Knowing Who is who

[zachira]

I am finding that so many people aren't who they appear to be. I do best with people who do not know my family at all or who were friends of my deceased brother who was a decent person. Most people linked to my NPD sister, BPD brother and narcissistic extended family members seem to be narcissistic just like them. I am learning a lot about making friends and who I can trust. It seems there is a kind empathetic connected feeling around healthy people contrasting with feeling unsure about myself with the people who don't turn out to be authentically nice people usually when I first meet them. I need to learn to trust my gut feelings more. I am mostly NC or LC with my large extended family and the people they surround themselves with. I am working on being the best person I can be, as that works best in connecting with the right kind of people and discouraging the wrong kind of people. I often say that you are not really friends until you see how disagreements go. My biggest challenges seems to be trauma bonding with the wrong kind of people and feeling worthy of the right kind of people. I find myself so behind in having the kind of life skills that so many fine people have. What are your experiences in knowing who is who?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Zachira,

It is interesting that you are posting this question today.

Yesterday I watched this video : https://youtu.be/BLWZ8UOiMUk

I think the best thing you can do is not to wonder who is who, but to be yourself around everyone, to be authentic. Then narcissistic people won't be as interested in you, while other authentic people will be and come to you.

We need to trust our guts, this is true, we need to be true to ourselves. If we feel uncomfortable, then we can leave. Whether the source of our discomfort is the person we are with or not doesn't matter... As long as we care for ourselves, unhealthy people will steer away from us..the cleanup happens naturally as we clean up ourselves.

[Notwendy]

We talk about BPD splitting but I think people do that to some extent at a milder level. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt- almost everyone is nice to others at first impression, ( if they weren't it would be obvious to stay away) but then as I get to know them, if concerning behaviors emerge, I would be wary. So it's not an all good or all bad like a split, but if someone shows another side of them and it's concerning, we probably won't be friends.

I think it's really hard to know "who is who" in a short time. I like Maya Angelou's quote- "when someone shows you who they are--- believe them". I see this can go both ways. Sometimes I will learn that someone is generous with others, but they may be modest about it and I don't know all the things they do at first- people who are very kind and charitable often don't call attention to themselves with it. Or if someone has been cruel or selfish- I then know they are capable of that.

I have been wrong too. I met someone who was abrupt and made some odd comments ( not inappropriate but odd). Didn't think I'd like them at all. Turns out, this person is on the spectrum and has no mean intent at all. It's just that they are quirky. Then another social, attractive, and popular person I met is not trustworthy. Agrees to something and then does something else. There is nothing unusual about my interactions with either of them- we get along on a casual level- but I feel I can trust the first person and not so much the other one. My first impressions of both of them were not accurate.

Recently though, I was introduced to someone and after even 10 minutes, I felt creepy. It's like every "alarm" bell went off and it turns out this woman is very disordered. I think this is a trust your gut thing. Something about her alerted me, even not on a completely conscious level. The conversation was not out of line, but there was something about her interactions that didn't seem OK.

I think we also need to forgive ourselves if we don't see it. I think some people are that good at presenting what they want others to see. One of my friends- smart, independent- woman fell for someone who turned out to be a narcissistic player. There was no way to know this until someone was involved with him. I knew him casually and there was no way I could tell that. Being that I was married and not interested- he didn't use his charm on me, but once my friend shared her experiences with him- I could see him being charming to other women if we were in a group and he was good at it. So sometimes we don't know until we do- and as Maya Angelou says- believe them.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Zachira,

Now that I've been in a safe place for a while and my whole body is resting, I am able to look at relationships beyond those that gave me such trouble, like those with my uBPDm and my exH. I think subconsciously I hadn't realized that I usually surround myself with my safe circle of people, but that became much more apparent to me when someone different entered into that circle in the past weeks.

Suddenly I found myself to be a bit unsure of this new friendship. The gal is very friendly, and I think she is fine, but then every once in a while I catch myself saying, "Wait, was that okay what she said? Do I need to be concerned? Am I just over reacting?" I'm unsure if there's this ability to more deeply trust this person. Like you, I realize I didn't learn those skills of what healthy is like. Perhaps it is healthy and there's the allowance of knowing they're human at the same time. I don't have the answers yet, but I'm in the same school of learning. It's scary to venture out to meet new people and risk ourselves. We've good reason to be cautious.

We have come so far. We'll continue to grow and learn.

 
Wools

[Couscous]

My solution to this issue is to attend Al-Anon and try to make friends with people who have been in the program for a while and seem to have some amount of recovery under their belt.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
I am a big fan of Dr. Ramani and have seen the video on authenticity. I agree with you that being authentic does make authentic people more likely to be interested in us and does make the narcissistic people less interested in us. My challenge is I show too much of myself before I find out who it is safe to be authentic with and how authentic I can be. There is nobody we can totally be authentic with, and we all have to tell white lies at times so as not to hurt another person's feelings or to put ourselves in the position of being the target of a narcissist. My experience with some malignant narcissists is they do everything they can to get even with the people who do not worship them they way they would like. There are people I still have to deal with on a regular basis who are narcissists. I have a lot of work to do on my own emotional regulation, codependency, and having healthy boundaries.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Yes, sometimes we don't know until we do who is who. My challenge is being way too open with people before I get to know them. I have lots of work to do on managing my emotions and codepency so I get to know people more at a normal healthy pace.

[zachira]

Woolspinner2000,
I have so much respect for you in how you have gotten divorced and made a better life for yourself. I agree with you that we are a work in progress. I like that you are honoring your feelings about how you feel about this gal. The biggest clue to me about what kind of person I am dealing with from the moment I meet them is how I feel inside. Do I feel like I can connect with this person and that there is some geniune empathy on their part or do I feel uneasy for some reasons I cannot explain? I find truly authentic people a joy to be around, and except for children, there are not many people who are truly happy and comfortable in their own skin, yet those who are show with their relaxed comfortable body language and genuine interest in others that this is who they are.

[zachira]

Couscous,
There are truly some people who have been in recovery for many years, from many things including alcohol, codependency, narcissistic relationships, etc., who have done lots of hard work in owning their part in whatever dysfunctional behaviors/activities they have engaged in. I find that there are many people who work in mental health who are there to fix others and not really interested in taking a look at themselves. Then I find other people who work in mental health who have done/are doing the hard work of looking at themselves so they can continue to grow into being the best people that they can be and are role models for their clients. There are people who grew up in healthy families, who are happy confident empathetic people and are a joy to be around. To gain entrance into the club of healthier people, we have to be willing to do everything we can to overcome growing up in a dysfunctional family, learn to love ourselves as we continue to move forward in creating healthier relationships with ourselves and others.

[Riv3rW0lf]

There is nobody we can totally be authentic with, and we all have to tell white lies at times so as not to hurt another person's feelings or to put ourselves in the position of being the target of a narcissist.

My question would be : are you telling white lies in an effort not to hurt someone, to be authentic to yourself? To your values? Or because of a false sense of obligation? Because those, to me, are two distincts motives and don't mean the same thing.

If it is for yourself, then you are being authentic... in a seemingly twisted way... You are doing it to be true to yourself, because of empathy, because maybe you don't see value in calling them out, or maybe because part of you know it is sometimes easier to buy peace and exit graciously, than confront and leave the door open to issues down the road.

If it is for them, by fear, by obligation, then you are not being authentic to yourself, and potentiallt setting yourself up for problems later on, or puzzles.

Few people are completely safe. But it helps to remind myself that I am a grown adult now. That whatever comes my way, I can protect myself.

I often find myself overanalysing encounters and like you, I wonder if I shared too much, I feel exposed. that's when I tell myself : maybe you did, maybe you didn't.if you did: I got you. I am grown up, I mean well, and I am smart.I will be ok and can handle anything that will come my way.

Truth is,the part of me that feels exposed is my inner child/teenager. I found out they just need to feel I can handle anything that comes my way.

A work in progress, but it helps.

No one can hurt me, unless I allow them to.and when they do, I will jump right back up. I got myself.

You got yourself too. I've followed you here, you are strong willed, you are well rounded and you mean well. you will protect yourself. You got the power and the tools. It takes energy, it is hard work to keep ourselves safe. But you have been doing it and are doing it everyday.

I don't think opening up too much is the real issue... Maybe that's just who we are...the issue is thinking opening up is exposing ourselves.it isn't. Because there is nothing wrong with who we are.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
My challenge is not meeting people where they are at. I am unusual in that I really value honest feedback from people. My therapist told me of all her clients I was the one most open to feedback and being accountable for my actions. I am well aware that most people do not want honest feedback.The ones that do, don't want it all the time. I do not like to mindread or guess what someone is thinking. I have often thanked people for telling me what they think and it often surprised them because they looked like they were afraid of how I might respond. I have learned that I can't be honest with narcissists and people with BPD because a big part of their dysfunction is not having the ability to have/accept reciprocal communications and relationships. First I need to find out who I can be honest with. A very valid test I find is to express a different point of view from them or to say no to them. Healthy people can tolerate different points of view. As a family scapegoat, I have spent too much of my life being blamed for not worshipping the narcissistic family members and their flying monkeys while trying to have reciprocal communications with them.
I am more authentic now than I have ever been while at the same time being more cautious about who I open up to, and it is paying off. I am starting to have healthier friendships and am not the magnet that I was for dysfunctional people.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Zachira,

What has been your experience with trauma bonding?
From your post, I understood that you tend to trauma bond before realizing this is what is happening, while truly wanting healthy friendships.

Can you describe how those kind of friendships are or become? Is there abuse? Scapegoating? Blameshifting? Or is it some kind of uncomfortable attunement, a relationship with an imperfect person that still gets it but is not yet self aware of their trauma?

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
I would say that most of my trauma bonding has been with people who I enabled by having empathy for their terrible behaviors. In the last few years, I have ended 5 relationships/friendships with people who liked me because I enabled their bad behaviors. The friendships/relationships worked as long as I listened to them and was kind about the one sided nature of the conversations. I was hurt by how they all just walked away so easily or accused me of being the problem when I insisted on having a reciprocal relationship, not just my listening to them and being empathetic. I have always valued people who listened to me, and  I had this idea that at some point that the relationships would become more reciprocal. Now I really pay attention to if a person ever shows any genuine interest in me. In my immediate and extended families, I am the scapegoat, and I have learned the hard way that putting up with how badly they treat me and others just leads to more abuse. I am working on having better emotional regulation because of in my neediness for human connection, I often overshare and jump into relationships too quickly which turns off the healthy people. Healthy relationships develop over time and there is little drama. For most of my life, I was attracted to people, that had lots of drama in their lives. Now, I enjoy the healthy people, and the calm presence they bring to the table. I still am codependent and try to help people who don't need help, and I am working on this. I also can get very dysregulated by people who mistreat me, which seems to lead to more abuse, as they thrive on dumping on how badly they feel inside onto others. I am noticing the joy I feel when really connecting with others. My biggest challenge is often feeling worthy of having close relationships and friendships. I have missed out on a lot of milestones in life, like being happily married, being a parent, having life long friends, having a long succesful career, and I can't feel good about accomplishments I don't have. I really can't look back on my life and say I am proud of it. I consider myself a survivor of some of the most difficult of circumstances; being a family scapegoat is a lifelong sorrow. I give myself credit for surviving, for having integrity, for working hard in therapy for many years, and having the courage to end abusive relationships with family and their flying monkeys.
 

[Mommydoc]

This is a great thread Zachira, thanks for starting it.

My challenge is being way too open with people before I get to know them.

I used to be like that Zachira and it made me vulnerable to people who took advantage of my naive nature.  Over time, I am still pretty open and warm with new acquaintances, with a mantra of assuming good intent with people. But I have a much greater sense of awareness and am better able to identify people who are insincere or whose words and actions are not congruent. I also try really hard not to make early judgements good or bad, and just let people slowly reveal themselves to me through their actions. And when they give me reason to doubt their intent, I am more cautious around them, but not necessarily hostile. Particularly now, post pandemic, I notice that everyone has more bad days, where they aren’t their best self, including me. I don’t want to be judged on my “ bad days” so try to extend that to others.  But I am much more observant now  and when I witness repeated negative behaviors, I am quicker to see the patterns.

Like NotWendy, I realize my initial impressions are not always accurate. Some people I really connect with early on, don’t prove themselves to be trustworthy or authentic in the long run, and other people who may be reserved/introverted may be hard to connect with initially but over time turn out to be awesome. More often than not, however, my gut instincts are good, and I trust them, but rather than going too deep too son, I try to pace myself more.

At work, I interface with a very large number of people.  Many/most are really great, but some are real snakes. Truth is I still have to work with them, it’s my job to do so. I have learned to limit my exposure and create stronger boundaries in those circumstances, to maintain a working relationship without being too trusting and protecting myself and my team. Initially it didn’t feel authentic to me, but over time, I realize by doing that, I am more effective and I also leave the door open for the other person to grow, mature, and show up more positively in the future. It  happens and if I had closed off completely or been highly defensive or antagonist, I think I would have closed off some future possibilities.

Most importantly, we all have to value ourselves, our needs, particularly our psychological safety. When someone shows they are not safe, psychologically or physically,  to be around, out of self respect and self compassion, we must take actions to protect ourselves and those we care about.

Overall, I believe there is good in (almost) everyone and try to see and seek that part of them. The snakes reveal themselves pretty rapidly if we are observant and we need to be vigilant in identifying them and protecting ourselves and those we care about. 

[Notwendy]

I also have tended to be over trusting- give people the benefit of the doubt- until they show themselves to be otherwise.

My mother is dishonest and manipulative, but it took me a long time to actually see it. I think the ability to see things with "rose colored glasses" may have been a way to deal with how we grew up? I think minimizing abusive situations is one way to cope.

In many ways though, there were good things. We had enough to not worry about food, or housing. We were cared for materially- school, clothes and when Dad was available, we had good times together with him. So it's hard to say it was bad but if discussing the way BPD mother behaved, there's no way I'd expose a child to that.

I think I let a lot of things slide with other people until something becomes apparent. I also work with a lot of different personalities. As long as I can see that the person has good intentions, issues are manageable but sometimes it's hard to see where the snakes are. Snakes are sneaky, and I don't think that way, so it's not always easy to see them but I think I am getting better at seeing them.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think the ability to see things with "rose colored glasses" may have been a way to deal with how we grew up? I think minimizing abusive situations is one way to cope.

I definitely agree with that. This ability gave us the resiliency we needed to survive, but then it might also be what makes us give too many free pass to abusive people. I think better boundaries and healthy self-parenting is probably the best way to protect ourselves.

MommyDoc, beautifully said, and a great objective to adopt for myself. I resonate with the balanced approach you have... Not to judge too harshly, to remain aware of patterns, to protect yourself without hostility, in an effort to recognize anyone can change.

Thinking back on how I used to be when I was at my most traumatized, I wasn't very safe to be around. Many people simply shut the doors on me, and I don't blame them. But I did change. An awful lot. I am nowhere near as jealous and harsh as I used to be. I actually developped the capacity to be genuinely happy for others, without feeling a need to compete. I am simply not the same person I was. And so : I now feel it important to recognize others can change too. As long as I have good boundaries to protect myself from their trauma, I can healthily stay around, emotionnally disengaged, but available when they are ready to come out their traumatized shell and take responsibility for themselves.

Reading all this though, I have to be honest that I don't have many friends. Just one and I had to leave the province we met in. We are business partner now, but we will seldom see each other in the future. My best friend definitely is my partner... I find I fit the description Notwendy gave... I am a bit socially awkward. I mean well, but I am quite direct. Usually not to hurt though, I just see many things as self-evident and I am often genuinely surprised when I see the person hadn't realized it, and are shaken. I also answer people that are mean to me. If they want to be critical, I will reroute their shame to them. Not in a hostile manner, but because it is my duty to protect myself too. Before though, I simply always kept to myself and never truly tried to get out there.

All in all, I am deeply introverted and a bit awkward. I now know, because my stepmother who is a psychologist made me realize it, that it might simply has to do with cognitive power. She said I was gifted, which was clear to her. That she had to focus on me when I was talking, because I switch fast from one thing to another. There are links evident to me, that takes a bit more time for her to find, so she feels moved from one side of a sea to another and it feels sometimes tiring to her. So I imagine that for people that aren't used to it, I can seem awkward. I also tend to overanalyse everything and everyone, which makes it awfully difficult to be in group settings and to meet people. It makes it complicated for me. Which resulted in me being called "different" often as a teenager by teachers and students alike. I then developed an exclusion schema and I only this year realized why I had had such trouble connecting with others.

So I guess, while I am not on the spectrum, I do appear different to others, which makes it incredibly hard to connect in person than in writing, online  . I am getting better at it. I slowed myself down. I now listen more, and will keep most of my answers for me. Not because I am dishonest or inauthentic, but because I am now aware a lot of people won't necessarily understand what I mean.

I also hope I don't come accross as self-absorbed here. This is something I seldom talk about, because I am aware it unnerves some people. My stepmother is the first one to recognize it, to have openly talked about it with me (she thought I had always knew, but I just knew something was odd about me and only put it together because my husband kept asking me to get tested), and the real gift she gave me was that : she wasn't deranged by it, it didn't made her feel bad about herself. It helped me feel less alone.

And this is why I now know I have to listen more than I talk around people... Listening more also helps see the patterns better. So I am also getting better in protecting myself, which truly only came with the fact that I finally know myself.

If we don't truly know ourselves, then we can't manage ourselves, then we can't protect ourselves either.

So I would say that self-awaress, Zachira, is key in protecting ourselves in the end.

And I think, feelings like we are achieving things can help our self-esteem, it is true, but many people just achieve things because they are in flight mode. They want to achieve , to accumulate, to fill a void. You are better served giving yourself credit for your awareness, authenticity and integrity than for a career and a big house. Careers can help, but they should remain a tool, a service to our community, to truly serve our need for authenticity. If you already are authentic, then there are other tools to raise self-esteem than a career.

As for having missed out of being a parent.. my stepmother had no children either, and she is a remarkable person. Truly. This does not define her. I know there is a hurt she carries with her about it, to not have been able to experience motherhood, she had to grieve it. But it didn't stop her from helping people, and valueing herself for what she is. And she is amazing. She found her passion (healthy nutrition) and give conferences about it and how it links to psychology. Interesting subject.

Another acquaintance of mine did a lot of non-lucrative work with homeless people and abused children. There are many tools out there to build something outside of us. The real work , the hardest, is inside though. And you are it. Authentic and aware.  

[zachira]

I appreciate all the replies. I think you are all right about how we grow up seeing people with rose colored glasses. This is how we survive childhood and is what allows a child to put the needs of the parents above their own and to love a parent unconditionally despite the apparent lack of reciprocity. The more I distance myself from my dysfunctional famly members and dysfunctional people in general, the more I am able to see people for who they are earlier, and am more able to more easily distinguish between authentically kind people and people who are projecting a false image of being a decent person. I keep hurting as I become more aware of who I need to cut out and the backlash I face when distancing myself from people who are unable to have healthy relationships. I have to remind myself that part of being able to love and have healthy relationships is that it means getting hurt and disappointed sometimes as we don't always get to be around the right kind of people, and everybody has a side to them that can be hurtful at times. There are no perfect people. I agree  that self awareness and taking time to get know people are key to protecting ourselves in forming healthier relationships. We are all a work in progress.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I was thinking of this thread earlier.

I went outside with my children. There was a bunch of kids playing that my daughter gets along with, and the neighbors were there. And I thought of this thread, because I find that navigating those relationships are very hard...

And I think this is how I know who is who...

Now that I am older, I realize that with some people: it was always easy. I could talk, be opened, joke around, and it felt comfortable. There was connection. The key is : I didn't need to think about it.

When I meet with my friend and business partner : there is never any uneasy feeling. I always leave the meeting feeling good, and I know she does too. Even if we talk about nothing..because emotionally, we connect.

With my neighbors, even if everything looks great on the surface, even if nothing stood out : I am left thinking about the meeting for multiple hours... And I think the key is emotional connection.

There is no emotional connection with them.

They come from a class of people where they buy a lot of goods, they work, they achieve. And when I am with them, no matter who I I dress up like, I feel judged. I used to dress myself different ways to fit in. Thankfully, I don't do that anymore. I am now aware that I will be judged and looked down on by them anyway. For my choices. For who I am.

What I am likely triggers them. Because I only have one car. Because I don't value things. Because I am more in sync with my emotions... I am not trying to take the higher moral grounds here, but I just don't think anyone who seek to cumulate things is healthy emotionnally... The big house, the big boat, the truck, the car, the pool, the RV, the Tesla... Who needs all this? It's filling a void... Then they work none stop to pay the bills, and they don't even get to enjoy it.

I am in a neighborhood I truly don't fit in right now, and I miss my old neighbors in the Maritimes. They were real people that valued connection. And I miss them. I remember one of them told me : "you just take that nice new Maritimer smile you learned here with you and everything will be well."


As it turns out, a smile is not enough.

A few years ago, I would have try to adapt, I would have tried to please... but now I know better... With my friends, the safe ones, I don't need to try to belong... I just do. Even in differences, there is safety, there is no judgement. So I won't change for them, and I will not even try to belong... I already do.

And even if the "exclusion" feels lonely at times... I am likely less lonely than they are in the end, because I stopped excluding myself. And while I only have a few people I connect with, husband, children and only one friend : as least it is a real connection.

But all this to say... I think those people are emotionnally shut down... And this might be the big difference, and one of the key in knowing who is who.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
I think you hit the nail on the head, that with some people there is no emotional connection. I notice how comfortable and enjoyable, it is to be around people with whom there is a peaceful presence about them, and I feel we see and hear each other. With dysfunctional people like some of my family members, it does not matter how hard I try, there is no emotional connection, and I end up looking like a needy deranged person who is easily scapegoated when I keep trying to connect with them.
My challenge now is to own my internal distress and not inflict it on others. When I am distressed, I tend to have poor boundaries, and open myself up to the wrong people, and turn off the right people if I am too overwhelming. Lots of work still to do on learning emotional regulation skills, which are especially a challenge, because I never even had the basics: My mother with BPD left her babies in the crib crying and did not comfort them. For a lot of people from dysfunctional families, the traumas begin later around age two, when the toddler starts to have melt downs, and the baby is no longer a baby.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Zachira,

I don't know... Starting at my mother's generation and under, there was and still is this idea that a baby has to be able to self-soothe... So people let them "cry it out". My mother admitted doing that with us as well. Just let us cry it out. I think I was lucky that she had to go back to work when I was 6 month old, and put me with a woman that lived on our road, who had a handicapped child and stayed at home with her. When I think of this woman, I feel safe. while with my mother I felt mostly scared and lonely.

I understand when you talk about owning the distress... Yesterday, with my neighbor, I felt emotions that were pushing me to want to react, but I willingly decided to smile and stay silent. Being in contact with people who "react" to their emotions, does incite us to "react" too.

We are emotional primates. When talking with my H, he mentioned that those people just "react". If I say something, they don't really listen, they just need to "up" me.

There is an underlying competition because they lack the capacity to self-regulate and are looking for outside validation for anything and everything.

It's not that I don't feel jealousy, or competition, it's that when I do now, I can self-soothe and focus on the inner part of me that is genuinely happy for the other person.and the more I did that, the less jealousy I felt to the point now where I don't feel it anymore. But I can now recognize the triggers in others...and that they are in reaction mode, as opposed to action mode.

It's not that they are bad people,it's that they are not aware of their emotional world... And so can't connect.

We all feel negative emotions, but we can choose to stay present within, and not react to them. It is only possible with deep self-awareness.

I wonder why it is that some people keep reacting all their life, why they can never listen and look within. What is it that made us self-aware? Those people don't all have PDs... Is it the way our society is built? Our cultural values? ...it has to be.

[Couscous]

My H’s mother told us that she left him to cry because that’s what the “experts” said you were supposed to do. The result is that he stuffs his emotions and truly does not notice them. I can tell when he’s upset before he can, and usually have to bring it to his attention, and even then it usually takes a good few minutes before he finally realizes that he is upset.

I think most people even with non-PD parents learn to suppress or repress their emotions — which is essentially the goal of traditional parenting approaches.

[Riv3rW0lf]

My H’s mother told us that she left him to cry because that’s what the “experts” said you were supposed to do. The result is that he stuffs his emotions and truly does not notice them. I can tell when he’s upset before he can, and usually have to bring it to his attention, and even then it usually takes a good few minutes before he finally realizes that he is upset.

I think most people even with non-PD parents learn to suppress or repress their emotions — which is essentially the goal of traditional parenting approaches.

But then, isn't your H also very enmeshed with his mother, with covert emotional incest? Not feeling his emotions, not being aware of his own needs, is likely the result of this covert incest more than the cry it out. I don't condone cry it out by the way, and it surely didn't help...

This being said, I definitely agree that in our culture, we expect children to control themselves and to know what to do with their emotions much faster than they are able to without guidance and support.

I My daughter started preschool this year...from what I gathered from my daughter herself, the daily reports, and her two teachers: she has been doing amazing. She is friends with every one, she is empathetic, she can name her emotions and say why she feels this way. She is 4. I am quite happy to witness she loves school and is doing well there. Despite thisz her teacher wrote on her "bulletin": "she is doing great but she has strong emotions and doesn't always seem to know what to do with those." I honestly wondered why she even felt the need to write that? Is it "out of norm" for a 4 years old to need guidance on how to manage anger and sadness? I mean... I am aware my D is likely HSP, she checked all the boxes of the highly sensitive infant and toddlers from Dr.Sears book... So yes, when she goes through an emotion, it can get intense.

I just mean the comment was odd, from a teacher with experience with children. she is doing amazing, but she has trouble with big emotions...I mean..duh! Weird society...

So I think you are absolutely right Couscous : we live in a culture that is uncomfortable with emotions, and we ask our children from an early point to repress their emotions... Leading to what we see now... Emotional disconnection, anxiety, and insecurity...

I think I need to start another thread about all this... I find it hard to navigate emotions and feelings with my four years old... Especially in today's world and culture... Managing expectations, balancing validation, support while helping her owning her feelings, getting them under control, and responsabilize her... It's hard.

[Couscous]

Managing expectations, balancing validation, support while helping her owning her feelings, getting them under control, and responsabilize her... It's hard.

I think you might like this interview with Gabor Mate that addresses this exact topic. It’s the 4th one on the list, and I just noticed that her latest podcast is about sensitive children!

https://authenticparenting.com/podcast

[Riv3rW0lf]

Thanks Couscous, I listened to it. It's interesting, my stepmother told me about Gabor Mate's work, she thought I would like it. I did. Will look into his books.

[zachira]

Still not doing so well with some of the people I have attracted as friends. Recently I have had two friends I made in the last year accuse me of some pretty bizarre stuff. Got lots of work to do on being the kind of person who knows how to attract healthy friendships and relationships, and setting strong boundaries with people who really are not safe to be friends with. Have made some friendships with the right kind of people.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Still not doing so well with some of the people I have attracted as friends. Recently I have had two friends I made in the last year accuse me of some pretty bizarre stuff. Got lots of work to do on being the kind of person who knows how to attract healthy friendships and relationships, and setting strong boundaries with people who really are not safe to be friends with. Have made some friendships with the right kind of people.

It's interesting that you seem to think you have power over who you attract toward you. You might already be the kind of person to attract healthy friendships... Attracting damaged, traumatized or abusive people might just be inevitable.

I think it says more about you that you keep putting yourself out there despite the hurt, in a good way.

All this to say: I think you will always attract those people, because those people are attracted to healthy people too... Key might just be to recognize them earlier, like I think you mentioned earlier... Trusting our guts, instead of "people pleasing". Listening to the faint voice that doesn't feel quite well with them, even when everything looks ok on the surface to anyone else.

But to think you have to change to stop attracting them, is putting you up for failure, because this is not your fault .. it just is society.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
Thank you for your wisdom. You are right: I got to keep putting myself out there and recognizing earlier who I need to put up stronger boundaries with. I generally am interested in all kinds of people. I like to listen more than most people. At one point, I was having to let go of people who I listened to for many an hour without them ever asking me one single question about myself. When I tried to talk a little about myself, they turned on me, were narcissists for sure. Yes, we do attract people who are healthy and unhealthy because this is part of being out there, involved in life.

[Couscous]

I like to listen more than most people.

This is why this is all so tricky, because we have no frame of reference for what is a “normal” amount of listening to do.

My H and recently met a couple, and what struck me after our first meeting me was how the man asked us no questions at all. Then the next time we met up I observed multiple additional red flags for narcissism — and it was pretty obvious that he is extremely controlling.

So perhaps looking out for red flags the very first time you meet someone could help.

For me I’ve decided that it’s far too early in my recovery to even attempt real-world friendships and I’ve been going to various recovery groups, like Al-Anon, ACA and SMART recovery. I’m going to attend a Refuge Recovery meeting next. They are helping me feel less isolated and giving me a feeling of being part of a community, even though I still haven’t attempted to befriend anyone at a meeting so far.

[zachira]

Couscous,
I agree it is hard to know what is a normal amount of listening. I agree it is a big red flag if a person asks nothing about you. I am interested in people and ask lots of questions, which makes them want to talk to me. I think a good rule could be that if after 15 minutes the person shows no interest in me, than it is time to end the conversation, unless this is a long time friend in which we like to tell long stories or talk a lot, yet at other times the friend allows me to talk at length and shows a genuine interest in what I have to say.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So...

I was reading this morning on self-centerdness. I was trying to uncover the root of my father's egocentricity, only to realize that I had been very self-centered myself up to the moment I had my children. Anyone else experienced this?

Like having children finally forced me out of myself? And enabled me to finally truly connect with another being, other than my cat.

I read an article that stated self-centerdness appears as a result of loneliness, as a way to protect oneself from the pain. Having learned that connecting with others brought only pain and sorrows, being taught that our needs don't matter can lead one to become self-centered as a way to protect themselves.

Self-centerdness would be at the root of most disorders including anxiety, rumination, depression (and of course PDs like borderline, narcissism, histrionic, ...).

And it hit me that... Whenever I don't feel quite well, if I am tired, or if I don't trust someone, I do switch to a more self-centered way of being and talking. And only find myself to be truly altruistic with only a chosen few I really trust... My stepmother, a very few friends, my husband, my two children.

I wonder if others are not "reacting" also to my self-centerdness, leading to the feeling of exclusion I sometimes feel with some people.

As an example, when I am with my neighbors outside, I can hear myself talking in a more self-centered way. So either I am protecting myself from something I sense from them, or it is my trauma, and simply because I don't know them that I act in this way.

In comparison, my stepmother always seems focused on the other, the person she has in front of her. She will talk about her and give her viewpoints, but you can sense she is focusing entirely on you when she is there. She achieves that with seemingly everyone, while I can only be in that state with few people...

With my BPD mother, I become VERY self-centered, leading to anxiety...

Anyway... I could go on an on, but I think I am going in circle at that point.. I think what I am trying to say if that I would like to try to shift my focus onto others now... Like... At all times. Remaining within, but focusing on them during conversations... See where it leads.

Anyone else relates to this?

(Links to the main article)
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/evolution-the-self/201608/self-absorption-the-root-all-psychological-evil