Unsolvable - but advice welcome

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So then the question goes back to -- if the kids are saying "if you attend I won't do it", then how do you stay involved in their lives in a way where you can live out your values (of being there for them) and yet also not be roped into "creating" a traumatic situation.

For the most part, I can not.  Which is exactly why the ex has created this dynamic.  To eliminate me from being involved in their lives in any way.  Other actions are to actively erase me from their memories as ever having any involvement. 

She is will for them to choose a form of self harm, simply to avoid the possibility that I might share in some meaningful memorable even of theirs. 

How to take 'the high road' without causing further damage and trauma, but at the same time having some meaningful impact that helps them over time.

[yeeter]

So then the question goes back to -- if the kids are saying "if you attend I won't do it", then how do you stay involved in their lives in a way where you can live out your values (of being there for them) and yet also not be roped into "creating" a traumatic situation.

For the most part, I can not.  Which is exactly why the ex has created this dynamic.  To eliminate me from being involved in their lives in any way.  Other actions are to actively erase me from their memories as ever having any involvement. 

She is will for them to choose a form of self harm, simply to avoid the possibility that I might share in some meaningful memorable even of theirs. 

How to take 'the high road' without causing further damage and trauma, but at the same time having some meaningful impact that helps them over time.

[zachira]

What about being involved in parent teacher conferences? You can regularly update the professionals at their schools about what is going on. Your daughters are likely old enough to give permission for their own therapy, and parents would probably have no access to what is discussed in therapy because of how it would damage the client therapist relationship. Some school districts have free therapy for any child or teenager. A professional at the school can ask the girls if they are interested in therapy and let them know how to get it if they are ever interested. Many teenagers in dysfunctional families are able to undo a lot of the damage and break the intergenerational cycles of the dysfunction by being in therapy during their teenage years.

[Skip]

But is that really what is in kids best interest?  Others say no - some have even experienced a parent showing up at their events as a child, and they hated it, but then later in life remembering that the parent always showed and they appreciated it even though they treated the parent like crap at the time.

Some out-of-the-box thoughts...

I would send an exceptional graduation gift that will be too good to discard in the basement and a thoughtful card.

As for the sporting event, I would go discretely, see it, maybe catch some good photos, or even hire a photographer to get some great shots... and save them for a later time when you do get to connect with your son.

[yeeter]

What about being involved in parent teacher conferences? You can regularly update the professionals at their schools about what is going on. Your daughters are likely old enough to give permission for their own therapy, and parents would probably have no access to what is discussed in therapy because of how it would damage the client therapist relationship. Some school districts have free therapy for any child or teenager. A professional at the school can ask the girls if they are interested in therapy and let them know how to get it if they are ever interested. Many teenagers in dysfunctional families are able to undo a lot of the damage and break the intergenerational cycles of the dysfunction by being in therapy during their teenage years.

Yes.  I stay connected with teachers and doctors.  Including conferences etc. And send regular reach outs, small tokens, bdays, holidays, etc.

DCF offered therapy to them but can not 'make' them go.  Mom has always been against therapy of any kind.  During court ordered reunification they just put the counselor on mute/turned the video off until session was over.

[yeeter]

Some out-of-the-box thoughts...

I would send an exceptional graduation gift that will be too good to discard in the basement and a thoughtful card.

As for the sporting event, I would go discretely, see it, maybe catch some good photos, or even hire a photographer to get some great shots... and save them for a later time when you do get to connect with your son.

They have not rejected meaningful gifts.  That is something.  Going discretely or in disguise is something others have suggested.  Other parents are more than happy to send me photos or videos.

[Skip]

Other parents are more than happy to send me photos or videos.

I was really saying to get "cool" photo that you can give him some years I'm the future. telling him that you were there because it was important to you but stayed in the background.

In the future...

Gee Dad, I wish you could have seen me...
I did. And I got this photo...

[yeeter]

I was really saying to get "cool" photo that you can give him some years I'm the future. telling him that you were there because it was important to you but stayed in the background.

In the future...

Gee Dad, I wish you could have seen me...
I did. And I got this photo...

 

[ForeverDad]

Another perspective... If the court would have wanted you to exit the girls' lives, then it would have ordered so.  So court expects you to be a part of their lives.  Just trying to look at it from the other side, the legal side.

I recall one magistrate (peeved that her docket was bogged down) asked me, "... so if your son said he wasn't going to school, would you let him stay home?"  Although she was not a good magistrate, her valid point was: the parents make the decisions, not the children.

While your children can have their (probably influenced) perspectives, they're not older, or nearly adult, teens whom court may allow leeway to "vote with their feet" or set rules.

[ForeverDad]

I'm reminded of the father of quintuplets who was here several years ago.

I recently heard from this member.  Most of his kids are doing well.  They still struggle with the trauma, but seem to have a handle on it.  He doesn't come here anymore because it's simply too hard for him to be reminded of his very dark days of the past.

[yeeter]

Just a quick update:

I appreciate all the thoughts and advice suggested.  Again there are no 'solutions'.  But simply fyi on how the dynamics have changed over the last year, which is, they have not.

My son is recovering and is a completely new person.  He is doing exceedingly well at college, while commuting and living with me.  He limits the engagement with mom and has done a really good job establishing and maintaining his own boundaries.  The key to that is that he is 'able' to.  In general he does not answer her calls.  If she rants at him via text he just doesnt respond.  Requests for him to visit at a holiday he honors, but keeps it short and leaves.

He also more openly acknowledges the dysfunction and how it impacted him in the past.  Healthy perspective.

So that is a significant and positive outcome of which I am quite proud of.

The interactions with my daughters are relatively unchanged.  Limited to an occasional text response.  I do not press into or attend their events.  The oldest daughter is graduating HS this year and I hope we can begin an 'adult' relationship after she turns 18 and is in her own environment more. 

This summer both daughters were starting to engage a little more.  Until it was discovered that my youngest was a victim of sexual assault. The police were involved.  I was blamed for sharing contact information to the police of another girl/friend who was exposed.  The ex did not want this to be shared (for some not very good reasons).   Police involvement and I believe another DCF involvement angered my ex and again both daughters have went completely no contact again.  I am sure the portrayal that I am a narcissistic, only care about my own agenda was amplified over it.  The other girls father called and thanked me because there was a play date with them scheduled.  (this individual it turned out is on the sex offender registration list, and is the individual acting as a 'father figure' to my daughters).  The feedback I had gotten once in the past from my oldest was 'we do not need  a father, we just need a father figure' (obviously a position adopted from my ex).  This is a tough dynamic.

The positive outcome is that my youngest daughter did get counseling as a result.  For the first time ever.  And I was able to connect briefly with the counselor and she seems reasonable.  So I am hopeful that my youngest having a third party perspective to talk things through with will be useful over time.

Also my youngest is now in public school (last year was home schooled because my ex deemed the public system inadequate, in spite of being ranked one of the top HS in the nation).  Getting engaged with other peers and activities will be healthy for her.

I try to balance an occasional reach out via text.  Most of these are ignored, or directly rejected.  But I send one from time to time anyway.

The ex is perhaps more unregulated than ever.  The campaign of denigration continues 4 years later.  She still has an allergic reaction and calls the squad at the line of sight of me.  Interactions are quite limited to an email or two a month, always focused on her wanting money and quoting our divorce agreement to me (inaccurately).  I try to just let it roll off.

The lesson here is, that if you have children with someone who has a mental disorder you are tied to that person for the rest of your life.

Also my insight is that the 'professionals' (lawyers, counselors, teachers, etc) all believe they have dealt with difficult people.  But they have not.  It is a continuum and few have experienced a truly high functioning but disordered individual.  It takes a while to learn it, and by then considerable damage is done.  Nobody helped my son but himself (and two different psych ward counselors that stood up to mom on his behalf as part of release).  Everybody says 'best interest of the kids' but none of them have the understanding to where they actually mean that.  The entire system is enabling.

It is not 'solvable'.  I stayed for years because I felt my kids were better of with me in their lives on a daily basis.  I still believe that.  It was my own arrogance that got me into the relationship ('we are two smart capable people, we 'should' be able to make it work').  But we were not two capable people, and I refused to acknowledge and act on the signs that were there.  So some pretty severe consequences in the long run.

Peace to everyone here.  This site was my primary support for years and it was hugely valuable.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Two resources that you may want to read (if you haven't already done so), I've read both, there is some overlap.  The first one concentrates on the alienating issue, the 2nd one is a more general guide on divorce (useful if your ex is still taking you back to court for hearing, or you have less than 50/50 parenting time).

"Don't Alienate the Kids! Raising Resilient Children While Avoiding High Conflict Divorce"
By Bill Eddy · 2010

"Splitting - Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline Or Narcissistic Personality Disorder"  By Bill Eddy, Randi Kreger, William A. Eddy · 2021

[yeeter]

These references are good ones - I have read them (and many others, as well as direct consultation with experts in the field).

From one of the reviews on Splitting:  "The basic summary of this book is these types can do whatever they want."

The court system is ill equipped to do anything about it.  These books do a good job of raising awareness on recognizing some of the dynamics, but unfortunately there just is not a lot that can be done about it.

Some of the best advice I received came from a post here that said:  "quit trying to solve the unsolvable"

I have to accept and move on.  It is part of the grieving process and a stage that has taken years to get to, although I will never really recover from the loss of two daughters.

It is a continual struggle to decide how much to continue 'reaching out' vs moving on and giving them time and space to decide on their own terms when/how to engage (if ever).  If I press too much it is an example of me just being selfish and not respecting their boundaries (then labeled a narcissist).  If I dont reach out it is a sign of me not caring.  If I do not send whatever requests for money that come then I am labeled a deadbeat.  Showing up at their extra curricular events causes significant drama since mom will be hauled off by the ER squad if she sees me line of sight (then I am accused of deliberately trying to kill her since I knowingly attended) - a lot of drama for a teenage to endure so they elect to not attend themselves, any event where I might attend (including my youngest 8th grade graduation - the principle even called and asked me to not attend due to the drama that would unfold!).  Blah blah blah.  It is remarkable the level of dysfunction.

Holidays, as you all know, are an even more difficult time of year to balance.  I post here from time to time just as a way of venting.  And I empathize with all of you going through similar dynamics.

  To all

[SaltyDawg]

From one of the reviews on Splitting:  "The basic summary of this book is these types can do whatever they want."

The court system is ill equipped to do anything about it.  These books do a good job of raising awareness on recognizing some of the dynamics, but unfortunately there just is not a lot that can be done about it.

Some of the best advice I received came from a post here that said:  "quit trying to solve the unsolvable"

I have to accept and move on.  It is part of the grieving process and a stage that has taken years to get to, although I will never really recover from the loss of two daughters.

yeeter,

It may seem unsolvable in the here and now; however, I would suggest shifting to a long term strategy (where a lot of the milestones in the present are lost).

Eventually your daughters when they have their own families, may change their mind and they will want to reconnect with you, especially if their future potential partners are curious - even though the damage has already been done right now.  Once they realize this in the distant future, and have their own issues, perhaps when they are in their late 30's/early 40's you may reconnect with them, perhaps sooner.  That doesn't fix it now, nor does it repair the damage that has been done, it is up to your daughters to realize they had the wool pulled over their eyes and blinded them to you by your wife.  You cannot solve it now; however, I would suggest reaching out to them on key dates (birthdays and holidays), to show that you are thinking and caring about them, even if they don't answer or give you a piece of your ex-wife's mind spoon-fed to them.  If they refuse interacting, use non-interactive forms of communication like greeting cards with positive statements.  If you suspect mom throwing them away, send a duplicate to yourself, and hand deliver in the distant future when your daughters become curious.

I am not suggesting you solve the currently unsolvable issue; but, rather focus, on the distant future, where things may eventually be different with your children.  Expend some energy now, and it has a better chance of allowing you to reconnect to them a bit down the road.  This is also covered in the book 'Splitting'.  Think of it as planting 'seeds', you only have a few, make sure they are put in key areas that have the highest chances of germinating when the drought ends some years into the future.

I would also suggest that you talk to a therapist about your feelings, make sure you do some self-care on this.  Also do other forms of self-care as you move on; however, do carve out a small amount of effort to plant the seeds for a possible future relationship with one or both daughters.

If your son still meets with your daughters, you can ask him to deliver the cards, and stay up on their activities.  Also I know the school my kids attend often lives-streams the events (a silver lining to the COVID-19 pandemic) and watch those instead.

I know it feels very daunting for you right now; however, I would suggest shifting to a long-term strategy for eventual reconnection when they are out of school and have their own families.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[Pook075]

My brother in law went through a similar situation where his ex-wife was clearly in the wrong after the separation...yet she had the ear of the kids and turned them against him.  While you see this as a no-win situation with no answers, there clearly is a best answer in this case- you show up for your kids whenever you can.  You let them know that their dad loves them and misses them, no matter how much the ex rants or says otherwise.

In my brother in law's case, his ex monitored the kids phones.  She violated custody orders and did everything possible to keep the dad out of the kids life.  After years of court battles, he made the most critical mistake of his life...he said "there's nothing else I can do."  Then he gave up, and it has eaten away at him for the past 6+ years...because that's six years of a mom saying that their dad doesn't care, doesn't show up, etc.  And its almost too late now to do anything different about it.

Just keep fighting, however you can, and let the kids know that you do care and you're always there for them.  That's the only thing you can do and it's the only thing that matters.

[yeeter]

yeeter,

It may seem unsolvable in the here and now; however, I would suggest shifting to a long term strategy (where a lot of the milestones in the present are lost).

You cannot solve it now; however, I would suggest reaching out to them on key dates (birthdays and holidays), to show that you are thinking and caring about them, even if they don't answer

I am not suggesting you solve the currently unsolvable issue; but, rather focus, on the distant future, where things may eventually be different with your children. 

Yes.  This is the approach.

[livednlearned]

The part where she is allergic to you goes beyond what most of us here had to contend with, and on top of that she weaponized her condition and alienated the girls in a way that has been heart breaking. I feel for you, yeeter. You've shared one of the worst cases of alienation that unfolded over the years on these boards. Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids only goes so far, and same with Divorce Poison. At some point it comes down to the girls learning on their own if their choices are working for them. Successful alienation is really a sign how severe the BPD abuse has been, and that is a lot to take in when you measure your experience against what experts recommend. Sometimes we simply have the worst cases when we can't find help for our specific version of hell.

My stepson is going the de-alienation process at 24 and it is a different kind of heartbreaking. Having been alienated from H for the better part of a decade, SS24 is at the end of his rope living with BPD mom and willing to turn to his dad for support, as tentative as it is. With some help from his sisters and me, he is re-connecting with H, but it's ... odd. He'll be affectionate with H in one moment and then tell me that he can't be alone with H, it's too dangerous. Yet he doesn't act like someone who is afraid. There's no emotion to it, I'm guessing because it's based on the narrative he was told, versus one he experienced.

It's heartening to hear that you found support here and at the same time, your situation went to a different level. My sense from what you've shared is that perhaps the best option is to disengage with a letter, something they can reference as a touchstone? What are your thoughts on that path. If you see a therapist or can find one you trust, would you consider writing a letter to the girls with some input? Simply stepping away may overlook important parts of your own grief and steps to heal.

I have to accept and move on.  It is part of the grieving process and a stage that has taken years to get to, although I will never really recover from the loss of two daughters.

This makes me think of conflicting things. One is that you lost that time with them that can never be recovered. The other is that your daughters may come around, though probably (at this point) less by what you do or don't do. Your wife has done quite a number on their perception of who the normal-range parent is. Keeping your heart open to the possibility of reconciliation while healing can only be considered complex.

If I dont reach out it is a sign of me not caring.  If I do not send whatever requests for money that come then I am labeled a deadbeat.

 

What does your gut say to do here?

When SS24 was a minor, H was quite generous. We knew the affair partner was co-habitating with BPD mom in violation of the custody order but SS24 on principle gave money because he felt duty bound. It was the only way he could express anything resembling affection and H felt that was better than nothing. However, as SS24 comes out of the deep spell of alienation, H is better at offering reasonable suggestions when BPD asks for money. I would say H kind of earned the right to do that because he stayed involved through the years when he sent money, but that may also be specific to our situation. When BPD mom asks for money, H's approach is to help her problem solve other ways to get money, always offering something but not right away, and not the whole amount. This problem of finding reasonable solutions seems to drive BPD mom nuts, although that isn't H's intent. His main priority is to make sure the money goes to what it's being asked for, that it's the correct amount, etc.

Holidays, as you all know, are an even more difficult time of year to balance.  I post here from time to time just as a way of venting.  And I empathize with all of you going through similar dynamics.

 

It's important to vent with people who understand.

And share the good bits too, like your son's successes 

[ForeverDad]

Showing up at their extra curricular events causes significant drama since mom will be hauled off by the ER squad if she sees me line of sight (then I am accused of deliberately trying to kill her since I knowingly attended) - a lot of drama for a teenage to endure so they elect to not attend themselves, any event where I might attend (including my youngest 8th grade graduation - the principle even called and asked me to not attend due to the drama that would unfold!).  Blah blah blah.  It is remarkable the level of dysfunction.

Don't come?  How short sighted that principal was.  If that was me I would have told you to come early, sit in an area walled off and get a nice seat out of sight of the posturing mother.

[yeeter]

Don't come?  How short sighted that principal was.  If that was me I would have told you to come early, sit in an area walled off and get a nice seat out of sight of the posturing mother.

During divorce process, there was a lot of dialog with the judge about logistics of showing up in court with a partition so she wouldn't see me.  Etc.  Eventually the judge agreed to let her attend virtually but a pause was given to provide her time to put a yellow sticky over my face on her screen. 

One expert commented that after 30 years they have seen it all.  But this one is a new one for them

It is rarely good to be a corner case study...

[yeeter]

Thanks LnL for the comments.

The success is indeed my son and we are lucky to still have him.  DCF was called in the first time because mom told him to kill himself and then left the house.   So he made that attempt

Then another time later due to the home dynamics. 

But in the end nobody could help.  The system can not manage mental illness.  Ultimately he had to do it for himself and the psych ward counselors were helpful in setting boundaries with mom for him.  He has limited contact and has flourished.  A completely new person and doing fantastic in college. So nice to see

And fundamentally I believe my daughters are 'ok' .  I don't really know for certain, but seem to be in a much better place than my son was.   My oldest leaves for college next year which will expose her to different environments. 

So they are OK. My son is doing well.  Those are basics I am grateful for. 

And I am recovering myself from the relationship (while experiencing new trauma of losing my daughters)  mixed, but becoming my own person again.   With the help of this board and some screening, I was able to find a good T several years ago who has been helpful.  It has been many years on this journey, and there are many more to go.