possible to end estrangement without going back to unhealthy pattern?

[Channing]

Hello,

I have been estranged from my UBPD mother for about five years. I am blamed for the estrangement even though, from my perspective, it was her choice.

My mother has a life long habit of spreading vicious gossip about family members to other family members. It's like her life blood and when she does not have anything to gossip about, she gets depressed.

I overheard my mother saying particularly unpleasant things about me and my son to her brother (my uncle). After that, I stopped telling my mother personal things and only exchanged pleasantries with her. I continued to send her gifts for birthday, Mother's day etc but did not tell her anything gossip worthy about my life. She began objecting to this and demanded to know why I wasn't "talking" to her anymore. When I stood my ground, she stopped speaking to me. I continued to send her gifts but then stopped when she sent me an angry email denouncing me for being a hypocrite for sending her gifts when I "don't speak" to her. So, we are fully estranged now and I do not speak with her at all or send her any gifts.

Since then, my mother has painted herself as my victim to anyone who will listen to her -- my son, my ex-husband, my siblings, etc. She claims I "hate" her and sent me a series of angry text messages and emails that rant on and on about what a hate filled and selfish person I am. I ended up blocking her phone number and email but she still sends me post cards and letters.

When I reflect on this situation it has occurred to me that I had no desire to be estranged from my mother or to be involved in any conflict with her. I just did not want to tell her anything personal because I did not want to be the subject of any more vicious gossip.

Is there a way to amicably resolve this situation? It is hard on my kids as they receive self pitying cards and letters from grandma and I know the estrangement makes them uncomfortable. Also, my mother is in her 80s and I would like to be available to help her if there is an emergency. On the other hand, I don't want to give up the peace, privacy and sanity I have gained by not having her involved in my life.

[zachira]

Your mother is not going to change. If you choose to end the estrangement with her, you will have to set very strict boundaries with her and her enablers. From my own experiences, with my mother with BPD (now deceased) and other disordered family members, the more contact I have with them, the more distressing it is for me. Like you, I wish it were possible to end estrangement (and low contact for me in some cases), without going back to unhealthy patterns, and it is not going to happen because the disordered family members will be scapegoating me and others forever to not have to look at how terrible they feel inside.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Channing,

This is something I've thought about in the past few days.

I am currently estranged from my mother and I keep thinking that there is no future for us where it will ever be healthy... And I think that the fact that we are currently estranged right now will remain at the center of the future dynamic if there ever is any...

She will never forgive me for speaking the truth about what she did and let happened to me as a child.

She will never forgive me for giving her back her blame and calling her out on her entitlement and lack of empathy.

She will never forgive me that while we are currently estranged, she is not seeing my children grow up, during the years that she likes and cherishes the most.

This last point... I know she will forever resent me for my need for space to heal, and for not giving her access to my young children.

And so to answer your question : they are BPD...it is a PD, they did not and will likely not seek treatment any time soon. For us to be on this website, they have likely the real deal, with all the cluster B behaviors. So they won't change.

If you want to have a relationship with your mother, Zachira is right that it can only be achieved with strong boundaries and greyrocking. Also to lower your expectations (best to have none) and radical acceptance.

My heart goes out to you. I understand where you are coming from. I didn't wish for any of this, and I also do not wish to fight my mother. I hate that I hurt her so, but then, I also am hurt, and in the end, the only one I have the power to help is myself.

[beatricex]

hi channing,
Your Mom ranting about what a hate filled and selfish person you are is a projection.

Let's break this down
1. you neither wanted this estrangement nor initiated it
2. choosing to only share pleasantries with her you reinforced good boundaries
3. you worry about the impact on your kids

By "solve this situation" do you mean get back to sharing pleasantries and reinforcing your boundary?  I think she would take you back in almost any past version of you, it's been 5 years.  The driving force behind BPD's behavior is fear of abandonment.  They will do almost anything to lesson that pain. 

I guess I'm less sure about the impact this may have on your kids. You'd be modeling "it's OK to compromise my value (I value people respecting me such that they don't gossip maliciously about me)."  I'm not sure this is the reason to go back.  The reason to go back is to see if your Mom has changed, correct?

let me know if I'm way off here

b

[Channing]

Thank you for all of the helpful and empathetic responses. It helps to not feel alone in this bizarre situation. I think one of the reasons I would like to "resolve" the estrangement is that my older child (S18) is quite religious and is very uncomfortable with the fact that I do not speak to my mother. He talks about the commandment to honor your father and mother and makes comments about the importance of family and forgiveness.

During his childhood, I tried to protect him from my mother's behavior and so he does not know her well. Unfortunately, because he really does not know her he can't understand why we don't have a relationship. My son is also under constant pressure from my ex husband to socialize with my mother when he is visiting his dad (who lives out of state).

My ex husband also uses this situation to try to paint me as a bad person when he is with my son. I guess I am tired of all of the triangulation and manipulation of my son. My hope is that if the estrangement ended (went back to pleasantries and gifts) that some of the drama with my son and his dad will end too.

Maybe the real solution is to have a more open and frank conversation with my son about his grandmother? I dread doing that. My son is a very kind and loving person and he has his own struggles (he is not neurotypical). I don't want to tell him about grandma's behavior when I was growing up because it was so ugly and I think it would shock him.

[zachira]

Your son is old enough to be able to go see his grandmother on his own. I am not suggesting this, as she would probably be like your ex husband, finding whatever means she can to paint you black to your son. Would it be enough to say to your son that you don't have a relationship with your mother because of the kind of person she is and you have not had her in your life because you wanted to protect your children from being treated the way you were?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Maybe the real solution is to have a more open and frank conversation with my son about his grandmother?

As much as we love our children and want to protect them from the world, we live in a world filled with many good hearted people, but also with abusers and with traumatized people who hurt others as a mean to survive their own inner struggles.

I think having an open and honest discussion with your son is a good idea. He is old enough to understand, and it could serve him to know about proper boundaries, and that sometimes, cutting contact or being estranged does not mean we don't love or honor our parents... It sometimes is the only way to properly honor them.

It is counter intuitive, but true. I love my mother more at a safe distance, and can understand her more too. When close to her, it triggers my trauma and hate... Honoring her is also about keeping a healthy vision of her, a healthy understanding, an emotional detachment that keeps me from wanting to hurt her like she hurt me...

[Turkish]

The driving force behind BPD's behavior is fear of abandonment.  They will do almost anything to lesson that pain.  

The underlying emotion for a pwBPD is feeling worthless and unlovable.

Channing: the Good Book also says, “Do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord” (Eph. 6:4 NKJV). Paul quotes the 5th Commandment in the previous two verses.

I'd say that almost all of us struggle with the concept of the 5th Commandment no matter our religious traditions or lack thereof.

[madeline7]

I am LC with my very elderly uBPDm. In my experience, she does not have the capacity for accepting my boundaries, me grey rocking. She is a highly manipulative and vindictive and thrives on drama. With 2 stretches of NC, I have settled into a LC mode, being that she is very old, and has somewhat lost her power over me and my siblings now that she is in a residential care facility.
I have 2 adult children. One is sensitive, yet understands that grandma is mentally unstable. The other adult child want little to nothing to do with grandma, having seen how she has treated me and other family members over the years. I have spoken to both kids and explained what BPD is, how grandma cannot help herself, and how at this point, I am taking care of myself since I am now a senior myself. Both kids are aware and grateful that I am not like my mother, both feel bad for my situation. One has more compassion for grandma than the other. Children are intuitive, and your son will hopefully grasp the situation, will likely feel compassion like my sensitive child. And this is not to say that my other child is not sensitive, she is angry with grandma for not getting the help that she has been offered and continuing to stir the pot and lash out. In many ways, I wish I was more like my adult daughter, and then I may have set boundaries earlier in my life and avoided all this toxicity.

[Methuen]

I think one of the reasons I would like to "resolve" the estrangement is that my older child (S18) is quite religious and is very uncomfortable with the fact that I do not speak to my mother. He talks about the commandment to honor your father and mother and makes comments about the importance of family and forgiveness.

My ex husband also uses this situation to try to paint me as a bad person when he is with my son. I guess I am tired of all of the triangulation and manipulation of my son. My hope is that if the estrangement ended (went back to pleasantries and gifts) that some of the drama with my son and his dad will end too.

Maybe the real solution is to have a more open and frank conversation with my son about his grandmother? I dread doing that. My son is a very kind and loving person and he has his own struggles (he is not neurotypical). I don't want to tell him about grandma's behavior when I was growing up because it was so ugly and I think it would shock him.

Your son is 18.  You have protected him from the truth.  You have your reasons.  I am sorry he is putting pressure on you to renew contact  with your mom.  He doesn’t know what he is asking.  If he did, he probably wouldn’t ask it.

At some point in his life, you can probably slowly start to share the truth.  The question is “when is the right time”? Is it now, or later?

The risk I see in telling him now, is that if he shares this information with his father, his father could invalidate all that.  Does your ex know your history with your mom?  Why does he press his son to go visit her?  It seems his motivation is to paint you black.  

If you told your son your truth, do you think he is mature enough to process that?  And to understand your suffering?  And would he be willing to challenge his own thinking about the “honor thy parents” dogma?

We told our kids when they were in their 20’s, and had launched from the home nest and demonstrated through their own life choices that they were ready to hear about her undiagnosed mental illness.  They knew her well enough to know it all fit.  We had an idea  when the time was right to share this info, for both them and us.  We also have strong and healthy relationships with our kids, so they accepted it, and are able to manage their time and relationship with her, while still supporting  H and I. We’re very lucky.  We try to involve them as little as possible, and we deal with her behaviors and drama ourselves.  My mom is 86, refuses assisted living, makes terrible choices, and is self destructing because of it.  I don’t want my kids to have to be involved in that. I don’t want them to feel obligated to be her caretaker even though she is a montrous WAIF and tries to make everyone her caretaker.  

This is probably what your mom would do too, given the opportunity (make him her caretaker).  Your son is kind of vulnerable to her manipulation because of his “honor the parent” thinking.  Is he a “rules based” thinker, or does he understand every rule has an exception?  “I before e except after C” kind of thing?  Shades of grey?

You are wondering if it is possible to go back to a superficial relationship with your mom with gift exchanges but no exchange of personal info?

Has she “grown “ in any way to give you reason to believe the outcome would be different this time?

Maybe try thinking of it this way:  You go out to start the car but the car won’t start.  You keep trying because you have somewhere you need to be.  But as many times as you try the car won’t start.  Why do we keep trying, and expect a different result?  

It’s all very complicated.  And it sucks.

I think it makes sense to slowly share your truth with your son when you think he has the maturity to process it and support you.  We can’t protect them from forever.  It would be good if he could keep your information to himself and not share it with others including his dad or grandmother.

Ultimately, by putting your needs first and managing your own well being, you are role modelling healthy choices, even if he doesn’t yet know that.

Just my thoughts.

[WalkbyFaith]

The "honor thy parents" commandment is a really tricky one for those of us who believe the Bible but find ourselves in this type of situation.

Something I heard recently that was helpful to me was along the lines of what Riverwolf said (that being estranged doesn't mean you're not loving / honoring your parents) -- It is not "honoring" to excuse their bad behavior, or in more religious terms, to ignore their sin. The more honoring thing to do is to call them out on it and call them to change, to something better. We all know our bpd parents are unlikely to change but the truth remains - it is neither loving nor honoring to a person to just ignore or excuse that they have a problem and let them continue in it with no accountability.

[Notwendy]

Being that your son is young, and on the spectrum, he's likely to look at these Biblical rules literally. They are absolutely important for the backbone of ethics, but actually, like all laws, the circumstances are considered.

For instance- you shall not kill/murder ( depending on translation). However if someone is actively trying to kill you, you are allowed to defend yourself even if that causes harm to the killer.

I used to think that "honor your father and mother" was synonymous with obey your father and mother. It would be in general, if you are able and willing to do it and it doesn't cause you harm or violate an ethical rule.  If your parent asked you to rob a bank or steal something- you should not obey that parent.

Honoring a parent does not mean you should enable them. If your parent was an alcoholic and said "bring me a beer"- you don't obey that, because it's not in their best interest to do that. Likewise, you don't allow your parent to abuse you, because then, you enable them to not act according to their higher selves.

You are allowed to defend yourself from physical and emotional harm. If your parent is abusive to you, then how can you honor them and also protect yourself?

I struggle with this a lot. I do want to honor my mother. Like you, I don't give her information to gossip about. She's not happy about that, but also I feel that there needs to be boundaries on what is private to me, and she does not keep things confidential.

I still talk to her but I have to have boundaries.

Our relationship isn't "normal" but I try to do the best I can with it.

I do worry about what kind of example my kids might be seeing, but also, they are old enough to understand mental illness and BPD. I try to explain it in more factual terms to be careful to not be badmouthing her. I also think they've seen me struggle with doing the best I can to honor her with also having to have boundaries and it's OK to let them see that because they can see I try, if not always getting it right.

I too was willing to help my elderly mother but she makes it difficult. Be careful to not be expected to neglect your own needs in order to meet her demands. PW BPD don't have emotionally healthy boundaries- and you need to have them, even if she doesn't like that.

[Channing]

I appreciate all of the thoughtful comments and the shared experience.

Methuen, you raised some questions about my son's father's involvement in all of this. Before our divorce (more than ten years ago) my ex husband rarely interacted with my mother. After I became estranged from my mother, she began contacting my ex-husband and they formed a weird alliance. I started receiving threats (via my older sister) that Mom and my ex would turn my son against me. At the time, I thought the threats were silly as my ex husband had moved across the country and spent very little time with our son.

However my son has a lot of anxiety about maintaining a relationship with his dad. He calls his father nearly every day, sometimes multiple times. My son has told me that his dad sometimes says "bad things" about me (about the estrangement and other things) and he does not respond because he does not want to get into a fight with his father.

Even though my son's dad has been absent for the majority of his life, my son also insists that he has equal regard for both of his parents. He maintains this perspective even though his dad (who is very well off) literally cut him off financially the day he turned 18.

I think one of my worst fears is that after struggling to raise my son on my own (which has been quite a challenge given his medical needs) that my ex and my Mom will eventually succeed and actually alienate him from me. He is vulnerable to manipulation because of his neurological differences. I think that is why this estrangement bothers me and why I want it to end. Maybe that is irrational or paranoid?

[Notwendy]

I don't think you are being paranoid. My BPD mother has tried to triangulate my H and my kids against me, and my H is still married to me! Fortunately he thinks this is creepy. However I can see this becoming more easy for her to do if we were not married.

After my father died, she triangulated her family against me. She also disowned me with the intention of continuing a relationship with my kids. I was very scared she might succeed, after all, she did succeed in doing this with my father before he died. Some of her FOO tried to contact my kids too. I was so afraid.

Fortunately, my kids were able to observe directly, some of her behaviors. They didn't want to get too close to her after that.  I'd like to think I had enough of a bond to them that they wouldn't turn against me but I also assumed the same for my father but he did.

I fully believe that pwBPD can split families and will do it if they can.

At this point though, your son is an adult. It's going to be hard to circle the wagons around him. Since he has traits on the spectrum, he may not understand the full picture of what is going on. He surely doesn't want to be pulled between two family members, especially his parents.

I don't think breaking estrangement is going to stop your mother from trying to triangulate. There is the idea of "know your enemy". If you think it's better for your son that you at least give the impression you are "honoring your mother" that might be something to consider, but you need to also guard your feelings and privacy even if you do.

[beatricex]

hi again Channing,
My Mom also has BPD, and I think that puts us in the unique category of feeling "irrational and paranoid" a lot.  But only about her and her behavior (or those people she's actively influencing), we are not paranoid in general.  Through many life experiences with our BPD parent we have learned that survival depends on that hyper vigilence.  Unfortunately, it has real effects on the body and eventually mind, like increased cortisol production.  Fight or flight mode means our bodies are under almost constant stress from thinking about this.

https://positivepsychology.com/emotion-regulation-worksheets-strategies-dbt-skills/?msID=814ff226-0b6c-4004-bd3c-a99cac8c5269

I found the article above really helpful.  Also, talking to other daughters of Mom's with BPD.  I think what has helped me the most is working on my own emtional dysregulation, which I believe is learned.

I have grandkids, and I wish to model good behavior for them, so working on myself seems the simplest thing I can do and is a distraction from constantly worrying what Mom might do next.  One is within my control entirely.  The other - who she will turn against me, what might happen next - is out of my control.

What I really like about these worksheets is they teach us how to change our thinking to change how we feel.  I do feel that modeling that to a kid is perhaps more valuable than quoting something out of the bible.  I mean, the kid is going to need these skills, as his Dad and grandma hate on other family members. 

b

[Notwendy]

I think beatrice has some great advice- we do need emotional regulation skills. I also think we have good reason to not be too trusting of a BPD parent so being wary is a learned reaction.

As to Bible quoting. I got the impression that it's the son, who has ASD traits who is more about that. I agree that children learn more from a parent role modeling than what a parent says to them. In fact, if the parent is teaching a religion, they form their ideas about God from watching their parents. If a parent is kind, loving, and forgiving, they assume God is too. If the parent is cruel and judgmental, they see God as that. One of the things we work on in 12 step CODA groups is if a child was raised with a "gotcha God" a cruel and unforgiving one as role modeled by their parents and how to form their own ideas about religion from an adult perspective.

Growing up with a critical and unforgiving mother, I feared the same thing about God, but my mother was not religious. She didn't quote the Bible. Somehow I found it on my own as a kid and for me, it provided a sense of order. My home was chaotic. But kids are also literal, they don't understand the nuances of these ideas and interpret them in a limited way, as their world view is limited.

For your son, people with ASD tend to be rigid and rule bound as a way to cope with a world that doesn't always seem orderly to them. Rules and routines reduce their anxiety. This may be why he is using them so rigidly. Your son is also being mathematically rigid with his father. Must give equal time to both parents. He has anxiety about his relationship with his father and so being rigid about that could be how he manages it.

A person's ideas about God are personal. They are inevitably filtered through the way a person sees the world. Your son will see things as he can. Ultimately we decide our own views about religion for ourselves. I think a focus on role modeling emotional regulation can help here as well.

[Couscous]

Hi Channing,

This is a very challenging situation, and I fear I may find myself in your shoes in about 10 years…

The bottom line is that your mother (who sounds more like an NPD than BPD) is emotionally blackmailing you. Since she is the one who has initiated the estrangement, and has made it very clear that she does not tolerate boundaries, the only thing that will appease her is your complete capitulation and a reversion to the status quo. This would be a Faustian bargain if ever there was one, and even then, there would be no guarantees that she would not still attempt to turn your kids against you.

That being said, a possibility to consider would be for you to reinitiate cordial contact, and send her birthday and holiday cards, and maybe call her on those days and leave a friendly message if she doesn’t answer. To me this is not appeasement, which is fear-driven, but rather, a smart, tactical move. This way you will be acting with integrity while holding firm on your boundaries, which is exactly the kind of role-modeling your kids need to see from you.

Wishing you all the best.

[livednlearned]

I think one of my worst fears is that after struggling to raise my son on my own (which has been quite a challenge given his medical needs) that my ex and my Mom will eventually succeed and actually alienate him from me. He is vulnerable to manipulation because of his neurological differences. I think that is why this estrangement bothers me and why I want it to end. Maybe that is irrational or paranoid?

It may also be a symptom of what you've experienced, being the target of two people who are comfortable triangulating.

Your son insists it is important to honor mother/father. Is it possible he is actually fortified against estrangement in a way?

Your ex has had little to do with your son and is not financially supporting him. It sounds like he has a solid record for not showing up in any genuine way.

My son is on the spectrum, too, and he is delightfully blunt. Is your son like that? I find it creates many opportunities to guide him because he shares his thinking very pointedly with me. He's a natural contrarian so I rarely get agreement in conversation but looking at the big picture, he has internalized many of my more nuanced perspectives to the point he will present it as his own, having mulled it over.  

This isn't to say whether or not to break the estrangement, only to say that if you do so, it's best to do it from a place of wanting what is best for you.

Otherwise you will have been seduced into the drama triangle, potentially re-victimizing yourself.

I broke an estrangement with my father (golden child, misogynist) and with my uBPD brother after 7 and 10 years respectively.

What helped is having no illusions that things would be different. No expectation we would talk things out. No hope that family members would put my safety or needs first, or even acknowledge them. What had changed in the interim was me. I have a support system, a decade of therapy to make sense of my FOO, the ability to set the duration for visits, where we meet and with whom, and a radical acceptance that borders on disturbing, in the sense that I am absolutely clear I have no power nor agency in my family.

There is no point trying to fix things because that was part of the dysfunctional role designated for me.

With your example, it seems there is a possibility of allowing three people to kick you in order to preserve a relationship with one -- he happens to be the one who feels it is important to preserve relationships at all costs so his alienation seems unlikely although you will know best how much his actions align with his beliefs.

Another strategy is to help your son see that honoring your mother can also mean not dysregulating her. Your presence in her life dysregulates her -- it's part of the way her mind works. The closer she is emotionally to someone, the more upset she feels. You honor that by giving her a greater chance to remain regulated even if she cannot recognize that.

How might your son respond if you gave him information about the fraught nature of your relationship with your mom, and ask him to brainstorm ways to stay connected in light of the challenges? My son is very black/white in his thinking and it seems to be at the root of some of his naivete even though he's exceptionally bright. I have to pose questions in order to get him to explore some of the gray areas. He has pat answers but I know he is not certain of his answers, and I am learning to trust that these conversations do move things forward albeit slowly.

As I understand it, developmental growth is different for people with ASD in that there can be tremendous growth in a short period of time, versus a little bit of constant growth over a longer period. My stepson is also on the spectrum and there was a quantum leap between 21 and 22 that surprised all of us.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that you look at your concerns about your son's impressionable nature separate from concerns about your mom's issues, since reaching out (subjecting yourself to abuse) may not be a one-to-one solution for the problem (preventing alienation), if that makes sense.

And about your ex disparaging you - the best advice I received (my son's father is BPD) was to ask my son how he felt. He would parrot n/BPD, "Dad said you love the dog more than us."

The best response is, "Wow. How did you feel when he said that?"

That's the language that can help move us to the center of the triangle. It may not work every time but it's the key to disarming these set-ups where we're sliding around on banana peels. My son is so habituated to this question that he answers it before I ask more often than not.