Always Maybe - Patterns and Cycles?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Mad at myself, I just threw any progress she had of missing me (which she obviously was starting to, based off the conversation) out the window.

[OKrunch]

Mad at myself, I just threw any progress she had of missing me (which she obviously was starting to, based off the conversation) out the window.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rev]

Mad at myself, I just threw any progress she had of missing me (which she obviously was starting to, based off the conversation) out the window.

Say more?  I missed something maybe?

[OKrunch]

Say more?  I missed something maybe?

see previous post.

[SaltyDawg]

My Therapist's words -

"I feel like you handled that very well. You maintained very good control and set that boundary that you weren't going to fight. That is a great way to show action rather than just say things. The biggest thing that I am seeing is that she still blames you for everything and is not taking responsibility on her end. That is showing me that there isn't much in the way of progress on her end. So, with that being the case, this roller coaster is still going to follow the same patterns as before and she will continue to blame you for everything that goes wrong in her life, whether you guys are together or not. If you get back together, she will continue to point all these things out every time you guys argue. Keep that resolve because it is just going to be the same stuff ."

You did handle it well.  You kept the boundary.  The fact that your boundary ticked her off shows you that the boundary is indeed needed.

I think that your therapist is right, especially on the words that I highlighted and underlined.

Just because she sounded sweet at the onset, doesn't mean that she has changed her ways -- perhaps she was just being polite when she was 'warm and making jokes' with an ulterior motive of getting you to help out with her 'bills and money'? 

What do you think? 

[waverider]

Engagement is validation, even poor outcome engagement is  higher on the validation scale than abandonment, real or perceived. In the BPD world an energetic conflict is better than silence as it bolsters victimhood and it soothes by projecting responsibility. Sitting in silencing holding the can is not palatable to pwBPD

If you want out of this then worrying about her missing you needs to be off your radar. Missing you is only a feeling of the moment and does not affect the bigger picture. It is just an immediate gratification denial

[Rev]

I hung up because she began yelling, it was not after i hung up that she got angry.
I did keep it BIFF. I was pleasant, did not react to her anger. Brief as I ended it when it got contentious, Informative of my reasonable boundary.
Being yelled at is a boundary, I told her calmly and politely, "Please don't yell, I do not want to fight" and she yelled so I hung up.

She got angry after discussing her money stressors (which wouldn't be problem If we still had a 2 income household)

K ... if it's this one - then here's a question - what is it that you wish you could add to your personality or values or goals or whatever that would make it possible to hold a personal internal boundary? (As in not just your behavior but also the emotional connection).  Maybe a better way would be to ask what it would take for you to have a relationship based on your own terms or walk away? 

My own mentor once told me to stop trying to have a conversation with someone who simply didn't exist.

Is there something missing in you that could be improved that would change her?

Rev

[OKrunch]

Say more?  I missed something maybe?
Sorry if i sounded short with my "See previous post" Rev, I was running out the door.

You did handle it well.  You kept the boundary.  The fact that your boundary ticked her off shows you that the boundary is indeed needed.

I think that your therapist is right, especially on the words that I highlighted and underlined.

Just because she sounded sweet at the onset, doesn't mean that she has changed her ways -- perhaps she was just being polite when she was 'warm and making jokes' with an ulterior motive of getting you to help out with her 'bills and money'?

What do you think?
Salty, thank you. I agree the roller coaster is definitely a thing. I will be having a very productive chat with my therapist on Thursday. To be clear, she wasn't asking me for money. In fact, right now she has to pay me a bit each month until an assistance program for the house that I got is concluded. She was basically going on about all the household bills. Which I would gladly help with if i was still living there. I can see very clearly she hasn't changed many things. Still very emotionally touchy. Defensive. Treading with caution, which ill elaborate on below.

Engagement is validation, even poor outcome engagement is  higher on the validation scale than abandonment, real or perceived. In the BPD world an energetic conflict is better than silence as it bolsters victimhood and it soothes by projecting responsibility. Sitting in silencing holding the can is not palatable to pwBPD

If you want out of this then worrying about her missing you needs to be off your radar. Missing you is only a feeling of the moment and does not affect the bigger picture. It is just an immediate gratification denial

Wave, Great points here, and keeping it real as always. Thank you. Honestly, I know she will miss me, and that's not enough. hasn't been for a while now. If anything is on my radar, its her self awareness and healing, which SEEMS to be going better, which again ill elaborate on below.

K ... if it's this one - then here's a question - what is it that you wish you could add to your personality or values or goals or whatever that would make it possible to hold a personal internal boundary? (As in not just your behavior but also the emotional connection).  Maybe a better way would be to ask what it would take for you to have a relationship based on your own terms or walk away?

My own mentor once told me to stop trying to have a conversation with someone who simply didn't exist.

Is there something missing in you that could be improved that would change her?

Rev
Rev,
To have a relationship on my own terms or walk away? I would say that boils down to commitment, adherence and understanding. Both parties need to choose each other, everyday. When problems arise, they are discussed and worked on. Dedication to use a word.
Which I know I will be told, she has shown none of these to be lasting, and only knowing that these behaviors have a root. A difficult, gnarly and tough root, but a treatable one at the end of the day.
Insofar as something missing in me that could be improved?
A great many things, from further work on my temper, to further understanding of trauma responses and communication techniques, fitness, and money management.
Will any of those things CHANGE her? No, they only serve to make me better, which as a side effect is attractive. She needs to do any changing on her end, that is not in my locus of control.


Today's conversation went on for quite a while. A lot of things were discussed.
Are we any closer together or planning to hang out ? No. certainly not.
Reconciliation or making plans was not the point of this convo.
However I feel it was a constructive conversation.
We discussed how we have miscommunicated in the past.
Both of our reactionary behaviors, why those might occur, what triggers them.
We discussed how we had hurt and been hurt.
We apologized, and forgave.
We discussed how we aren't getting back together, or anything that resembles it, in the near future.
I talked about how, through therapy, I had a much better understanding of how I was listening to listen, not to empathize and understand. That I understood how important it was that we both feel Heard and Understood rather than just listened to.
We talked about the Kids and how they were each doing. 
We talked about therapy, and what we've each been reading.

She said a number of things that were unlike her normal responses.
things like, admitting blame, saying "I hope you don't think I think this is all your fault."
she admitted (without being asked about it) abandonment fears, and how she's "trained herself to deal" with them.
She mentioned not wanting to lead me on like she had in the past.
She said she "couldn't promise that this wouldn't happen again" (this is pretty big, even though it sounds bad, IMO)

Although some of these things still seem negative, they are pretty self aware statements. To me, they show that therapy is helping. She still holds on to old grievances and arguments too much, and began the day with her typical type of response, which was to yell and get angry when she started processing her emotions.

This conversation has given me hope that she is working on herself.
NOT that we will get back together. If that is ever a possibility, it will be a long time from now.
We both still have too much to do for ourselves.
She is focused on her stuff, I am focused on mine.
Today slackened a lot of tension, or so it feels. Communicating about anything in the future will be less emotional, as a lot of that was put to bed today.

I do believe that if we both do what we need for ourselves, stay in therapy, and make improvements, a happy future is POSSIBLE for us.
Do I expect, hope or plan for that to happen?
No.
I am still in the same boat, focused on getting my house for my son and I, and saving money and making healthier choices in recreation and diet. As with before, the ball is truly in her court, and she has a lot of field to cross before its close to being back in mine.
My path is set, and that's the path I'm taking. Her level of presence on that path is up to her, and It will be determined by her actions, over time. Just showing up isn't enough.

Today was a lot, but I'm feeling pretty at peace.

Thank you all.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Today's conversation went on for quite a while. A lot of things were discussed.
Communication is key, especially with a borderline.  Just make sure you are talking to her when she is baseline, and not splitting or emotionally charged.

Are we any closer together or planning to hang out ? No. certainly not.
Reconciliation or making plans was not the point of this convo.
I'm glad that you are keeping it real.  Just because she is this way today, doesn't mean she will be back to her old ways tomorrow.  You need to she a shift that exceeds the duration of her typical episode.  Only start to believe in it after she is has been this way for more than two weeks.  Give it time.

However I feel it was a constructive conversation.
We discussed how we have miscommunicated in the past.
Both of our reactionary behaviors, why those might occur, what triggers them.
We discussed how we had hurt and been hurt.
We apologized, and forgave.
WOW, this is MAJOR progress, she is becoming 'self-aware' AND you are too!  I feel that this is the 'key' to having a successful relationship with a borderline.  This ephiphany happened with my wife in the beginning of November, it will be a slow process of reconciliation.  I too have some reactive tendencies, and I to am triggered by my wife when I have done reactive yelling abuse back to her before I figured out she had a much more severe reaction than I do.  Think of it as an emotional multiplier for her.  In my case, her reaction to something is at least twice how I would handle it, so anything that is above a 5 for me is above a 10 for her on a scale of 1 to 10.  The difference between you and I is that I am roughly two months ahead of you, and we are still living under the same roof, so it is a bit different.  Do follow the advise of your Therapist, it sounds like your T is a good fit for you from what you have communicated.

We discussed how we aren't getting back together, or anything that resembles it, in the near future.
Keep it real, don't rush things.  Before even considering getting back together, you and her need to set boundaries and mutually agree on them.

I talked about how, through therapy, I had a much better understanding of how I was listening to listen, not to empathize and understand. That I understood how important it was that we both feel Heard and Understood rather than just listened to.
We talked about the Kids and how they were each doing. 
We talked about therapy, and what we've each been reading.
Communications, is another key area, especially with a borderline as they take things more than literally, especially if each of you feels as though each of you needs to be heard.  I am assuming that your 'not' was a typo, that I lined out for you.

She said a number of things that were unlike her normal responses.
things like, admitting blame, saying "I hope you don't think I think this is all your fault."
she admitted (without being asked about it) abandonment fears, and how she's "trained herself to deal" with them.
She mentioned not wanting to lead me on like she had in the past.
She said she "couldn't promise that this wouldn't happen again" (this is pretty big, even though it sounds bad, IMO)
This is absolute GOLD!  Yes, there will be setbacks, there has been in my relationship with my wife too.  For me, the difference is that my wife can now immediately recognize her mistake, and take corrective action instead of letting it become an all out rage - her previous dysregulation has become more regulated -- its not perfect, but it is a hell of a lot better.  You also need to be extra sensitive to her triggers, AND pre-triggered state, and reflect that back to her as soon as you see the pre-triggering, so she can learn to recognize it.

Although some of these things still seem negative, they are pretty self aware statements. To me, they show that therapy is helping. She still holds on to old grievances and arguments too much, and began the day with her typical type of response, which was to yell and get angry when she started processing her emotions.
Again "self-awareness" is KEY!  No relationship is perfect.  There will be disagreements, it is how these disagreements are handled will determine if a relationship will be pleasant or it will be horrendous.  You need to remember how long it took you to get to this point, for me it was two decades, you can't expect it to repair itself overnight magically.  The key to old grievances and arguments, is to forgive each other.  She needs to recognize the amount of resentment that she has about yelling and getting angry and work on those issues with her own individual therapist.

This conversation has given me hope that she is working on herself.
NOT that we will get back together. If that is ever a possibility, it will be a long time from now.
We both still have too much to do for ourselves.
She is focused on her stuff, I am focused on mine.
Today slackened a lot of tension, or so it feels. Communicating about anything in the future will be less emotional, as a lot of that was put to bed today.
Keep it real.  Yes, there is HOPE.  But keep it real.  Let her actions / inactions over time dictate what you are willing and unwilling to do in this relationship.  Whatever you do, do not rush back in [I need to follow my own advise on this too, as I want it to go faster, so I know the pull you are experiencing, as I am feeling it now -- be firm, I know you can do it].  Proceed at a 'dead slow speed' with your hand hovering over the emergency stop button, until you are certain, beyond a doubt, that she now has a reasonable amount of control over her emotions that you and your son can personally tolerate -- this takes time.

I do believe that if we both do what we need for ourselves, stay in therapy, and make improvements, a happy future is POSSIBLE for us.
Do I expect, hope or plan for that to happen?
No.
Keep it real.  Stated 'self-awareness' is totally awesome!  However, there is a tremendous amount of work that BOTH of you need to do to make it POSSIBLE.  Keep that "No", a "No" for now.  Be patient, watch, observe, and re-evaluate no sooner than 90 days from now [same time many employers use to see if an employee is a good fit, it is rare for someone to fake their personality for more than that time] to make it a 'maybe' - work with your therapist on this one.  Don't be afraid to reset that 90 day counter back to ZERO if there is a significant setback.  [example:  a full blown episode that is allowed to run the old course and isn't shortened or stopped by her]

I am still in the same boat, focused on getting my house for my son and I, and saving money and making healthier choices in recreation and diet. As with before, the ball is truly in her court, and she has a lot of field to cross before its close to being back in mine.
My path is set, and that's the path I'm taking. Her level of presence on that path is up to her, and It will be determined by her actions, over time. Just showing up isn't enough.
Dude, this is also GOLD!  Stay focused on you and your son - self-care first.  Let her show you that she wants the same thing as you do, "by her actions, over time"!

Today was a lot, but I'm feeling pretty at peace.
IT IS A LOT - DON'T DISCOUNT IT!  THIS IS AN AWESOME HOLIDAY GIFT - THE MOMENT OF "SELF-AWARENESS" FOR YOUR pwBPD!  CHERISH IT, STAY AT PEACE FOR THE HOLIDAYS AS A GIFT TO YOURSELF, AND DEAL WITH HARD WORK IN THE NEW YEAR!  [Sounds like a good 'New Year's Resolution' to me, it will definitely be mine!  ]

Now, I am going to keep it real for you.  I am still learning how this works, as it is not covered in the books and articles... and is ULTRA-RARE.

Now that she is becoming "Self-Aware" there WILL be setbacks.  She WILL make mistakes.  She is like a baby emotionally, and she is taking her first step(s) in good direction.  She WILL fall down, many times.  Do not judge her, or be harsh on her -- she will likely be her own hardest critic [at least in my case].  Only encourage her.  Give her genuine positive reinforcement [gratitude's] on things you like, and accomplishments that you see, no matter how minor they are [but don't overdo it].  If you are getting frustrated, express that you are, and then give her space after reassuring her that you will still be there.  Example:  "I am feeling frustrated, I am going to the next room to clear my head before I do something stupid.  I will be back once my head is clear."  If she follows you to the next room, get in your vehicle and leave, but reassure her that you will be back.  Learn communication techniques that will not put her down like the example I gave in this paragraph. 

If you have any questions -- do ask, as I am learning too. 

I have taken the time to [virtually] walk a mile in the borderline's shoes by going to a Facebook Support Group for u+d borderlines and non-borderlines who support their borderline, by diagnosed borderlines.  I mainly lurk there, unless specific questions are asked of the non-borderline, or no one is validating them on a legitimate feeling [like their partner cheating on them].  I have read their complaints, I have read how they think, I have read what they want in a relationship and how they want to be treated, and how they feel when the recognize that they are splitting and lashing out at their FP [favorite person] whether that is a friend, lover, or acquaintance.  It is definitely an eye opening experience as you will be exposed to all kinds of borderlines from exotic dancers to holy roller Christians, all in the same place.  I cannot list this group, as I have been previously moderated on posting it, PM me for the link or name of the group, if you are interested in doing this.

Keep in mind, this is the first step of long and difficult journey ahead of you.  Think of it as you just tied the game at the last second and you were loosing, and you are in overtime.  It is not over, but the other team has the advantage - make the best of it.

[OKrunch]

Salty,

Thank for for all that great advice and input!
Yesterday and into today, she has continued to be amicable, talkative and friendly.
Im not jumping the gun, and just matching her energy.

There is even a slight possibility I might see her on Xmas Eve.
There is certainly caution, on both sides.

But after the last few days, im happy to see a lot of progress. We talked more yesterday about therapy, whats working for us. Etc.

Were now just discussing video games, novels, all the normal stuff that brought us together in the first place.

Im not building hope or expectations yet. Hour by hour, day by day.

I will not let myself fall back to the bottom of the hill of recovery, if things go badly.
As i said in my last post. Forward is forward, and that path is just for me and my lad right now.
but I am starting to see her path becoming more clear through the treeline. They might converge.

I have had some unrelated family stressors that have messed up christmas plans, so there is much to do and take care of.

I. Feel. Good.
Mellow, calm, collected and unattached to an y specific result.

Happy Solstice and Holidays to you all.

Excelsior.

[SaltyDawg]

2-days in a row, that is a promising sign.
When she splits on you, how long does it last?  If it is hours, this is a good sign, however, if it is days -- keep your guard at maximum. 
Regardless of the circumstances, do not jump the gun, do keep your guard up, and do what is best for you and your son.

Seeing her on Xmas Eve, keep it BIFF.  Don't give it an opportunity to deteriorate.
I know you have overanalyzed the situation; so you have probably figured out her stressors too, avoid those, as you don't want to trigger her.  Observe if she is doing the same for you.

Don't go 'deep' on your conversation, keep it to small talk on the positive like you are doing and what brought you together in the first place.

Treat the 'feel good' feeling as a Christmas gift to you and your son.  Do some fun stuff with your son.  Make it memorable in a positive way.

Once the holidays are over, then ever so gently start moving, under the guidance of a 'high-conflict' couple's therapist towards any kind of reconciliation.  First thing to do is get mutually agreeable boundaries setup.  Then figure out what you are doing to trigger her, and if not too much trouble modify those behaviors.  If you can't think of anything, in front of the T, ask her, if the T doesn't do it.  Make little concessions, and there should be reciprocity [this is where I am in my journey] which will likely be a lot less than you want.  If you don't have a couple's T, get one, you will need it as my wife respects their decision, but not mine [yet].

Enjoy the 'Calm', make it last as self-care refresher.  Hopefully, it is not the calm before another storm.

Happy Holidays.

[OKrunch]

2-days in a row, that is a promising sign.
When she splits on you, how long does it last?  If it is hours, this is a good sign, however, if it is days -- keep your guard at maximum. 
Regardless of the circumstances, do not jump the gun, do keep your guard up, and do what is best for you and your son.

Seeing her on Xmas Eve, keep it BIFF.  Don't give it an opportunity to deteriorate.
I know you have overanalyzed the situation; so you have probably figured out her stressors too, avoid those, as you don't want to trigger her.  Observe if she is doing the same for you.

Don't go 'deep' on your conversation, keep it to small talk on the positive like you are doing and what brought you together in the first place.

Treat the 'feel good' feeling as a Christmas gift to you and your son.  Do some fun stuff with your son.  Make it memorable in a positive way.

Once the holidays are over, then ever so gently start moving, under the guidance of a 'high-conflict' couple's therapist towards any kind of reconciliation.  First thing to do is get mutually agreeable boundaries setup.  Then figure out what you are doing to trigger her, and if not too much trouble modify those behaviors.  If you can't think of anything, in front of the T, ask her, if the T doesn't do it.  Make little concessions, and there should be reciprocity [this is where I am in my journey] which will likely be a lot less than you want.  If you don't have a couple's T, get one, you will need it as my wife respects their decision, but not mine [yet].

Enjoy the 'Calm', make it last as self-care refresher.  Hopefully, it is not the calm before another storm.

Happy Holidays.

Her splits can last hours, to WEEKS. Although they seem to be lesser in duration that our last breakup.
im letting her pace the conversation. I don't want to overstep or come off as too rushed or needy.
She want's the kids to be able to talk on Messenger Kids.
Shes getting my son something for Christmas.

She is currently spamming me with pictures of our dogs.

[SaltyDawg]

Her splits can last hours, to WEEKS. Although they seem to be lesser in duration that our last breakup.
im letting her pace the conversation. I don't want to overstep or come off as too rushed or needy.

The gifts, the pictures, and kids messenger are re-establishing a bond to reduce her abandonment fears.

Sounds like you have a good plan, stick with it.  

In person contacts - f2f, or phone call, or video call can be problematic if you don't stick with your plan, and I seem to recall that as a potential issue for you.  Make sure that you are mentally prepared for that, as you are agreeing to that.  Keep it BIFF.

Edit to address the highlighted portion, I realized that I didn't finish as I was distracted by my children [poor excuse]:  Then you have to wait at least twice as long as her longest split to make sure that she is indeed turned around and is genuinely addressing issues in your relationship.  Also, definitely don't overstep, rush back in, or come off appearing needy.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS

note:  I will have a reduced presence for the next week, however, I will keep an eye on this thread, and respond when I can.

[Hamster411]

My Therapist's words -

"I feel like you handled that very well. You maintained very good control and set that boundary that you weren't going to fight. That is a great way to show action rather than just say things. The biggest thing that I am seeing is that she still blames you for everything and is not taking responsibility on her end. That is showing me that there isn't much in the way of progress on her end. So, with that being the case, this roller coaster is still going to follow the same patterns as before and she will continue to blame you for everything that goes wrong in her life, whether you guys are together or not. If you get back together, she will continue to point all these things out every time you guys argue. Keep that resolve because it is just going to be the same stuff ."

This is almost exactly what the therapist told me at the end of my relationship, and recommended that I walk away from it. She said no matter how much energy, how many skills I used on my end to not JADE or trigger, if SHE was not making the effort to embrace the treatment and genuinely want to change then the same patterns would continue over and over. It was up to me if I wanted to continue to remain on the emotional rollercoaster, and I decided I did not want to if things were not going to ever get better. In times like recently, when I do miss her, I try to remind myself of that. If the progress has not been made to contain this monster that is BPD then I cannot go down with the ship. I hope we both continue to find our way through this struggle.

[SaltyDawg]

Hamster,

   I agree with what the Therapists have said. 

   I personally believe the key is to get the pwBPD to become 'self-aware,' and if they have a moral conscience then they can actually start working on it.  Without self-awareness AND a moral compass, there is no hope.  And, even if they are self-aware, they need to do the work to get themselves better.  My pwBPD has been doing this for the past two months [she is partially self aware on her anger management issues; however, she is in denial of BPD and her T is using CBT and other therapies] now out of a 22 year relationship.  And even now, I am unsure if it is going to work; however, there is slow progress being made and it is looking better each week - we will see how the holidays go, and re-evaluate again.  I am hopeful; however, I am proceeding with my eyes wide open.  I know there will be some setbacks, and there has, after all it took 2 decades to get here, it is going to take some time to get better. 

   As long as progress is being made, I will stay by my pwBPD's side.  However, if they couldn't become self-aware, then I would likely considering separating -- I am glad that I am not there yet.  For a pwBPD to become self-aware, and actively work on themselves is ultra-rare.  It took two months after her becoming self-aware where I am really getting enough hope that it is for real; however, it is still to early to tell, but my 'gut feeling' tells me it is real.

   OKrunch's pwBPD, has finally made herself 'self-aware' a couple of days ago, and for the first time didn't blame him for everything, she took some ownership -- this is big; however, only time will tell if it is for real, or if it is a continuation of the push-pull trauma bonded relationship cycle. 

   I am documenting the progress here, and if successful, I might write a book on it , as I haven't really come across any literature for a BPD intervention [not recommended, but I needed to force the issue due to ongoing emotional damage occurring to our children].

   Wish and pray for OKrunch, myself, and all those who are going through this struggle.

SD

[OKrunch]

Things continued to improve, and yesterday midday we had a long phone chat. She brought up a lot of past hurts, and although she is no longer angry, she is still pretty adamant on not seeing each other in person. That conversation got a bit heavy, despite my efforts to keep the convo casual. Later in the day the convo warmed up again, and earlier today was much the same. She seems to be pulling away again now. her mood and opinions have been fluctuating back and forth.i had a decent feeling we might actually hang out later tonight.
I don't think that's going to happen now. My day tomorrow is full of errands and favors for other people. Not likely to be a very fun day.
She ended up in a sad, "I used to be prettier" mood yesterday.


I feel like I messed up somewhere yesterday or today. Kinda bummed out. I'm still matching her energy. I'm not going to over extend myself.
Feeling very alone right now.

Our kids have been talking on messenger.

[waverider]

.Has Christmas brought on any additional crisis, or is everything much the same ?

[SaltyDawg]

Things continued to improve, and yesterday midday we had a long phone chat. She brought up a lot of past hurts, and although she is no longer angry, she is still pretty adamant on not seeing each other in person. That conversation got a bit heavy, despite my efforts to keep the convo casual. Later in the day the convo warmed up again, and earlier today was much the same. She seems to be pulling away again now. her mood and opinions have been fluctuating back and forth.i had a decent feeling we might actually hang out later tonight.
I don't think that's going to happen now. My day tomorrow is full of errands and favors for other people. Not likely to be a very fun day.
She ended up in a sad, "I used to be prettier" mood yesterday.

I am a 3rd person, giving my 2 cents worth from your perspective alone having gone through something similar, but not as severe [separated in under the same roof].

Right now, she is probably conflicted in her emotions.  It's good that she is communicating 'a lot of past hurts'.  She is vocalizing how she is hurting, and probably recognizes that she hurt you too [if she is becoming self-aware].  You need to remember if she is a 'borderline'; her emotions are going to be multiplied on what you felt.  If she is expressing how you hurt her, and she is articulating why -- even if it only has a 'nugget' of truth, acknowledge that 'nugget', you need to validate her that she is having that emotion [even if it exaggerated from your perspective] by saying 'I can see how you feel, [if that part is valid, then add] I apologize for what I said, or did [without being too specific, since in your mind you are apologizing for the nugget -- if she presses, then TACTFULLY tell her about the 'nugget'].

Do listen carefully, and if she is hinting, or telling you that you need to change -- figure out what that 'change' is, and if it isn't too much effort for you, then do it, even if it makes no logical sense.  I know with my wife, she wanted me to stop needling her with pin pricks [sarcastic comments that others would laugh at, even though she was guilty of the very same thing to me] that would/could possibly irritate a normal person, but set off a borderline into a rage - it was my way of getting back at her after she attacked me.  I had to let go of my hard feelings, and feelings of resentment, and stop my sarcasm. 

Also, keep in mind today is Christmas Day, it is a day that families typically get together, and you are not physically present.  People who fear abandonment, it is especially hard for them on this day [you have your own fears, and it may likely be related to 'codependency' check with your therapist on this] -- she may be feeling very similar to you, but doesn't want the 'hurt' that goes along with it -- just as you don't want the 'hurt'.  This might be her way of not feeling abandoned.  However, if the 'self-realization' is still there that she has hurt you, if and when you talk to her today, make sure that that is still there, and gently express how you feel using "I" pronouns only.  Do not use the words 'you', 'but', or 'because' in expressing how you feel.  Both of you need to process, and acknowlege each others 'hurts'.


I feel like I messed up somewhere yesterday or today. Kinda bummed out. I'm still matching her energy. I'm not going to over extend myself.
Feeling very alone right now.

No doubt that you are feeling very alone right now.  However, don't be clingy and 'over extend' yourself, give her the space [don't call, but do send a short text wishing her 'Merry Christmas' - that way she knows you are thinking about her, and not forgetting about her, and she will call you when she is ready], don't smother the spark that you have had for the past few days, but don't let it go out either.  You know her the best, so you need to be sensitive to her emotions if you want to reconnect, and like her emotions towards you have changed, your emotions towards her must also stay changed to the 'kinder, gentler' you that have been forced to become.


Our kids have been talking on messenger.

Borderline women want to go the extra mile for their children, especially if they know they are messed up consciously or unconsciously.  Mine gives them way too many gifts, and showers them with attention when she is not splitting.  Also, my exBPD/NPDgf from the late 1990's also used this technique on me with her son to get me to stay when she was trying to h-o-o-v-e-r me back in.

Do be close enough to listen in and monitor the conversation, but not in his face as he needs to perceive that you are not listening in [kind of like taking photos, if they see your phone out to take pictures, mine would often not play nice, or have freakish poses, when you wanted to capture the spontaneity of them playing without you noticing.  Listen to what the kids are talking about, especially if it deals with you and her.  Children, often project what their parents are feeling, unfiltered, so you can gain some additional intel on the true status of your relationship by listening in to the seemingly innocent observations of the little ones.  If your son has said something about you that isn't quite right, figure out a way to communicate that with him in a 'teaching moment' not related to the video chat.  Under no circumstances, write your son's script, let it flow out naturally.  They are likely to talk about games, and fun stuff, or off topic stuff 99% of the time, you need to listen for that 1%.  What you hear may hurt, or may be comforting - don't act on it; however, use it a small puzzle piece, when building your navigational map on how to maneuver in your relationship with her.


Sorry for getting a bit too deep on this; but, that is how I would handle myself, if I were in your shoes.  It is Christmas, Happy Holidays.

[OKrunch]

Things are still going good. We've talked a few times since my last post. A lot has just been casual conversation, she was the one to initiate conversation today. It's just a slow burn for now. I was getting anxious before because she didn't answer me, which is honestly something I need to work on considering my attachment behaviors. Anxious this does not make me a good decisions. She just fall asleep wrapping Christmas presents, and got back to me in the morning. I was able to really focus on what I was doing and where I was being present, today spending time with my friends. Helping my best friend hang some shelves in his freshman for the computer room. It was nice together with the guys and get the project done. I'm starting to feel normal again. I'm even still comfortable if the conversations that we are having don't go in as much of a productive area as I would probably like. I feel like the conversations we have had have provided closure if nothing else, but it's absolutely going in the right direction in my opinion.

[OKrunch]

She told me today she was going to ask me to come over and chill last night, but didnt want her daughter hearing me or getting confused at my presence. It was nice to know she wanted to spend time with me. this is a huge step.

[SaltyDawg]

Sounds good, just chill, relax, take it nice and slow, let her do it at a pace that's comfortable to her.

Baby steps.

[OKrunch]

Just wanted to come in and drop an update before I took some time off to just do my thing and focus on my kid. Conversation between her and I has been pretty good over the past week or so. There have been a few times where we have discussed even hanging out, there's definitely still some hot and cold though. There are times where she just kind of doesn't answer for a while, but I don't overdo it and send too many texts I just wait for her to get back to me when she's not busy.  It's just hard to be having a pleasant conversation, but still feel like I'm kept at arm's length because we still haven't hung out.



We have had more conversations where she has made a lot of really constructive self-aware statements. She said she's cautious because she doesn't want to do this to me again oh, she has talked about dysregulation and spiraling into depressive episodes. She has talked about defense mechanisms and pushing people away. Honestly the only key word that she has not herself mentioned is the word splitting. She is very clearly doing some introspective work, and I do not want to complicate that by being overly needy or anxious. That being said, it has been tough because the more we talk and the more that we are friendly and talk about the possibility of hanging out, the more my anxious mindset wants to get me to obsessively think over it. It has taken some conscious effort on my end to keep that sort of thing in a reasonable place. The few times I have tried to be a little bit flirty, she has not shied away from it, but she has not really jumped in and participated either. I have stepped back from doing that.



Another thing she has discussed is her inability to let go of grudges. Not even specifically regarding me, but with her father's daughter and members of her family as well. I know that she fears that she's never going to be able to truly let go of some of the things from our past that she is hung up on.



So we have a lot of progress, and there are still definitely some roadblocks to overcome.



  I have my first therapy session in over a week this evening, I have not spoken with my therapist very much since her and I started talking as much as we have been so I am very interested to discuss things with her today and see what the best course of action is. At this point I'm really just wondering what the best methods I have to rebuild trust, attraction, desire. She has been pretty reserved about mentioning it, but several things she has done or said has definitely let me know that she misses me. On the other hand, I still don't know if she's trying to talk to anyone else. I still don't know if she is fighting her feelings for me. There are a lot of unknown factors here.



I just guess I have to keep doing what I've been doing. Making sure she knows I'm hearing her, making sure she knows that her feelings are validated. I have been very clear about the fact that I'm not trying to move back in and I'm not trying to pretend like nothing ever happened. I have mentioned that anything that happens in the future is going to be a new book, not just a new chapter of the same book from before. That being said I try to keep the serious topics to a minimum, because at the end of the day, I miss my best friend.



Playing the slow game is hard, especially when I know how much I love this woman. I'm so proud of the development I have seen in myself and her. Just have to keep reminding myself it's a marathon not a Sprint.



Any advice anyone has on correctly retracting I'd be happy to hear your input. I hope everyone here had a wonderful holiday, you are all such a supportive wonderful amazing group of people.



I will check back in after New Year's, unless something monumentous happens. I'm heading up to spend the weekend with my son at my parents the day after tomorrow and I'm really looking forward to it

[SaltyDawg]

What did your therapist say?

Awesome, please be sure to give her the space she needs, to process what she has done, she is clearly doing stuff with a therapist, let that process work.  It sounds like, it has been excellent progress, however, it will take time for her to come around.


Even if she is not calling it a splitting episode, she is still calling it an episode.  Don't get stuck on the details, if the process is working.

I know you want to reconnect at the speed that you first met her with, I know the feeling all too well, however when needs to be patient in this particular scenario, do not suffocate her with your own feelings and issues, she is probably not able to process it right now.

Regarding the grudges, she needs to forgive you, even though my therapist is to forget it, it's impossible to do that.  I found that one my wife was flooding, and are raging, and I would retaliate with similar type words back, for a fraction of the time, she helps a scratches against me when she becomes normal baseline again, it sucks as it is a bit of a double standard.

Do talk to your therapist, and see what they say.

When you get a chance, if you could share what your therapist said would be greatly appreciated.

Please be as patient as you can possibly be with her, let her figure things out, don't give her any more ammunition against you than you've already done, let things play out as she processes what she has done.

Do provid her with constructive feedback only using 'I' pronouns only if she asks for it in your conversations with her. Do not rush getting back together face-to-face, as she does not have the safety net of hanging up her phone if things become heated.

[OKrunch]

What did your therapist say?

Awesome, please be sure to give her the space she needs, to process what she has done, she is clearly doing stuff with a therapist, let that process work.  It sounds like, it has been excellent progress, however, it will take time for her to come around.


Even if she is not calling it a splitting episode, she is still calling it an episode.  Don't get stuck on the details, if the process is working.

I know you want to reconnect at the speed that you first met her with, I know the feeling all too well, however when needs to be patient in this particular scenario, do not suffocate her with your own feelings and issues, she is probably not able to process it right now.

Regarding the grudges, she needs to forgive you, even though my therapist is to forget it, it's impossible to do that.  I found that one my wife was flooding, and are raging, and I would retaliate with similar type words back, for a fraction of the time, she helps a scratches against me when she becomes normal baseline again, it sucks as it is a bit of a double standard.

Do talk to your therapist, and see what they say.

When you get a chance, if you could share what your therapist said would be greatly appreciated.

Please be as patient as you can possibly be with her, let her figure things out, don't give her any more ammunition against you than you've already done, let things play out as she processes what she has done.

Do provid her with constructive feedback only using 'I' pronouns only if she asks for it in your conversations with her. Do not rush getting back together face-to-face, as she does not have the safety net of hanging up her phone if things become heated.

My therapist was excited for the news, and told me about how this is showing my work with boundaries, validating communication and patience. She is definitely doing work with the therapist, and doing a lot of reading on her own. Lots of stoicism.
Reconnecting at the same speed as before is a doom, if that happens this will fail. Patience, and calm is the key here I agree.
We already did the instant reconnect and it blew up in our face once. Wont be doing that again.

I agree about the grudges, itll be the hardest thing to overcome. She is already making steps. She has said that some of the things are petty, but she still has hard feelings about them. It'll come with time and more validating conversation.

My therapist is very realistic, she has told me it will take sacrifice on my part to make this work. She has said that my EX has a good heart, and that she is a perfect example of what trauma can do to a good person. She is good at keeping me realistic, cautious and not getting myself too excited or hopeful.
When I began telling my therapist some of the things my ex has said in the last week, she was visibly excited. She sees real development here, and said its clear she is focused on her recovery. All good news. She congratulated me on the progress and basically told me to keep up doing what I've been doing.

So she did end up stopping by and hang out for a little bit yesterday. We just hung out and caught up, laughed and talked.  Things were all pretty casual up until the last like 5 minutes. She then told me that she still needed space and time to figure things out for herself. She said she needs to get her routines in order. She mentioned that we've been texting a bit much lately, and literally asked me to let her kind of pace the conversations. She did also say "it feels like im doing something im not supposed to by being here". She mentioned she has a tendency to become obsessed with the relationship. She wants to focus on her stuff and getting where she needs to meet which I am in full support of. I said that I would like the opportunity someday to take her on a legit date. Literally start fresh. Her response to that was please wait until I let you know that I'm comfortable with that.  To which I agreed. She texted me this morning and thanked me for being able to talk about these things in person. She said it meant a lot. I told her it meant a lot to me as well.

I got a big hug when she left last night.

[SaltyDawg]

That is awesome news.

Don't rush things. Let her set the pace, on everything.

Definitely do not get too excited or hopeful, keep your expectations low, that way if they are exceeded you will be pleasantly surprised.

There will be good days and bad days ahead. I'm in the middle of a bad day with my wife right now and she is splitting me black today after a month of excellent behavior [for her], so there are setbacks, hopefully tomorrow will be a better day.  At least she didn't rage when I reflected back to her that she was treating me badly. Other than accusing me of saying that I am the eternal victim.

Let her set the pace, at what she is comfortable with.

Even though I'm having a bad day with my wife, I am very happy for you that you're having an awesome day with yours.

[OKrunch]

Okay so time for an update. Things have been going well. We have been communicating everyday. We had talked about spending some time together on Monday night. Monday evening rolled around and she originally told me that she had put a lot of thought into it, and decided it still wasn't a good idea to hang out. She then texted me about a half an hour later and said that she thought she was being overly cautious and paranoid oh, and then she did want to hang out. I got some food and went over and we spent some time watching a movie and having our dinner. I got to spend a lot of time with my dogs and it was wonderful. Throughout the night things got more relaxed and casual. Eventually we had some cuddling type contact on the couch while watching the movie. We ended up getting intimate that night. Communication has still been good since, we have established some expectations and boundaries.



She is still saying she's focused on herself. Her growth and her development. Which is exactly what needs to be going on. All of our conversation so far since has been pretty casual and flirty.



Today I reassured her that I didn't want her to feel pressured, and just wanted to be able to be myself when communicating with her in regards to how often I am flirty or say affectionate things.



She replied as follows " I understand and I do appreciate it. As you know, I am still trying to focus inwardly. I'm afraid too much affection with someone that I have a history that is both intense and tense would not help me progress in the way that I want to"



I responded by saying " I understand, I do not want you to lose the traction of your forward Focus. Obviously you know that, long-term, I would like to make this work. As I have said, I want you to be comfortable and confident through any interactions we have.



Just know that even if I am saying affectionate or flirty things, I do understand where things are at and where your focus is. Obviously it would be wonderful to hear you say things like that you love me and that you miss me, but I know that will come when the time is right. I am here for you no matter what"

________________________________________________

honestly the only thing that really concerns me right now is if she were to start talking with another guy. I do not believe that that is the case, I don't think that that is happening. I know I'm probably nitpicking, I guess the only thing that  kind of scared me with her statement was when she said " too much affection with someone that I have a history with"

I have not outright ask her if she is talking to or seeing anyone else. I'm confident that she would tell me  if that was the case, but obviously it is still something that I worry about.



There has been nothing but improvement over the last few weeks so I'm not complaining. I did not think things were going to get physical or intimate at all on Monday night, and they did. I went into that with zero expectations and I let her lead the way. That is what I will continue to do. I know that she is holding things in reserve. I'm sure she has emotions that she is trying to hold back. She has told me before that she is afraid of becoming too wrapped up in a relationship and having it stifle the progress she is making herself. So rather than worrying about somebody else in the picture, I need to realize that she's just making sure that she has the tools she needs to be the best she can be. I understand her focus and it is the right thing. Being patient after seeing her and being intimate again is proving to be quite difficult, but I suppose there's a new challenge every day.

[SaltyDawg]

Throughout the night things got more relaxed and casual. Eventually we had some cuddling type contact on the couch while watching the movie. We ended up getting intimate that night. Communication has still been good since, we have established some expectations and boundaries.
Things are moving at light speed is advised.  Definitely talk to your T about this.



She replied as follows " I understand and I do appreciate it. As you know, I am still trying to focus inwardly. I'm afraid too much affection with someone that I have a history that is both intense and tense would not help me progress in the way that I want to"
This is the reason why is advised.  You might be overwhelming her and she might get cold feet really fast.  Do find out what kind of 'progress' she is wanting.


honestly the only thing that really concerns me right now is if she were to start talking with another guy. I do not believe that that is the case, I don't think that that is happening. I know I'm probably nitpicking, I guess the only thing that  kind of scared me with her statement was when she said " too much affection with someone that I have a history with"

I have not outright ask her if she is talking to or seeing anyone else. I'm confident that she would tell me  if that was the case, but obviously it is still something that I worry about.
Those thoughts of yours might be ANTs [automatic negative thoughts].  You have already indicated it is unlikely for her to do that.  Especially in light of your intimacy earlier [albeit too fast], and you are confident that she would tell you if that were the case.  However, I do understand your reasoning based on what you shared with your first post in this thread.


There has been nothing but improvement over the last few weeks so I'm not complaining. I did not think things were going to get physical or intimate at all on Monday night, and they did. I went into that with zero expectations and I let her lead the way. That is what I will continue to do. I know that she is holding things in reserve. I'm sure she has emotions that she is trying to hold back. She has told me before that she is afraid of becoming too wrapped up in a relationship and having it stifle the progress she is making herself. So rather than worrying about somebody else in the picture, I need to realize that she's just making sure that she has the tools she needs to be the best she can be. I understand her focus and it is the right thing. Being patient after seeing her and being intimate again is proving to be quite difficult, but I suppose there's a new challenge every day.

Sounds like a 'grand-slam' home run.  Enjoy it.  Let her be in the driver's seat and let her lead the way.

I am really really happy for you.

I don't want to be a 'downer', but...

However, just 'keeping it real.'  Don't let your guard down.  The typical borderline relationship cycle is this:

love bomb --> devalue --> discard --> recycle [repeat]

It is important to break this cycle, and stay in the 'love bomb' portion, and not get to the next devalue stage.  Just look at your first post in this thread where you have already documented this cycle.  Does this one feel different?  Just trying to keep you focused.

I've been reading a book recommended by someone who is in a similar situation to ours [about halfway through reading it], she is using the tools in that book to attempt to break the cycle.  It has a religious slant to it and was originally written in 1986; however, I feel that it may be helpful in preventing the devalue and subsequent phases if followed [a 15 hour per week commitment]. 

"His Needs, Her Needs: Building a Marriage That Lasts" by Willard F. Jr. Harley

Good luck, but keep it real, definitely don't rush, and let her sort out things.  You also need to sort out your feelings and ensure that both of you are on the same page.

Take care, and HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[OKrunch]

We hung out again last night, this was a lot more low key. Just cuddles on the couch with the dogs, and we fell asleep together on the couch.

Salty, this does not feel like love bombing at all. She has been pretty reserved with her words, has mentioned not wanting me to get false ideas that were getting totally back together. On the other hand, Monday she said "this probably wont happen again for a while" in regards to hanging out, but we hung out last night. She said she felt very relaxed, at ease and did a lot of unwinding last night.

Prior to hanging out she did mention that "we cant put the cart before the horse" to which i replied, "the cart is still at the wainwright." she chuckled and agreed, we both are still working on ourselves.

The biggest hurdle it seems to me right now is that she doesn't want family and friends to know were hanging out.
We have broken up twice, and she has had friends advise against the relationship before, because we used to fight so much.
So I am afraid that she will ultimately decide that despite both of our feelings, she cannot get back with me due to social pressures or how she might be perceived by others. It is obviously a complicated situation with a lot of messy history, but I, as i always have, believe in the good outweighing the bad, and that we can rise above our past, our disagreements and truly choose each other for life.

Still a long long road ahead, but I am very pleased with where things seem to be going.
That said, I am very aware that this could all fizzle out, that this may not be what is fated.
I keep my guard up in this regard at all times.

[SaltyDawg]

We hung out again last night, this was a lot more low key. Just cuddles on the couch with the dogs, and we fell asleep together on the couch.
Good deposits in each other's love bank. 


Salty, this does not feel like love bombing at all.
I'm glad that your gut feeling tells you that it is not love bombing.


She has been pretty reserved with her words, has mentioned not wanting me to get false ideas that were getting totally back together.

It would appear that she is testing the waters yet once again, and is unsure if she wants to get back together with you.  She is just letting you know if you cannot satisfy her emotionally, she will leave, and she's giving you advance to warning.  However, if you keep on making deposits into her love bank, this will become less and less. However, if you unintentionally withdraw from that love bank by doing something stupid or something she doesn't like inadvertently, she is leaving the option of leaving you open. 

Yes, this is a form of 'walking on eggshells'. However until the situation stabilizes, you need to be on Best Behavior. And I'm also going to suggest due to the sensitive nature of borderlines where their emotional states are heightened, you will need to practice some form of walking on eggshells that you can accept, by changing the way you walk to something that will not crush the eggshells as readily by being on best behavior for the foreseeable future.



Prior to hanging out she did mention that "we cant put the cart before the horse" to which i replied, "the cart is still at the wainwright." she chuckled and agreed, we both are still working on ourselves.

It sounds like both of you are keeping a good perspective on this. Don't let your expectations get too high, otherwise it will be a 'planned disappointment'.

The biggest hurdle it seems to me right now is that she doesn't want family and friends to know were hanging out.

That is understandable. As she has broken up with you twice previously. So her friends may start to wonder about her emotional stability with you if they see that you are back in her life, again.  My suggestion is to you - Keep it low key, let her set the pace, and do no pressure.


So I am afraid that she will ultimately decide that despite both of our feelings, she cannot get back with me due to social pressures or how she might be perceived by others.

I can stand understand pressures from family being rather excessive and can destroy a relationship. However I believe friends would have less influence, unless you specifically know otherwise - you know your particular situation best. Therefore, I was a just thinking of in analogy with this being a baseball game, you have two strikes, and you don't want to strike out.  She is obviously testing the waters once again, and if it fails this time, with strike three, you're out.


Still a long long road ahead, but I am very pleased with where things seem to be going.
That said, I am very aware that this could all fizzle out, that this may not be what is fated.
I keep my guard up in this regard at all times.

I'm very happy for you; however, please be aware that there will likely be setbacks. It is the degree of the setback that will determine if the relationship is to survive. It is also how the setbacks or disagreements work and how you and her both handle it will also determine how the relationship will move forward.

In my own particular situation, i've already have the feeling that it needs to be about 2 years of relative peace before I will even begin to consider letting my guard down and of course that will be based upon my feelings on how the relationship has been progressing.  During the holidays there were two minor setbacks, however, I'm keeping track of the dates on each of those, one was somewhat significant with domestic violence a punch the other was a medium with a major splitting me black incident.  My individual therapist seems to think that these are acts of self-sabotage which is a trait of the borderline when things are getting better, or 'too good'. 

If you are aware of these potential acts of self-sabotage then you can plan for them, and not get angry when they do happen.  I personally believe this is a form of radical acceptance, a DBT skill.  If and when these setbacks do occur, please do not get angry, coolly point out the boundary that she has crossed one time while 'in the act,' wait till she is baseline, and then discuss it with or without a couple's therapist.  In order for a relationship to survive emotional abuse or other abuse needs to stop, and mutual respect should be established. If you let her walk over you you will lose her respect, if you come on too strong you will lose her respect, you need to find the sweet spot in between, and that is where a therapist can help you out, and that is where respect will be developed.

Please do make and set boundaries, and maintain those boundaries. The boundaries I have set are no violence either physical or emotional as a prerequisite for continuing in my relationship with my wife.

In any event, a good mantra to follow is 'hope and pray for the best, but prepare for the worst.'

good luck and take care.

[OKrunch]

Well, one of my fears has been realized.
She is at least dating other people.

I got told she was going home to fold laundry. A friend told me she had someone over the house after he had driven by. ( I did not ask for this info, he just texted me asking if I knew if she was seeing someone, it was late at night and a car was still there)

She had a dating profile months back, so its not a huge surprise.
It's just hard because she hasn't mentioned seeing other people, in fact she said she wasn't. "I'm not doing the rebound thing this time around"

Not much I can do, but It still makes the personal progress we've made feel...watered down.
I don't know if this is the first time in a while, or has been a consistent thing for her.

It makes me feel like a backup plan. We had talked about seeing eachother tonight. She chose to see someone else.

Feeling defeated right now, but not the spiraling depressing on anxious mess I would have been finding out this information 2 months ago. So theres that I guess.

[SaltyDawg]

Well, one of my fears has been realized.
She is at least dating other people.
Make sure this isn't an ANT (Automatic Negative Thought)

I got told she was going home to fold laundry. A friend told me she had someone over the house after he had driven by. ( I did not ask for this info, he just texted me asking if I knew if she was seeing someone, it was late at night and a car was still there)
It could be a girlfriend who is helping her sort out feelings or just visiting.  You don't know who that 'someone' is.

She had a dating profile months back, so its not a huge surprise.
It's just hard because she hasn't mentioned seeing other people, in fact she said she wasn't. "I'm not doing the rebound thing this time around"
Make sure it not ANTs.

Not much I can do, but It still makes the personal progress we've made feel...watered down.
I don't know if this is the first time in a while, or has been a consistent thing for her.
More ANTs.

It makes me feel like a backup plan. We had talked about seeing eachother tonight. She chose to see someone else.
Could be, could be a girlfriend, who knows.  Wait and see what happens in the upcoming days.

Feeling defeated right now, but not the spiraling depressing on anxious mess I would have been finding out this information 2 months ago. So theres that I guess.
Definitely try not to spiral, use some coping mechanisms if you have those.  Do call up your T, and talk to your T about your feelings.  You are emotionally sensitive then, and now too.

Take care of yourself.