least a part of your lives to be spent be in a calm, stable environment - your home, wherever that may be - away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

In short, you can choose to make the best of a lousy situation, whether you stay with demonstrated improvement, "stay for now" pending improvement or whether you go.  The reasonable best.

Your decisions of course will be affected by your spouse's actions and behaviors.  But it's always up to you to decide what boundaries you will set in your life, what you will do or not do, etc.

I would add this perspective too...  Many think they can't "leave" their children but they are already leaving their children to work almost daily, go shopping, etc.  Yes, there is a risk a family court could decide we get less time with our children but at least part of the children's lives would be in a stable, reasonably normal home.  Ponder whether that is a better example for the kids than living only in a dysfunctional home.

Some here do stay together but typically that is when the dysfunction isn't as severe.  How unhealthy your family's dysfunction is, that's for you to evaluate.

[truthdevotee]

I had been married for over a decade, most of that time as a religious volunteer.  But once we sought to have children (I thought it would bring joy to her distressed and critical side) it became even worse.  She was the doting mother at first but another side of her developed.  She then saw me not as her trusted friend and lover but as a father.  Her memories of her abused childhood were triggered.

That part of my story may not be fully comparable to yours.  But likely you saw the increasing criticism of others, your family (FOO), your mutual fiends and finally you yourself.  I wasn't leaving the relationship, I was essentially being ejected, rejected.  My efforts on continuing with her became impossible, I would have been risking who I was.  Sort of, irresistible force (her demands) meets brick wall (me with stronger boundaries).

That resulted in the implosion of the relationship.  Extinctions bursts, more intensive demands for me to shrink back to the other's historical but dysfunctional comfort zone.  Then came rejection, veiled and not-so-veiled threats, then more and more extreme allegations... make sure your lawyer is prepared to defend you for what is to come.  How your path develops and precisely what your tests will be... that remains to be seen.  But keep your eyes focused on the future for you and your children.

The many here who had no choice but to move forward with their lives will attest that it's tough going for quite a while but seeing the light at the end of the tunnel helps and life is so much better on the other side.

You can learn about the five stages of grieving a loss also here and here and everywhere online... denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.  It's a complicated and personal process, but eventual acceptance is a measure of granting yourself peace with that reality.  Intriguing video at that first link — though it focuses on losing someone in death — it adds meaning as an ongoing sixth facet to resolving our lost relationship.

Thank you for sharing ForeverDad. I'll keep coming back to this and look into the resources you have shared. Grateful for the information to help me move through this with wisdom, balance, awareness and love.

[truthdevotee]

She says

[21/08, 19:52] Honey: I don't really know what am I doing wrong