Staying until I know for sure I'm done

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Just venting and wondering if someone has any good insight into my thought process, please point out if I'm being naive and so on.

I listened to a podcast about psychological violence and of course it was very familiar to me. The woman who had been subjected to this talked about how she re-entered the relationship five times. She had nearly finished a book about the relationship and still went in one last time. The last time she realized she wasn't even in love with him anymore.

Instead of leaving just because I think it's the right choice, is it a good strategy to wait until I know for sure that I will stick to my decision no matter what. I'm thinking this point in time will be in the next 12 months, hopefully already this fall.

At the same time I'm wondering if leaving and returning is part of a process that is needed to make a decision. I am also thinking about if I could somehow prepare a plan to leave in the middle of a fight, and somehow ride that wave of clarity and not return. What would I need to prepare for that to work. My main concern being the children. Mostly them being worried about what is happening. My second biggest concern is if she gets extremely fragile.

I'm really in the phase of not being in love anymore. I tried to break up nov-2021 but failed. My feelings for her now is that I want us to get along, I want her and the kids to get along, I would want to help her cope after a possible break-up, but not get drawn back in emotionally.

Thoughts?

[15years]

Just venting and wondering if someone has any good insight into my thought process, please point out if I'm being naive and so on.

I listened to a podcast about psychological violence and of course it was very familiar to me. The woman who had been subjected to this talked about how she re-entered the relationship five times. She had nearly finished a book about the relationship and still went in one last time. The last time she realized she wasn't even in love with him anymore.

Instead of leaving just because I think it's the right choice, is it a good strategy to wait until I know for sure that I will stick to my decision no matter what. I'm thinking this point in time will be in the next 12 months, hopefully already this fall.

At the same time I'm wondering if leaving and returning is part of a process that is needed to make a decision. I am also thinking about if I could somehow prepare a plan to leave in the middle of a fight, and somehow ride that wave of clarity and not return. What would I need to prepare for that to work. My main concern being the children. Mostly them being worried about what is happening. My second biggest concern is if she gets extremely fragile.

I'm really in the phase of not being in love anymore. I tried to break up nov-2021 but failed. My feelings for her now is that I want us to get along, I want her and the kids to get along, I would want to help her cope after a possible break-up, but not get drawn back in emotionally.

Thoughts?

[orders4946]

I am in the same boat 15 years.

If you truly believe that the way to 'make sure' is to stay until you are sure, then that is the right course of action for you.  I agree that waiting for a fight is helpful because the anger and frustration will act as driving forces to see you through what will inevitably be a challenging time and you will be less concerned with their reactions.

The danger however, is that you will forget what has brought you to the point in the first place.  Almost like being in the relationship will wash away those feelings.  I wonder if this is a trait of codependence and is a reason why we have managed to tolerate the relationship for so long.  It is the conclusion I am reaching myself.

[ForeverDad]

Do you have local support such as an experienced counselor who can walk you through this?

My feelings for her now is that I want us to get along, I want her and the kids to get along, I would want to help her cope after a possible break-up, but not get drawn back in emotionally.

Your children have already noticed the differences between dad and mom.  Some of your coping strategies in the past have been subtly invalidating.  One of your first posts was that your S5 would climb into bed on your side and you'd move him to between both parents because otherwise she'd get upset.

Whether you should try a few more times until you're really ready...

This has been said many times that I don't know if there is an original quote to cite, but I remember on Star Trek the  Enterprise's engineer Scotty finally exclaimed to those on the Bridge, speaking of the Klingons trying to lure the Enterprise away from Captain Kirk and the landing party on a second false distress signal, "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me!"

How your young children may be impacted...

And for the children to see this discord all the time isn't good for them even if it's not directed at them.  Children learn by example.  If this dysfunctional example is their home life growing up, what life choices will they make seeking relationships when they're grown and gone?

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Nearly 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

The mega-dollar question is whether he will change for the better.  Stripping away all the smaller issues, what you choose to do with the marriage hinges on whether he will change.  Thus far he hasn't and that's not a good sign.  You've surely tried and tried yet it is so hard for a disordered person to get past the emotional baggage of the relationship to really listen and respond.  Would he see a counselor or therapist — a neutral professional with no emotional ties that may be able to help — and let go his Denial and Blaming, diligently apply the therapy in his life and thinking and do so over the long term?  Frankly, you've done what you can in the relationship, if he won't respond to therapy then you have to decide your future knowing he won't improve.

[Kayteelouwho]

Hello,

I did wait for the last fight, and then needed help to get out via police and other resources, I did also then go back as I that point couldn't disengage emotionally and my partner said they was going to try to get help and even with the skills on here and not J.A.D.E Things didn't change and my children was affected by what happened. But this time I slowly disengaged the rages was every 3 days down to once a week but did get worse for me for a while but that was my choice I know now I shouldn't have for my self and my children but that was just my own decision.

I think if your thinking of leaving then in some way maybe you think the realationship has ended? if you need to write a list of the reasons but do it where they can't find it and make an escape plan and tell family/friends if you need to.

Your local area should be able to help with this or on this site there is a section to help you plan. I think it was on the disengaging lesson board.

Try therapy/counselling to help you work through you decision as you will come to you own thought process and something that helps you feel calm where your most important thoughts are processed.

Sometimes staying or leaving or not can be down to our own fears of change and the loss of something we held onto.

I hope it goes well for you both on what ever you both decide.

Take care.

[Cat Familiar]

My personal feeling on those agonizing decisions of whether to stay or go is that when you’ve been repeatedly examining these thoughts, a part of you has already decided. It’s just that you haven’t got the logistics in place yet to imagine how you can make a smooth transition. And there is no such thing as a smooth transition, especially with a BPD spouse. Even in a *normal relationship* untangling a marriage involves many unforeseen and uncomfortable components.

After 15 years, you know who she is. The question is: how long do you want to live with her?

[15years]

Do you have local support such as an experienced counselor who can walk you through this?

I don't have any legal support, don't know if I need it before leaving, I trust my country's legal system more than I would trust it if I where an american, having read experiences from people on this website..

I have thought about maybe talking more directly about my desire to divorce with my therapeutic support. My biggest concerns are the emotional part of it all, at least at this stage. Maybe later when I have processed the emotional part of it more, I could possibly consult a lawyer.

Your children have already noticed the differences between dad and mom.  Some of your coping strategies in the past have been subtly invalidating.  One of your first posts was that your S5 would climb into bed on your side and you'd move him to between both parents because otherwise she'd get upset.

True, I have posted about that. My 5 yo knows very well that his mother has mood problems. I don't know how much I read into his feelings based on my own feelings, but he definitely has a lot of feelings about it, more than I would like him to have. But he stills climb into my side of the bed but I don't move him anymore, it hasn't been discussed either. But occasionally she complains something along the line that they think I'm the good guy but they don't know the full picture.

[15years]

I am in the same boat 15 years.

Thank you for commenting, it's nice on this site to communicate with this mix of experienced people and people who are in the middle of the chaos.

For me, my feelings keeps developing, if I would feel that I'm only going in a loop (ruminating?) about this decision, I would feel hopelessness and despair. I know that I'm much more ready to leave now than 6 months ago, so I wonder where I'll be 6 months forward. That gives me hope.

[15years]

I think if your thinking of leaving then in some way maybe you think the realationship has ended? if you need to write a list of the reasons but do it where they can't find it and make an escape plan and tell family/friends if you need to.

Thanks!
This is my plan now, to dive into my thoughts about divorce more for a period of time and see how my feelings develop from this.

[15years]

My personal feeling on those agonizing decisions of whether to stay or go is that when you’ve been repeatedly examining these thoughts, a part of you has already decided. It’s just that you haven’t got the logistics in place yet to imagine how you can make a smooth transition. And there is no such thing as a smooth transition, especially with a BPD spouse. Even in a *normal relationship* untangling a marriage involves many unforeseen and uncomfortable components.

After 15 years, you know who she is. The question is: how long do you want to live with her?

I think it could be a "two steps away from the relationship and one step back into it" kind of process. I have a hard time thinking about how we would get this to work anymore, I mean I'm put off by her presence.

I think I could live with her for a few months more, but I really feel that the clock is ticking. It would be the perfect timing to leave this fall.

[Notwendy]

I have thought about maybe talking more directly about my desire to divorce with my therapeutic support. My biggest concerns are the emotional part of it all, at least at this stage. Maybe later when I have processed the emotional part of it more, I could possibly consult a lawyer.

This sounds like a good idea. Whatever you decide, emotional support is helpful. It will also help you tune into your own feelings rather than the stress of the day to day relationship.

[ForeverDad]

I think I could live with her for a few months more, but I really feel that the clock is ticking. It would be the perfect timing to leave this fall.

Be forewarned that there is rarely if ever a perfect time to exit.  Maybe it will work as you plan, or maybe not.  Have alternate backup plans if the optimal one doesn't work.  One of the complications is that the closer you get to that day, the more likely she will sense enough of the changes in you that she will try to sabotage you in unexpected ways.

[15years]

What I already have to my advantage is that we own nothing together, except new but cheap furniture. We haven't got much of value that we share. We live in a medium to small sized city depending on who you ask, (population around 100 000) in a rented apartment so moving to a new rented apartment in the same city is not the biggest obstacle. I think she could stay in our current apartment. I want to be the one who moves, for many reasons.

One odd thing I have been thinking about is who will have what of the children's toys. Who decides where my kids will have their Lego for example?

FD,
How will she notice what I'm up to? She didn't notice when I took some stuff to work last time I planned to leave

[kells76]

One odd thing I have been thinking about is who will have what of the children's toys. Who decides where my kids will have their Lego for example?

If you decide to have a separate living arrangement, then that is a good question to be asking, as it shows you're thinking about what's important to the kids.

I would not necessarily try to "come to a fair agreement" about it with your W. I think I can almost guarantee that she would say "the kids toys stay at their house with me, because that's their home, and it's so selfish and self-centered of you to try to force them to leave their toys at your apartment". She will frame you as the selfish one, even though she is actually being the selfish one for not being able to gracefully let the toys be evenly split for the kids' wellbeing. So I wouldn't go there.

What you could do if you end up with two homes for the kids is model flexibility to them -- "sure buddy, of course you can take what you built here at Dad's and take it over to Mom's to show her, I see how proud of it you are". Show that you won't be the one who uses what's important to the kids to manipulate them or wind up their emotions. You won't be the guy who says "No way, these legos stay here and that's final, because this is where you live, not at Mom's".

I would let go of trying to "split up the toys" via collaboration with your W and instead focus on supporting the kids in bringing stuff back and forth, PLUS having fun going toy shopping with the kids and having some fresh stuff at your place. And then also being flexible if they want to bring the fresh stuff to Mom's. If the kids get old enough they may finally put together "why are all my toys at X house and not Y house, oh I guess it's time for me to bring some stuff over". Though it can take a while and they may need some reminders: "hey buddy, let's have you bring over that robot set today and we can work on it". At 14 & 16 DH's kids are doing OK at bringing stuff back and forth, but still don't balance out the clothes very well.

When it comes to "big ticket" items like blanket, favorite stuffed animal, etc, support the kids in having one of it (versus the "mom's house one" and the "dad's house one") and bringing it with them. They are young enough that they will probably need reminders plus you keeping track of it. This does get tricky if they or you or Mom forget it at one house and need it at the other house, but it's possible to sort it out. We live about 10 minutes away from the kids' mom and while there are negatives, it does make it easier to get stuff they forget. But ugh, it's way better to just not forget, so that you don't have to have multiple contacts that (especially when the kids are younger) make it harder for them to settle down.

All that to say -- that's good that as you work through what you want to do, you are considering it from your kids' perspective. If it comes to a situation with two houses, reassuring them that they will have everything they need at both houses -- underwear, pajamas, beds, food, toys, etc -- is the way to go.

[Notwendy]

One odd thing I have been thinking about is who will have what of the children's toys. Who decides where my kids will have their Lego for example?

It's good you are thinking about this, but it's also a lesser issue. As Kells said- they can have toys in both homes. You will likely be duplicating things like clothes and shoes, toiletries. This makes the changing back and forth easy- they don't have to pack a lot and also good to have their own things at both houses.

I'd be careful about the 2 steps out, 1 step in with duplicating the push pull dynamics. It also makes boundaries fuzzy. Not only is there not the exact right time, but it's not an all or none decision. It's more that when you look at both the pros and cons, one decision becomes clearer.

[Kayteelouwho]

agree she will sense your getting ready to leave it could be very subtle things you do, you tried to leave before so she already maybe looking for signs.

I don't think you need to be needing a lawyer straight away that is only when your ready for divorce. it's how long your staying to separating your wife and moving out.

Every separation is difficult and it hurtful to all and is definitely harder with bpd partners and can become and react in impulsive and hurtful ways. She may be treated to a degree and it won't be too bad of transition.

Are you concerned about the children's part in this?

Do you want to live there for a few more months?

 I don't think that's an odd thought to have about your children's belongings. Well it might be a joint decision with your wife or some times it's you will have some things at yours and some at hers and it will come back and fourth home both of your homes she may say they aren't allowed to just have some bits at yours that's new and there's and clothing and spares if you need them plus children age the toys change.  

It takes time to sort all of those just try to make plans for each and every situation, and things you would like to sort out. but with children's just love them support them and teach them that it is OK.

It can feel like all very big decisions and it can feel scary. I know when me and my partner with my children I would rethink alot of things over and that is OK, I'm sure you will make the right choices for you and your children.

[15years]

Kells, that sounds like a good way to look at it, if I get there this will be helpful.

Notwendy, I see what you mean about the push and pull. I don't know if it changes your view on it, but what I meant was that my thoughts and feelings are going two steps forward and one step back. My trust in being able to leave gets stronger every time and my conviction about continuing gets weaker.

I have a hard time picturing us together forever, when I'm realising how little she cares about how I view myself.

Kay, thank you for your encouragement!

[livednlearned]

Hi 15 years,

Leaving is tricky, both emotionally and legally. You're smart to be thinking ahead and putting yourself into different scenarios, figuring out how things might go. In a BPD relationship, it's almost essential to be a few steps ahead if you want to set your family up for a good outcome.

I admit I lied to my n/BPDx husband about my intention to leave because that was the best way to stay safe. Not only for me, but also for our son and even n/BPDx to an extent. He was not stable enough to hear information about an impending divorce. Lying to him was a natural byproduct of how unsafe the relationship had become and I'm sorry for those of us who have to do that in order to take even just minimal care of ourselves.

A year before I left I created a separate bank account and deposited what I could so I would have enough for a deposit on an apartment and a few months of rent. I photocopied all important documents, consulted with an attorney who gave me important information about what I should avoid. I rented a storage locker and put things in it that I would need, including stuff for our son. I got a credit card in my name only, bought a burner phone and PO box for any correspondence my attorney might send. I saw a therapist who helped me work through the fear, obligation and guilt.

Seeking out a lawyer now is a way to see a safe path forward, where to step and not step. For example, my L said if I left with (then) S8, to make sure I called ex that night to let him know S8 was safe and make sure they could talk on the phone. This removed any allegations of abduction.

My attorney also told me to document what I did for a year, what ex did, including behaviors that negatively impacted our son (e.g. drinking to excess, blacking out). She also encouraged me to get our son into therapy under the auspice of behaviors ex didn't like, which included S8's excessively restrictive and picky eating.

You can talk to an attorney for a 30 minute consultation that is sometimes free, or may cost a hundred dollars or so that you can then apply to a retainer if you decide to go with them. Ideally, you interview a handful. Tell them what your goals are for custody and ask them to outline a strategy for how they will help you reach your goals. Explain that your ex may make false allegations, could be a danger to herself and the kids (if that is your experience, including engaging in parental alienation), and will likely be high conflict and prone to stonewalling.

As for where the kids' belongings go, that is apparently one of the things kids care about more. Often, we tell the kids mom and dad still love you, etc. But what kids really want to hear is whether they will have two toothbrushes, will they have to take a new bus to school, what will the schedule be. My son wanted to know if he would have to take his underwear to school in his backpack because he saw a friend whose parents were divorced get teased when he pulled out his lunch and his underwear fell out. Kids care about their immediate needs and concern appropriate to their ages. S2 may not know what's going on to the same extent but older kids will understand.

I told my son it was my job to keep him safe and I could not do that by staying married to his dad. He didn't have much of a bond with n/BPDx and immediately liked how much less stressful it was in our new apartment. I also told him there was a team of people helping me and his dad figure out how to adjust to our new relationship, and had created a relationship with the family specialist at his school who knew he might need to leave the classroom and hang out with her on days that were really hard.

The nice part about thinking ahead is that you have eliminated some of the stress from not knowing what to do.

My ex did not have tender cycles so I didn't struggle with that so much but I was susceptible to crushing guilt. It's helpful to look at past behaviors to see what your Achilles' heel might be and then put support in place that lends strength when you cross those milestones.

What happened last time when you left and returned?

[ForeverDad]

Separation and potential divorce can be very complicated when children are involved.  When dealing with BPD aspects, it is extremely complicated and daunting.  It's more than just the legal aspect, there are the emotions, triggers, and more when custody and parenting schedules are at stake.  That's why you can benefit from both (1) an experienced lawyer's advice and (2) a counselor's objective perspective, not to mention also (3) the "been there, done that" collective wisdom of what usually works - and what generally doesn't work - that peer support can contribute here.

LivednLearned benefited from legal advice well in advance of stepping away from a failing marriage.  She took advantage of inexpensive legal consultations - to help her avoid many of the common mistakes we Nice Guys and Nice Gals are prone to innocently make - and probably didn't have to officially hire a lawyer and pay a retainer until later.

Remember, legal consultations and the advice obtained are totally private and confidential, same as counseling sessions... you do not confess and reveal, not even during spouse's late night inquisitions to "we will fix this tonight or else".

[15years]

Livednlearned, FD

What you bring up gives me another perspective on consulting a lawyer. I think I will probably consider this. Another positive aspect about this is that the more I talk to other people and professionals, the braver I get.


Last night was terrible and s2 had not fallen asleep yet when she started yelling at me. I did my successful take a break for a glass of water trick which delayed the fight and I went to check in on s2 to show that I was thinking about him. But The yelling continued and ultimately it became physical. I locked myself in the bathroom and she tried once again to unlock the door with a screwdriver, but I didn't let her in. S2 came out of the kids bedroom and I was worried about him as I didn't see what was going on and wife was unhinged, so I unlocked the door. It triggered her even more that I tried to be caring towards him. She chased me back to the bathroom but she totally lost it and screamed a very high pitched scream, s2 was frightened and started crying. I stormed out from the bathroom and held my son which again triggered her and she came at me and started stabbing me with the handle of the screwdriver, while I was holding our son. I was very close to calling the cops but ultimately chose not to. She convinced me to let her hold s2 and I did to avoid further escalation. He protested and said "help" two times while reaching for me, she made it clear I can not have him. I tried to tell her that her being upset did make him upset. Of course that only seemed to escalate things so I let her put him to bed. She was trying to calm him down, and I think she succeeded, don't know if that matters at all in this case(?). I asked her if I could say good night to him and she said no. I was only scared that it eould escalate again and put him in the middle so I let it be. Later she was going on about the initial fight and I told her that I will go check on our son, she wasn't happy but she didn't chase me either so I was happy I did that. He seemed calm and I hugged him and said good night. After that I bet he fell asleep, our fight continued but that is not my concern. My concern now is if there is something I could do now when it's still fresh, to not make this a trauma for him. Or is the harm already done.

I did go to a shelter for victims of violence with s2 this morning for 15 minutes, to consult them on what to do. And to prove to myself that I can take action. I don't think it leads to anything but it could be an important step for me. When all this was going on last night I was sure that I would make someone call the social services today by telling them about the full extent of the violence. I didn't say anything specific at the shelter, I didnt dare to. But I have thought a lot about how I'm the only responsible grown up right now, and I have to stop protecting her and do the right thing. I think I'm getting there.

What would you suggest that I do in this situation?

[Kayteelouwho]

Hi 15 years,

I'm so sorry your going through this:

So I would get legal advice in the fact she's most probably going to be just as bad as last night.

I actually went to a DV services because of the violence and it was affecting my children and I did call the police and they have helped on making plans to get out and contact numbers when I needed help immediately and its the same for my cousin actually had to get her sectioned because she was unsafe to her self and it really did help. he stayed in the marriage and still going through it repeatedly your statement of locking the bathroom door I can totally relate to that I did it many occasions but last time grabbed my kids and we all was in the bathroom mine is 11 and 19 months. I was pretty beaten down at that point and needed the enteral support from our local resources to help me and felt strong enough to leave the situation it was done through alot of planning and coming out of a foggy mind I suppose. I contacted my sister and me and the kids stayed there for a while till I had alot in place.

Keep the strength you have, I Can say honestly the best thing I did was get out of that situation had a few bumps on that road but I do know getting the help and putting it in place kept me on a path there and seeing my children like that was that hardest thing I felt like I failed them and now our life is calm.

Has your wife always had serve rages or has only recently increased?

take care.

[15years]

Hi Kayteelouwho,

She has always been upset but not violent, the violence started last year due to a "betrayal trauma", I think it served as a catalyst for quickly introducing physical abuse to her repertoire and now she can't seem to stop. I'm quite sure the violence would have been introduced sooner or later with or without my help.

Good to hear that you're satisfied with your decision to leave.

For me, I've started to really grieve this relationship now, seeing her for what she is - a beautiful person who I can't make it work with.

[I Am Redeemed]

What did the DV shelter suggest? Did they give you guidance on making a plan to stay safe?

Do they offer counseling services there? I think you need some ongoing support for this situation.

It is scary to think that social services might be called. However, if physical violence is involved and the kids are witnessing it, being proactive in taking steps to protect them as well as yourself is necessary. That is what social services will want to see from you if they do get involved.

[Kayteelouwho]

I am redeemed had some good advice.

I did have DV officer who asked if they could contact child services I said yes

child services was notified for me and actually that was also beneficial as they wanted to help the situation and make sure the children was safe and also offer counselling to my 11 year old and help recover from the trauma and abuse they was subjected too, and they notified the school what was going on to help too for need of an immediate escape plan.

The police was called my partner also then couldn't see that behaviour was wrong in any shape or form. or see his own actions didn't need consequences for those actions.

At the moment you are the responsible adult and the only one.

Why did you second guess calling the police?

Is she not accountable for her actions same as if you or I to do that?

I would get more advice I know you was doing the best you could last night, but what if she actually got you or your child with the screwdriver?

I think it would help to get more information on DV and a plan.

Did you feel more confident speaking to them?



 

[ForeverDad]

Your experience last night was similar to the event when I called the police some 15 years ago, just before I registered here.  I was in my 16th year of marriage and had a 3 year old preschooler.  Mine started a bit scary, the police defaulted to asking me to "step away".  Son refused to leave my arms so I wasn't carted off.

What made a difference was I had recorded a part of the conflict, unknown to her.  She was clearly aggressive and screaming while I was passive.  Once I downloaded it from my device and police listened, my outcome improved.

Did you get anything recorded?  A real risk is that when the police or children's services called her, she could have denied any raging and claim you were the abusive one.  How would you defend against that?

In my case a preschooler was my only witness.  Without a voice recording I would have had no documentation...

[15years]

What did the DV shelter suggest? Did they give you guidance on making a plan to stay safe?

Do they offer counseling services there? I think you need some ongoing support for this situation.

It is scary to think that social services might be called. However, if physical violence is involved and the kids are witnessing it, being proactive in taking steps to protect them as well as yourself is necessary. That is what social services will want to see from you if they do get involved.

The thing is I'm hesitant to admitting to how far the violence have gone, in fear of the social services being called. Although it's not ideal, I wouldn't mind personally that much, I really think we need help, but I know it would trigger my wife's shame so much that I'm not sure where it would lead. The shelter I visited collaborates with a center for dealing with violence in families (sorry dont know what it's called in english). They offer support for families affected by violence. I have visited in secret a few times so when I visited the shelter today I told them they were allowed to tell my contact person there. She contacted me and we spoke a little about the possibility to involve the social services, she is obliged to do so if she finds it necessary. We scheduled a meeting for next Wednesday, so I now have an opportunity to come clean about the seriousness of the physical abuse. It feels like I'm at a position where I have to choose what direction to take.

[livednlearned]

It's pretty common for many of us to live in the shadows during these relationships because we know that too much sunlight will lead to what can be a shocking amount of change.

We often think we have things under control but in retrospect it was chaos.

It might be worth reaching out to an attorney at the same time you talk to the shelter so you feel informed about how things work where you live.

Most third-party professionals want assurances that you are putting the safety of the kids first, even if you are spinning 20 other plates and need some time to get organized and straighten out your head.

This:

"I am concerned about the trauma my kids are experiencing when my wife assaults me. If I try to comfort them, she becomes more violent. She attacked me with a screwdriver while I held my son. The safety of my kids is my primary concern."

is different than

"My wife assaults me and I feel afraid of her. She attacked me with a screwdriver after using it to break open the door."

You want to create allies who will advocate for you based on aligned priorities. These are people who may end up becoming third-party professionals who can advocate for you if it comes to that.

Your wife may experience shame as the sunlight comes her way from these steps. What she does with that shame is the question. She may try to bring down your character so her own doesn't look so bad.

That's where an attorney can be helpful, so that you know what is and isn't relevant in what is essentially about the safety and well-being of the kids.

And by saying people in the system care about the kids, I mean in both an emotional and legal sense. What happens to you is awful and you truly deserve better, 15years. Anyone hearing what you are dealing with would feel compassion for your pain and suffering.

My lawyer once said to me that telling a harrowing tale of abuse at the hands of our spouses can raise questions about our own judgment. If it was that bad, why not ask for help? They want to know that we understood it was bad and then took steps to help protect our kids.

[2020]

I am not sure what country you are in, but my past experience with Social Services (in Australia) has been horrific. This was 25 years ago, mind you.

Somebody (I never worked out who), for some reason (maybe we had too many black clothes on our washing line), decided to send the ‘ladies with degrees in basket weaving’ as my lawyer described them. I was building large scale props for dance parties at the time and had a huge amount of ‘reverse garbage’ post-consumer waste at the home. They called this filth.

They took my Son away; just took him from his school. It took me ten days to get him back, and a lot of trouble. The person I was building props for put me in touch with his lawyer. He told me if I phone them up and yell at them (which I did), they will put my Son into ‘care’ and he will be shipped up and down the state from one family to the next and we may never see him again. I learnt to play their game.

Yes, children need protecting, but these people are VERY dangerous. Many of them are abused themselves and are out for revenge. I am sorry to be so extreme, but my Son is 30 now and has been permanently scarred by these people. Just be very, very careful. They are snakes. They may not be your friends.

[Blueberry Cat]

Hello, when I was in your position I thought things were progressing fairly logically.
  Then I left when it became plainly obvious that’s a stay would’ve put me and my daughter in danger.
   Then my ex was 5115 for being a danger to herself and others, she then blamed this condition on me and accused me of abuse to her and the children and filed restraining order on me taking possession of the house and alienating me from the children and all of our friends.
  So you’re asking the question and my answer is be very careful you have no idea what’s gonna happen when you do leave it’s quite possible should become unhinged and the stories and allegations that she could make up for surprise you because sometimes everything become so distorted you go into it feels like a fairytale in a bad way.
  I would recommend hiring a lawyer immediately the best in town and getting the other two best in town either on a retainer or go and talk with them and take this situation very seriously so you don’t end up where I have been trying to fight my way out of.
  If you’re truly worried about your children I will talk to professionals. This is where I went wrong I thought I could cope with things and I thought things were logical but they just not if you’re working with someone who has borderline personality disorder that’s the borderline between psychosis and neurosis and once you leave the triggering of them will cause them to do unbelievable things if you’re I’m lucky like I was.
   I truly wish you the best please ask questions if you wish safeguard yourself because you might not know what you’re up against

[Cat Familiar]

I’m going to echo Blueberry Cat’s concerns. I thought I was going to be dealing with a rational person, though occasionally violent, in my divorce. He created scenarios that wouldn’t have occurred to me in my wildest imagination. Document, document, document everything you can think of—who bought what, what happened when, etc.

Advice from an attorney is a must. I don’t know how it works in your country, but in the US, if you consult with an attorney and don’t use their services, they are prevented from representing your spouse. So the idea of talking with the three best attorneys in your area seems like a wise strategy.

My ex found the most vicious pit bull of an attorney in town. It went from what I thought would be an equitable settlement to me having to fight and prove that I bought everything that I brought into the marriage, because my ex lied repeatedly…under oath.

[livednlearned]

Consulting with a lawyer helps you develop a plan. A plan gives you some structure to what probably feels like a lot of chaos and fear and uncertainty at the moment.

Ask how things work where you live. Know what your goals are (e.g. shared physical custody, sole legal custody,  50/50 visitation, therapy for s5, etc., if those are phrases that are used where you live). Then ask about strategies. I read in your past posts that you keep a journal. Ask the lawyer if your journals might be useful. Ask what will happen when you meet with DV services next week when they call child protective services so you know what to expect.

The fact she has been violent with you suggests she might allege the same of you in order to level the playing field. She may bring up her allegations that you have raped her. Ask an attorney how to handle those allegations, and whether there is anything you can do to shine light on her inconsistencies, since it sounds like she also demands sex.

Those two behaviors -- alleging rape while also demanding sex -- are two circles that are hard to square. And if there is light BDSM that you worry might come to the surface, ask a lawyer how to handle it. Most attorneys have heard it all. You may be told it's nothing to worry about, or advised to seek out counseling (to show you are open to self-reflection), or something else altogether that makes sense for how things work where you live.

It's true that child protective services can go either way. There are many horror stories here, and there are also stories where third-party professionals were essential. Same with attorneys. Same with judges. All you can do is plan and try to be a few steps ahead.

If you haven't read Splitting by Bill Eddy, that's required reading for many of us. He explains a bit how the family law system works (US-centric) when someone with a personality disorder enters it.

What are your thoughts about the care of your kids if/when you leave? It sounds like you may need a plan for that so you can continue to work.

It's ok to take time and absorb information and do nothing -- it's a lot to take in. Everyone has different emotional capacity and breaking points and sometimes the timing is not quite right. Some couples tolerate these relationships for decades while others not so much. Knowing how things work where you live will help you be prepared and I can't say enough about how much that helped in my own exit.

If you do stay, keep trying to use the communication skills as best you can. They will be good to have in life regardless of what happens in your marriage, and they will help in co-parenting and raising emotionally resilient kids, too.