Stokholm Syndrome?

[Guts42]

I was texting with my Aunt who's very aware of the situation I'm in right now.  She's been such an amazing source of support.

She asked how things were going and I half jokingly texted back, "going between feeling 'guilty and horrible' to 'wow I can't believe my W just said/did that.' "

My Aunt focused in and asked "YOU feel horrible? Why?"

I responded that since I've been following my W's rules and regulations after the brow beating the last 5 nights (sleep deprivation is her current favorite coercion tactic... I finally caved night 5 after operating on 3 to 4 hours of sleep a night 5 days in a row).  I said I felt guilty (hello FOG!) because since I've been acting in accordance with the law of the land, things have been almost normal.  Her response has me a bit shook:

"This is sadly a 100% toxic relationship.  You are likely suffering from Stockholm syndrome.  You are being emotionally abused on a daily basis.   I think you may not even to able to trust your emotions when it comes to your feelings toward her.    You have been manipulated to the point you are not in control of your own feelings.  You have been told how to feel for years."

For some reason that struck a chord with me.  I looked up Stokholm syndrome, only having a casual knowledge of the topic.  While not an official description or anything, this response from this page has me shaking:
https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-know-if-you-are-suffering-from-Stockholm-Syndrome

"You love them, you understand them… or try. You justify their behavior- you know theyre not really a bad person, but are maybe just having a difficult time. Or maybe its because youre the cause- you instigate, you're bad.

They love you, they must- they care for you even though youre bad. No one else would, you know this. You're bad.

But not always… sometimes you make them happy. Sometimes you get a reward, a kindness, because you made them happy. Whatever you did, you do again and again because it makes them happy (thats all that matters) and ~that~ is when you're good… or at least not quite so bad.

And all is well. You comply with every request because to do otherwise excludes you from whats good, be it singular love or a tribe. If you rebel, theres hell to pay, and even worse: discard or banishment. You can't handle that- youre bad, no one else wants you. You can't function outside of this unit and you know it- its your life's breath.

You do what you must to remain intact with the oneness of the unit as if youre a dependant limb of an overall physical body. There is no sense of self, as there is no self, as there is no conscience or morality or anything else.

All that matters is that theyre happy.

Does this feel familiar?"

Does it?  Does it sound familiar to anyone else?  Feeling quite shaken.
I knew I needed out of this marriage but for some reason this has me feeling sick with panic and dread.

[GaGrl]

You might want to read more on Trauma Bonding.

[I Am Redeemed]

You might want to read more on Trauma Bonding.

Came here to say this. A hallmark of Stockholm syndrome is a negative or defensive attitude towards any third party, professional, or authority figure that may suggest or offer help for the victim to leave. Generally the victim has been held captive by the abuser.

They are similar, but trauma bonding is more descriptive of what people in abusive relationships experience.

[I Am Redeemed]

Also, I might add that someone who has distance from these types of relationships may not understand how we can feel empathy or even sympathy for people who are abusive. Generally,  those of us who get caught in these dynamics have caretaker tendencies, or we feel overly responsible for others, or we are subconsciously trying to resolve childhood trauma through toxic adult relationships, or all of the above.

Answering your question, yes, it sounds very familiar, and I wish I could say that I left my relationship before it caused lots of trauma to my kids, but I didn't (at least not until the youngest was born and nothing had changed). Even when I knew it was completely necessary, I struggled with feeling horrible for my ex. I still feel sadness for him and his situation, sometimes, but nearly 4 years later, I have clarity surrounding his choices versus mine, and the consequences of each.

It's OK to feel sad about your wife's situation. It IS sad. Just remember that you can still do what you need to do to protect yourself and your kids while acknowledging the sadness of the situation.

[ForeverDad]

Just throwing this in... It can also be a fear of losing a known quantity for an unknown.  Like a person hanging onto the edge of a tall building, it's terrible to be there but hard to let go and reach out for that rescue rope in case that makes it worse.

[babyducks]

Does it?  Does it sound familiar to anyone else? 

Yes.    This is familiar to me.   I learned after some time in my relationship with my pwBPD that I was trauma bonded.     A guy by the name of Patrick Carnes came up with the term.     trauma bonds occur when we go through periods of intense love and excitement followed by periods of abuse, neglect, and mistreatment. The cycle of being devalued and then rewarded over and over,  creates strong chemical and hormonal reactions'.  Emotionally we tend to attach to our abusers subconsciously from the perspective of 'if I make you happy and take really good care of you; you won't hurt me any more'.     Trauma bonds are  why victims of abuse often describe feeling more deeply bonded to their abuser than they do to people who actually consistently treat them well.

[Guts42]

I don't understand why this is hitting me so hard.
After everything, THIS concept/realization has me deeply worried and filled with an intense dread this morning.

I even skipped a workout, something I never do, and instead just did some absent minded cardio... but then I realized that I skipped it because of my orders the night before... "wake me up at 7:30, no 7am"
I changed my workout to accommodate being her alarm clock.  [Again, I know that I chose to di this... but maybe I'm more conditioned than I thought?  I knew that if I started at 6am I wouldn't finish in time and she gets very irritated when there's any evidence I worked out at all.  She scoffs at my post-workout protein shakes and ridicules me when I consume them while she's awake (even in the room over).  So I normally get up at 5am, workout (garage gym), workout by 530am and finish all evidence (post workout shake, stop sweating, change clothes) by 8am which gives me 1/2 an hour of leeway as she's normally up between 8 and 830am.  Now when I combine her keeping me up past midnight on threat of a fight it really seems she's trying to keep me up late enough that I physically can't workout.  She makes fun of me for dozing and gets violently angry if I fall asleep while talking in bed regardless of what time it is.  My doctors have all recommended weight training to manage a few different things and I honestly just love it.  I have sleep apnea and fairly severe asthma- anaerobic training really helps keep the side effects of those at bay... but she's commented so many times that me working out makes her feel bad about herself so I've crafted an entire routine around not exposing her to it.

After the now week long of sleep deprivation and brow beating two nights ago, I've been acting within her prescribed orders... I didn't want to upset that AND she had me up until midnight.

I tried to go to bed on my own about a week ago and have been paying the price since.  She had a colossal extinction burst when I just said I was going to get ready for bed.  She knows I'm up at 5am most days.  She doesn't work.  The kids haven't started homeschool (and even when they are in session she still sleeps until 9am most days)... so as far as she's concerned there's no reason to get to bed until midnight-ish.

Sorry, ranting here... this feels like a confessional stream of consciousness.

Just when I thought I'd assessed how deeply I've let myself be controlled...

[ThanksForPlaying]

As babyducks notes, it's a real chemical, physical reaction.  Very much like other addictions - gambling, substance abuse.  Our brains react to the ups and downs of the unpredictability, the highs and lows.

This can leave us with the feeling the non-PDs are boring people.  Or that our lives are somehow less fullfilling without PDs involved.  It's very similar to a cycle of alcoholism where daily drinking produces temporary highs, followed by lows and chaos. And it's clearly a very difficult cycle to break.

Aside from what's going on with the PDs in our lives, much of the battle also depends on retraining our own brains to accept a different chemical cycle.

[GaGrl]

One thing we often remind each other here is that "you aren't responsible for feeling her emotions for her."

 it appears you are doing this. By feeling her anxiety about...going to sleep, getting up at a certain time, her body image /health, her being alone for any length of time, numerous other feelings that arise for her, you then alter YOUR routine, YOUR schedule, YOUR sleep and health needs, YOUR speech, etc.

Does this alleviate her feelings? Not really. It is avoidance, not alleviation.

In the meantime, the stress of living someone else's turbulent emotional life takes its toll on your health, mental and physical.

I think you know this.

[Snowflake90]

I hate to sound patronizing like been there done that, but in a way, I think that's a little bit what this forums about, right? Us sharing our similar experiences. (without sounding patronizing of course )
My ex would do something quite similar when I wanted to work out. Perhaps because she always had a terrible self image (though she wasn't fat), she always found manipulative ways to have me skip a work out. She would particularly throw tantrums when the nanny was leaving at 6 pm and I wanted to do a work out 5:30 pm. (I take 45 mins to do a work out). She couldn't handle the kids for a quarter of an hour by herself.  On the manipulation side in general, she'd usually do it with self harm or suicide threats. She repeatedly told me should I ever leave her, she would kill herself. I literally felt trapped. My life was centered around not setting her off (and it wasn't an easy task ). Thank Goodness she didn't do it, once I left . But the fear was there. Also, when I tried to challenge the status quo, she cut herself. Then she'd blame me. Her cuts were very deep mind you. Always a complex ER visit.
I also felt the constant FOG, like, I must take care of her, that's my identity and what not.
I was on paroxetine back then and extremely anxious. Once I left, I cut the med and breathed many a sigh of relief.
If you're really onto a way out, and are an uber co-dependent, do it through a trial separation. It's what I did and helped me wonders. The doubt was killing me, but putting it out in an open way made it easier even for myself. Again I subscribe to the concept of "no leave messages" here. Just throwing ideas, please use your best judgement. You do seem desperate, however, and sometimes, some time out can be just the thing to obtain clarity.

[babyducks]

I don't understand why this is hitting me so hard.
After everything, THIS concept/realization has me deeply worried and filled with an intense dread this morning...

Just when I thought I'd assessed how deeply I've let myself be controlled...

it's a hard concept/realization.    for me, it was yet another example of how the relationship that I thought I was having - was actually not the relationship I was having.     at the start I thought this was the relationship that would save me,.. the perfect relationship, my soul mate.    and it was going to be her and I against the world.    and then - rather quickly - I realized there was something wrong with the relationship.    I consoled myself with the idea that it wasn't that bad, that I could work through it.     that I would soldier may through it like the good trooper I am.

I can say now - that looking back -   these weren't concepts I had ever been exposed to before.   they were nothing I learned in my adult life.     I certainly never had to try and figure out something like this before.   

how are you today ?

[Guts42]

Today I'm hanging in there.

I've been staring at this Protective Order my case manager sent me for days now.  I've filled out most of it but when it comes to the parts about listing the instances of abuse starting with the most recent I lock up.  I start to shake, feel like I can't breathe, and find myself fighting tears.  The self doubt creeps in... it isn't that bad... no one's going to believe me... this doesn't even count as abuse does it?

So I decided to take a deep dive through all of my records- months of audio recordings, journal entries, messages to friends, and even posts from here.  Compiling all this data into a unified time-line has been heart wrenching but a very clear pattern is emerging.  This is so much more than a difficult relationship with a cluster B personality. This is a severely abusive relationship with a real and tangible pattern and it's getting worse by the week, especially for the kids.

I'm maybe a third of the way done (starting May 2021 and up to now) and hope to be done tomorrow.  I plan to use us it to populate the form and write up an affidavit a legal advisor recommended I draft.

I think CPS is days away from calling me about the second report on my W this year (her third in total).

It has been eye opening. Emotionally exhausted... but strangely feeling hopeful.  Getting everything into a single time-line snapped me out of my FOG.  Things are going to get tough but soon after they're going to get better.

[GaGrl]

Be sure to include the sleep deprivation in the timeline. Denying sleep and sleep deprivation is considered abuse.

[Guts42]

Is it enough that she "won't let me sleep" by making threats, refusing to calm down, getting violently angry if doze while talking late?

Quite frankly, she said things like "I just want to punch you in your face!" and often I'm afraid to sleep unless I've calmed her down for fear of her assaulting me in my sleep.

[I Am Redeemed]

Is it enough that she "won't let me sleep" by making threats, refusing to calm down, getting violently angry if doze while talking late?

Quite frankly, she said things like "I just want to punch you in your face!" and often I'm afraid to sleep unless I've calmed her down for fear of her assaulting me in my sleep.

Yes. Include this, just like you did here.

Have you seen the abuse power and control wheel? Aka the Duluth model

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=312920.0

This might help you determine what is abusive behavior.

[GaGrl]

Yes, your situation is abusive. She doesn't allow you to go to bed when you want to/need to, i.e. she controls your health and sleep hygiene. She does that by verbally abusing you or starting an argument that lasts hours into your sleep schedule. This she does in spite of your being diagnosed with sleep disorders.

The chart that Cat linked to is very clear -- you probably can work through it with a personal and family example for most of the categories.

[ForeverDad]

There is the matter of her abuse of you.
There is the matter of her abuse of the kids.

Don't ignore either one.  Many here learned that for custody issues it was very important how and how much the kids were impacted.  Report sufficient incidents so both you and the children can get protection.

Also, my court - and apparently others too - focused mostly on events within the 6 month period before filing.  Older incidents were mostly ignored unless they added to establishing documentation of a pattern of poor behaviors.

Policies vary across states and jurisdictions but I recall my local CPS discounted my report that my then-spouse was ranting and raging at me in our preschooler's presence.  I was told to call back if she directed her rage at the child.  Evidently it made a difference whether I was the focus of a rage (not actionable) or my child (actionable).  After all CPS = Child Protection Services and I wasn't a child.

Eventually things got so bad it did end up in court (she faced aThreat of DV charge) and I got a temporary protection order while the case was pending.

I have the means to fly her out to stay with her Mom

If you believe your spouse/partner has money saved or hidden, then don't worry about how she will relocate, she's an adult and legally as an adult has the ability to fend for herself.  Time to let go your caretaker role and focus on yourself and the children.  It's understandable you want to facilitate things so there are as few bumps in the process as possible, but you and the kids must be Priority One.

[Guts42]

Also, my court - and apparently others too - focused mostly on events within the 6 month period before filing.  Older incidents were mostly ignored unless they added to establishing documentation of a pattern of poor behaviors

The crazy part is I didn't really start taking notes until May... it's only been about 4 months if logging and I think I have more than enough here.  It's been going on for over a decade though.

Evidently it made a difference whether I was the focus of a rage (not actionable) or my child (actionable).  After all CPS = Child Protection Services and I wasn't a child.

Good point!  This time I have two agencies/services involved.  There's CPS but also a domestic violence crisis center who's helping me work on my protective order paperwork.

[Guts42]

Have you seen the abuse power and control wheel? Aka the Duluth model

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=312920.0

This might help you determine what is abusive behavior.

Woah... 7/8 on the wheel.
Thank you- that does help frame things even more.

[LovelyRita50]

Guts, I am worried about the sleep deprivation and how it's affecting you. You can't make the best logical decisions when you are exhausted.

You know your situation best, but I'm thinking maybe this is an area to set a firm boundary and not to budge, even if not budging results in a somewhat dramatic chain of events.

What I'm thinking is you telling her that you need your sleep, and you will be going to bed at a time right for you, not her. If she persists in arguing or disrupting your sleep, grab your kids, go to the aunt's or a hotel, turn off your phone, and sleep. Let her stew while she's all alone.

I realize she will likely object to you taking the kids with you. You might have to tell her bluntly you don't trust her with them anymore. You could even tell her you fear she'll make the kids responsible for her emotions by keeping THEM up. Or that you'll sleep better if the kids are with you. Whatever you need to do to get them out of there.

It seems drastic, but you've spent years accommodating her feelings and whims. It's time to focus on your own well-being.

[Guts42]

Feeling a bit devastated today.

Got a call from the great sleep doc nearby- sleep apnea is "different."
It's considered complex which means I have central AND obstructive (both in my case are considered idopathic)

This scared the bejebus out of me - hearing that I STOP breathing at night was quite the shock.  The doc explained that it just means I need a different type of machine they only breakout for their 'favorite' patients

It does mean I need yet another sleep study.

My uBPD's reaction to this was an expected "I HATE YOUR OVERNIGHTS!  They're really hard on ME!" and she stormed off.  For someone who's an empath she sure missed the fear in my voice...

I offered to go get coffee/drinks for the her and the kids from a nearby shop- that I needed to get out from my computer's heat.  I'm embarrassed to admit, I pulled into the parking lot and just let myself cry.  Not so much about the new diagnosis (although a bit)... more that my W's reaction was all about her.

I know I need to file a few things (divorce, protective order, cps report, etc) and that this marriage is over.  I think the tears are because it's the first time I really felt that reality.  My Aunt suggested it's because I'm starting to mourn the now dead false reality I was living in... maybe it's from the lack of sleep too?

Got a call from a much more reasonably priced attorney.  We're talking tomorrow.

[I Am Redeemed]

Your aunt seems pretty insightful.

Grieving for the loss of the relationship you thought you had, or could have, is part of the process of detaching from an unhealthy relationship. The sleep thing might be a factor, too, because I know I can tend to be more emotional when I haven't had enough sleep.

I think you're physically, mentally, and emotionally exhausted and the grief hit you hard today

Lots of us who tried to make abusive relationships work thought things like "he/she loves me/loves the kids, it's just that he/she (fill in the blank reasons to explain the abusive behavior)".

When you finally start getting clarity, the reality check can be very sad. It made me feel super alone.

[kells76]

So grateful you have your aunt. I hope you can allow yourself to lean hard on her in this time of your life.

I see you taking healthy steps forward for you and your kids, despite and through the grief and loss you feel that shows up when you give it space. Glad you had time for you and how you felt in that parking lot.

Thanks for giving us an update on things. Prayers for a positive and helpful attorney visit tomorrow.

kells76

[formflier]

Hey Guts42

Yes the knowledge of sleep issues is scary...but I want to encourage you that getting your machine set up right and improving your sleep will be a life changing thing for the better.

I've been doing it since 2010. 

There was a point around 2015/16 where things went down hill and a sleep study confirmed that my settings needed to change.  Change them and I was a new man again.

How old are you?

It took me a month or two in order to be comfortable sleeping with a thing on my face but once I realized the benefits..I look forward to sleeping now.  For a long time I didn't.

Keep pressing the "preparing" for divorce.  Much different than actually filing.  Gather information..write out plans. 

Best,

FF

[Snowflake90]

No matter how much we suffered, like people have said here, the death of our dreams of growing old with the idealized spouse hits hard.
I have left her on december 2020 and only now I feel like I'm fully detaching. It's a normal process, and you should not be afraid of it. It's not silly at all. Let the tears run, they're part of the healing process. That being said, you do seem exhausted, from your sleep problems + sleep deprivation. You should seriously consider some way of getting more sleep. Now, you may need to be in your 100% more than ever.
Wishing you best of luck and all I can say is, life goes on after divorce. All is not over. It takes some time but you do heal, and you learn valuable lessons.
For me at least, however sad I was, the first night I spent outside, it felt like bliss. I slept like I hadn't in 6 years of a failed marriage. Not having to manage her moods was heaven for me. The tears paled in comparison to the physical improvement in my overall health.

[Guts42]

Thanks everyone.

Had a chat with another attorney.
While he had some good advice the prevailing theme I got from him was "just be a man and divorce her, she sounds awful but it's not really abuse because she isn't hitting you or the kids."  He also said the Protective Order would be a waste of time.

He's clearly not the right attorney for me but I felt a little deflated after.  He said that despite CPS involvement, the outreach assistance, the kids' therapist in in corner, and my very good notes and recordings it would still be an almost impossible battle to get my uBPD wife removed .

[GaGrl]

I agree -- if this attorney doesn't recognize the leve l if abuse going on in your home and recognize that your mentally ill wife will require High Conflict strategies, he is not the attorney for you.

What other resources do you have for attorney referrals?

[formflier]

Sounds like not the guy for you..but in the future, when you hear stuff like that..ask why.  Keep digging to see the Ls initial impression for how they are going to handle the case.

It's one thing if he doesn't thing a protective order will be granted or perhaps he believes it will be granted but won't survive the first hearing or ?

That's valuable information for you, especially if it is coming from Ls that regularly practice in the courtrooms (and with the Judges) that you will likely draw.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

I've reached out to two other attorneys and am awaiting a call back.

I know this warrants a long answer... but how do you break free?

I came to conclusion today, after being awake for about 40 hours now, that I'm not scared of my W.  I'm scared of what will happen to her without me.

Last night was rough.  Kids has a sleepover at the Aunt's house.  W was NOT happy.  Kept crying and saying how she didn't like it, it wasn't fair, and I didn't care about how she felt.  She got angry.
Eventually it got bad enough that I felt this deep urge to run.  I wanted to get in the car and go to the Aunt's and be with the kids.

So I did- or I tried.  This was about 2am.
My w followed me out and acted so kind and concerned for me and I bought it.  She said that if tried to leave she'd throw herself behind the car to stop me.
She later used all the normal tactics to convince me it's my fault and I'm the issue. For awhile I bought it.  I said something back that called out a double standard.  My usual protocol is to just let her verbally assault me until she gets tired.  So saying something back was a major break in protocol.

She got very flustered and said, "when you get like this you make me wan a kill myself.  You make me wanna alot my wrist and die.  That's the way I'm probably going out anyway so it might as well be causes by the person I love the most even if he hates me!"

I was recording and I got this.  We are a single party notice state.
I also have a detailed record going back to April 2021 to just a few days ago.  It's 35 pages with dates and times.
I think she needs to be institutionalized or at least evaluated.
Based on what I have is it possible to get an involuntary commitment?

[formflier]

No idea if it would result in involuntary commitment but I do recommend you call 911 and let them know about suicide threats.  Each and every time it comes out of her mouth.

Best,

FF