daughter crumbling from uBPDw parenting

[FirstSteps]

I'm at a loss right now - as my work on my relationship with my wife is directly affecting my D15.

The relationship has been calm this week.  I'm taking space.  I'm not overreacting now that she's withdrawn.  She is not taking anything out on me - even if she is certainly not present -  and I'm allowing her the chance to be changing.  

At the same time, she's oozing all sorts of mixed messages to our daughter, who has really struggled this year post-pandemic (very seriously, as in one short hospitalization and much time out of school, though she has bounced back heroically in the past months).  Our family system is a direct cause of this, though my daughter seems to also attribute a lot of external stresses to my wife.  Which makes sense but is also hard for my wife.

Anyway, as I'm making changes to see if the family can be saved, my daughter is crumbling under the pressure, as my wife redirects some of her energy towards her.  It's fairly subtle but things like refusing to go into her room, calling her down for lots of "talks," lots of passive aggressive comments, telling her she's too loud at night when she's only reading and walking around her room and so on.  It's worse in reality than it reads because of that BPD energy that accompanies it all.

It feels like I'm betraying my daughter by trying to make it work with her mother.  And my top priority is keeping my kids healthy.  But I also feel like the only way to improve the situation materially is to leave, which I wasn't ready to do yet.  

I'll be away tonight at a concert and then away on Monday night for a night by myself.  So the stakes feel somewhat high.

To put in context, I've made many, many positive changes lately with my kids - more or less following every guide.  I am a safe space for them.  I buffer them from their mom without triangulating.  I advocate for them with my wife.  I'm getting them out of the house more and also making sure I get good alone time with them.  I'm not sure there's much more to do on that level.  I did this all regularly until about 4 years ago when I lost my way.  So there's a foundation here that I'm just back to building on.

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[Notwendy]

I truly feel for you- you are in the situation my father was in.

I am my mother's scapegoat child, which remains this way still. We had issues when I was a teen, teens naturally exert their boundaries, which doesn't sit well with pwBPD. One issue is that my BPD mother enlisted me as an emotional caretaker. This pleased my father, because it was I guess one more person helping out, but she also confided in me, TMI. Although I was a teen, in some ways, I was emotionally more mature than her, yet, I also was expected to obey her. It was confusing. Somehow my normal teen behavior was unacceptable, yet her obviously dysfunctional behavior was tolerated.

I trust your D already has a counselor to to talk to. Some things that made me more resilient was time away- staying with my Dad's family, camps, school- school was my safe place. Honestly, if I had to be home during the pandemic, I don't think I could have handled it. I actually thought about this when 2020 hit- if I had been a teen what would I have done? I think I would have begged my father to let me live with his family. BPD mother would have been fine with that too.

My parents didn't divorce but I also would have asked to live with Dad if they did.

College became my way to independence. Fortunately, I had good enough grades to go.

If you don't leave the marriage, perhaps the best things are: counseling, time away from home, and encourage her to go to college, away from home.

Consider too, even if you leave the marriage, one doesn't "divorce" a parent- your wife will be her mother. She will need to decide how to handle this as an adult. For me, becoming financially independent helped me to truly be a separate adult and have choices.

[FirstSteps]

Notwendy - thank you again for the great advice.

I hadn't actually seen that my daughter had become the full scapegoat, though it's suddenly clear.  She was the favorite before (her brother more neutral) but she has refused as a teenager to be her mother's emotional caregiver, which I have encouraged and applauded.  So this explains a lot.  Doesn't make it easier though, as this means it's likely a long-term trend.

It's hard because I want to support my daughter while at the same time giving my wife a chance to respond to my relationship changes - which is sort of happening. I just have no idea if I'm doing more harm or good by staying at this point.  My son is starting to get super frustrated with life at home too, even with the recent improvement.  At some point, it's just gone too far, and I can't tell if that's happened.  My therapist says I'll just know but I honestly am not sure I trust myself like that anymore.

My FOO is unfortunately not really a regular option though both kids do see them and they are a positive force in their lives. But I can keep working at that.  I got her out of two family events this weekend, which was great.  She's got an excellent therapist, as does my son.  And my daughter is already planning to move the moment she turns 18 to travel or for college, which I'm supporting wholeheartedly, regardless if my wife and I are still together or not.  She needs to be on her own and to find her own balance with her mother.

[BlueNavigator]

Notwendy,

This is difficult, I am also coparenting with a BPD spouse, though my son is just a preschooler. Still, the constant criticism and emotional volatility has an effect on children who look to their parents for stability. Probably some of the best advice I received was to read "Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent".

It does have several good suggestions on what to do (sounds like you are already doing much of them), but I also find it to be validating and encouraging. Personally, each time I read it I feel encouraged and emotionally strengthened to provide my son with the love and support he needs.

[Notwendy]

I keep in mind that so much information that is available today was not available when my parents got married. I am hoping it makes a difference for families with children today. I think the impact on a child can vary. BPD is a spectrum disorder and so some pwBPD may have better parenting skills than others. My mother is on the severe end of the spectrum. Fortunately my father was able to provide a lot of the parenting- through sitters, the help of his family and he also took on the role of main parent. While it had to be a lot for him, it's also where the parental bond became stronger.

Then there's the child themselves and the role they have, such as golden child, or scapegoat.

My best guess at what to do is to make the decision to stay or leave based on the personal factors in each relationship- what is best possible choice of a situation, but knowing that each of these choices has benefits and challenges. Use whatever resources you can to provide as much "normal" as possible for the kids- (child care, if affordable- time with other relatives, extended families)It may not seem fair to do more of the parenting but it may be needed. I think counseling is helpful for all involved. Encourage them to continue this as adults, as needed.

[Notwendy]

And my daughter is already planning to move the moment she turns 18 to travel or for college, which I'm supporting wholeheartedly, regardless if my wife and I are still together or not.  She needs to be on her own and to find her own balance with her mother.

I can relate to your D's feelings. I really wanted to go to college as soon as possible.

I think your support for your D's wish to be independent is important- that she has the tools to get the education she needs in order to have a job to support herself. If she wants to take some time before college, I don't see that as an issue. College readiness can vary. On the other hand, I'd be cautious about not having structure or a goal in mind, so something like a structured program where they are learning or volunteering may have more value. Also, if she is ready for college, there's the option of study abroad while in college. While getting out of the home environment helps- it's not the only solution. She still has her feelings to deal with. I'd want some structure and community around her if she's travelling.

[FirstSteps]

Notwendy - that is such an important point about structure.  I have just said no to a summer program she got into for just this reason. It has structure, of course, but I just couldn't see her being on her own in a dorm, far from home, in a super intense setting with 10-hour days.  I want her to do these things, and to be away, but I also want her to succeed. (And she is getting away twice this summer in other ways)

So a very good point about her situation after graduation too.

[Notwendy]

I try to share what would have helped me. I imagined that getting away from BPD mom would help, and it did, but my freshman year was a challenge in some ways. Academically, I did fine. Socially, I found it hard to fit in. In some ways, I was more mature and responsible than my peers, studied, didn't like to party but also felt lonely and it was hard to relate to people. In some ways, I was way behind them. I was terrified of dating. I think I was afraid to be that close to someone and if I tried to be, I was so afraid of them getting angry at me and not liking me that I wasn't myself around them. I didn't understand that this fear was probably connected to how I grew up.

I did have enough insight to use the student counseling resources for this and also for how to deal with any family issues that may have come up along the way.

Having a goal to do well and prepare for employment after college was a driving force. I knew I had to become financially independent from my parents as BPD mother controlled the finances. It also was a source of pride to not have to ask my parents for money once I was able to. So while I think it's important that you support your D on this path to independence, I also think it's important for her to have the incentive to do that- by having limits that you support as long as she is working towards a goal. That might not be the same for every child.

She may stumble a bit along the way, not get all good grades, change majors or just not know what she wants to do - which is understandable or she may be dealing with emotional issues once she isn't focused on dealing with BPD mom and need to deal with them. Just as long as she's moving forward towards whatever that is- in a structured - but not too rigid way.

[In the same boat]

This post caught my attention as I have a daughter who is being effected by her BPD mother.  I only recently discovered that I have a uBDPw and I have just started learning about the disorder.  That being said, my daughter is not happy and has left home twice (staying with her older brother) due to the situation here.  She is currently gone and is not really speaking to me or my W.   I feel that she has lost trust in both of her parents due to what has occurred in our home over the last few months.  I am codependent on the BPDw and am trying to break myself of the dependency, but it hasn’t been pretty. 

Since I am new here and have not looked at many of the tools yet, may I ask the difference between the scapegoat and golden child? 

[Notwendy]

Most of what I can find on this is with narcissistic parents but it can happen with BPD. A family responds as a unit, with different family members taking on different rules that balance a dysfunctional parent. The scapegoat child becomes the one who the disordered parent projects the blame on, their own poor self image. The golden child is favored and is the "best of " the parent. Neither roles are good for the child, but it can appear that the golden child is better off, but not really. It's part of black and white thinking. One child can't seem to do anything right, the other doesn't do any wrong.

https://medium.com/invisible-illness/is-it-better-to-be-the-scapegoat-or-the-golden-child-906ea20420f3

[In the same boat]

Thanks for the explanation, I am not sure if we have a golden child or a scapegoat at the moment, everyone is just hurt...

My 16 year old daughter, just got her driver's license 2 weeks ago, has decided she doesn't want to be here anymore and has gone to stay at her older brother's house.  This is the second time she has decided to go over there, the first time being right after our very first major BPD blow up.  I worry about her coming back here because of my wife with uBPD.  She is very negative about her being gone and is very angry with her. 

My only problem with her being gone is that my daughter doesn't want to have contact with either one of us.  I feel that i may have given her TMI a week ago about her mom.  Her mom has been crying off and on since the weekend before Easter.  One day last week i told her "No" to something she asked for and she melted just before leaving for work.  My daughter witnessed this break down and I ended up telling her that her mom may have BPD and what it was.  She has been extremely overwhelmed with school and dance and worry that this may have put her over the edge. Looking back at things, i do feel that i share too much with her...   This last weekend, she left abruptly without telling us, her brother actually called to let us know she needs space and she would be staying with him.  I can respect that and i have not really contacted her for the past week. 

My daughter is crumbling because of a uBPDm and a codependent dad...

It is interesting the way things have progressed for me.  Since the beginning of the pandemic, i have felt like i was slowly going crazy.  I have been seeing a therapist the entire time and was thinking it was due to work and past trauma.  Eventually work got better but i was still anxious and found that it was my wife that was making me so anxious.  I started working on things around this and found that i am a codependent enabler.  I had started to express some boundaries which led a huge fight and the first meltdown and suicidal ideations that my daughter was the sole witness to...  This was the first time that my daughter went away, now she is away again.

I am trying to work on my codependency.  Both my D and SS have left the house so that my uBPDw for us to "work things out".  They don't understand, i need to get out of this house and discover who i am not stay here and work on us!  I have started making reconnections with family and some friends and i would like them to grow.  My hesitation is that I worry about leaving my W alone because of her suicidal talk, is this my codependency talking or is it real?

I didn't mean to write so much, but i started and it all just kind of came out.  I was really wanting to ask what others have done to support their daughters when dealing with a uBPDm.  I really want to be there for her but she needs to find her path as well.  She is in therapy and my uBPDw and i are meeting with the therapist this evening.  I hope she can shed some light on what we have done to her... 

[FirstSteps]

In the same boat - I am not one to give advice as I'm in the middle of a very similar situation.  But you will get great guidance here.

I also fell apart during the pandemic in terms of my deep codependant relationship with my wife.  It is so so hard to know how to parent in the middle of this kind of chaos.  I made many, many big mistakes though thankfully I've more or less repaired my relationship with my kids even as my relationship with my wife deteriorates.  It was such a big move to prioritize them and not her. 

I cannot recommend highly enough the book:  Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent.  It has given me such good guidance and a foundation to build on.

I also worry about my wife's mental health and suicidal ideation.  But as time goes on, I'm feeling stronger about that.  It's really, really not your responsibility - especially at your daughter's expense. 

I hope the therapy goes well.  It's been a disaster with us though we are trying one last time starting this weekend. 

[Notwendy]

First, I commend you dads for noticing your daughter's feelings. One advantage you have is that when I was a teen, there wasn't the kind of information or resources about BPD or co-dependency that we have now. If the internet had been available, I would have been all over it looking for an answer. I knew something wasn't right with BPD mother but didn't know what it was.

I don't think explaining BPD to your D was TMI. I think how it is done is important- to be factual and not triangulate, but I think it would have been better had I known the truth. Instead, our family "secret" was to not talk about her behaviors at all, and pretend she was "normal". By then though, I had been around my friends' mothers and could see that their mothers were acting different than mine.

The conclusion then, was that she must dislike me if she acted that way and in turn, as a teen, I felt the same way. However, a mother still has a lot of influence on a D. I wanted my mother to love me. By my teens, we were on the Karpman triangle- played out between her, me and Dad. If she was angry at him, she'd confide in me ( TMI ) and so I became the rescuer in that scheme. If she was angry at me, she'd enlist Dad as rescuer and he'd be angry at me.

It was obvious (even to non family members) that she preferred the golden child. The choices I had to get approval from my parents was to either become another "rescuer" enabler or BPD mother would be angry at me. The best way to get along was to also enable BPD mother. My father was co-dependent and this was one way to get approval from him- join him in the goal of keeping mother content.

If I had somewhere else to live at age 16, I'd have left. As it was, I spent a lot of time at my friends' houses by then. College was the way for me to leave. It's interesting that your wife wants your D back. BPD mother also seemed to prefer that, even if we had conflicts.

The way I see this is through family systems. The family functions as a unit. Each person takes on a role which keeps the family stable. When one person steps out of their role, the other members feel a sense of discomfort. The first thing they try to do is to get that family member back into the fold so they all feel better. It doesn't make logical sense- if the scapegoat child was truly the reason for the problems, their leaving would make things better, but actually the family "needs" each person to participate and feels unbalanced without them.

It also "doesn't look good" when this happens. In the times I have set boundaries with BPD mom, to her, it must be that I am the cause of the problem, not her.

I didn't learn about co-dependency until as an adult, I had to face my own co-dependency. Until then, I saw my mother as the one with the problem and my father as a victim of her behavior. I knew I didn't want to act like her, so my other role model was him. Codependency was the example of "normal" in my family. I also was more attached to him. He was the one who acted more as a parent.

I do understand his situation as I also had to manage the difficulty saying no, and being a people pleaser. I also credit him for his efforts as a parent. His stability, his financial support were crucial to our well being. However, I also see where being co-dependent is dysfunctional and not the best way to relate to children. I was motivated to work on this so as not to set that example for my own children. So now, I know that that a good thing you Dads can do for your children is to work on your own co-dependency. Change the example, change the dynamics.

I'd bet things aren't comfortable at home with D 16 out of the house. It's likely her presence served a purpose to maintain BPD mom and BPD mom's anger makes sense. This also makes you feel on edge as well and you are concerned for your D. But what is truly better for your D's well being? Is it to return to take on her role in placating BPD mom or to have a respite from the dysfunctional dynamics?

She may be upset with you both right now, and that's uncomfortable for both of you.  She doesn't want contact with you two- but that is your wish, not hers. Your feelings are not her responsibility.

As a parent, your role is to keep her safe, and she is safe. She's in a safe and secure place with her brother. Her brother will keep you informed of your well being. If her needs for safety and shelter are being met, and she's content there, then she seems to be OK where she is.

[Notwendy]

To clarify: She may be upset with you both right now, and that's uncomfortable for both of you.  She doesn't want contact with you two- but that is your wish ( for her to have contact) , not hers. Your feelings are not her responsibility.

As a parent, your role is to keep her safe, and she is safe. She's in a safe and secure place with her brother. Her brother will keep you informed of her well being. If her needs for safety and shelter are being met, and she's content there, then she seems to be OK where she is.

[In the same boat]

Thank you, that is exactly what i needed to hear.

I did find that my D is upset with both of us as we have involved her in too many of our problems. I am so grateful she has her brother's home to go to, I worry what would have happened if she didn't have this out.  I have been trying to take a step back and work on my codependency and learning about BPD.  Unfortunately, when I work on asserting boundaries my W melts.  This is going to be a long process of working through our issues.

We will get through it one way or another.

[Notwendy]

Yes, habits don't change quickly- working out the co-dependent/BPD dynamics takes time and effort, but you have that space now.