How to say "I don't want you to visit"?

[WalkbyFaith]

Hello friends - it has been quite a while since I've been active here, but I have been back online doing some browsing/reading the last few days.

I'm currently trying to prepare for a conversation that I know is coming with my unBPD mom. Quick background: we live in different states across the country and historically we (my H & I) have only seen my family once a year when we go back to visit. Since my son was born last year, of course now my mom wants to come visit us once a year in addition to us going there, so she can see my son twice a year. They did their first visit to us last January and it was awful. I had stress hives on my body for 2+ weeks that started during their visit. My H & I have decided that we do not want them (really just her) in our home anymore, at least until something changes.

We went back for our annual visit (to see other family and friends in the area too, not just my parents) in late October this year. So I am expecting the conversation to come up any time now about when they will visit us. I'm honestly really surprised it hasn't come up yet. I'm trying to prepare in advance what I will say to her when she does bring it up. No matter how I say it, it's probably going to result in a fight, which makes me almost-literally tremble with fear. I instantly turn back into "her scared little girl" when conflict arises.

So there are two potential scenarios that I need to be prepared to respond to:
1) She asks when is a good time for them to visit and/or proposes visit dates.
2) She tells me she really wants to visit but she is just too sick to travel right now (lots of health issues, some quite real and some quite exagerated).

Either scenario gives me opportunity to inform her that we don't want her to come visit, now or indefinitely, but I have tried and tried and just can't come up with wording that sounds right and that hopefully won't make her blow up. Suggestions are much appreciated.

[Notwendy]

There's probably no way to say this that won't result in a reaction from your mother. I understand how hard this is, and how afraid you are. Many of us here feel the same as you do. We don't want to hurt our mother's feelings, and yet, we need to have boundaries with our mothers in order to avoid a potentially abusive situation.

Many of us have grown up knowing that to keep the peace, we have to comply- saying no has consequences we wish to avoid. However, not saying no also has consequences we don't want as well. It's a tough choice.

I have done a lot of work on co-dependency to learn about how to say no to my mother. It's not easy, but I realize that I need to be able to say no when I mean no, and yes when I mean yes, rather than always appeasing out of fear. Unfortunately, changing this pattern also goes along with a reaction from my parents- and this included my father ( he is deceased now) who would side with my mother if she was upset with me ( see the Karpman triangle for how this works).

I recently had to have this type of conversation with my mother. Emotionally, it was rough. She doesn't like boundaries. Her reaction is to push them and get verbally abusive. In addition ( I noticed your name) I also have the principle of "Honor your parents" so when they are angry, I feel I am doing something wrong. I had to reframe honor - is it honoring my parents to enable them to be abusive people? Honoring a parent may not be the same as always saying yes because I am afraid of their reaction.
But I will warn you that in my situation, having boundaries with my mother also impacted my relationship with my father. I felt I was choosing between my own and my family's welfare and keeping my mother content. I would think a normal parent would also be concerned about their child's welfare.

My BPD mom is elderly now, and has brought up moving closer me from time to time.

I recently visited her and was in tears most of the time. She treats me like I am her servant and is verbally and emotionally abusive. My husband has seen how stressed I am around her. In an normal situation, I would have had my elderly parent closer to me, but an abusive parent is different.

I had to say no to her wanting to move closer to me and so here's what I did:

I had support- from this board, from a counselor, and from a 12 step ACA group ( works for dysfunction as well as alcohol- family patterns are similar)

I made this about me- using "I" statements. Making it about my mother would have resulted in her arguing about her own behavior.

I simply said "No" and of course she demanded to know why. I said "I can't handle it".

State that you are staying with your plans to visit her ( if you are) so it's clear you still plan to see her.

The reaction was predictable. She got verbally mean, said very cruel things. Since this can't possibly be her fault, she has to assume it's my fault and so assumes things that are not true.

Do not react emotionally to the response. That adds fuel to the drama. Understandably, this is hurtful to her and the response to hurt feelings is to project them, deny them. If it gets to be too much, end the conversation. ( politely)

Lots of self care. This was upsetting, hard to do. I didn't sleep well for a while after that. Be good to yourself.

[Couscous]

Alas, the perfect wording will not prevent the blowback.

I highly recommend the book Mothers Who Cannot Love that basically has step-by-step instructions on how to handle a situation like this. It's a quick read, and you don't need to read the entire book. The author recommends rehearsing ahead of time/doing role plays, and also has a great list of nondefensive phrases that you can use, like a broken record if need be, that will help you stand your ground as well as defuse the situation as quickly as possible. Best of luck to you!

[GaGrl]

I would add that the difficulty and pain of dealing with this now is necessary to ensure that boundaries are in place for the future.

The best thing my father did for my mother and my family was to put physical distance between us and my mother's family.

[Methuen]

Rightly or wrongly, I tend to strategize ways to lessen the blowback.  I don't know if this was adaptive, or maladaptive...

It sounds like your parents came to visit you last January, and it was a terrible visit for you.

What made it a terrible visit?

Last October you went to their State.  I am going to assume you stayed at their house...? How did that go when it was on her territory?

I am also going to guess from the visiting pattern so far, that generally it might work out that you take turns with these visits...?

If in your second scenario, your mom says she is too sick to travel, then what if you were to say you were "thinking about" travel back to their State? But make it a short visit, and stay in a hotel...  Why stay in a hotel your mom asks in shock?  Because you need the space with the baby.  Make it about you, not about her.  And you are still coming to visit after all...

This sets a precedent, even in the event you don't end up going there.  You've still "planted a seed" about staying in a hotel.  Can you see a time in the future, when you could tell her that things have changed with the baby and you need your space, and so if they want to come, that is ok, but can they please book a hotel? (and then immediately offer to make several good hotel suggestions).  You could remind her that you were going to stay in a hotel when you went to visit her too.  If she has a fit, so be it, she doesn't need to come.  If she really wants to see you and grandson, she'll stay in a hotel, even if she doesn't like the change.  Everybody needs their space at the end of the day...

The other option is to hold the red cape in front of the charging bull, and just  tell her straight up that you need some space, and can't handle a visit either way (you going to her or her coming to you).  I'm not very good at that.  I can relate to the fear of her reaction you speak of.  There are times when I have been absolutely terrified of my mother's reactions.  It's irrational I know, and people who know her would never believe it.  It's the things she says... which strike absolute terror...

So I've learned to strategize...sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  But it works often enough, that I have developed a strategizing skill to deal with her...for better or worse.

[Notwendy]

I don't stay with my mother when I visit. While the hotel/Airbnb is an extra expense, it also is a place of respite during the visits- I can spend some time away from my mother. I also won't be alone with her in the house for a long period of time because if nobody else is there, her behavior can escalate.

It's also better for her- she's used to her own space. It's less stressful when she can have her own space.

We brought up the "hotel" idea with my in laws. They don't have BPD issues but my H was concerned that if we didn't stay with them, they'd feel hurt. Yet, they didn't really have space for us. When the kids were young, sleeping bags were fine but as they got older it was more uncomfortable. Same for us- we slept better in a larger bed than they had. Although they didn't say anything, I think they were a bit relieved to not have to prepare for house guests.

I think it's a good step to learn to speak up for your own needs.

[Couscous]

I’m not being facetious here, but why exactly do we have to visit our mothers?

[beatricex]

hi WalkbyFaith,

"Hey Mom, with your health issues, I don't want you to visit.  That's what the internet is for!  These days, everyone facetimes.  Mom, don't you love technology!  Even in a pandemic we can keep in touch!  Hey mom, post these pics to your social media [insert pic of your cute baby boy] and let your friends be proud you're a gramma!"

Too much? Too fake?  Doesn't sound like you?

Is there anyway to make this her idea to not come?

just brainstorming with you
 
b

[Notwendy]

Methuen- no we don't. It's entirely up to us. I visit mine because I wouldn't be OK with myself if I didn't - she's an elderly widow and to me, it just doesn't feel OK to not visit once in a while. But I do limit the visits to what I can manage. It's not with any illusions that it makes a difference for her, but it's still something I feel I want to do.

When my father was alive, I wanted to see him. My kids also had a relationship with him and cared about him very much. If I wanted to see him, it included her. I think it is good that the kids know who their grandparents are, as long as the conditions are safe for them, and they are.

I can imagine other situations where I might not feel a need to visit. Had my mother remarried- she might have gone on to a new family and had no wishes to be connected to her kids.

 I don't see it as being a hero, or rescuer, or even a good guy in this situation. I don't even know if she cares if I visit or not. But having lost one parent already, I just don't feel OK with not ever seeing her no matter what she thinks about it.

[Methuen]

I’m not being facetious here, but why exactly do we have to visit our mothers?

Methuen- no we don't. It's entirely up to us. I visit mine because I wouldn't be OK with myself if I didn't - she's an elderly widow and to me, it just doesn't feel OK to not visit once in a while. But I do limit the visits to what I can manage. It's not with any illusions that it makes a difference for her, but it's still something I feel I want to do.

Hey NotWendy…I think maybe you were replying to Couscous instead of to me…?

I actually spend a major chunk of my time and emotional energy meeting my elderly mother’s needs - within my attemped boundaries…

In reply to Couscous, I think we all have to do what is in the best interests of our own physical and mental health.  Like NotWendy, I wouldn’t be able to walk away from the responsibility that is my mom, for many reasons.  

However, my mom was not the “witch” profile, although the witch could emerge very occasionally.  I have no doubt that there are situations that warrant walking away from such toxic and destructive people, in order to save oneself. People  are complicated - just an observation.  

[zachira]

Perhaps this is more about not what you say to your mother and instead how to not become so overwhelmed by how you will be mistreated by your mother even if you say the most normal thing in the world that most parents would not be the least offended by. I found that limiting time with my mother with BPD and her enablers was often the best tactic. (My mother is deceased.) I would limit my visits, my phone calls both the amount and length, try to have someone around that she wanted to look good in front of, etc., Having a mother with BPD is a life long sorrow. We are here to listen and support you in any ways we can.

[Notwendy]

Methuen- yes I was! But the question- do we have to visit? No and in some cases, it's probably better if we don't.

Actually, after my most recent visit, where all she said when I left was that I upset her, I wondered if I should even visit.

But then she calls and acts as if nothing happened - I think she just forgets what she says or pretends nothing is wrong.

[Couscous]

I think it is good that the kids know who their grandparents are, as long as the conditions are safe for them…

This used to be my thinking and I am now in the process of rethinking this entirely.

When I was four years old I once said to my maternal grandmother: «You don’t like us, do you? » I now think it might have been better if I had never known her.

According to Nina Brown (Children of the Self-Absorbed), toxic grandparents absolutely can wound their grandchildren. Now, perhaps if my parents were still married I would consider exposing my kids to my mother for the sake of their being able to have a relationship with my father, but since they are divorced I do have other options. Not that it makes it any easier…

I am beginning to see how, as zachira had said, having a BPD mother really is a lifelong sorrow.

[Couscous]

But then she calls and acts as if nothing happened - I think she just forgets what she says or pretends nothing is wrong.

Oh, something certainly did happen. It is called emotional hot potato. She offloads her bad mood on you when you visit, you absorb her emotions and then feel like crap afterwards (maybe for days), and she gets to feel great. And that is the exact nature of the « service » you are providing for her.

[Notwendy]

Yup- one reason why visits are rare with time in between.

[beatricex]

hi again WalkbyFaith,

Just checking back in with you, how are you doing?  Did you have the convo with your Mom?

I was just wondering if the hives, the anxiety... stress you are feeling, is it just when she visits you or do phone calls, emails, and/or texts also trigger these feelings?

An update on me and my situation:  I went no contact with my BPD Mom back in March of this year.  It started with me just stating to my Mom (I called her) to Stop Texting Us (my husband and I).  That event was totally unplanned and kind of a knee jerk reaction to her love bombing me the entire week of my birth-week (I would say birthday, but she kept it up for a week).

I seized the opportunity, since hey, I was already on a roll, right?  My husband and I blocked both her and my Dad.  On phones and email.  Later, I blocked my oldest brother (long story but he's a flying monkey).  Yesterday, my husband got an email from my second oldest brother, he is now blocked.  Weird thing is he has never emailed my husband, ever.  We're pretty sure my second oldest brother thus got my husband's email address from my Mom.  Blocking every family member that I perceive to be a problem for me, without any explanation...I don't know why, but this made me feel a huge relief yesterday, like finally, I am at peace.  The fact that my husband did it too, for me?  huge.  I have Blocked all the problems from my life.  LOL

I have no idea if this was merely symbolic, or if this is a permanent peaceful feeling I'm having that will continue.  I really hope the feeling continues.  For once in a very long time, I feel at peace. I feel as if I've gotten the toxicity out.  Out of My Life.

I was smiling and preparing for our Christmas vacation after that last block.  Taking care of me.  For the first time in a lonnnnggg time (maybe ever) I am looking forward to Christmas this year.

I hope you find some peace too.

b

[WalkbyFaith]

Hello again - thank you all for your thoughtful and helpful responses, and I apologize for not checking back in again sooner.

The topic finally came up (as I've been anticipating/dreading it for weeks now) when we were on a video chat with my parents for Christmas. She stated that they (her and my dad) would like to come visit us in February or March. Since it was Christmas and it was just me and my toddler chatting with them, all I said in reply was, "I'll need to talk with Husband about it." She tried several times to press the issue and discuss dates, etc, but I stuck with "I'll talk to Husband" and changed the subject. My H & I have agreed that he needs to be present when we have boundary conversations with her, knowing that I tend to turn back into scared-little-girl when she gets upset with me.

So now I have a twofold decision: 1) whether to approach this with a phone call or an email? and 2) to keep it to a temporary "this isn't a good time to visit" or go all the way to the truth of "we don't want you visiting us here because it's an unhealthy situation.." etc or however it would be worded.

Husband and I both have seasonal jobs that are very busy in the summers, so she knows that summer visits are out of the question, so if I can put her off for now, it'll give us until at least Sept/Oct before it comes up again.

Since this can't possibly be her fault, she has to assume it's my fault and so assumes things that are not true.

Having a mother with BPD is a life long sorrow.

Yes and yes. Grateful to have this group who understands so well!

I was just wondering if the hives, the anxiety... stress you are feeling, is it just when she visits you or do phone calls, emails, and/or texts also trigger these feelings?

I always feel stressed and emotionally drained after any conversation with her. Our visits to them are challenging for sure, but it helps that my siblings, nieces, etc are there to break up the one-on-one interaction with my mom. However, when my parents visited us last winter, it was something different. That was the first time I've had the physical stress reaction of hives. I can't put a finger on what is was, but something about having her in my space, was too much.

[zachira]

It sounds like you are getting to a point where you can no longer tolerate having your mother visit you. Trying to explain to her that you can't have her in your home would only be the right response if that is what feels right for you and you can tolerate her reactions which no matter what you do are going to likely result in her trying to dump her intolerable feelings on to you. Your husband is a wonderful support and his decision to be present for the difficult conversations with your mother is exactly what you need. Your observation that the worst is when you are alone with your mother is what so many us on PSI have experienced with our BPD mothers. When my mother with BPD was alive, I would make every effort to have people around that she wanted to look good in front of and would not act out in front of, and it worked like a charm when it was possible to do so. Do be kind to yourself no matter what you decide. It is so hard to not feel guilty when we have to set difficult boundaries with a mother with BPD, and she does not understand nor do most people who do not have a mother with BPD.

[Couscous]

What about taking a baby step and using omicron as an excuse? This variant sure has me feeling much more nervous about my kids catching Covid since it’s so much more transmissible. I can almost guarantee you that your mother will suspect that this is just a pretext and as such, she will get the message that you are beginning to flex your boundary muscles, so this could be a good warm up for both of you.

[WalkbyFaith]

   So I wrote out a clear explanation to my uBPD mom that this spring will not be a good time to schedule a visit, as due to some life circumstances (that she is aware of) we will be quite busy from now until our summer/seasonal jobs starting, both with work stuff as well as social/personal priorities, and I stated "for our family's health and needs in this season, it's not a good time to schedule a visit."

Her response (in a text reply) was predictably angry and she even used exact wording I expected her to use. Now I am trying to figure out how to respond. To summarize key points, she told me

a) that I'm being incredibly selfish
b) I'm choosing my social life over my son and his grandparents
c) he NEEDS a relationship with his grandparents
d) that I've held them (my FOO) at arms length for years and pushed them all away
e) that I've devastated her and everyone else in the family

I'm trying to formulate a reply and to resist the temptation to pick her message apart and argue each point (I know that is useless and also, that's the way she plays so I want to rise above that). To communicate that I do not intend to keep my son from her but to stand firm in our boundary to not have her visit this year. My stomach is actually churning from the stress of this. Any encouragement and/or tips for responding are appreciated.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Why do you feel a need to respond?

I have just recently wrote something to my mother about decreasing visits. I decided they would happen on my own time.

What I did, for my own sanity, is put all the texts/message on messenger she sends me in SPAM, so that I get to decide when I look at them. And I do it only when I feel strong enough. I just don't want her intruding on my mental health when I am with my children and texts from her do that to me.

In response to my email, she basically... Wrote something that meant she was cutting ties or something. But very subtle. I just didn't pick up and ignored it. And I wrote later if she wanted us to call her (like I had already offered in my letter) and she is giving me silent treatment and I am NOT engaging.

What I mean is... You don't even have to answer any of the mean things she tells you because : they are not about you. They are about her and her trauma.

So you can decide, if you want, to just not answer. Or you could say something along the line of we can talk when you are calmer. Yes, she will explode BUT again, it is HER decision to explode. You are not the one making her explode, she does it to herself.

Don't feel guilty about your boundaries, you need them for your own health. Don't feel like you have to engage either. You don't have to. You can decide to ignore what she says.

If you really feel like answering and decreasing the escalation, I personnally use non violent communication basis with my own uBPDm. I validate her feelings by saying thing like :" I understand your need to be a grandmother, I know you are hurt and angry and I know you love you grandchildren. On my end, I am concerned about the emotional intensity of our relationship. I need stability and I think the best way to achieve that is to put some emotional distance between us. I love you, and I am doing this in order to preserve our relationship. " Something like that.. validating but then firm boundaries remain in place. I try not to engage in fighting or justifying myself because it just doesn't help. It took me a whole month to come up with three paragraphs !

[Riv3rW0lf]

I just wanted to clarify that the reason I asked why you felt a need to respond is because I try to ask myself this same question everytime my uBPDm writes me something. I feel compelled to answer, but I often don't have to... Because when she is in crisis mode, no answer will do, so why would I answer? If the response is: it's for me because I really need to express myself, then I think a bit longer.

Having a clear picture of your objective and your needs, I believe, will help you in finding your own words, without reacting.

[beatricex]

To summarize key points, she told me

a) that I'm being incredibly selfish
b) I'm choosing my social life over my son and his grandparents
c) he NEEDS a relationship with his grandparents
d) that I've held them (my FOO) at arms length for years and pushed them all away
e) that I've devastated her and everyone else in the family

Oh boy, so predictable Walkbyfaith, and this sounds exactly like and how my BPD mom would have reacted.

Let's break it down.

You are incredibly selfish = I am hurt and hurting.  Your words hurt me.  Since this was not your intent, to hurt her, but to salvage your own sanity, please be kind on yourself here.
You are choosing your social life?  What the heck?  Since when does she have a lens into that?  wild guess, gaslighting tactic and kind of funny.  Picture yourself dancing around with those hives, ya, you really want to see people right now, that's why you're here posting about it (gaff, just really please ignore that comment)

He Needs a relationship with his grandparents.  baloney.  sadly, this exact thinking is why I choose not to have kids, my mom was that know it all too.  I was very very fearful of her and "Grandparents have rights!" like talk, I expected it.  As a result I poured myself into my career which she totally undermines.  I'm sure she wouldn't have thought I was sucessful at parenting either, so again, discard as hogwash!  Next error in thinking?

You held them at arms length and pushed them away?  holy crap, my mom used to say this to me all the time as a teenager, that i was becoming a "hermit".  Projection, totally b.s., arms length?  ya the one with hives all over it is holding up a NO signal lady, get over it and yourself.  Glad she heard you at least...

Devastated everyone?  please. If you had that kind of power, you'd be a secret weapon.  We could market that sh!t and send you in to destroy people's enemies.

hope I made you laugh

OK, now that out of the way.  Let's work on your mommy, adult response.  I just had to take care of little girl walkbyfaith first.


 

[Notwendy]

I vote for not responding to those accusations.

This is a typical ( she's victim, you are the persecutor) response. You defending these accusations is adding fuel to the fire- if they aren't true, you don't have to defend them.

She can think what she thinks- you can't control that- but her thinking something doesn't make them true.

A helpful exercise for me is to imagine I have been accused of something untrue and so untrue it makes no sense.

Imagine your mother has accused you of being a pink elephant. Would you feel you need to respond to that, to try to make her understand that you aren't a pink elephant? Or would you think that's just strange. You know for certain that her thinking you are a pink elephant doesn't mean you are one and you don't feel emotionally upset by this because you know for certain, you are not an elephant. That's a boundary- you know that you are a human and someone thinking you are an elephant doesn't change that.

So now, come back to these accusations of being an elephant.

a) that I'm being incredibly selfish- you aren't selfish by standing up for yourself and your family. She's thinking of her needs, not yours-- ELEPHANT
b) I'm choosing my social life over my son and his grandparents- nope ELEPHANT
c) he NEEDS a relationship with his grandparents - nobody needs an abusive relationship - ELEPHANT.
d) that I've held them (my FOO) at arms length for years and pushed them all away - and you have your reasons, so yes, but you know why.
e) that I've devastated her and everyone else in the family- that is her choice to be devastated. You are not responsible for her feelings. ELEPHANT.


Such accusations are a form of inviting you into the drama. You can not change her mind. If you feel you need to respond, validate her feelings but not the accusations. Look up JADE - this is drama.

Say "I am sorry you feel this way but this is my decision" and repeat it if she continues and disengage from the discussion as much as you can.