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Author Topic: Knowing Who is who  (Read 2732 times)
zachira
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« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2022, 10:53:12 AM »

Riv3rWOlf,
I have struggled with being too self centered at times. I made the decision a few years ago to focus mainly on others. This has not worked for me when I attract people who never ask about me, and later get abusive when I insist on some kind of reciprocity in the relationship. I used to turn off a lot of people by being too needy. That happens less now though at times I see myself with healthier people being too talkative, and I think I am looking for the attention I never got as a child. My intentions now are to continue to work on emotional regulation, connecting with self and others, while setting healthier boundaries. My key boundary right now is if another person does not ask anything about me at some point than it is time to limit the interactions I have with them. Another key boundary is not to disclose too much personal information about myself in the beginning of a relationship/friendship.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2022, 10:58:15 AM by zachira » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2022, 04:43:34 PM »

RW,

If you take a look at the chart I’ve linked below, you’ll see that in order to for our social engagement system to be activated (green zone) we have to feel safe. When you grow up around unsafe people you tend to be wary of new people until they have proven themselves to be safe. It is just not possible to do all those things your step-mother seems does so well when one in a sympathetically aroused state, which is the state we default to when we don’t feel safe.

https://equusoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Neuroception-Curve-2021-2048x1366.jpg
« Last Edit: October 24, 2022, 04:50:38 PM by Couscous » Logged
Riv3rW0lf
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« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2022, 06:14:56 PM »

Couscous,

To be fair, my stepmother had to walk the other way. Being altruistic is second nature to her, she was brought up to be completely selfless (which was something she has to work on) and is a clinical psychologist... She also told me she had years upon years of therapy herself within which she had to work on finding her inner safety and be more self-centered herself.

I guess this is what I am truly aiming for... To feel safe and see others more for what they are... Be less nervous, be less self centered. Anyway, I agree with you it all relates to our feeling of safety.  Surely we can reprogram our brain to feel safe.
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« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2022, 06:38:20 PM »

We totally can re-train our nervous systems. I have heard that for PTSD you need to do a nervous system regulation practice of some kind for 20 minutes per day, even in four sessions of five minutes. Now, if only I could find a way to remember to actually do this…

I think I am going to stick a sign on my bathroom mirror right now.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
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Riv3rW0lf
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« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2022, 06:55:02 PM »

I just searched Nervous System Regulation Techniques  Being cool (click to insert in post) looks a lot like self-care? Did you have a specific technique in mind?  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2022, 11:56:03 AM »

RW, I have found that regular self-care only goes so far. I spent some time trying to get definitive answer as to how to retrain the nervous system last night, and rediscovered Clinical Somatics, which I briefly looked into a year ago. At the time I didn’t realize that it was a nervous system retraining program.

https://somaticmovementcenter.com/anxiety-muscle-tension/

In addition to doing a longer daily practice like somatics, I think it’s also important to take frequent grounding breaks throughout the day to remind ourselves that we are safe. I’m thinking of setting a reminder to go off every hour and do a 1 minute grounding exercise. This could be as simple as cuddling my kids or singing. Smiling (click to insert in post)

There are also grounding techniques one can do unobtrusively, like softening the gaze, and I wonder if it might help to do these during social anxiety inducing situations. I am going to try to experiment with that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5xVVFOsf2I

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« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2022, 04:31:12 PM »

Yes, having been born with PTSD, and many early childhood adverse events. it is only in my early sixties that I am able to start feeling what it is like not to have PTSD aka safe. @Cat Familiar recommends finding a space inside yourself that feels safe and I have found it invaluable advice. @Gagrl saved my sanity with alpha waves, and I use this one to this day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzMmJ-YD2BE

I also chant, and this one, recommended by my expwBPD has really helped: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isXLBHCDo4Y

When I am on my A-game 20 minutes chanting and 20 minutes workout in the morning leaves me feeling great. Wonderful combo of fine tuning brain and then topping up with endorphins and it keeps my anxiety levels a lot lower during the day.

Since I started these routines I have gotten to the point where I can feel anxiety levels rising (vs a constant presence). Certain times during the day seem to be very consistent -being born with PTSD means you wake up in the morning in a state of anxiety because you are afraid at what the day will hold, for instance. So I make a plan to do some extra self-care during those times.

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

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Riv3rW0lf
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« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2022, 06:38:43 PM »

It is great to read all this advice, thanks Couscous and Khimbosis, I will check all that out... It resonates a lot with me, the waking up anxious.

I've been sick the past few days, and awfully tired, which might explains why I lost my footing this heavily concerning my children and how I parent them (again). I also need a lot of cardio to help regulate myself, and being sick means I haven't been able to do it, and the walks are simply not enough. But alas, there is a light at the end of the tunnel !  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Also Khimbosis ! Yes ! about the safe place within ! I found it, and I realize not I truly need constant monitoring of myself. Also definitely yes to the increase in anxiety. It happened just earlier...

I will talk about my neighbors yet again... I challenged myself. Went outside WILLINGLY to try a new "defense"... I focused on them, mostly, and didn't talk about me... Not really. When I did, it was more general observations than ME and what I go through... It felt great to not be self-focused. It seems to work for me... Not talking about myself, putting the focus on something else, be it general observations or them, truly seem to be a beautiful protection for myself. I don't expose myself, and they enjoy talking about them. win. win.

One of them (the guy), still tried to bait me on one of the general observations I made about the stigmatization of stay at home mother in our culture and how it was different in another province I lived. He said : "You fought so much to work, I don't see why you would want to stay home now!" (and it was emotionally charged). I simply looked at him, laughed and said : "I? I don't recall personally fighting for that. I was born in this society, same as you. No wrong of bad choices here, just observations." And I left to play with my 18 months old... I was so proud of the way I handled him.

Then she (his wife), said something about "I hope I didn't make you feel this way! I really don't judge..." and I simply answered: "how someone feels inside has nothing to do with anything anyone else does... Don't worry, not blaming anyone here, I take responsibility for my emotions, whatever they are." Stopped her right there.

I was genuine. This is truly what I thought, and I didn't keep it for myself.

Yes, I don't fit it. Yes, they were surprised, and felt more comfortable talking between them (two neighbors and the husband), but I simply didn't care tonight... I was just.. in the moment, there to observe. It didn't feel personal, like it did last time. I was connected to my safe space..

So... keeping it to general observations and focusing on them seems to work for me in not being triggered for hours after spending time with "strangers".
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« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2022, 02:39:57 AM »

Hey, RW, glad to help! Sorry to hear you have been ill, and I hope you have managed to take some self-care time. The mornings are the worst, hey, alarm clocks will start my day in a state of flat panic, so I try to do without them when I can. I find if I go to bed early enough I can wake up in time on my own.

Inherited PTSD is difficult if you don't understand it. I explained to my then therapist once that it is not as if we first had a 'normal' and then had some trauma to set off the PTSD. I never had a normal. I did not know what it was.   I learnt to cope with what I had and that helped me survive but doesn't always make me happy. So this thing of finding one's way to safety is really a self-training. We are teaching ourselves what should be normal for us.

Once one finds a safe groove it becomes easier to be radically genuine. @Sinister Complex refers to it as outcomes independence. Since I stopped caring about how I impress other people and started caring more about how they impress me, it has become much easier to be authentically myself. Take me or leave me, but what you see is what you get. It is so liberating.  Can't say I am very popular socially, but I would rather you hate the real me then love the pretense.

And yes, when people consistently trigger me then I have learnt to keep my distance. The reward of taking the time and making the effort to be well is that one is loath to throw that away on somebody else's dysfunction.

Hang in there dear. It gets better.
 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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Riv3rW0lf
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« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2022, 07:56:52 AM »


Inherited PTSD is difficult if you don't understand it. I explained to my then therapist once that it is not as if we first had a 'normal' and then had some trauma to set off the PTSD. I never had a normal. I did not know what it was.   I learnt to cope with what I had and that helped me survive but doesn't always make me happy. So this thing of finding one's way to safety is really a self-training. We are teaching ourselves what should be normal for us.

Once one finds a safe groove it becomes easier to be radically genuine. @Sinister Complex refers to it as outcomes independence. Since I stopped caring about how I impress other people and started caring more about how they impress me, it has become much easier to be authentically myself. Take me or leave me, but what you see is what you get. It is so liberating.  Can't say I am very popular socially, but I would rather you hate the real me then love the pretense.


This is beautifully put.

I also love the way you express it, being "radically genuine". It does feel like an all or nothing thing. When I can find this inner safety, I hear myself say things that are so far off what the traumatized me would say (or not say). I become a bit more blunt, and I can suddenly fend for myself, but not in a mean way. Like a gentle parent redirecting the dysfunction without blame or judgment. And what dysfunctional teenager like a loving parent around, no wonder we are not popular in that state !  Being cool (click to insert in post)

It seems this safety, being comfortable, does trigger others and open the doors to projection though... Or no, the projection always happens but suddenly we can see it. When I am in that state, it seems like many people starts assuming I am a certain way or another (you look bored, you look unnerved, etc. when I feel calm), like I become some sort of mirror for their own dysfunction, just by being there, but I can be aware of it. Have you experienced that? They are looking to 'connect', but it becomes easier to realize they truly don't see 'me'. That they just see an extension of their inner world, of the assumptions they already made about me, if that makes sense.

I also find my neighbor in particular (so personality types like him) gets particularly triggered and seems to want to pick on me... But yesterday I finally really grasped that he cannot hurt me, because I see him. I see the traumatized child looking to feel better by making others feel bad, and I find myself an observer of the dysfunction more than a player in it... I was in the moment, and I loved it.

If only I could be there most of the time... ! A new goal... aim to be this observer more often... be in the moment, and be safe. At least, now I know it's possible.

The reason I talk so much about my neighbors is because I decided to use them as training grounds. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post), so far so good for desensitization.

Reading your post a couple months back, I would not have understood what you meant. Now I do. Working on ourselves is hard work, but so worth it.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 08:03:32 AM by Riv3rW0lf » Logged
zachira
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« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2022, 03:32:07 PM »

Great link below to article about narcissists and lying:

https://goodmenproject.com/sex-relationships/narcissists-dont-lie-they-create-alternate-realities/

I have been taken in many times by people who are confident about lying and promoting a false image, like many of my family members.
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« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2022, 03:57:49 PM »

RW, thank you for the appreciation, but it is not my idea. Comes from a workshop on validation and has stuck with me as the ultimate goal of self-healing. Just being myself. Deal with it. Such a lovely concept!
The workshop is here:https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating
 and I guess the idea is that when we give ourselves grace - the ability to accept ourselves so fully and wholly that we live ourselves in daily mindfulness- then it becomes easier to give others that same grace. DBT is based originally on Zen Buddhist tenets. It works.
 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2022, 07:27:20 PM »

This thread reminded me of the book "In Sheep's Clothing", which is on my reading list: https://lifeclub.org/books/in-sheeps-clothing-george-simon-jr-phd-review-summary



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« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2022, 10:30:03 PM »

Patrick’s Teahan’s latest video is about this exact topic, titled: How to trust yourself after narcissistic abuse. I thought it was very helpful. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hoHy4UWhXZQ
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zachira
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« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2022, 02:17:57 PM »

I am realizing I really get in trouble by being too authentic with unsafe people while at the same time often having really joyful experiences with people who are genuinely authentic most of the time. I have often been complimented on my integrity. It seems that so many people these days have their false persona that they put on for many reasons: to stay safe, to get what they want, to manipulate others. I am working on staying calm, so I am more aware of what is going on, and able more readily to make safer decisions on what level to engage with people.
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Riv3rW0lf
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« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2022, 04:14:51 PM »

Zachira,

Could I ask what you mean by "getting into trouble" by being authentic with the wrong people?
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zachira
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« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2022, 04:32:05 PM »

Getting into trouble by being authentic with the wrong people seems to mean that they can abuse me and other people similar to me. For example, I have had some narcissists lie to me about some major financial and legal matters, and other things. I believe it was all about controlling me and promoting their agendas without any remorse about hurting others. I have found some of the smear campaigns were about that I am not following in line with being the family and/or community scapegoat. I have seen many family and community scapegoats do all kinds of kind generous things for the family and friends and community, and never get a lick of credit for it, just ongoing malicious gossip about what terrible people they are. I need to save myself for the people who are respectful to others and have integrity, and keep up my guard without being fearful, calm and grounded instead.
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zachira
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« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2022, 09:57:46 AM »

Yesterday I spent some time with two different people whom I find emotionally soothing to be around. One is a woman who is empathetic and genuinely interested in others. The conversation is deep and goes back and forth. The other is a man who was walking his dog , and who is present in the moment as he enjoys his time outdoors with his dog and the people he meets along the way. Last night I slept so well. I have noticed this a few times before: how soothing it is to be with certain people. It used to be I was bored with people if there wasn't any drama and I was one big piece of drama myself, incapable of self soothing or being soothed by others. Things are going to continue to get ugly with some of the family members and their enablers as I become more and more my own person, and am able to feel less and less like a victim while more calm and collected when they try to get to me angry and reactive when they are abusive to me and others.
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Riv3rW0lf
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« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2022, 07:34:59 PM »

Quick poll.

Just touched base with a friend of mine. Tried talking with her a couple weeks back but ended up overly tired and had to cancel. I told her I was sorry, that it had been a crazy time for viruses and bacterias, that my children especially had been consistently sick, and that my son in partcular was just getting better from scarlatina this week (lasted many days still not completely over).

I wasn't looking for pity or anything, but her answer kinda left me dazed a bit.

She answered : "Anyway I've been sick too with COVID since last Monday. Children under 5 were also always sick pre-lockdown too!"

Now, she is usually not the kind to be angry about not being able to talk on the phone. I kinda felt her answer was invalidating. And I realized she always does that. And I only notice now... maybe because I made a friend that is actually safe? She would have likely answered something like : "Ho no! Scarlet fever? How was he? You must have been worried...". Even my brother told me :"you must have been worried to see him like that." I mean... It's not as dangerous as it once was, but the rarity made it stressful. He truly was a mess.

I caught COVID twice last year. I'm aware it can be bad for some people, although it wasn't for me. But wouldn't your friend telling you her son had Scarlet fever require a bit of empathy and support instead of complete invalidation? Am I too sensitive, or did I change and am now seeing the dysfunction? I know I would have offered the compassion I expected because I did recently, and almost always do for her... I guess I am starting to see the one-way validation.

Of course, everyone has bad days. But this is the friend who judges my husband more than I'd like too...

Anyone else found that finding safe friends opened their eyes to the friendships that felt wrong?

It's like, I've spent so much time the past few months, talking with my safe friend and stepmother that when this specific friend answered me I fell off my chair. It is so out of tune with the answers I usually have from my safe friends, that it felt really odd.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 07:53:03 PM by Riv3rW0lf » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2022, 10:09:47 PM »

Excerpt
She answered : "Anyway I've been sick too with COVID since last Monday. Children under 5 were also always sick pre-lockdown too!"

Yikes! That’s the kind of response I’d expect from someone with borderline traits/BPD.

I hope your son is doing better. I had no idea scarlet fever was still in circulation!
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Riv3rW0lf
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« Reply #50 on: November 21, 2022, 06:56:33 AM »

Yikes! That’s the kind of response I’d expect from someone with borderline traits/BPD.

I hope your son is doing better. I had no idea scarlet fever was still in circulation!

Couscous ! Thank you for the validation and feedback.

After she answered that, I shared with her some of the information I had found on the current health conditions of children, how they are catching too many viruses and bacterias at once, leading to worsening in condition. I wished her luck with her COVID and I added I was surprised by her answers, and asked if she was maybe angry or disappointed that I had to cancel our previous phone call and hadn't found a moment to call since.

This morning I woke up to a long text stating she wasn't angry but had no interest in reading my aggressive texts because she was so sick and a mess.

It reminded me of my mother so very much. I tried to SET. Told her I could see she had seen aggression in my texts, that there wasn't any, and that I was sincere when I told her good luck with her COVID.

But yeah wow... I'm seeing her entirely differently now. Small red flags here and there I chose to unsee.

I mean, I understand, it happens that I am tired and don't have anything to give, but generally when it does, I say so to the person without invalidating. It is so easy to say : "it must have been an intense week for you. Look I'm also sick over here and feeling very tired, can we catch up another time maybe?" Her answers camw accross as a complete blow off. Like I was supposed to somehow guess she was sick and now wasn't the time to share what had been going on in my life.

And I started gaslighting myself, making excuses for her... And THIS is the problem.

This example doesn't seem like a lot, but it comes from a pattern of answers I have received over the years from her. Everyone has bad days, but I closed my eyes on things that were completely unacceptable, I made excuses... to not anger her, to support her, to be there, to not hurt her... I guess I don't want to close my eyes anymore...

I now see the judgments, the critics of the man I love, of the way I live my life. Me trying to justify stuff to prevent her talking behind my back because that's what I felt, I felt she was coming from a place of judgment instead of support. And I realize now, I don't have to dance with her at all. I can step away from this relationship.

The first time I talked with her about opening my own business, she was only negative about it, kept pushing me down. Still today when I talk about it, she scoffs and shows no interest in what I do, while I encourage her in her work decisions, career, try to lift her up... Why am I even in this relationship?

I guess it comes back to what Zacchira said. When I start requesting some kind of validation, or "return", problems arise. She cannot and won't do it. Not really the kind of person I want to give my friendship to, in the end.
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« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2022, 11:29:28 AM »

Riv3rWOlf,
You are describing what happens to so many of us as we heal from growing up in a family that did not validate us. At some point, we notice that certain people we thought were our friends aren't, that we are just narcissistic supply to them. What has been particularly hurtful to me, is how fast the former friend adjusts to no longer being a friend, that nothing not even a long time friendship, will allow them to face the pain of looking at themselves. I have come to realize as you have that this type of friend is only interested in the friendship or whatever you want to call it, as long as they are being enabled. I also realize that they are used to just discarding people or being discarded as soon as they are required to do their part in being emotionally available to the other friend. I feel angry with my longest time friend who once I kept reinforcing wanting more emotional reciprocity with me and others ran for the hills. I have mostly myself to look at for not noticing the red flags and making excuses for her selfish behaviors. For a long time, I did not consider myself to be codependent, and I realize I have to stop enabling people because it does not help me; all it does is hurt others. Now that you have decided that validation by your friends is a deal breaker, you will continue to find so many incredible people who are capable of validating you, and those that want to use you for narcissistic supply aren't going to find you available to enable them.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 11:40:46 AM by zachira » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2022, 12:58:37 PM »

Zacchira,

Have you noticed how those friendships started for you?

For me, she love bombed me. And I wanted to help her feel better... I thought we had an empathy connection, but I don't think so anymore. She kept pushing me in places that were bad for me, criticizing, while romantizing our connection, like she needed my attention and validation in our group of friends, I needed to acknowledge how special she was even if I didn't feel that way necessarily The third part of the cover narcissist video of Dr. Ramani made my jaw dropped. She described the start of our friendship to a T.

https://youtu.be/5Ll2lYIY-zI

Were you love bombed too? As someone with more empathy, it seems we are more susceptible to covert narcissists... As our first impulse is to support them. And we don't want to hurt them.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 01:05:21 PM by Riv3rW0lf » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2022, 01:53:14 PM »

Riv3rWOlf,
You have hit the nail on the head with how lovebombing is usually how these friendships/relationships start. I have had so many friendships/relationships with over the top lovebombing in the beginning later replaced by constant criticism and contempt, never being recognized for any positive traits or accomplishments. Being starved for love: having been an unwanted pregnancy, an immediate and extended family scapegoat, along with all the dysfunctional behaviors I learned growing up in a narcissistic family system, made me an easy target for toxic people and not the type of person a healthy person could deal with for long.
I now know that there are two types of people I must avoid: 1) people who lovebomb me and later turn on me. 2) people who are cruel to others. Some people have this naive idea that they will never be cruelly treated by this type of person and often go along with the cruel person, so they stay in the good graces of the cruel person.
I am in the process of learning everything I can about covert narcissism. Dr. Ramini's videos on covert narcissism are on my list to watch. Covert narcissists often act like they are the victim. They certainly are masters of manipulation yet the red flags are clearly there, if we can allow ourselves not to be taken in by their narratives of anything ever being their fault.
I am working on being the best person I can be. More and more I am spending time with people in which we are emotionally present with each other. It is a joy to be around these people. This is a big change for me, as in the past and still in the present somewhat, I would be looking for drama and people to rescue as the way to have a friendship/relationship with them, and found healthy people boring because they did not need me.
The recovery from so much childhood trauma is like peeling an onion. It is so overwhelming to face all the hurt that comes as we discover more hurt and things we have to work on, yet the alternatives of not doing so mean having a life that can at some point become a life not worth living. From my experiences, abuse just gets worse, and never gets better. The only choice for me is to face the abuse. The hard part is to recognize I need to work on myself and forget about the abusers ever changing or having any remorse for how cruel and manipulative they are. I am now mostly NC and LC with my large extended family and their flying monkeys. It is lonely, painful, and there are moments of joy and peace more and more, like I have never had before.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 02:05:52 PM by zachira » Logged

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