Ongoing conflict with Mom + entire FoO

[WalkbyFaith]

Hello community. I so appreciate all of you and everything I've learned here in the past couple of years! I've gleaned valuable insight just this week reading your posts!

So, a couple months ago I posted asking for advice on telling my uBPDmom that we don't want her to come visit this spring. The update is: I sent that message and got back a reactionary rapid-fire series of texts saying things like, "This is not okay," "This is the last straw,"  "That's completely selfish," "You hate us," and of all things, accusing me of putting my social life ahead of my son's best interests (his best interests being, in her opinion, spending time with his grandparents).

I only responded with a brief message that I was prioritizing my family's health and needs.
She came back with the same old story it's been for years: that I've pushed my family away, rejected them all, hurt everyone, and that I'm a selfish and judgemental person.

This time, I decided it was time to lay it down and tell her that my problem is not with anyone else in the family, only with HER. I was at a point where I was completely DONE with this sob-story of accusation toward me that has literally been going on for 8 years. So I was more honest with her than I've ever been, that the problem is solely between me and her.

Surprisingly, she didn't act too surprised by that. But long story short, we've still been messaging back and forth about our relationship, mostly focused on the past and childhood (even back into her childhood), and still going round and round about her accusations of me (being judgmental, disappointing the family, etc). I am trying to minimize the arguing as much as possible because I recognize that it's pointless with her. However there are a couple more things that I need to tell her so I am working on composing one more message -- mainly to communicate that the problems and the reason I asked her not to come visit is not just about my childhood trauma, but about current unhealthy patterns that she doesn't even recognize.

Question:: suggestions on how to word that? What I have so far on that point is:
"The past is only part of the picture. It’s the past. It can’t be changed or explained, only forgiven, and I’m trying hard to complete that journey. But like I said in one of my first messages: “It goes well beyond childhood into patterns still present today.” The fact remains that there are still unhealthy things now, and those are a big part of why we need to have boundaries in place – included why we’ve limited our time there and said no to a visit this spring. I’m struggling with whether it’s my place, as your daughter, to tell you specific things I see in your life. Or if I need to just stop at – there is more in your life that’s unhealthy that has nothing to do with [her diagnosed disease] and those things make it difficult and unhealthy for me to be around you."

Thoughts? How would you word it differently?

Besides this ongoing difficult conversation with my mom, there's also been communication with one of my sisters that has been a mess, too. Maybe I'll start a different thread about that since it's kind of a different topic. The whole FOO is just so tangled with my mom it makes relationships with any of them complicated.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I find it hard when someone asks about wording, if only because I think you have to express what YOU need to express...

All this to say: I think your text is respectful, and firm. I feel you are being assertive, without being hurtful. And I think it is a fair way to say things to someone who is sick.

I am like my stepmother when I had her read my own letter, I just want to make sure you express yourself in your own words. I think your letter should carry your own colors. And I think we have to stop censoring ourselves... I am not saying that you do, but I know I do, if only because my mother terrorizes me when she doesn't use pity against me. I am still stuck in that circle to keep the anger in while making sure she will not kill herself if I say something that hurt her. So hard to say what I truly want to say, and so I tiptoe around the truth, every. Time.

In the end, while our mothers are sick, they are all different. You know yours best.

I am sorry I am not being more helpful, it truly is out of respect for your words and the expression of your self.

[Notwendy]

Maybe your mother is different from mine, but to carry on a conversation about our relationship would be a futile circular argument with mine. I would not even attempt it.

This kind of attempt assumes the possibility that the relationship can be improved by such discussions, that BPD mother would actually be able to "see" your point of view and consider it. For me, if this kind of thing were possible, it would have happened already. People who have empathy, people who have the ability to do their part in improving a relationship- people who are able to have accountability for their actions, don't continue to behave like our BPD mothers over decades.

I too do not base my assumptions on the way my mother behaved in the past. It's the dysfunctional dynamics that are here today- because she has a disorder, she has BPD. It's not something that only happened a long time ago.

I was in the difficult position of telling my mother I didn't want her to move near me. I knew ahead of time that she could not even fathom that her behavior had anything to do with her. There is only one possibility that she can accept and that is that I am to blame.

The Karpman triangle helps explain this. Your mother is in Victim mode. You are the Persecutor. When you try to relate how you have been mistreated- you are suggesting that she might be the Persecutor. This doesn't fit with Victim perspective. If your mother is like mine, she is not able to see this. Victim perspective is free of accountability. You do not blame the victim. If I were to approach my mother with a conversation like this, the likely response is that she'd get angry at me.

Her response to telling her this was predictably angry and cruel. She felt hurt. I didn't want to hurt her feelings. I have never wanted to cause her any distress. However, the other choice would have been a very difficult and emotionally abusive situation for me and I didn't think I could handle it.

I have had to have boundaries before and become the "bad guy" to her and her circle of family and friends. For her to not have any blame for this, I have to be the one who is wrong. Trying to prove otherwise has been futile. This kind of discussion is JADE - and it often is not effective.

I don't see anything wrong with your email if you feel there's a chance it might work. If you do send it and get the same circular response from her, consider you may be in a circular argument. You may need to accept that to her, you are the one causing the issues. It's not possible to change what someone else thinks. Rather than try to show you are the good person you know you are, consider that how she chooses to see you doesn't change this.

[Methuen]

I can only speak to what would happen if I shared this message with my mom.  I don’t know you or your mom so I can’t speak to that. 

If I shared your message (or one like it) with my mom, it would blow up in my face , for all the reasons I listed in the thread I started titled “my takaways and what I have learned”.  I wouldn’t try this with my mom because quite simply, it would make things worse.  But that’s my mom, not yours.

I understand the need to have a voice, share your experience, and hope the pwBPD (mom) can hear you out, reflect on what you said, learn from it, and work to make the relationship better for both of you. 

But my bpd mom isn’t capable of that.  It’s not that she willingly chooses not too, its that she can’t. Parts of her brain stopped developing because of trauma in her childhood.  As a result, she doesn’t have the rational thinking skills to be able to work through the relationship issue.  Her victim perspective would paint me all black and I would be attacked as the persecutor. 

But you know your mom best.  I hope that whatever you decide to do goes well for you.  Let us know how it goes.

[beatricex]

I will give it a try.  I like direct, and I like to make it more about me than her (what I want vs what she isn't, if this makes sense?).  If this doesn't fit, please disregard.

Mom, I am working hard on forgiveness for the past, and I’m proud of myself, for trying hard to complete that journey.  I am choosing health now, and boundaries  – limiting time spent doing things I don't want to do, why I said no to a visit this spring. I’m struggling with whether it’s my place, as your daughter, to tell you specific things I see in your life. Or if I need to just stop at – there is more in your life that’s unhealthy that has nothing to do with [her diagnosed disease] and those things make it difficult and unhealthy for me to be around you.

Dislaimer:  I have gone no contact with my mom, so I guess this has that "already decided" tone to it?

[Notwendy]

I tried the "make it about me" approach, and while it was better than make it about her, it was not comprehensible to her. It didn't result in any understanding. Her response was a rapid series of replies " you had better tell me why you feel that way, I need detail" I need to know exactly what the problem is"

I got rattled and shared a bit too much and then caught myself. Any more information would be used to interrogate, verbally attack. So I stopped. I regretted sharing even the small amount I did.

If I have any difficulty being around my mother, it can not possibly be because of her, so even a "make it about me" explanation results in her feeling attacked and verbally defending herself. Her only possible acceptable conclusion is that, if there's anything wrong with our relationship it has to be because of me.

So saying things such as " I am choosing my own well being" just does not compute to her. In her world, I must be completely stark raving mad to have decided this, and so she wants information to support her thinking.

Any kind of information that is personal won't register with her. The only thing that does is a boundary: the answer is no. And maybe a brief explanation like "I don't think I can manage that" but even that was too much.

I have also found that any kind of emotional content email explanation like the one Beatricex suggested gets printed out and placed in a file- and she refers to that when she wishes to bring it back up. This is not because there's anything wrong with that reply- Beatricex - it's very understandable to me, but to someone like my BPD mother, she can't see the intent of it- because she doesn't see us as having needs or feelings. That's a boundary issue for her.

[beatricex]

good points NotWendy

Also, to be clear, I myself went no contact exactly one year ago almost to this day.  I didn't write this kind of a paragraph, or even say anything, for the exact reasons you cite NonWendy.  She can't see or hear me as separate, and then it feels like engulfment.  I was hoping maybe someone else had a sort of reasonable BPD mom, and that this kind of communication might work?  Probably not

So I have never felt an urge in the last year to write anything resembling the above because as others have mentioned it goes circular, backfires and my mind literally goes blank too, when she goes on the warpath.

Yesterday, I actually had a little cry about my mother.  Her situation, me needing her my whole life, but not actually having her available as a mother.  I thought about what it would be like to have a mom to talk to, to negotiate with, and to navigate life with.  I guess, since I have given up all those hopes (therapy) I am just still left with a little grief.  sadness, guilt and lonliness

I felt those feelings fully yesterday (editing what you wrote above WalkbyFaith, helped me do that).  And then I let those uncomfortable feelings go because it's a goal I have for myself to do that quickly.  Feelings are not bad or wrong, they just are.  Today's a new day, and I want it to be a good day.

hugs all, we are doing hard work
 
b

[Notwendy]

I do understand  beatricex-

Although I am low contact, I also gave up any ideas that my BPD mother would be "a mother". To her, I am basically useful. She doesn't know me as a separate human being with my own thoughts and feelings. I'd not write an email like that because it would be no use.

I also feel sad at times about the fact that it's not possible to have a relationship with her as a mother, but she's not capable of that.

Hugs!

[zachira]

The big challenge can be to give up on having your feelings respected because the disordered person/people in your life do not have the capacity for empathy and to validate your point of view. Short affirmative statements that set boundaries in place which you will not allow to be violated can be the most effective, though it stills hurts to be abused and accused of things that have nothing to do with you and are all about the person with BPD's need to dump their dysregulated emotions onto you.

[WalkbyFaith]

Hello again everyone - thank you so much for your replies and thoughts; my apologies for not checking back in until now.

So my mom has been more receptive than I expected in this ongoing conversation to specifically things about the past. She recognizes that she wasn't healthy for much of my childhood -- either because of working through her own trauma/abuse or because of her physical chronic illness. But those things become the excuse and explanation for everything, for "making her the way she was" and "changing her personality" -- there's no acknowledgment that something could have actually been her fault. She remains the victim always.

That being said, I did go ahead and send her the paragraph above. My H and I felt that someone needed to tell her that there are still unhealthy issues in her life now -- not just in the past, and not just because of her physical illness. No one else in her life will tell her that and I felt a sense of responsibility, I guess...

In reply, she says that I can't really know the patterns in her life because I'm not around enough to see, and I'm just "judging from a distance." She says she asked everyone else if they saw unhealthy patterns in her life (my whole FOO lives under one roof except me, and I live on the other side of the country), and "no one has any idea what you're talking about." She says that if there are specific things I need to say to her "to heal our relationship" then I should just say it.

But what Notwendy said really resonated with my experience --

I tried the "make it about me" approach, and while it was better than make it about her, it was not comprehensible to her. It didn't result in any understanding. Her response was a rapid series of replies " you had better tell me why you feel that way, I need detail" I need to know exactly what the problem is"

I got rattled and shared a bit too much and then caught myself. Any more information would be used to interrogate, verbally attack. So I stopped. I regretted sharing even the small amount I did.

If I have any difficulty being around my mother, it can not possibly be because of her, so even a "make it about me" explanation results in her feeling attacked and verbally defending herself. Her only possible acceptable conclusion is that, if there's anything wrong with our relationship it has to be because of me.

So now it's the question of whether I go ahead and give her the specifics she's asking for (sort of)? I know she likely won't hear or respond well in this moment, but maybe it would plant seeds for the future? I want to have faith and hope that maybe sometime she (or someone else in the family) could recognize the unhealth and move toward change...

[WalkbyFaith]

Oh! and since I sent that message about unhealthy patterns and she said she doesn't know what I'm talking about... she is panicking and making up scenarios that it might be, things she might have done that offended me (with plenty of excuses and explanations for them), putting words in my mouth that I never actually said (ie, that I said my sister shouldn't be living with them and should go get a job instead of staying home with her babies...which never even crossed my mind).

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hope... What keeps us alive, and what keeps pulling us back to our abuser...

Re-reading Notwendy's share, I can only agree. They just turn it back on us later on  

I also sometimes hope that my mother will someday understand, make amends... And I think she kinda did once, but the abuse never stopped. It started again as soon as she thought she held me strongly in her grasp. And so I had to escape again.

I just don't think they CAN understand.

Any attempts to justify and explain more gives them power over you, because you are still engaging...

My thoughts anyway...

I think we have to grieve the relationship we will never have, and then we can truly let go, and abandon even our need for any kind of recognition, of validation. Because this validation might just never come, and we can't keep waiting on it to start our life.

We can grieve with or without cutting contact.

[Goldcrest]

Hey WalkbyFaith  , I have to agree with Notwendy

This kind of attempt assumes the possibility that the relationship can be improved by such discussions, that BPD mother would actually be able to "see" your point of view and consider it. For me, if this kind of thing were possible, it would have happened already. People who have empathy, people who have the ability to do their part in improving a relationship- people who are able to have accountability for their actions, don't continue to behave like our BPD mothers over decades.

For the last 4 years I have had almost daily contact with my mother after a long period of No then Low contact. In those 4 years we have had heated discussions about our relationship and they never end on a positive. For me personally I think I was chasing hope and my mother chasing drama! My mother loved those kind of interactions because they contained information to use against me and to shore up her victim status. If your mum wanted to heal your relationship she would own her abusive behaviour and would not look to defend it but find ways for you to move forward together and repair. My mum used to go to my dad and brother for validation that she wasn't a "bad mother". The very fact that our mothers are seeking reassurance tells us they don't want to believe or own the difficult parts of their personalities. They are not worried about the pain they might have caused us, they are worried about their self image.

My only advice would be check in with yourself, if these exchanges are making you anxious, causing you to spend a lot of time thinking about your mum, at a cost to your mental health...then it really isn't worth it. 

[Notwendy]

Hey WalkbyFaith  

For the last 4 years I have had almost daily contact with my mother after a long period of No then Low contact. In those 4 years we have had heated discussions about our relationship and they never end on a positive. For me personally I think I was chasing hope and my mother chasing drama! My mother loved those kind of interactions because they contained information to use against me and to shore up her victim status. If your mum wanted to heal your relationship she would own her abusive behaviour and would not look to defend it but find ways for you to move forward together and repair. My mum used to go to my dad and brother for validation that she wasn't a "bad mother". The very fact that our mothers are seeking reassurance tells us they don't want to believe or own the difficult parts of their personalities. They are not worried about the pain they might have caused us, they are worried about their self image.

This resonated with me. My mother can not fathom why I would want to keep a distance from her. I think just about any time I have tried the approach of sharing my feelings with her, she has somehow catalogued them to bring up later in some hurtful way no matter how many years ago I may have said it. I understand she wants validation that she has been a "good mother" from her children. Our not wanting to be close to her doesn't meet that need. It doesn't go along with that expectation.

I wish I could give her that. It's not about what happened when I was a child so much as that she's abusive now. I do visit her some time and during my interactions with her, I am sometimes on the verge of tears with sadness and frustration at what she says and does. She's verbally and emotionally abusive and it's hard to be around that.

[Goldcrest]

 Notwendy Yes, I think the final lightbulb moment for me was realising that it wasn't about the past anymore, horrendous as my childhood was, it was about the here and now. As you know after my dad died back in October last, my mother has behaved appallingly. I realised that all the stress and anxiety I was feeling wasn't about my childhood pain but that she was still up to her damaging and abusive ways. I was just gaslighting myself because I felt bad for her after dad died. When I found myself losing my temper so suddenly, and often, I knew I was holding so much negative emotion inside of me I would literally erupt. I also knew this was only serving to give my mother reason to hate and vilify me.

[CryingGame]

WalkByFaith,

I am so appreciative to read about your hard work on this and read your and members' responses. So much to learn from each other, amazing how it is all so similar.

So so similar, the insanity and pain...the dynamics. Wow.

Congratulations on stating your need and protecting your family from an unwanted visit. It seems you have hope in the conversation you're having with her and she did acknowledge her unhealthy behavior when you were younger.

Is it like 2 steps forward and then step(s) back or do you feel you are making progress?

What about what Goldcrest and NotWendy posted, can your Mom see your point of view, is there any progress? What is the cost to your mental health?

I once told my mom no, she couldn't visit my son and I when I was on a business trip 200 miles away from her and she wanted to come. Work was very stressful and there was not way I could have her there on top of it. It was SO HARD to do.

If only they'd work on themselves, have introspection and accountability. I'm very grateful I have that as a parent!

Hugs!

[WalkbyFaith]

I really appreciate all of your thoughtful responses. It's so helpful to have the support here in this group.

The exchanges have continued - as of yet I haven't felt the freedom within myself to call it quits, but I think I am almost there. I took the risk of sharing with my mom some of the things I find upsetting/concerning in her life and in our relationship currently, and it has (as expected) resulted in a tirade of self-defense, blameshifting, gaslighting, and playing the victim.

In addition, two of my siblings (the 3rd hasn't spoken to me in a couple of years already) have made it clear that they stand with my mom and see me as the black sheep. They have both told me they're not interested in relationship with me until I can "fix things with mama." My sister who was my best friend growing up actually told me that she doesn't like the person I've become (which is totally unfair because she barely knows me anymore)! This was the first she's spoken up since this round of conflict began, and her message was a gut-punch. And my father, as always, is silent in the background, doing whatever he needs to do to keep my mom happy.

If your mum wanted to heal your relationship she would own her abusive behaviour and would not look to defend it but find ways for you to move forward together and repair. My mum used to go to my dad and brother for validation that she wasn't a "bad mother". The very fact that our mothers are seeking reassurance tells us they don't want to believe or own the difficult parts of their personalities. They are not worried about the pain they might have caused us, they are worried about their self image.

So very true. I keep looking for signs of ownership and repentance, and there is none.

I'm so hurt by all of it... I'm not going to respond to her latest word-vomit of defense. There's no point in continuing to argue, I have finally reached that conclusion for myself. I don't want to be the one to cut all contact, but I think what I'm ready to do is set some strict boundaries and see how she/they respond to that.

Examples/ideas:
-We can have conversations that allow us to get to know each other better and repair/build relationships in the present. I will not participate in any further conversations that are focused on telling me things I’ve done wrong or ways I’ve offended you. There will be no more demands for apologies or reminding me of past mistakes.
-You may not try to make me feel bad for the amount of time we spend with our friends, with H's family, or anyone else. It is our right to invest in mutually-encouraging relationships.
-In person visits will be considered based on how conversations are going and the level of trust present.

Depending on how they respond to these kinds of boundaries will determine whether we stay in LC or go NC... thoughts? Am I on the right track? 

[PearlsBefore]

I came in here with a wry smile thinking how everyone I've known who uses "family of origin" in casual speech has a very similar experience to my own - yet still I'm somehow surprised reading your intro post with just how similarly circumstance can bring us. Solidarity brother (sister?), you're not in this alone - we understand and can deduce any parts you are required to withhold. I hope, especially for your son's sake, that this situation gets better with time rather than worse.

[beatricex]

hi again WalkbyFaith,
Really like your examples. In my mind I had a similar set of criteria (this was before last year when I was still in contact)
Re: we can have conversations that allow us to get to know each other...
I said to myself, "I have a garden, my Mom has a garden, she will come to my house and admire my garden, it will be lovely"

What really happened:  she came to my house and seemed jealous, didn't even look at my garden which I had been sending pictures of to her for at least a year...instead she explained to me she had a COVID mask her friend made her, in detail (I really didn't care).  grrrr.  No ability to meet any sort of committment, no peace truce.  Noted!

Re:  you will not try to make me feel bad...for having friends (slightly paraphrased from what you wrote), for spending time with my husband.  I said to myself "my Mom is really going to love that my husband and I are doing great - and  in the past she's made one comment to him that she's really glad I found him, he is "the one" for me.  Instead of that expectation I had materilizing, that this nice comment or one like it would continue, on a visit to my house, she blindsided me with, "hey B, I contacted your childhood friend..."(ok this was weird), and "Oh, I do not communicate with HER."  What the hell, this was my best friend from Highschool and u contacted her, why?  To tell me you don't like her?  To insult me?  still shaking my head why she went to all that trouble to just play a mind game with me.  (I did reach out to my friend, it was akward but I guess I wanted her to know I was sorry my mom contacted her - This was not a friend my Mom cared for at all).  What happened to - she is so happy me and my husband found each other?  mixed messages.  more games.  ugh.  no consistency, this is the worst part of having a BPD mom i think.  they can draw you back in with kind words, then wam out of the blue they're upsetting you again.  you never know who you're going to get.

Finally, In person visits will be considered...
I thought "she will respect this bounday, they will only show up when invited."  Reality?  They stopped by whenever it was convenient for them.  Pretending I didn't say "call ahead, make sure we want company.." Oh ya, a person with a Huge fear of abandonment hears this "I am your mother.  I will come when it suits me. I am your Mother."  Considered?  She probably had a good laugh when I said that.

Now I am no contact.  The only thing I really had an urge to say in the end wasn't to my mother at all.  I wanted to tell my oldest brother, calmly, "I think Mom's mentally ill."  That wasn't for him, that was for me, so I could be clear about it, speak my truth and use my voice.  That was a need I had, after all these years, I wanted to tell someone in my family calmly and without finger pointing and not in a mean way.  Bucket list item?   I think so.  I can check it off my list - I got that one off my chest.

Expectations are a terrible thing to have.

Getting peace about having had them?  golden

 
b

[Riv3rW0lf]

Like B, my first thought reading your boundaries list is to lower your expectations. Have them, but don't hold too much hope that she will indeed be able to keep in line with them.

Part of me believe they sometimes try to respect our boundaries... I've seen my mom do things inappropriately with my daughter. And I looked at here and she would say: no? Too much? (she was almost crying telling my three years old just how much she missed her), and she would stop. So, part of her knows, and part of her tries to keep herself in check.. But it is just too hard for her to be consistent. She starts resenting those boundaries, and as the minutes pass (literally minutes), the competition for love starts. Now I am not a daughter anymore, I become a potential source of harm, and the cycle begins again.

The thing is .. she is who she is. The attention seeking, the subtil critics, the subtil competition, the prying for information to use against me later on... Some people think it is a choice, a conscious thing, but I am starting to believe those are the things that kept her alive through her own trauma, and she will never be able to let go of them. She hurts people before they can hurt her, even when they were never even going to hurt her.

And so... Boundaries are good for you. To know who you are, what you stand for. But in terms of them actually following it, it won't happen without consequences, and there will be crisis. As long as you are prepared to stand your ground and deal with it, then in the long run, maybe it will work out.

The other thing is... I know I personally carry too much bagage. Too many traumas she left on me. And even the smallest critics have the effect of an 18-wheelers on my heart. And so... Before I can ever even think of applying healthy boundaries, I think I first need to detach myself and make sure she cannot hurt me anymore... But this is me. Even with firm boundaries, she knows all my weaknesses and how to use them. I always end up eroded by her constant subtil critics... And so... Yeah... Boundaries are great, as long as we are actually strong enough in our self to uphold them and stand our grounds I guess !

I root for you though. I wish I could do it. I wish I could have the strength to keep contact with healthy boundaries. But she still terrorizes me too much and low/no contact right now seems to be the only way for me to truly heal.

[WalkbyFaith]

Thank you for the words of advice.
Honestly, I think my hope is that in response to my boundaries, THEY will be the ones to decide on NC. Or they will respond so poorly to my boundaries that I'll not feel bad going NC. Either way, I think I'm looking at this list of boundaries as one step closer to NC.

I think my mother truly believes we are "working on our issues" by having this conversation. When in reality it's just her defending herself and telling me how terrible me and my H are. If this is what she sees as having good conversation and working on things, then there's not much hope of getting anywhere. 

In any case -- I agree with you all, these boundaries are not likely to be followed. Even if they do agree to try, I know there will be failure. But more likely, I'm anticipating they will not even be willing to try to live within them.