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Caretaking - What is it all about?
Margalis Fjelstad, PhD
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Author Topic: opinion no you don’t have to be codependent  (Read 1100 times)
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« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2022, 10:58:18 AM »

" A "label" is not a criticism but a way to get help for what is interfering with your happiness."

I'd like to push back on this a little bit. I think it depends on what the label is and how it's given and taken. Labels are necessary to organize and characterize things, but they can also be used to limit and stereotype. Words can have connotations beyond their dictionary definitions, and to make matters worse, from what I learned on this thread, apparently there is no universally medically accepted definition of codependent. Our take on this word may vary with our own experiences, education, social class and geography. Where I come from, it's kind of negative.

To build on the sore throat example. A person with a sore throat who is diagnosed with strep isn't called a "strepper."   It doesn't become part of one's identity, in the way " Co-Dependent" or "Borderline" seem to. A severely physically disabled person at one time would have been called a "cripple" but the disability community and eventually the rest of society rejected that term as offensive, I believe in part because it has a devaluing connotation.   (On the other hand  there was a writer, Andre Dubus, who was confined to a wheel chair, who wrote about how he preferred the term "cripple" because he felt other terms were merely dishonest  euphemisms.  So, I know this is complicated.) 

The negative connotation is how I feel about "Co-Dependent." First of all I think it's an ugly word that just sounds bad. Second, for me (and this is just my uninformed man on the street perspective of someone  who probably watched one too many episodes of Dr. Phil) it conjures up  images of someone with no self -esteem who protects an alcoholic from losing their job or going to jail. While we all do have to work on our own issues for sure, I think the term may push too much in that direction.

To me, being labeled with  the term "Co-dependent" itself would tend to interfere with my happiness. If that label provides us and tools and strategies to make us happier, then lets run with those tools and strategies.  I just wish there was a better word and a clearer definition. In the meantime, I'm rolling with "Empath."     Maybe we don't have the right to pick our own labels. Maybe we do? Getting back to Hand On's original point, I don't think one has to be or become  a "co-dependent" to be in a long term relationship with a "borderline."   
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« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2022, 11:22:52 AM »

There’s a difference between *self* and *behavior* and whether or not we want a label is irrelevant to that point. A clinically-trained outsider can observe that someone is behaving in a codependent way, and labeling that behavior is a way of communicating an observed pattern. However, the *map* is not the *territory* and I don’t think anyone is advocating for making a descriptor part of one’s self identity. Most of us here don’t have clinical training, but we’ve often refined our observation skills through noticing repeated patterns.

What’s most important, more than identifying with a label or not, is recognizing one’s own behavioral patterns which repeatedly exacerbate dysfunctional relationship patterns.

Yes, people with BPD tend to be disrupters. They do things that emotionally healthy people are unlikely to do. They’re often very difficult to live with or be with in a romantic relationship. That’s a given.

The question is why are we here? Why do we read countless books on difficult people? Why do we persist in relationships where our partners act like immature children, bullies, predators, or at best generally grumpy and ill-mannered?

What’s our part in the drama? That’s what we are seeking to explore and that’s where our power lies. We cannot change their behavior, but much in the relationship dynamic can be changed by how we respond to them.

Let’s face it. Some people with BPD are flat out awful, immoral, ruthless, dangerous, evil. Some people without BPD are all these things too. What keeps us persisting in relationships with people who abuse us in ways that we are ashamed to admit, and cover up, and only disclose on an anonymous forum?

That, to me, is worth examining, whether or not we want a label.

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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2022, 10:13:04 PM »

That may be true for you, but it's probably not a broad truth.  Smiling (click to insert in post)


Fair enough, I get what you are saying and definitely agree with the “N” as an ENTJ

The one thing that seems common here is that co-dependency seems to require 2 parts, the intuition combined with the action, the “what we do” with said intuition. 

The thing about mental illness is that sometimes, the victims do more introspection and work when sometimes maybe it’s just - F**k, roll the dice and risk snake eyes, keep going and keep growing. Roll again ;)
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« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2022, 10:16:04 PM »

Is it not simply unconditional love?


Unconditional love and unconditional acceptance of actions are very different.  

I will always unconditionally love my children. If they don’t brush their teeth, they’re gonna have to start or suffer the consequences.  

LOOSELY - Love could be seen as the approach to the person - tolerance is the response to behaviors. It likely affects the how, how we respond and how we approached these behaviors. 
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« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2022, 10:20:47 PM »

When it comes to labeling, we might be victims of our own immaturity.

Many of us miss the point of why clinicians attach a labels to a personality struggles. The label was developed to help us diagnose a problem so that we can find solutions for it and grow.



Psychotherapy has recently (last 8-10 years) moved away from ridged diagnosis - they tend to focus on clusters and traits for treatments.  The problem is insurance and patients like a firm diagnosis. But this is becoming less common as we view humans as unique and the mind causes complex patterns of behavior

Our western cognition and ego like to divide, to create this and that. It’s been fruitful in some ways and yet caustic in others.  When we have “something” we can fee comparable with the constraints.  If you look to the eastern approach, most of mindfulness, zen and acceptance is just being present with the everything of the moment. This nature of avoiding attachement to ridged definitions seems to yield much harmony and equanimity

Most people define something so they can be or not be that something - identity.  As opposed to embracing the whole thing

.
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« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2022, 12:24:04 AM »

sometimes maybe it’s just - F**k, roll the dice and risk snake eyes, keep going and keep growing. Roll again ;)

 Smiling (click to insert in post) I've been doing this for 15 years. I know quite a few frequent flyers here that might say that's not a great idea. But, sometimes rolling the dice works out. Vegas has plenty of winners.

Here's a thought. Did you ever wonder why, from an evolutionary point of view, a broken heart is so painful?

The broken heart is so painful that we change our behavior in order to avoid repeating the experience and as a result have more of an opportunity for stable/productive mating. In the bigger scheme of things pain teaches us to be better partners.
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« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2022, 09:55:06 AM »

This topic is a tough one, for all the right reasons. I would describe myself as someone who tends to behave in a codependent manner in the context of romantic relationships, while being less that way in pretty much every other context. This really tracks pretty closely with my self-esteem issues. I feel very confident and capable at work, in my close friendships, and in my ability to take care of my responsibilities. But I have always lacked confidence when it comes to dating and relationships. That Stop Caretaking book that was referenced earlier speaks to that and it really resonated with me.

It is a very tough pill to swallow - this idea that you may be in the relationship you are in because of your own issues. I am going through a lot of self-examination around that now and finding it to be pretty painful, but I think it is an important process to go through. As others have mentioned, its unlikely that a person would partner with a pwBPD over the long term without at least some degree of codependent behavior being involved. The relationship just would not sustain itself for very long otherwise.

Where I am personally struggling a lot is with accepting that me changing my behavior is going to be deeply uncomfortable. I have only made a few real changes so far and already there has been noticeably more distance in my marriage. The intense arguing and fighting has given way to her withdrawing a  lot more, or simply finding ways to just not be at home, and that can be pretty lonely.

I think that discomfort speaks to the codependent tendencies as well - one of the unhealthiest aspects of the behavior is that it is based on a belief that I can secure love from another person by acting one way or another. It's led to me making compromises with values and my own well-being that I knew, even at the time, probably weren't great for me. But I accepted those compromises because the alternative - potentially losing the relationship - was not acceptable to me. The plain truth (at least to me), is that any time you start altering behavior in ways you don't feel good about to preserve a relationship, that's a step towards codependency.
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« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2022, 01:05:28 PM »

Smiling (click to insert in post) I've been doing this for 15 years. I know quite a few frequent flyers here that might say that's not a great idea. But, sometimes rolling the dice works out. Vegas has plenty of winners.


Reminds me of this compilation of quotes I used earlier this week in regards to work


“ The road to succes is paved with the hot asphalt of failure.

The real test is not whether you avoid this failure, because you won’t. It’s whether you let it harden or shame you into inaction, or whether you learn from it; whether you choose to persevere.

That said, never let success get to your head; never let failure get to your heart.
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