BPD mother homeschooling Part 2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

A minor, slightly off-topic, note that one of the "usual" books has a brief section specifically dealing with maternal BPD and its desire but inability to homeschool. I'm not opposed to homeschooling, having been homeschooled myself as a child - so I don't share the common societal "omg kids need to get out of homeschooling asap!" bias...but at the same time, BPD is a particular beast and it's not "likely" a good idea to give it largely unchecked power over multiple facets of everyday life. The fact you're trying to rein it in right now to ensure your son's not burdened is great, but remember it won't be an easy long-term solution...as the guy earlier in this thread suggested, the constant vigilance is ultimately going to take a huge toll on you and him.

[PearlsBefore]

A minor, slightly off-topic, note that one of the "usual" books has a brief section specifically dealing with maternal BPD and its desire but inability to homeschool. I'm not opposed to homeschooling, having been homeschooled myself as a child - so I don't share the common societal "omg kids need to get out of homeschooling asap!" bias...but at the same time, BPD is a particular beast and it's not "likely" a good idea to give it largely unchecked power over multiple facets of everyday life. The fact you're trying to rein it in right now to ensure your son's not burdened is great, but remember it won't be an easy long-term solution...as the guy earlier in this thread suggested, the constant vigilance is ultimately going to take a huge toll on you and him.

[Couper]

Similar situation here and I finally transitioned my kids (D11 and D13) to public school.  Upon diagnosis, D13 has dyslexia.  Highly creative, good with math but stumbles on the reading portions and is behind grade.  It killed my uBPDw to transition, but I put my foot down as a matter of principle of “they need to live in the real world.”  She is credentialed primary and not middle.  So after a year of meltdowns, huge explosions, threats, and many other scary situations she acknowledges it was the right thing.  Went through some huge identity crisis for her during the last year - so be prepared when that time comes.  Getting help for the D13 now and it is working and reading is improving.  D13 and she were enmeshed and it was hard for both of them, but worth it.

Thank you for sharing your story.  I can't even imagine how I would execute such a thing here without some kind of third-party examination and legal intervention.  When my uBPDw isn't going to do something, she just isn't going to do it.  The word "compromise" is not in her vocabulary.  Still, I don't think I'm at that point yet, but your input is well-taken.

[Couper]

A minor, slightly off-topic, note that one of the "usual" books has a brief section specifically dealing with maternal BPD and its desire but inability to homeschool. I'm not opposed to homeschooling, having been homeschooled myself as a child - so I don't share the common societal "omg kids need to get out of homeschooling asap!" bias...but at the same time, BPD is a particular beast and it's not "likely" a good idea to give it largely unchecked power over multiple facets of everyday life. The fact you're trying to rein it in right now to ensure your son's not burdened is great, but remember it won't be an easy long-term solution...as the guy earlier in this thread suggested, the constant vigilance is ultimately going to take a huge toll on you and him.

Thank you for this.  I agree with your "unchecked power" comment.  Like everything to do with BPD, if only I had a crystal ball, I wouldn't be here at all right now. 

What is your suggestion for avoiding the huge toll?  Or is the huge toll the unavoidable price I've yet to pay for unknowingly having made a stupid decision 14 years ago? 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Couper,

Just curious if your uBPDw met with the educational therapist yet? Was wondering how things went.

Wools

[Couper]

Hi Couper,

Just curious if your uBPDw met with the educational therapist yet? Was wondering how things went.

Wools

Hi Wools.  Thanks for checking.  Yes, she went on Friday.  I have no clue how it went.  On the first day she didn't volunteer anything.  On the second day I asked her directly what questions she asked the ET (in the days prior when she said she had questions for the ET, I asked her what they were and she wouldn't tell me).  She kept on with what she was doing and wouldn't discuss, just saying there was a sheet in the folder I started and she had the questions written down there (she didn't know I had already seen the sheet).  The I asked her what the answers to those questions were and she's "too busy and would have to tell later".  It's like having an uncooperative witness on the witness stand.  I tired of it and haven't followed up again.

I suspect when with the ET she was a model citizen.  I've debated calling the ET to ask how it went, but it's like that crazy woman with the unicorn thing -- if the ET saw something different than what I've described witnessing at home, I'll probably get labeled the crazy one.  I guess I should have put a wire on my son before they went out there.   

She was sent back with new materials.  There was a card game the ET wanted him to start playing (I had already started the online version with him) and uBPDw was playing it with him that night.  He also has new discs to schedule and listen to and apparently she has set him up with that, but despite me being the one that got the ball rolling with this, she has shown no interest in telling me what the next steps are and is doing something with it on her own.

It's just like everything else.  I don't have a partner to work with so I'm kind of in the dark.

[Couper]

Hi Wools.  Thanks for checking.  Yes, she went on Friday.  I have no clue how it went.  On the first day she didn't volunteer anything.  On the second day I asked her directly what questions she asked the ET (in the days prior when she said she had questions for the ET, I asked her what they were and she wouldn't tell me).  She kept on with what she was doing and wouldn't discuss, just saying there was a sheet in the folder I started and she had the questions written down there (she didn't know I had already seen the sheet).  Then I asked her what the answers to those questions were and she's "too busy and would have to tell later".  It's like having an uncooperative witness on the witness stand.  I tired of it and haven't followed up again.

I suspect when with the ET she was a model citizen.  I've debated calling the ET to ask how it went, but it's like that crazy woman with the unicorn thing -- if the ET saw something different than what I've described witnessing at home, I'll probably get labeled the crazy one.  I guess I should have put a wire on my son before they went out there.   

She was sent back with new materials.  There was a card game the ET wanted him to start playing (I had already started the online version with him) and uBPDw was playing it with him that night.  He also has new discs to schedule and listen to and apparently she has set him up with that, but despite me being the one that got the ball rolling with this, she has shown no interest in telling me what the next steps are and is doing something with it on her own.

It's just like everything else.  I don't have a partner to work with so I'm kind of in the dark.

[Aralia]

Hi there.  I am new on these boards and really don't have much business chiming in, but I read your posts and am moved because my son had terrible dyslexia and a dd had dyscalculia.  Both of them were diagnosed pretty early in primary school, mostly because their dad has dyslexia as well and we were on heightened alert.  They both received a lot of educational support, but dyscalculia is not as common so support was harder to find.  What I wanted to share was this:  math anxiety is real.   When people are anxious, it shuts down a lot of their ability to do higher order thinking, and this is particularly apparent in math.    With dd, half the battle was getting her to calm down. If your ds is upset and saying he can't do something, even if he just did three problems of that very skill--it's true, he can't do it because his brain has shut down.  Their psychological state really does impact their learning and performance.  This is true even for neurotypical kids.

You are a good dad for getting your so the help he needs.

[Couper]

Hi there.  I am new on these boards and really don't have much business chiming in, but I read your posts and am moved because my son had terrible dyslexia and a dd had dyscalculia.  Both of them were diagnosed pretty early in primary school, mostly because their dad has dyslexia as well and we were on heightened alert.  They both received a lot of educational support, but dyscalculia is not as common so support was harder to find.  What I wanted to share was this:  math anxiety is real.   When people are anxious, it shuts down a lot of their ability to do higher order thinking, and this is particularly apparent in math.    With dd, half the battle was getting her to calm down. If your ds is upset and saying he can't do something, even if he just did three problems of that very skill--it's true, he can't do it because his brain has shut down.  Their psychological state really does impact their learning and performance.  This is true even for neurotypical kids.

You are a good dad for getting your so the help he needs.

Thank you for the kind words.  I wish I would have gotten him help sooner.  Years of his mother melting down on him surely did not help the situation.

You have every right to chime in and I'm glad that you did.  Just because you are new here does not mean you cannot make a valuable contribution.  Hearing from someone with real-world experience helps immensely.  What you describe about being able to do the work, and then not being able to finish the same work they already started, is exactly some of what I have seen here.

Are your kids grown up now and, if so, how are they faring in the real world with respect to this learning issue?   

[Aralia]

So for dd with dyscalculia, she is what brought me to these boards.  She was diagnosed with dyscalculia in second grade.  It is not that common but she had a very clear cut case.  No number sense meaning not understanding the concept that adding one to nine gets you to ten. She had a number line taped to her desk through fifth grade.  Learning the multiplication tables was a nightmare but she is musical and they invented songs.  We were fortunate to find a fantastic tutor who specialized in math learning disabilities.  Then on through middle school and high school and it was still a struggle but she had a diagnosis so she had accommodations and extra time which helped a lot.  A lot of her math LD was remediated--some of it will always be there, but she can do the work.  Two aspects of dyscalculia to also mention are a lack of spatial awareness--for years there wasn't a dinnertime when a glass wasn't knocked over.  Also following instructions.  I still remember the call I got the day the fifth grade did the origami project.  She did very well with the rest of her academics and was even able to do well in her high school math classes, albeit with a lot of support.  The things that hold her back now are all of her other issues, not the math. 

My son, who is a little older, was also diagnosed around second grade when he couldn't remember how to pronounce "the" for the hundredth time.  He wound up going to a special grade school for dyslexic kids and a regular high school.  He was never a good student in his academic classes but he excelled in his art classes.  He is studying art in college now.  However, that was just him, and there were plenty of other kids he went to grade school with who went on to study academic subjects.  One of his friends just started business school and the other graduated college with a degree in English literature.  These are kids who would use pdf readers and the whispersync features on audible books to get through their college reading.  So it can be done if there is an interest and desire.

But back to dd.  Around the time she was diagnosed with the dyscalculia, she began to exhibit really uncontrollable behavior.  Horrible tantrums, head butting, etc and also tremendous anxiety.  It is so hard to tell if all of the anxiety of having the learning disability brought this on--because kids made fun of her--or if it was just her separate biology starting to come out.  My son clearly had adhd and some clinicians thought she might too but the meds didn't agree with her at all.  Since if she had adhd it would be more the inattention type, the child psychiatrist we saw thought it might be anxiety and not actually ADD so it would be best to treat it with an anti-anxiety medication, and the one approved for children was zoloft.  So she was on zoloft for years and years and I really can't say whether it did anything for her or not.  A few years ago she was at a place that ran one of those genomic studies that showed she lacked the receptor that would make zoloft effective.  I don't know what to make of the medical rigor of the test except that it sort of validated our sense that the drugs have never really helped her.  Now she's on a different cocktail of medications and while I think they might help her not have debilitating depression, they aren't fixing the problem that she feels empty, isolated and unloved.  I could write a very long list of her wonderful traits and qualities and it would all be true, but she is also a difficult person who exhibits most of the classic bpd symptoms.  She actually diagnosed herself two years ago with bpd but there was some reluctance by her doctor at the time because she doesn't have the trauma usually associated with it, but other than that it fits perfectly.

So back to your son.  Maybe it is a full blown LD or maybe it is a little glitch easily smoothed over plus some stress/anxiety.  Simply the fact that you are addressing it is probably a huge relief for him.

[Couper]

So back to your son.  Maybe it is a full blown LD or maybe it is a little glitch easily smoothed over plus some stress/anxiety.  Simply the fact that you are addressing it is probably a huge relief for him.

Thank you for sharing all about yours.  You have certainly had your hands full and it provided me with some useful insight.  I don't think my son is full blown, nor easily smoothed over, based on the ET's evaluation.  It will take work, regardless.  The aggravating part is all these things take more work with the BPD influence factored in. 

[Couper]

I finally got her to talk about the new program last night.  In the days since I first asked, she hasn't offered on her own.  She read off the definitions of all the stuff related to it (that I've already been through with the ET) and I just let her talk.  Ask her again if she was on board with it, and she'd define more terms.  Ask her again if she was on board with it, "I already said that I was".  No, she didn't, but whatever.  Asked her if she was going to stick with implementing the schedule and she said that she would.

So, I guess now she's on board with it.  Time will tell.  It doesn't make me love her for it.  It's impossible for me to unsee all the rage and disorder and blame shifting that happened over the years every time I suggested that S12 needed outside help.

[Couper]

It was a pretty awful morning, but not for the reasons most would call such a morning awful.  A few weeks ago my uBPDw came to me and said, "We need x-$$$$ to pay the homeschool curriculum and it's due at the end of the week".  I kept it toned down as best I could but still pointed out here it something she knew about for months and now I get a big bill dumped in my lap and have to find an answer and told her I can only do what I can do with no warning and there was the usual round of excuses on her part.  I couldn't meet that deadline and the new her doesn't bring it up and I just let it ride until I could find a solution and I didn't have one.  Three days ago she proposes using PayPal and putting it on a credit card and I said fine, do whatever, but no matter what, she is always going to do whatever.

Just like with everything, I'm going back out to work at 10pm last night after I came in for water and she dumps a new problem in my lap that there is going to be a fee for using the credit card and now at the last minute she's coming to me for a solution.  I told her I don't have a solution for a problem that was just handed to me and that it's not fair to do this at the end of a night, hours before it is due, when I'm working when it could have been sorted out of the proceeding days.  So, I dumped it back in her lap and told her she can fix it, just like she dumps it in my lap to do and walked out.  

This morning she has $500 cash on the table.  She did part of it on the card and raided our kids savings to pay with cash to try and save 1/4 of the fee.  Didn't consult me.  Now the kids are aware which is embarrassing.  I'd rather she just paid the extra fee and kept them out of it but I guess I did dump it back in her lap.  In the past she'll take a situation like this to tell the world that we can't pay our bills and I mentioned that I don't want her telling the moms that (poor victim her) had to raid her kids savings.  It's a private money matter.  She didn't have to, but she'll use the opportunity to get victim points.  Well, I failed at being the better person by even bringing this up and probably shouldn't have because, again, she'll just say whatever she wants to whomever she wants regardless of anything she agrees to.  This set her off pretty good and down the rabbit hole we went of past grievances getting brought up.  Lots of projection, her even telling me that I changed this narrative and that narrative and so on and so forth.  I won't go into the details of every instance, called me a liar, but in doing so, tripped up over her own lies.

In a way it feels kind of good because my hope is that her head will just explode and I can move on from all of this.  What bothers me is it wasn't particularly loud, but my little girl was upstairs and heard ten minutes or whatever of this.  It never occurred to me that if she was in her room distracted that she would have caught any of it.  Of course, all of this made my wife late.  She's always late  because victims bask in the glory of always running in the door late, but knew she had to leave early to do something with the homeschool group at 9am and didn't wind up leaving until 9am.  She got so sucked into it that litigating this was more important than fulfilling her responsibilities.  When we parted, I went downstairs just to cool off and wait for my kids to come to the main floor to see them before they left, then I came back up.  My little girl came down all red faced and crying about how she doesn't like us fighting (this is a first for her so far as I know.  The fights are actually rare and usually I go above and beyond to make sure nobody is around).    Son was nowhere to be found until she called downstairs for him and he magically came up from where I just was.  He was collecting toys to take and apparently was hiding (play hiding from me when he heard me come down like he often does) in the laundry room.  No doubt when I was down there I was mumbling and venting to myself about what just took place and now I don't know what he heard and I can't remember what I said, and some of it was likely pretty awful.

On top of that, when they get back here in a bit they are taking off to her parent's until Sunday.  My son seemed unaffected, but I sure hope my daughter has bounced back because I really don't want to see her off under these circumstances.  Not to mention, I'm sure I just unwittingly gave her plenty of ammo for circling the wagons at this homeschool thing this morning. Just a week ago we took a daddy-daughter trip (that went from one day to three after having car trouble out of town) and our whole time together was fantastic.  Now she's taking them both for even more days and to her parents where her mother will lick all her wounds and provide more enabling.

Well, just heard the car pull up the drive.  I better go see what kind of nightmare I'm facing because for once she's probably going to pack at record speed and go.  I was looking forward to having a few days along and now this is a cloud hanging over it and it's all of my own doing.  I should have just kept my damned mouth shut, again, for the hundred-thousandth time.            

[Couper]

Well, thanks goodness.  They are both like nothing ever happened.  I know that doesn't mean some damage wasn't done and I know somewhere it still put a little cut in their hearts, but I'm grateful for not having to see them off for four days in the condition they were in several hours ago.  Kids are so resilient.

[kells76]

It is hard to see parental conflict impact your kids. Of course you don't want them around that.

The sense I'm getting is that you are in "survive until separation" mode? Is that accurate -- it's a matter of when, not if?

If so, what is the timeline?

It may be important to have a goal for yourself of how to make things the "least worst possible" for your kids until that point, and to problemsolve here how to make that happen (tools, skills, phrases, tactics, etc). Otherwise there is the real potential that "with the end in sight" (and I suspect your W can feel things shift, too) the adults have less energy and/or incentive to "play nice". Things like budget conflicts then balloon into bigger fights that impact your kids.

No doubt when I was down there I was mumbling and venting to myself about what just took place and now I don't know what he heard and I can't remember what I said, and some of it was likely pretty awful.

As obvious as it is, and I know you know that, the only party you have control over is you. So you can work with your end of things to make "your side" the least worst possible. It may be worth it to come back around to your son at some point and apologize. Something like: "Even though I felt upset, it wasn't right for me to say XYZ about your mom where you could hear. It's wrong for parents to say that kind of stuff about each other around the kids and I'm sorry. Next time I will [journal about my feelings, tell a friend privately, go on a bike ride, etc -- whatever you would want him to do if he's upset]"

This models to your kids that (a) everyone messes up, (b) it's OK to feel upset, (c) it is wrong for parents to put each other down in front of the kids, and (d) you're the kind of person who will try to learn and change.

...

This is tricky territory when you're still living together but not in the marriage. I'd strongly encourage you to get a timeline for wrapping things up, and/or find ways to keep conflicts either at a simmer/back burner vs big and in front of the kids... or find ways to not engage in issues that have the potential to turn into conflicts. This really isn't great for them, even though yes, they can bounce back in ways.

...

I'm saying all this pretty straightforwardly because I think you can hear it.

I also want to recognize that you did come here to post/vent, and that might be a good move going forward when you feel torqued out -- instead of doing the "basement mumbling" that your kids can hear, to get it out on paper here. Better for them long run.

Will wrap up with -- others here may have better specific ideas for handling budget issues when the marriage is pre-separation but not there yet. Also, member B2 is in a similar position right now too, so you can check out her posts to see where she's at.

[Couper]

Hi Kells,

Everything you said is right and constructive.

I think "when, not if" is a fair description.  There's not so much a timeline as there is a process.  I'm dead in the water until I get this property sold that the lawyer said I need to sell before he will move forward.  That's a difficult thing to do for a number of reasons, but I've been working on it every day.  It's not a cookie-cutter on a 1/4 acre lot kind of thing.  

I'm not even sure if my son heard anything at all and I don't know how to find out if he did.  I also don't want to raise the issue and make him aware of something he may not even know anything about.  When my daughter was playing later when they got home, she ran into the basement to hide and I found her in the hamper!  She was being really silly and happy, but I had gone down there hunting for her and saying funny things and when I did finally find her (didn't expect her to be in there) I asked her what she heard me say and she didn't hear any of it.  Since she did that, I now have a feeling her brother was in the hamper too and that's where she got  the idea.

My intention was good.  I went down there to cool off while waiting on my kids to leave and thought I was alone.  Also because I would be able to hear them coming down the steps because I thought both of them were two floors above me.

I spend all day, every day, trying to avoid conflict and am largely successful at it.  Today I failed.

Even the stuff I tried to exercise that I learned from here, it doesn't work with her.  It just escalates things because she won't let go.  No answer is ever good enough.  Like she tried to corner me with the common, "You won't acknowledge that the things you do hurt me" and I said, "I believe that you are feeling hurt", repeated each time, but that's not good enough because she wants to hear me say that I am intentionally doing things to hurt her and no other answer will satisfy her and, quite frankly, if I gave her that answer, that wouldn't satisfy her either.

The only thing that bothered me about any of it was the stuff with my kids.  As to the words we exchanged, it verified a lot of what I have been thinking -- with this "counseling" and the stacks of new self-help books (which she actually referenced herself) all she is doing is broadcasting to the outside world that she is fixed, but deep down inside she is still a nasty piece of work.  All she has done is found a band of enablers that are reinforcing all her own notions and supporting her belief that I am the boogey man.

If anything, I made it clear again that I'm not going to capitulate and let her reel me back in and maybe enough of it will get through her thick head that when papers are served, it won't be the absolute meltdown shock that it would be if I were faking it.    

Thanks again for your candid observations and input.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Couper,

I'm so sorry to hear about the conflict. I know it's discoraging and that you're trying to hang on and get your property with the loose ends tied up so you can move forward.

Kids are resilient. That being said, they're probably more aware of the discord than you know. I tried to keep certain things from my kids so that they wouldn't be aware of the conflict, but they told me things after the divorce that showed they were far more observant than I realized. Because of the example I saw with my uBPDm and dad, I was really careful to not share things with my kids like my mom did with us. Her sharing was far too much for a child to hear. That was the BPD side of her. Sounds like you're doing a good job of trying to love and enjoy your children and not burden them down. They so need that. 

I'm glad you posted what happened with us here. Kells shared some helpful thoughts about not being afraid to share with your kids that it's okay to have feelings, both the happy ones and the sad or angry ones if and when the opportunity arises. Just like your uBPDw doesn't want to hear your feelings, your kids may also not feel comfortable in acknowledging what they're feeling (they may have already learned this from her), so I think it's really good that your D shared how she was feeling sad. A parent with BPD doesn't encourage the kids to share what they feel, so you being the safe parent is doubly important.

Keep hanging in there, one day at a time.
Wools

[Couper]

Hi Couper,

I'm so sorry to hear about the conflict. I know it's discoraging and that you're trying to hang on and get your property with the loose ends tied up so you can move forward.

Kids are resilient. That being said, they're probably more aware of the discord than you know. I tried to keep certain things from my kids so that they wouldn't be aware of the conflict, but they told me things after the divorce that showed they were far more observant than I realized. Because of the example I saw with my uBPDm and dad, I was really careful to not share things with my kids like my mom did with us. Her sharing was far too much for a child to hear. That was the BPD side of her. Sounds like you're doing a good job of trying to love and enjoy your children and not burden them down. They so need that.  

I'm glad you posted what happened with us here. Kells shared some helpful thoughts about not being afraid to share with your kids that it's okay to have feelings, both the happy ones and the sad or angry ones if and when the opportunity arises. Just like your uBPDw doesn't want to hear your feelings, your kids may also not feel comfortable in acknowledging what they're feeling (they may have already learned this from her), so I think it's really good that your D shared how she was feeling sad. A parent with BPD doesn't encourage the kids to share what they feel, so you being the safe parent is doubly important.

Keep hanging in there, one day at a time.
Wools

Hi again!

Yes, I certainly don't want to expose the kids to any more than necessary.  As she got more intense and was lobbing grenades at me, she asked me, "Do the kids ask you why you sleep on the couch, why we don't smoochy kiss? (a phrase from one of their t.v. shows), because they see it."  I told her flat out no, neither one of them ever have.  I have often wondered if they do and I find it really odd that they haven't asked me, but given her history, I also wouldn't be surprised if it's something she made up to throw another dagger at me.  In a situation like that, there's simply no way for me to know if she is telling the truth or not.

When my daughter came down crying, I picked her up (I was really afraid she wouldn't let me, so it was a relief when that's what she wanted) and she said she didn't like hearing us fight and I apologized and told her that adult relationships aren't like kid relationships and sometimes things happen but that it was absolutely nothing to do with her and that seemed to help.  uBPDw had gone upstairs (to her bathroom-sanctuary where she spends so much time on the phone) and come down I think without even talking to her and she had to know she was upset.  She was probably expecting her daughter to console her as I 've seen similar such expectations in the past.  uBPDw is incapable of putting others first.

There may be some truth about how my kids acknowledge feelings related to observing their mother.  My daughter (the younger of the two) doesn't seem affected by this, but I think it explains some of my son's behavior.  I try to be very careful about looking for places to assign blame for everything that happens in life, because that's exactly what she does, and sometimes things just happen because it's a fallen world, but I have started to wonder if she's the reason for his learning and processing issues.  Knowing what I know now about when he was much younger and I wasn't working from home and he was alone with her a lot every day -- in her own words from journal entries, when I wasn't around, she was taking out her anger on him (not physically, but he was getting undeserved flack) and now that leaves me wondering.  I feel so awful that I've brought two children into the world with this monster as their mother.

However, yes, I do encourage them to share with me and often tell them that they can always come to me and they won't be persecuted for whatever they are feeling.  You don't get punished for feelings.

Interestingly enough.  They did not come back yesterday.  The calendar was not marked with Sunday as one of their days away.  Maybe that's a mistake, maybe she extended, but now part of me wonders if this is some of her passive-aggressive b.s.  When they arrived she texted that she got there safe and I acknowledged it.  Saturday night she sends me a picture from some little fair of my daughter holding up something she won and I acknowledged it.  Then silence after that.  When I took my daughter on that short trip recently, it was intended to be one night, but I had major car trouble when we were leaving and we were stuck there for two more nights.  Past experience tells me that she may be saying, "then I will keep them away for two more nights, too" but maybe it's a big nothing-burger.  That's the nightmare of living with someone whose default function is not to behave as a civil adult.  If I don't inquire, I'll be at fault.  If I do inquire, she'll disparage me for whatever she can cook up.  There is no point.

As to the budget thing Kells mentioned that I missed before -- I have the bill paying as under control as I can have it because a few months ago I took back everything to do with that and told her it is not her problem anymore because she was once again uncooperative about it.  However, I can't pay things I don't know about.  Every year this homeschool group has a new "leader" and the leader decides how tuition is paid.  Past years it has been credited out of their paychecks or some other thing that spreads it out over time.  This year they wanted 100% up front and she dumps it in my lap without warning.  I have to believe she had some warning, though, and I'm thinking this was another way for her to exercise control because since I took over paying the bills (which frees her up 100% to go argue with more people on the internet -- wouldn't most wives be happy to have a husband doing all the work?), she's often telling me how I'm doing all of that wrong (yet, everything is paid on time now and I know what the balances are in both accounts!).  Having kids with a partner is life was supposed to be a fun exercise.  Instead, she has to be an angry adversary in everything.  I suspect she did that to show me she still has some control, though it's another job she went out of her way to show she was incapable of doing well (more self-victimization).

Sorry for another rant.  Another hour of my life in the hopper on account of this lunatic.

[Couper]

After this post, she texted that they are heading back soon, so who knows what the real reason is and I don't really care to ask knowing that no matter how gingerly I do it, I have already been convicted of a crime that I didn't know I committed.

[Woolspinner2000]

She was probably expecting her daughter to console her as I've seen similar such expectations in the past. 

This...this is so common and heartbreaking to hear. My mom was this way. A pwBPD cannot soothe themselves like healthy people do, and they expect their kids to be the parent and soothe them. It's called parentification if you haven't heard the term. I'm glad that you're there to do what you can to balance your kids, Couper. They very much need you for this. Keep walking that be-as-healthy-as-I-can road for their sake and yours.

 
Wools

[livednlearned]

Bill Eddy once wrote that these are not just difficult relationships, they are the most difficult.

Knowing you are biding time until pulling the rip cord is probably taking a toll.

It's clear in your posts that you have tremendous contempt and disdain for her. It's hard to imagine validation working with her, so that particular skill probably won't work given how you feel about her.

I'm wondering if you could switch the focus to you and modeling healthy behaviors for your kids. Things like giving yourself a time out when someone gets under your skin. Or taking a mindfulness minute, a sort of vagal break for the nervous system.

Bill Eddy wrote Splitting about divorcing a BPD/NPD spouse, and many people here are familiar with that book. But he also wrote a book called Don't Alienate the Kids, which, while it's partly about coparenting after divorce, also focuses on what we, the not-disordered parents, can do to help our kids learn ways to be resilient.

A painful realization for me post-divorce is recognizing my own deficits. They were dwarfed by the issues my son's father brought to the table, but they are still things that affected my son's emotional well-being. I can't say enough about Eddy's book for giving me a positive guide forward on that front.

It made me realize how my response to n/BPDx's issues was just as important as the conflict itself.

If nothing else, it also gave me a focus on something I actually had control over.

[Couper]

It's clear in your posts that you have tremendous contempt and disdain for her. It's hard to imagine validation working with her, so that particular skill probably won't work given how you feel about her.

Yes, I would say this is a fair and accurate assessment.  Given the access I've had to factual information that proves her to be conscious of her lying and manipulation, I find it hard not to.  I know all of these relationships are unique and the standard default here is to say that BPD's believe the lies they tell, but I suspect if more of them kept the repository that mine did, they would find that not to be the case.  It's like marrying someone that has had her legs amputated below the waist, but successfully hid it, and not finding out until your wedding night that they are a double-amputee.  She knew it and she hid it, but then wants to say "you took vows" -- you can only vow to what you know and intentionally withholding information is its own violation of vows.  

I've tried validation in the past and it doesn't work.  She can invent so much negativity out of thin air that there is always a comeback.  Even with any genuinely kind and altruistic act I've tried to bestow upon her in the past before I reached this point, her standard response was to cast aspersions and generally dump all over it.  I have my limit and I've reached it.  She can go vaporize so far as I'm concerned.  The good part is that at least I'm not "trauma bonded", or whatever the phrase is that I see bandied about!    

I'm wondering if you could switch the focus to you and modeling healthy behaviors for your kids. Things like giving yourself a time out when someone gets under your skin. Or taking a mindfulness minute, a sort of vagal break for the nervous system.

I strive to do this most all the time.  The above-cited instance is one where I failed (albeit, I didn't know they were witnesses and, if I did, I would have walked away -- big house, lots of floors, didn't know).
  

Bill Eddy wrote Splitting about divorcing a BPD/NPD spouse, and many people here are familiar with that book. But he also wrote a book called Don't Alienate the Kids, which, while it's partly about coparenting after divorce, also focuses on what we, the not-disordered parents, can do to help our kids learn ways to be resilient.

Thanks.  I'll look into it.

Her parents are coming this weekend.  My daughter's birthday is Monday.  That also means some of the moms she has recently trashed me to and now snub me (on my own property) are coming.  I have come to believe that her mother has BPD traits but is not BPD.  She can be a nasty piece of work for no apparent reason.  Her father is a combination of weakling, but also highly self-absorbed, or maybe oblivious is more accurate.  When I was at my wits end with my son's learning problems last year (covered in the start of this thread that a moderator split in two for some reason unknown to me) I made the mistake last year of trying to get her mother to intervene, but all she did was throw gasoline on the fire by immediately running to her and repeating a bunch of privately said stuff.  It's funny because the issues I raised are all things that I now know she herself used to call out her own daughter for years before I was ever a blip on the radar screen, but now she has locked arms with her so no help there.  I wish I had understood how screwed up all these people are.  Various types of disorder seem to be infested in different layers of her family.  I didn't grow up around all this garbage and, quite frankly, I think the world would be better off if they were all marked with big scarlet letters.

      

[ForeverDad]

Her parents are coming this weekend.  My daughter's birthday is Monday.  That also means some of the moms she has recently trashed me to and now snub me (on my own property) are coming.

Now is the time to prep yourself.  Surely at some point during the visit you will be cast negatively, perhaps more than once.  Maybe subtle slights, maybe innuendos, how will you respond, if you respond at all?  Ponder that beforehand.  One lesson I learned with my ex, there will be little advance notice of a jab or nasty remark.  And too often it caught me off guard and unprepared, even unsure, how to respond.

Rarely did I came back with an adequate response.  And sometimes there is no great response, or a great response is not allowed.  This was with my ex's lawyer, alas, not in my ex's presence:

I had a two year divorce, the last step before the trial was scheduled was a Settlement Conference in my lawyer's conference room.  I recall beforehand, while in my lawyer's office, her lawyer came in, sat down and started talking, just the 3 of us.  One of the things he said was that he himself was divorced and he had alternate weekends (same as what I had during the temporary order).  He suggested that as something to agree with.  I said, "Sure, sounds good to me but I don't think Ms FD wants alternate weekends."   He was quiet after that.

By the way, that was one of the few times in my life where I had a wonderful answer at the right time.  I savored the moment.

[livednlearned]

That's good advice from FD.

I remember in a youtube video with Dr. Craig Childress he talked about the power of laughter. He was talking specifically about parental alienation but it can apply to any situation in which someone says something absurd. It's probably one of the more profound things I've learned these last ten years, trying to find skillful ways to deal with nuttery.

My son once read aloud a text his dad wrote him that more or less disparaged me. I felt this genuine bubble of laughter about the sheer ridiculousness of the charges. I remember catching a glimpse of my son's face. He had a look of ease and relief, and there was a smile on his face. Laughter neutralized what was supposed to be an intrusive text that sucked my son and I into dumb conflict.

Granted, you still live with your wife and have a lot of chess pieces to move before you can exit. It may not be possible to find levity in the situation. Maybe there is a way to get somewhere in your mind that allows you to feel almost ... vindicated (not sure that's the right word) when your in-laws and wife set up for conflict. Study them like you're an anthropologist learning about their customs. A therapist once told me to do that with my family (although I wasn't living with them at the time, so it was a bit easier to do, I imagine).

It can be very freeing to see what roles people expect you to play, and then to surreptitiously change that role in a way that removes you from the game.

[Couper]

Thanks FD and LnL.  These are all good points to review.  It's not my first rodeo, though.  This has been going on for years.  It would all depend on the situation.  As I said, my f.i.l. is a wimpy loser type.  He rarely starts anything face-to-face.  Back in the safety of his home, he'll whine about what a victim he is.  My m.i.l. is either passive-aggressive (thinking she's being clever, but she's not that smart) or she will go back to her hometown (half of which is their family) and badmouth me within her own circle.  Quite frankly, I think many of those people saw all of the disorder from years before I came along and don't put much stock in them (seems they don't get all the invitations they used to).  Some years ago I found out that she went around doing this and also did it with who was then my uBPDw's best friend from childhood (she doesn't confide in her anymore because she's too fair and objective and has told her she won't take sides because she hasn't seen it).  My m.i.l. was bragging to people about how she was passive-aggressively undermining me in my own home after my son was born and the friend told her, "That doesn't work on him.  You cannot intimidate him and you're just going to make things harder on yourself.  He can see through what you're doing."  That was a great compliment!

If there are bunch of kids around during the party and she pulls something, obviously I'll just keep my mouth shut, but under any other circumstances, I have no problem chopping her off at the knees.  Or dismissing her outright.  Or whatever the situation calls for to render her irrelevant, and like you said you can never really know how to go about it until the opportunity presents itself.

What will be more interesting is one mother will be the one my uBPDw started trashing me to only in the last year and this person is the one that hooked her up with the kook "counselor" that isn't a counselor.  Prior to this, we got along very well.  Last year she was here and gave me the cold shoulder under my own roof just like I was married to her and I knew something was up.  I've had my suspicions that they were two peas in a pod (I have witnessed her being very inwardly focused and she may be BPD herself) and I'm wondering if I'll still get the silent treatment.  The temptation to say , "Gee, have I done something to offend you?" might be too great to resist.  Maybe you'll tell me I shouldn't.  It's pretty poor form to hang out in someone else's home and treat them like that whether you like them or not.