Always Maybe - Patterns and Cycles?

[OKrunch]

Hello everybody, I have been reading posts here for how about two months now. I have a few questions, but let me give kind of a background breakdown first.
I'm currently 35, with one child from a previous relationship, my son is 7.
She also has a daughter from a previous relationship who is 11.
Our kids get along SO WELL, they love eachother.



Oct 2019 - Met Ex/Estranged GF, Relationship started off well. Slow, open communication.

Dec 2019 - Relationship gets serious. we become exclusive.

March 2020 - (albiet rushed, due to Covid) we Moved in together. Things are still great.

June 2020 - We got on an amazing vacation to get a puppy.

August 2020 - Things begin to decline, fights increase, she begins pulling away.

Nov/Dec 2020 - She has been berating and devaluing me for months now. She snaps and kicks me (and my son) out. I move to a friends house two towns over.

Feb/March 2021 - after a period of NC, she begins reaching out, but is dating someone else. I set my boundaries and said don't reach out unless its with non-platoinic intent.



April/June 2021 - Periodical contact continues, she hints that rebound guy is gone, but then he isn't. then he is.



June/July 2021 - Rebound guy is gone, and we begin hanging out again.

Aug 2021 - We get back together and I move back in.

Aug 21 - Jan 2022 - Things are pretty great.

Jan-March 2022 - She hits a seasonal depression hard, i am very supportive despite many fights. Things eventually improve.

April - June 2022 - She has gotten a great new job, things are amazing, we take a great vacation with the kids. Got a 2nd puppy. I proposed on the vacation in June, she jubilantly says yes. The kids are thrilled.



July 2022 - Sept 2022 - The decline begins almost as soon as we are settled back in from vacation. Small fights turn into big ones. 1 week silent treatment spells. She drinks for the first time in YEARS. She also had many Medication changes and forgot to take meds many times during this period. She had started at a new Gym about this time and would stop about how amazing it was blah blah.

Sept 22nd - She snaps again and DEMANDS me (and my son) dont come home.

Oct 2022 - She is mean, cold cruel and demanding regarding moving my stuff out.

Nov 6th - After about 4 weeks of NC, she messages me saying she needs to talk about something important. Then when i didnt immediately call, she says "its no big deal nevermind" i told her to call me later that day, she does and informs me she is pregnant and has a termination appointment. Has been pregnant since late July and didnt know (i actually believe this, she has repoductive health complications that would mask a pregnancy) She blames pregnancy hormones for her reactions and mood swings in July-Sept. But tells me im to blame because of my reactions to them.
During the days leading up to the termination appointment, she is warm and almost flirty.
Then the appointment comes and goes, she is still in touch, updating me on her condition. Then backs off again. The next week she reached out to discuss our cat that had ran off. I asked about meeting up to catch up, and got a "maybe", which turned into a "we had better not" after i again stated i have no intentions on a platonic relationship.



Today - I had gone back to NC since the week of Nov 13th. She texted this morning asking about stuff related to the house/rent. We have had a warmish convo today and again i asked about hanging out this coming weekend. Got another "Ill think about it"

and she added "im still worried about the percentage of possibility that hangs over the situation", which is in reference to the "i cant be friends, ill always have feelings and we have too much history for me to not pursue you in a romantic fashion if we were to meet up in person" i had told her last week.

She has not been responsive to the light amount of flirt i put into todays conversation, so im expecting that the "ill think about it" will turn into another "We had better not" by the weekend.
--------------------------------------------------------------

She seems to dysregulate every year around between July and Sept.

2019 - She had left her ex "A few months back" when we first met in Oct 2019.
2020 - I was devalued through the fall, and discarded and sent packing the last week of Nov.

2021 - She devalued rebound fella around July/August. Was fine with me thru Christmas, but Jan-March were awful.
2022 - April through June were great, and then the rapid devalue after the engagement led to being kicked out almost the same time as I had been in 2020. I am blocked on all but texting, and i know she made a tinder. So despite "working on herself" she ahs her dating feelers out.



She is DIAGNOSED cptsd, and her therapist has mentioned many borderline tendencies. Very strong background of childhood abuse. Her therapy didnt really begin in ernest for these things until this summer/fall. Previously all her mental health care came via her primary care doctor.

So here are my questions :
1. Whats up with the constant Maybe's? she did this a bit during 2021 also, but i had assumed this was because of rebound guy.
2.  I am working with MY therapist to figure out why i cannot let go of this. But man its hard. Why do i love someone who hurts me? when she is not dysregulated she is the most caring, kind, driven and intelligent woman ever.

3. Since we BEGAN to have an understanding of her trauma, needs and triggers, i really feel like we can overcome this. But i may just be hopeful.

4. The cyclical nature and rerepeated patterns of the BPD fascinate me, has anyone else seen these types of consistent patterns?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[OKrunch]

Also worth mentioning. This is her last chance to say something productive.
If this "Ill think about it" turns into a no, I am going to send something to this effect in response. Let me know if there is anything you'd change about this.

"While I appreciate you taking the time to consider hanging out again, I will not continue to ask.
Additionally, I must ask for you to only reach out if it is crucially important to do so, or if you have romantic intentions. I can not hang around waiting to be your second choice or backup plan. When i asked you to be my wife, i offered you all of who I am, and i was very sad when things broke down again and you backed away from that commitment, and the commitment to the family we were building. I never would have left, and always wanted to make things work.  There have been several instances where you have reached out recently that weren't totally necessary to do so. If you need to speak to the landlord, you can, its your house and I don't live there anymore by your choice, I am no longer involved in the household and you can manage those things yourself. The same can be said of the assistance program. You have contacts for both of these things and could have handled them without reaching out to me. While I know you care about me, the push and pull type of dynamic you have been exhibiting is too stressful for me to deal with, so again, unless you have romantic intents, please refrain from reaching out to me and as you put it "Disrupting the peace I am building". Please either mail my remaining belongings or drop them off at my work. You can just Venmo me the assistance money on the first of the month each month. I have always wanted to fix things and work together through therapy and mutual communication. I do believe you are my soul mate, but i cannot work on a one sided relationship.

If you change your mind and want to spend time together, you know that I am welcome to that idea. I miss talking with you and enjoying eachcothers company. I miss your humor and your wit, but I cannot entertain the idea of a platonic relationship with you and unless you have romantic intent or at least are open to that idea in the future, please let me have space.

Thank you, I hope you are well, Best Wishes.

[OKrunch]

While i was typing the above, she texted me and told me that she doesnt think hanging out is a good idea. I sent the message i typed above. Well see if i get a response.

Honestly putting up a healthy barrier feels good. It hurts but it feels productive.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

Welcome to the 'family'.

I'm limited on time, and your 'text' message also indicates that you have a pretty good head on your shoulders and you know what you want.  To me your explanation is very reasonable; however, rarely in a borderline relationship will it work that way.  As I have limited time I will give you some short answers, if you want me to expand let me know, and I will in the next day or two.

1. Whats up with the constant Maybe's? she did this a bit during 2021 also, but i had assumed this was because of rebound guy.
it's a girl's way of thinking that she has insurance and will not commit to anything, so she has an 'out' if she changes her mind.  I don't think that this is BPD, as my pwBPD [undiagnosed wife] doesn't do this, but I did notice this in another relationship that was not BPD, but more of not knowing what she wants, and wants to be able to change her mind with little to no consequence.  If anything I have observed that it is the opposite with a BPD where there is a definite "yes/no" answer as it is part of the "black/white" thinking patterns that they have, I rarely get a 'maybe'.

2.  I am working with MY therapist to figure out why i cannot let go of this. But man its hard. Why do i love someone who hurts me? when she is not dysregulated she is the most caring, kind, driven and intelligent woman ever.
More than likely the 'trauma bond' working here with a 'push-pull' relationship that you have already identified as you described in your text message.

3. Since we BEGAN to have an understanding of her trauma, needs and triggers, i really feel like we can overcome this. But i may just be hopeful.
With my pwBPD, these change if she is 'splitting' or not.  Her triggers vary from day to day, and there are hundreds of them.  While you can account for many of them, you cannot account for all of them, especially with other interpersonal dynamics, such as those at her work, family, and aquaintences.  In order for this to change, she needs to become 'self-aware,' and she needs to do the changing which is unlikely unless she is 'self-aware'.  You cannot fix her.  You can only change you, not her.  Drill down on "SaltyDawg" [to the left] to see some of my other posts on my struggle to get my wife become 'self-ware.'  Keep in mind this is exceptionally rare where they become 'self-aware' so they can do the necessary work on doing the right thing and make things better.

4. The cyclical nature of repeated patterns of the BPD fascinate me, has anyone else seen these types of consistent patterns?
Yes, there are indeed many many patterns, large ones, and small ones, and they have different frequencies.  Most of the smaller ones last several minutes to a few hours, occasionally a few days, but rarely longer than that [splitting and rages].  Then there are larger patterns too of the 'lovebombing, devalue, discard, h-o-o-v-e-r' cycle that you so meticulously documented with your detailed timeline that is typical for BPD/NPD.

  potentially triggering content follows, only because this post is in the "Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup" section  

Your text message has a thinly veiled ultimatum in it.  Do not make ultimatums unless you are willing to follow through on it.

I also recommend reading up on it, you will get a lot more explanation there than you would in therapy -- these two are good starter books on the topic:

Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life
Book by Margalis Fjelstad

Stop Walking on Eggshells
Book by Paul T. Mason and Randi Kreger

[OKrunch]

Thank you for your kind words, and wise ones. I will definitley look into those books.

She did not respond very well to the message i sent.
She mentioned she had been up front about her emotions (which she had, but other times been flirty). She accused me of being incessant, and blaming her. She said "I was too angry to even finish reading this"

My concept is this. If she reaches out, and we get chatty, eventually after a dozen or so texts, I ask to hang out in person, because im not interested in texted breadcrumbs. Show up or don't.

So my "being incessant" has been that ive asked to hang out the last two times she has gotten chatty with me. Both which ended in the same response. "Ill think about it" which turns that day or the day after to "its best we shouldn't. too many messy emotions"

She has also said Several times in the past "She CANT say no to me", like I am some sort of addictive substance. Today i was accused of using this knowledge to my advantage to be manipulative.

So there have been ways she has been up front about being unsure, and having "messy emotions" and so on. Did I err here?

[waverider]

The past is a clear indication of the future. While you may understand the mechanisms of BPD YOU cant reverse it. The dramas and issues are symptoms of the disorder. Fixing individual symptoms does not change the process. Fresh new versions of these symptoms will simply replace them.

BPD thinking is a fundamental way someone process their thoughts, sometimes they have toxic presentations, sometimes not, but the process is the same and presentation is often a reflection of whether their immediate needs are being met.

The more you know about BPD then the more the "good" presentations become tarnished as the authenticity and ulterior motives start to be questioned. So the highs become less of a recompense, your praise in response becomes less this then triggers invalidation, leading to escalation.

You have a son who is also a pinball in this relationship game, be careful you are responsible for the influences he is exposed to, you cant have this time over again.

Having you within reach, but at arms length, is validating, and also fending off abandonment issues, a classic BPD symptom which is not normally present in CPTSD.

Also be wary of CPTSD diagnosis as pwBPD will often prefer this diagnosis and will prevent evidence to therapists to guide it this way, as this implies being victim. Endless imagined victimhood is a BPD presentation.

Bottom line is all will not be as it seems to be, and the past is not over with a new fresh beginning in the offering. Can you live with a rinse repeat?

[OKrunch]

Thanks for the replies thus far.

Yea, despite my "Savior" complex, i have learned from our first breakup/reconcilliation/breakup that I cannot fix or prompt the fixing of this. Only therapy can help there, and she needs to want it.

I do feel bad after yesterday's interaction, and here is why.

I had sent my message that clearly stated "Dont lead me on". The thing she flipped out about was the fact that i had implied this, when she HAS been upfront about her not having emotions for our relationship, or romantic intent.
So i mentioned being lead on, when i should have said something to the effect of "you keeping this open line of casual communication is not conducive with my healing process" or something.

There have been comments in the recent past that could certainly be "leading on", such as,

" I don't want to build up any hope in that department yet"
" i had considered that" (when i asked about not having labels, being intimate, and just trying to start fresh, this was right around the pregnancy situation)
"I'm not ready for that yet"
and constantly being told "maybe" or "ill think about it" when offered to spend time together.

Part of me feels like she flipped out because I was perceivably "taking back power".
Maybe she was just offended by the thought i was being lead on?

I cant seem to stop trying to rationalize and understand these triggers and patterns.
My job is very slow and i have a lot of time alone at work, which doesnt help in my ruminating.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

I will highlight a few quotes that stand out for me from you and waverider...

Also worth mentioning. This is her last chance to say something productive.
If this "Ill think about it" turns into a no, I am going to send something to this effect in response. Let me know if there is anything you'd change about this.

"While I appreciate you taking the time to consider hanging out again, I will not continue to ask.
Additionally, I must ask for you to only reach out if it is crucially important to do so, or if you have romantic intentions. I can not hang around waiting to be your second choice or backup plan. When i asked you to be my wife, i offered you all of who I am, and i was very sad when things broke down again and you backed away from that commitment, and the commitment to the family we were building. I never would have left, and always wanted to make things work.  There have been several instances where you have reached out recently that weren't totally necessary to do so. If you need to speak to the landlord, you can, its your house and I don't live there anymore by your choice, I am no longer involved in the household and you can manage those things yourself. The same can be said of the assistance program. You have contacts for both of these things and could have handled them without reaching out to me. While I know you care about me, the push and pull type of dynamic you have been exhibiting is too stressful for me to deal with, so again, unless you have romantic intents, please refrain from reaching out to me and as you put it "Disrupting the peace I am building". Please either mail my remaining belongings or drop them off at my work. You can just Venmo me the assistance money on the first of the month each month. I have always wanted to fix things and work together through therapy and mutual communication. I do believe you are my soul mate, but i cannot work on a one sided relationship.

If you change your mind and want to spend time together, you know that I am welcome to that idea. I miss talking with you and enjoying eachcothers company. I miss your humor and your wit, but I cannot entertain the idea of a platonic relationship with you and unless you have romantic intent or at least are open to that idea in the future, please let me have space.

Thank you, I hope you are well, Best Wishes.

This is her last chance to say something productive.  This was the ultimatum part I previously mentioned.
I will not continue to ask. ...ultimatum continued...
I can not hang around waiting to be your second choice or backup plan.   ...ultimatum continued...
unless you have romantic intents, please refrain from reaching out to me  ...ultimatum continued... Also, are you in it for the intensely passionate romance, I get it - I've been there, and it makes it that much more difficult to leave, as it is very intoxicating.
Please either mail my remaining belongings or drop them off at my work.  with this statement, you already know about the status of your relationship even though you don't want it to end, you have already said it here in a less direct way.
i cannot work on a one sided relationship.  ...more ultimatum...
I cannot entertain the idea of a platonic relationship with you and unless you have romantic intent or at least are open to that idea in the future ...more ultimatums...  You want romance and commitment to it, or nothing at all.

The past is a clear indication of the future. While you may understand the mechanisms of BPD YOU cant reverse it. The dramas and issues are symptoms of the disorder. Fixing individual symptoms does not change the process. Fresh new versions of these symptoms will simply replace them.

BPD thinking is a fundamental way someone process their thoughts, sometimes they have toxic presentations, sometimes not, but the process is the same and presentation is often a reflection of whether their immediate needs are being met.

The more you know about BPD then the more the "good" presentations become tarnished as the authenticity and ulterior motives start to be questioned. So the highs become less of a recompense, your praise in response becomes less this then triggers invalidation, leading to escalation.

You have a son who is also a pinball in this relationship game, be careful you are responsible for the influences he is exposed to, you cant have this time over again.

Having you within reach, but at arms length, is validating, and also fending off abandonment issues, a classic BPD symptom which is not normally present in CPTSD.

Also be wary of CPTSD diagnosis as pwBPD will often prefer this diagnosis and will prevent evidence to therapists to guide it this way, as this implies being victim. Endless imagined victimhood is a BPD presentation.

Bottom line is all will not be as it seems to be, and the past is not over with a new fresh beginning in the offering. Can you live with a rinse repeat?

You said, I have always wanted to fix things  You cannot fix her, you can only work on yourself, reflect where it went wrong and fix whatever you find...

WaveRider said, Fixing individual symptoms does not change the process  Only she can fix the individual symptoms, likewise, you can only fix things that you are in control of, and that is you.

Side note to waverider, thanks for that insight, my wife and I are fixing the more apparent symptoms, right now...  I need to be very wary of this going forward in my own journey with my uBPDw who is improving for now.  As I am in 'uncharted' territory, I need all the insight I can to navigate this minefield.

Saving the more important points for last.  Waverider is correct about your son, while you are a victim, you son is too if you keep him in the pinball relationship game.  Is the rinse and repeat worth it for him?  It might be for you, but you are opening up a whole set of potential mental health issues for him if this is not done with the utmost care.  Since there is no biological connection with your son, your foregone conclusion of separation carries less moral consequences.  However, you don't mention if she is pregnant with your child, or a rebound guy's child, or did she ultimately terminated the pregnancy -- if it is still on the way, and it is yours, this complicates things so much more... 

[OKrunch]

Satly,

The pregnancy was from me, from July. She went to the termination appointment, and followed through.

I agree, i cannot fix anything outside my locus of control. When i refer to fixing things, im referring to us both going to individual and couples therapy. Communicating, etc.

Yes, i obviously do not want my son caught up in this "pinball" situation as you mentioned.
Im working on attachment issues and codependency with my therapist.

Her and I had a pretty huge blowout fight today. The first real fight since i got kicked out. She is still pretty angry about the way i worded my boundary message. I did blow some things out of proportion. My therapist said this is due to the fact that ive had all this bottled up for the last two months while we were barely communicating.

As far as the ultimatum tone, its hard, i have to FORCE myself to try and be cold. to TEAR myself away from how i want to act with her, which is loving and supporting. But that's not a two way street right now, so i cannot put myself out there to be hurt.

I do feel bad i used the term "push and pull" as she had been pretty clear about why she had said no to hanging out. She was trying to protect her feelings too. My bitterness caused me to only think about my own feelings.

We both expressed regret for fighting today, and we have both said we need to not communicate and do our own healing.
It hurts. I do and always have want to be there to hear what she's going through, help her rationalize it, I want to help the woman i love through a dark journey in her life. Yet the volatility of the whole situation prevents this.

I have tried talking to other women, it turns to ash in my mouth. I compare them to her. Its unhealthy. But loneliness is a hell of a drug.

[waverider]

Just a quick question, are you trying to project your need to say we are done, onto her, so that she makes the final call not you, that way you can walk away knowing you have done everything you can, and not walked away from a problem you failed to fix?

Lots of ultimatums, which realistically you know wont be met, is often a method of doing this. A need to, but reluctance to, cut the cord?

[OKrunch]

Honestly, just me trying to control my responses to her.
Like quitting an addictive habit, im trying to force myself to kick the habit that is this relationship .

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

Keep working on therapy for yourself.

I am fairly sure you know the answer to your quandary, but are unwilling to tackle it any more than you already have.  It sucks, I was there, and still am there even though there has been some recent progress on the issue -- I am hoping the for the best, but preparing for the worst.

[OKrunch]

Yesterday wore me out. really huge fight, over so many stupid things.

I'm just spent on this whole thing. Focusing on myself, my living situation and mostly my lad.

The Great Magnet will provide, so long as I am working the forge.

[Rev]

Hey OKrunch - what a great thread. I brings me back to the dynamics I experienced. Ultimately, I had to leave because she was abusive and bankrupting us.

For what its worth here are my answers to your questions:

1. Whats up with the constant Maybe's? she did this a bit during 2021 also, but i had assumed this was because of rebound guy. People with mood disordered live is a disordered way. Pretty much everything happens in the moment. pwBPD live in a world of feelings based facts. The "maybe" likely comes out of emotional dysregulation and turbulence in the moment - which causes fear - and then a feeling of "I hate you - don't leave me" (also the title of a good book) - AND - so out of fear comes a "maybe".

2.  I am working with MY therapist to figure out why i cannot let go of this. But man its hard. Why do i love someone who hurts me? when she is not dysregulated she is the most caring, kind, driven and intelligent woman ever.  How is that going?  My T and coach got me to focus on where my limits were - as in what was my bottom line and then to find the fortitude to stick to it, even if I wasn't feeling it emotionally in the moment if I was having a down day. From there, I have come up with the mantra that to answer the question you are asking (which we are all asking ourselves here) you need to give your body time to catch up to your mind. There's a great book out there on adult relationships called "Attached".  Highly recommended.

3. Since we BEGAN to have an understanding of her trauma, needs and triggers, i really feel like we can overcome this. But i may just be hopeful. Hard for me to answer this, but my thoughts are that until she remains regulated for a significant amount of time then this is just temporary - see your next question.

4. The cyclical nature and rerepeated patterns of the BPD fascinate me, has anyone else seen these types of consistent patterns?  Yes - this is typical. Often pwBPD will dysregulate close to family holidays as well.

As far as your text, I agree that there is an implicit ultimatum which rarely works well - communication strategy needs to be about minimizing emotional escalation and giving your partner to literally calm down.  Think of this as not giving a child who over tired and crank more candy rather than putting on soothing music and giving them some space in a comfortable spot for them with some coloring books or lego to play with.

We have an expression here :  Don't J.A.D.E.  

Don't  JUSTIFY
Don''t  ARGUE
Don't  DEFEND
Don't   EXPLAIN.

So, if you were to rewrite your text with only factual information, leaving any of your own emotions out of your words, leaving out any expectations you might have, etc, and do that in six sentences or less, what might you write.

Thanks for this.

Again,

Great thread.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Rev- Thanks for the kind words. I already have a copy of "attached" (So does She) and its pretty amazing. Im not done with it yet. Ill look into the other you mention.

To answer your question, if i re-wrote my message (already sent it to her, so cat's out of the bag, but here goes)

"Since our separation, we have had a pretty open line of communication. While some of that has been pleasant, I must ask for more space. If you change your mind about spending time together, let me know, otherwise I'd appreciate the distance. Reaching out about important financial stuff is fine, as those things need to be taken care of. As far as the belongings of mine you have, you can mail them or drop them off here, whatever works. Thanks"

I couldn't get to sleep last night, my emotional chemicals were running rampant, which caused me to sleep in this morning.
I missed 2 calls from her at 7am, and a message about 45 min later saying

"I didn't mean to call. I was calling my daughter to make sure she got up for the bus and hit your name on accident. There were so many calls from yesterday it was hard not to hit it by accident (eye rolling emoji)"

I said, "Ok i understand."

Who uses call history to make a new call?
And why call twice?
*visible confusion*

[Rev]

Rev- Thanks for the kind words. I already have a copy of "attached" (So does She) and its pretty amazing. Im not done with it yet. Ill look into the other you mention.

"Since our separation, we have had a pretty open line of communication. While some of that has been pleasant, I must ask for more space. If you change your mind about spending time together, let me know, otherwise I'd appreciate the distance. Reaching out about important financial stuff is fine, as those things need to be taken care of. As far as the belongings of mine you have, you can mail them or drop them off here, whatever works. Thanks"



I said, "Ok i understand."

Who uses call history to make a new call?
And why call twice?
*visible confusion*

OUTSTANDING responses ... Don't worry about the earlier response. There's no cumulative effect. The good things you don't count, BUT, the "mistakes" you will make won't add up either. Once you get to that place of understanding, and you look at her differently,  you can make space to grieve the loss for you and your son.

Why call twice?  ... Rhetorical question, right?

That happened all the time with me.

Hang in there. Sounds like you are on the right path.

Rev.

[OKrunch]

the phone call thing just kinda cracks me up honestly.

Like, its obvious she didnt call on accident. She called twice, and She got lucky i didnt answer because she obviously regretted calling. So when i asked about it, it get turned around to make me look needy.

Lol's

[OKrunch]

Ive got to find more ways to keep busy during work. I have so much down time here and it leaves me soo much time to ruminate.

The thought that the fight yesterday means were never going to have a pleasant conversation again is kinda freaking me out.

Logic and History would tell me otherwise, as ive been told more than once in the past things like "I hate you" "ill never speak to you again" "I wish we never met" etc.
Because naturally everything is my fault.

Amazing how the addicted brain can rationalize anything and create fear out of nothing.

[Rev]

Ah... the ruminations.

In the first month I put almost 5000k kms (3500 miles) on my car driving in the middle of day and middle of the night. Thank God I wasn't working, and I was couch surfing at a really good friend of mine with his family.  I did most of the cooking for them because that kept me busy.

Eventually, I stopped ruminating about her - which was my de-tox - and started ruminating about what I wanted for myself.   And eventually, I just stopped ruminating (although I still think about her - not even remotely possible to forget what I lived) and I am, after 3 years, truly living my best life ever.

So - as much as it sucks right now, you are on the right path.

And yes - the phone calls ---- a sense of humor is a great tool. The way I see it, the more sarcastic the better.

Hang in there.

Rev

[OKrunch]

i F**kn miss her and want to go home, i miss my dogs. I miss hearing our kids laugh together.

[SaltyDawg]

I feel your pain.  I can't imagine going what you are going through.

Try to find comfort in the knowledge of what others have said, it will get better, even though you feel that you've reached rock bottom.

When you've reached rock bottom, there's only one way to go, and that's up!

[OKrunch]

My mind is like a pendulum, swinging between "Think of how many times she has thrown you and your son away. Nobody that ever respected you could rip your entire life away and not look back. Twice." and "She is sick, this isnt her fault. Its her childhood trauma, we were getting better at communicating. I wasn't HEARING her needs i was only listening to her problems, Ill never meet anyone as close to her that is my soul match. If only you had listened when she needed you"

Then its the kids, the dogs, the house, the vacations, the holidays. All the times things were amazing, and we were building a future.
Im either Irate or i am severely depressed and self critical.

whats more, is ive done this before, and last time i felt the same way i do now at 9 months separated just before we started getting back together.

I know i must walk my own road, and not doing NC correctly has not helped me. Its damn near impossible. Anything as simple as a text about finances and i try to find a way to turn the conversation friendly or intimate.

I do believe she loves me deep down, its herself she doesnt love. I am the only real relationship shes had. Her other long term one was abusive, and involved drugs (shes 9 years clean). Its just the Splitting. I see it plain as day, even with old conversations from our first breakup. When shes in a good mood, she can't help but show care, even if its subtle, but she goes off like a short fused M80 at the slightest provocation if shes already upset or depressed about something else.

Ive told her id never abandon her, ill always be where she pushed me away to. Ive told her i will not chase (even though ive failed at that before), and ive had good, long runs of NC, but one message from her sends me back to square one, missing, loving  her and trying to fix our relationship.

My scientific, rational mind is failing me here. It cant make sense of what she does and thinks, and it cant defeat my emotions.

I feel trapped in a house of mirrors. 

[OKrunch]

While i know full well i cannot change her, help her fix anything, or make her see what i see...

I know I can be the supporting, loving, understanding, patient PARTNER she needs.

Keyword there: Partner. Not anything more, or less. 

[OKrunch]

I suck at this game. Caved on no contact AGAIN today. Nothing huge, just told her i was free this weekend, and that i hoped work went well. No reply, unsurprisingly.

I have changed her name in my phone as a last resort reminder for me to NOT FREAKIN TEXT HER.

Feeling very weak right now.

[kells76]

I suck at this game. Caved on no contact AGAIN today. Nothing huge, just told her i was free this weekend, and that i hoped work went well. No reply, unsurprisingly.

I have changed her name in my phone as a last resort reminder for me to NOT FREAKIN TEXT HER.

Feeling very weak right now.

Hey OKrunch, that sounds like something a lot of members have gone through -- one way of describing it might be a "relapse". Relapses can be a normal part of the nonlinear "recovery" process. Maybe it's highlighting for you that you're working through the disconnect between what you intellectually want and what you emotionally want?

If I'm tracking with you, you are ready to be done with the relationship and detach. Is that close?

If so, I'd be happy to transfer your thread to our Detaching and Learning... board -- lots of good, supportive discussion there about reducing contact with a former relationship partner.

What do you think?

[OKrunch]

Kells76. Honestly. No. I'm not.

She's in therapy and seems to be having some improvement from what I can tell from a distance.
Furthermore, I knew she had mental health issues throughout our whole relationship, including reconciling the first time, and then getting engaged.
She is pretty high functioning. Very independent and self reliant. driven and professional.
However her trauma past is pretty grueling also. She suffers from nightmares, poor sleep patterns, anxiety and so on.
The BPD/CPTSD tendencies can certainly be strong when she "spirals" as she puts it.
These "Spirals" are usually short episodes, an hour or two, but they wipe her out for the day. She often sleeps after them.
Then there are the "long episodes" as i have come to call them. I have not ever discussed these with her.
They are outlined pretty well in my original post, but she seems to suffer particularly more from anxiety and depression from like, Early Sept through like, April/May. I have been discarded twice during this same time.
I have also been with her during this time of the year, twice.
During our first year together I really didn't notice it. We met in October, but she was stressed around the holidays from work and through the winter. I was just getting to really know her then. Then we moved in together during the start of Covid. I chalked all the stress and anxiety up to that our first year together. Unprecedented times right?
Our first vacation together in June of that year and through the rest of the summer was great.
Her grandmother who basically raised her, passed away in Sept of 2020. Shortly thereafter we broke up the first time. So again, I wasn't able to see the pattern yet. That was also a pretty unprecedented event.
Then I found out about the Rebound fellow.
this killed me, and I didn't talk to her for months (end of 202 into beginning of 2021).
Around February we began chatting, and it was a back and forth thing, with us chatting or even flirting, and then she would get angry and back off because she was with someone. I always told her I "didn't see him as a threat". I could tell it was a temporary thing. This is when i began really figuring our the possibility of BPD.
Her Devalue/Discard/Dumping whatever you want to call it, happened a bit earlier in the year than seems to be her pattern.

During the times when she isn't having an episode or a "Spiral", she is too damn wonderful for me to forget about and move on from right now. I did not idlily ask her to marry me. I've been divorced once and it was terrible. I swore off ever getting married again. Knowing her changed that. Knowing her daughter changed that. Seeing how our kids were together changed that.


I love her way too much, at least now. Maybe with distance that might change, but it didn't in 9 months of separation before.

That being said, I am also not going back to the same relationship.
We both have things to work on and improve before we can really do any forward movement.
I'm just afraid she will get into another relationship out of loneliness.
However if we do ever discuss reconciliation again, I will have some boundaries.
We cannot live together for a while. like, at least a year, or two.
If we ever do, we cannot live in a situation where her having an episode can render me homeless and send my kid off to be with his mother all the time.
There will be therapy, single and couples. Guidelines and coping mechanisms. Agreements on the taking of space within the house, about not yelling (this is my vice honestly), etc.
Lastly, I do fully understand the possibilities, ramifications and responsibilities that would come with a 2nd reconciliation.
Which is why, despite how much i know i want her back, it would have to be a carefully planned thing, and I understand how much of a likelyhood of failure there is there. 

When i messaged her last night she replied with "You had said we should only talk if its regarding important matters, and I agree. I have not blocked you, but I'm trying not to engage. I'm sorry. I hope you have a good night."

Today i messaged again after her saying that, which i mention in my previous post.

I try to stay focused on the issues i need to deal with immediately, namely my living situation. Its too damn hard to keep everything out of my head. i overthink, then i tailspin and end up reaching out.

I was doing SO MUCH better than this in Oct and Early Nov, before she reached out and we had to discuss the whole pregnancy thing.

No contact works to give her the time to calm. Ive seen it before.
it makes me act less emotionally also

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   It sounds like you are having a really rough time with this.

   Might I suggest to see your Therapist, and work out these emotions that you are having.

SD

[Rev]

OKrunch,

   It sounds like you are having a really rough time with this.

   Might I suggest to see your Therapist, and work out these emotions that you are having.

SD

Good observation.

If it's okay I'd like to point out that much of whatbIm reading here seems to have the dynamic of you trying to adapt to her needs and her patterns - which is of course necessary if you want to.gave a relationship.

And I haven't heard yet what you need from her for you? What would it mean for you to share with us the following:


If you hand a magic wand - how would she treat you in this relationship and what needs or yours would now be met?

What do you think?

Rev

[OKrunch]

thanks for the concern folks, I am seeing my therapist, in fact we increased it to 2x per week for the time being.

If i had a magic wand and she treated me how I need to be treated it would look like this.

Direct communication regarding household things, not passive aggression

Her acknowledging and apologizing for the difficulty caused by having me need to move out immediately at her whim as opposed to the fact that I was on the lease and could have legally stayed, how much of a burden this has put on me and my son. Twice, simply to satisfy her impulsive need for isolation when in an episode.

Open, civil, and non-confrontational communication, mediated if need be, to establish a relationship baseline of communication methods.

An understanding that we both have different attachment styles, and love languages, and knowing what those things mean for each others needs.

No double standards (If she yells, its due to a trigger and is thereby forgivable, if I do it I AM the trigger and that = BADMAN)

regular, consistent therapy both couples and individual.

Lastly, for her to understand that I am not here to do anything but love and support her, and that if sometimes that becomes a lot for me to handle, all i need is a day's worth of time out. I will wake the next day the same as I ever was.

for her to believe and know with ever fiber of her being that I am not going to abandon her, and that my love is quite genuine.
As opposed to what her mind thinks is the norm.

[OKrunch]

And yes, Salty, the last few days have been particularly hard.
This is the result of the push pull. She's pulling away, and it sucks.

The Mountain does not chase The Wind.

I have been perusing, and trying to have romantic conversations disguised as platonic ones.
I need to go back to what I know works, and that is Time and Space.

These responses are born of fear, that she will meet someone and begin dating.
Reminders:

1.) I have zero control over any of this, beyond my own response or lackthereof.
2.) I have seen in the past that stepping away works, and yet I still doubt and fear it.
3.) I have no control over if she meets someone, and what transpires if she does.
4.) neediness is not attractive.
5.) Inability to give space is not attractive.
6.) SHE walked away from this (twice), she needs to be the one to walk back.
7.) I am attractive, accomplished and desirable. This will not be the thing that kills me.
8.) I know i did the best I could at the time, and Im learning through therapy to be better. For myself, for my son. Potentially for her, or whomever I am lucky enough to love next.

Guard is back up, I WILL NOT reach out again (because this is what I have seen work)
letting time, space, and the end of her "episode" work themselves out naturally.