Always Maybe - Patterns and Cycles?

[OKrunch]

Salty,

She has one friend she hangs out with. One.

It wasn't a supportive girlfriend buddy.

I'm doing alright, but I'm 99.99% sure that the guest was what I think it was.

I'm a bit shell shocked, but I'm just going to keep this info under my collar and keep moving forward

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   Talk to your T, sort out your feelings, and move forward.

   Make sure you do a lot of 'self-care' and take care of yourself.

   I strongly suggest making a list of pros / cons on this relationship.  Also, make a list of questions for your T, so it goes a lot faster and you can cover more ground the next time you see your T.

   I am assuming that she did not tell you she was exclusive, yet with you, and I know that hurts if what you say is true.  Does she live in an apartment building, neighborhood, or rural location.  If it is the first two, it could be that the car was parked there temporarily and visiting another unit/house, if rural, that would be more impactful.

   Take care.

[OKrunch]

She has not told me she's exclusive, the closest to that was me telling her I fear losing her to someone else, early in the breakup.

I'm already planning my next T sessions contents.

The house is quite rural. We lived out in the woods in a small neighborhood.

Will update after T session on Wednesday.

[SaltyDawg]

Okay, look forward to your update then.

Until then, take care.

[OKrunch]

I need to step back and see if she follows. I'm way too anxious over this whole situation. She lied to me twice about this person. I think I just need to have a conversation with her and ask him if she seen somebody else and give her an opportunity to actually tell me about this. I don't want to play second fiddle and I'm not.  going to be strung along

[Outdorenthusiast]

I need to step back and see if she follows. I'm way too anxious over this whole situation. She lied to me twice about this person. I think I just need to have a conversation with her and ask him if she seen somebody else and give her an opportunity to actually tell me about this. I don't want to play second fiddle and I'm not.  going to be strung along

Be careful - Confrontation will get a negative response - so be smart in your approach.  An ultimatum will trigger an abandonment fear, and an accusation will paint you as an aggressive persecutor and she the victim.  Both will blow up. 

Use “I” statements. Eg;  “I value having an exclusive relationship with someone, I know for myself this is what I need to feel happy and secure.  I don’t know how you feel…”

I would recommend to stay away from the comments of “Someone saw a car parked at your house…” as this will come off as creepy/stalking or invasion of privacy.  It seems she never indicated you would be exclusive - so this is likely her right, and her house.  This should be more about you and what you feel and want to be happy.  If she feels different, then as painful as it will feel - your paths should be separate to keep you happy and follow your core values.  You only can control your own actions not hers.

Also - if she reacts negatively, acknowledge and validate her feelings - don’t try to change them.  It is ok to validate her feelings and still speak your truth. Use the S.E.T. technique as the emotions are bound to run high.

Good luck

[OKrunch]

I plan to just sit in the info for a few days. I need to digest all of this.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

Definitely do not do anything until you have talked to your T.

Outdoorenthusiast makes some excellent points on this.  You don't want to appear as though you are stalking, and using the "I" pronouns & SET method are excellent suggestions on this.

Definitely do not confront or use criticism as that builds resentment and contempt which are relationship killers.

If there is 'another man' beyond a reasonable doubt don't be second fiddle, you deserve better than that.  I also know it will hurt, make a plan now, on how to do some major self care [treat yourself to a nice weekend trip, to get away from it all].

I am in my 2nd dog and pony show for borderline women, my previous relationship was with a uBPD/NPDexgf, and she was 'playing the field' so to speak.  I left, only to fall into the arms of a uBPD person who would eventually become my wife 22 years ago.  If you do decide to go the route I did, make sure you don't fall into the same/similar situation I did.  Learn the signs of the borderline, to avoid being entrapped again.  Borderlines are attracted to the codependent enabler types like moths to a flame, or is it vice versa, whatever it is, be on the lookout.

Take care, and I look forward to your update on Wednesday evening.

[OKrunch]

I moved my T appointment to 330 est today.

[SaltyDawg]

How did it go?

[OKrunch]

Therapy session went pretty good. Although it was a very anger-inducing session for me. I guess I needed to process frustration.

We have had no discussion about being exclusive. I am frustrated because there are several situations where she could have told me that she was seeing someone else but I can see that she's definitely scared to do that. I have not directly asked, and that's a question I would only ask in a face-to-face conversation.
My therapist asked me some hard questions like would I ever be able to truly trust her.
She also asked if this is a cycle I'm willing to rent and repeat through a life.
I said that I would be able to trust her, we have had very good trust in the past. She is not a cheater, however she is quick to get into new relationships after breakups.
I said that this is not a cycle I'm willing to repeat. If things cannot be figured out this time around, I have to be done.

After my therapy session yesterday. And a day where I only responded to her text, I was not the one to reach out. She called me at about 6:00 and offered for me to come over for dinner. I did so, we had a nice chat and a meal. Again, we were romantically intimate but did not actually have sex. The difference being this time, I really felt a lot of romantic energy from her in the way that she was interacting with me last night. Conversely, when she was talking about something and wanted to bring something up on her phone she immediately was like oh let's see if I can put this on the tv. And then couldn't, so she very much switched her entire body position so her phone was facing back side to me. She did not want me to see her phone.

Which brings me to the topic of another guy. I'm pretty certain at this point that that is definitely the case. Like 99%.
She mentioned last night that she's so much enjoys having me to talk to. This seems to harken back to comments she has made about her finding other guys boring in comparison to me. This was also the case during our first breakup.

So it basically seems like to me that she goes into a depressive episode and disassociates me, painting me black. She goes through a period where she does not want to be with me, and then eventually snaps and breaks up with me and kicks me out. This is the pattern that has happened twice. Once she begins to come out of her disassociative period, she starts to remember all the reasons that she loves me. Both times it seems as though she realized this this after starting to date someone else. This time around she is not gone public with the new relationship so she's a bit safer in that regard. Then she gets to a point where she starts to have feelings for me
And regretting the breakup. I have a fair expectation, although I'm not banking on this, that yet again I'm going to be the one she ends up wanting to be with. The difference this time is therapy, we are both doing it, and it's the only real hope that we have to make sure that this is the end of the cycle if we get back together again.

All that being said, my game plan is certainly changed. Her and I have plans to hang out this coming weekend. We have not solidified a date and time yet. I am pulling back on how often I'm reaching out to her. I'm only responding when she reaches out to me. That is something I have been doing before and I got sloppy about it. If she flakes on our plans this weekend and goes out of communication, I'm backing off entirely. This will be a very decisive few days for our situation. Depending on how things go, I plan on asking her if she's seeing somebody else. I would probably do that on Monday or tuesday.
I just can't handle the idea of being a competitive suitor vying for her attention.
I will not be a backup plan.

So, that is my current status and plan.

[SaltyDawg]

"Therapy session went pretty good. Although it was a very anger-inducing session for me. I guess I needed to process frustration."
In the context of this scenario, the emotion of "anger" is good thing.  You need to process what is happening to you which makes you angry, and grow from it.  Channel your anger into construction, not destruction.

"My therapist asked me some hard questions like would I ever be able to truly trust her."
This is a legitimate question.  I know you have already done a lot of soul searching on this one, and you will likely have to do a lot more soul searching on it.

"She also asked if this is a cycle I'm willing to rent and repeat through a life."
This is the million dollar question.  I feel as though you are going through a variation of the cycle I mentioned a few posts back.  I know somebody who has been through +/- 35-40 of these cycles, it doesn't get any easier.  Think long and hard, with a lot of soul searching and prayer, if you aren't able to break this cycle if you want to rinse and repeat it again?

"I said that I would be able to trust her, we have had very good trust in the past. She is not a cheater, however she is quick to get into new relationships after breakups."
That is a big to me.  Proceed with utmost caution, keep an eye out for .

I said that this is not a cycle I'm willing to repeat. If things cannot be figured out this time around, I have to be done.
That is what you are saying 'now'; ask your T, at your next session, to 'b**** slap' some sense into you the next time it happens.  Watching the person with 35-40 of these cycles, it is like watching a train wreck over and over and over again - like groundhog day, the movie, or the Disney movie spin off on Christmas of that theme.

"I did so, we had a nice chat and a meal. Again, we were romantically intimate but did not actually have sex. The difference being this time, I really felt a lot of romantic energy from her in the way that she was interacting with me last night."
Borderline feelings are quite intense, it's all or nothing, so you are being painted white, for the moment.  If I were you, (my personal opinion is likely different from yours) express your desire to be exclusive if she is taking you to bed with her, as you don't want to be second-fiddle.

"Conversely, when she was talking about something and wanted to bring something up on her phone she immediately was like oh let's see if I can put this on the tv. And then couldn't, so she very much switched her entire body position so her phone was facing back side to me. She did not want me to see her phone." 
, but if you want a relationship with her, you need to ignore the with the DBT skill 'radical acceptance,' and only deal with the which are deal breakers for you.

Regarding the "other guy".  Just be better than him if you want a relationship with her.  Before you have intimate relations with her again, say something along the lines of "I really want to please you, and I want to be pleased too.  I would love to know when you plan on sharing our relationship with your friends, again, as I would love to be part of your life."  [implying that you want exclusivity and be part of her world]

Regarding weekend plans.  Don't be too passive [this sounds like your plan], but don't be too aggressive either.  I would suggest, if you haven't heard anything by Thursday on it, casually ask her in a text "I would love to spend time with you this weekend, do you have a time in mind so I can adjust my plans accordingly]".  Be vague on the other plans, hint that you may have other plans [even if you don't, or if it is just watching TV], it will make her wonder, and by nature you will become more appealing to her.

"This will be a very decisive few days for our situation."
Agreed.


"I plan on asking her if she's seeing somebody else. I would probably do that on Monday or tuesday."
This is a bit more critical, being critical is a big turn-off.  Do it more subtly.  If you get a negative response of her letting others know that you have reconnected, then gently make the following statement along the lines of "[insert endearing pet name here like 'sweetheart'], I feel as though I am not that important enough to you to let your friends know about us, again, yet since we are in bed together, I would love to have an exclusive relationship with you.  What do you think about that?"

If she answers that question in the negative, then escalate a little more.

"I would like to know why?"

Let her answer, if you don't like her answer, then...

"I feel as though we are not exclusive, and that is not okay with me".  Put your clothes back on.  Gently apologize "I am sorry, I feel that this is not the kind of relationship I want with you."  Kiss [peck] and hug her goodbye and leave.  I know this has push-pull overtones, and you shouldn't use it under normal circumstances; however, your circumstance isn't normal.

Don't be confrontational, do phrase it in a way that is palatable, so you get your message across without being critical.  It takes practice, it is something new to me as well.  I used to be a lot more direct and confrontational, and that doesn't work.

"I just can't handle the idea of being a competitive suitor vying for her attention.
I will not be a backup plan."
Don't be her backup plan, but don't be confrontational either.

Good luck, and take care.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   I haven't heard anything from you for a few days.  Just checking in to see how things are going and if you are okay?

SD

[OKrunch]

Thanks for checking in salty,



I had another good therapy session on Wednesday and kind of formulated a game plan with my therapist.  That therapy session was also pretty instrumental in reminding me about radical acceptance, controlling my anxious obsessive thought patterns and reminding me that I've made a lot of progress, so has she, and lastly so have we both.



Although she never actually confirmed date and time for any plans that I was trying to make for the weekend, we ended up spending the entire weekend together.

I was concerned she was splitting her time between me and some other person.

Friday night I did not expect to see her. I had been trying to make plans to hang out on Saturday and or Sunday.  She ended up asking me to come over and hang out Friday evening after she got home from dropping her daughter off at her daughter's father's house.  Friday was a good hangout, and we actually ended up having a pretty good conversation where I was able to tell her that exclusivity was a goal that I had.  I did not even have to ask if she was seeing someone else period she told me that she wasn't because she could tell I was concerned about it.  She started falling asleep on the couch Friday night so I roused her and told her to head up to bed.  I took care of the dogs, locked the door and headed back to my camper. I had to work on Saturday, and after I got out of work, she again (without me asking) asked me to come over. Saturday was a lot more intimate. I did not sleep there that night either. Lastly, yesterday, I went out to breakfast with my best friend then hung out with him during the day. To may surprise, around dinner time, She asked me to come over again. We went out to dinner last night, and it was quite nice, then went back and curled up together for a movie.  Similar to Friday, I took care of the dogs locked the door and headed out after she fell asleep on the couch and she went up to bed.



Some takeaways:

the weekend was phenomenal. there is nothing to be doubted about that.

When I was there on Friday evening she was going on about how she had rearranged the house and what not after I had moved out.  She casually made a comment about the fact that she really likes the fact that she has the whole upstairs now to herself.  I didn't really have a response, and she realized what she had said and apologized. i then told her I preferred it when it was all four of us together but I understood what she meant by saying she had more space.  So there are definitely aspects about not living together that she is still enjoying.



On Friday when we were discussing things, I mentioned that I did not like the idea that I was kind of hidden away from her life.  She basically confirmed that she doesn't want anybody in her family or friend Circle seeing that she's interacting with me yet. after two nasty breakups.  That also kind of stung, but I understand she needs to take her time to be comfortable.



Another topic we discussed was not moving too fast, not getting too wrapped up into the relationship. she reiterated that she has a lot of  stuff to work on personally still. I know there are still hang ups about rough periods from our past.

She said something to the effect of  "its time I finally learn to really forgive and FORGET" she emphasized forget.

Holding grudges for any past hurt is something she struggles with.



Overall, this weekend went far better than I could have possibly imagined.

Even in the event that she wasn't completely honest with me about another person having been involved (and i do believe she was honest)  she spent every free moment she had with me this weekend, by her choice not because I asked.



There was reminiscence, there was intimacy, there was constructive discussion, there was laughter and mutual interest.



as an aside, rental costs seem to be dropping, so if I hold out a bit longer I should have no problem finding a home.


I am now shifting some focus to my physical fitness, more reading, less distraction techniques like gaming. Spring will be here before I know it and I want to be in summit hike shape.



Life is good. You are all wonderful.

[SaltyDawg]

You're welcome for the check-in.

From what you have said, it sounds like it is going quite well, and I am happy for you.  I won't comment on the good stuff other than if she saw you all three days over the weekend, spending every free moment with you, I'd say that is pretty exclusive, and the likely-hood of a 'side-dude' is exceptionally small - let those ANTs go it will help with your anxiety.

However, there were a few things that stuck out to me.

That therapy session was also pretty instrumental in reminding me about radical acceptance, controlling my anxious obsessive thought patterns and reminding me that I've made a lot of progress, so has she, and lastly so have we both.
Radical acceptance is a biggie DBT skill - to me it means that there will be one or more setbacks, and you need to accept that this will happen, and in my case, my pwBPD I know is not intentionally doing it, but she is doing it none-the-less.  So I have accepted she will do it; I have already forgiven her for doing it; however, I will still maintain boundaries on it.  However, the consequences of breaking those boundaries should be mindful to your specific situation.

She casually made a comment about the fact that she really likes the fact that she has the whole upstairs now to herself.
Sounds like you may need to make some concessions here to stay in her good graces -- an excellent opportunity to deviate from black/white thinking to shades of grey with a legit compromise.

On Friday when we were discussing things, I mentioned that I did not like the idea that I was kind of hidden away from her life.  She basically confirmed that she doesn't want anybody in her family or friend Circle seeing that she's interacting with me yet. after two nasty breakups.  That also kind of stung, but I understand she needs to take her time to be comfortable.
I am sure that stung.  However, please be mindful, that there is a lot of shame that she needs to process over you and the two prior breakups.  She needs to be comfortable on this issue -- let it emotions process that you are back in her life.  Give her time, at least 3 weeks [from the time you reconnected], but not more than 6 months - you are in that time range now.  Sooner or later, she will recommit to you if things continue to go well.  If it doesn't go well, she can cut you out of her life again -- this also encourages you to be on best behavior to make as many love banks deposits in her accounts as you can.  If it hasn't happened in 6 months, then it can be concerning and needs to be addressed.  However, keep in mind you just reconnected and are picking up the pieces, you will need to rebuild the relationship to the point where she is comfortable enough to share it with others.

she reiterated that she has a lot of  stuff to work on personally still. I know there are still hang ups about rough periods from our past.
This is excellent that she is self-aware.  Be prepared to a lot of work yourself on this, as it takes both partners in a relationship to be 'self-aware' to make it stronger.

She said something to the effect of  "its time I finally learn to really forgive and FORGET" she emphasized forget.
This is a DBT type skill/tool.  I find it easy to 'forgive'; however, it is impossible to 'forget' -- the mind simply doesn't work that way.  However, do not bring up past wrongs/grudges, as that is criticism and that is a relationship killer.  BOTH of you need to do this for each other.

I am now shifting some focus to my physical fitness, more reading, less distraction techniques like gaming. Spring will be here before I know it and I want to be in summit hike shape.
Keep self-care as a priority, it will make you happier, and in turn it will make your relationship better too.

Take care.

[OKrunch]

We've had decent connection of late. She has pulled back a bit after a conversation I had with her on this past Friday.
Turns out I had been right about there being another guy.

We discussed exclusivity, and I told her again that that is something that needs to be on the future horizon.

We've been in touch every day since, and I saw her on Sunday night, but she wasnt terribly receptive and warm, but also not cold and pushing away.

All this week since that conversation I have backed off significantly. I am waiting for her to reach out for any communication.
She has still reached out every day but our conversations have been much less frequent or lengthy.

I was not angry or rude when I told her about feeling like a 2nd option or a backup. She only invites me over late at night or on weekends. She is still hiding me.
I told her that I would EVENTUALLY need some honesty, exclusivity and reciprocation of effort in the relationship, but I understand her need for some breathing room right now.

This coming weekend is another where we both do not have out kids, and should present ample time to hang out.
I told her I would like to hang out this weekend, and asked to set a time ahead of time, if she wanted to. She said "I will"

The chase is over, I'm not going to continue to put my hand out to have it ignored or brushed off.
This weekend will be pretty crucial. It will show how much desire she has to take the initiative to make plans and hang out.
Last time I was doubtful, we spent the entire weekend together, So its really hard to say which way things might go this weekend.
If they continue to grow and show more interest from her side, We will tread slowly and work on things.
If not, I am done being the pursuer. She is fully aware of how I feel, where I stand, what my boundaries and desires are.
If hers don't match mine, or aren't growing to do so, I cannot continue to hurt myself by nursing false hope.

I feel much more in control of my emotions, and content with whatever the outcome might be.
Having received half hearted effort and emotion these past few weeks have dampened the fire that was my unyielding need to fix this. I am actively fixing myself, and I know the improvement I've made.

If it is truly meant to be, it will be, but this guy is not waiting in the wings to play second fiddle. No sir.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   Thank you for the update.  

   Be careful.  You are still being hidden and there is another suitor.  You need to come up with a reasonable timeframe for your goals to happen.  Loop your T into this conversation as he/she knows your situation better than I do.

   Do self-care.  Therapy is a big part of this, your mental health to fix yourself.  Also exercise and take time for yourself.

   Make sure that you have a plan, and then stick with it.

   Good luck, and take care.

[Turkish]

If it is truly meant to be, it will be, but this guy is not waiting in the wings to play second fiddle. No sir.

Good for you for realizing your own value.

I'd be wary of borderline magical thinking such as "meant to be." To me, that removes personal power and absolves one of responsibility. That's how I ended up in my story: a text from my then gf after she made it vehemently clear that she didn't want a bf after our first official date. No I didn't ask her... I thought it just a date.

I was  that she contacted me, but then [magical thinking] told myself, "give love a chance!" So I met her for a movie (not a date!) though I was busy with friends.

Five years later with a baby and a toddler, she went out on me with a young football stud.

At the time, my T told me, "typically, these things take a while to die down," Yet she lied to our T and Mr. Young football stud wasn't going to let it go.

Similarly, though I was done, she was still a little affectionate with me though not sexual, but more than a buddy. In retrospect, in realized that she felt a connection despite finding her new One True Love... and she was still living with me and the kids. Worst time of my life even growing up with a mother with BPD.

This site is all about preserving families and relationships, but if I were you, I'd plan a graceful exit with the help of your T and friend support.

[Rev]

Hey Krunch ...

I've been following pretty closely waiting for someone else to weigh in with what Turkish just said because I was wanting to make sure that I was being objective.

Hard as it may be to hear - Turkish is 110% right. You are a kind and understanding person. Offer that to yourself.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Im feeling pretty low today. Keep getting left on read. She got all pissed off about something stupid last night then apologized this morning. Shes lied about dating others. Im done waiting for her to use other people to find herself.
She only texts me to complain about work, her stresses from the dogs/daughter/house.
Im being used as emotional support, and for her to delay paying me what she owes me.

Im really pissed and down right now, but, I. AM. DONE.

Im not texting her again.
I think i am in such pain right now because I know its really time to quit.

I dont want to, but I am not ok with waiting in Limbo.
Im being played with.


 

[Rev]

Im feeling pretty low today. Keep getting left on read. She got all pissed off about something stupid last night then apologized this morning. Shes lied about dating others. Im done waiting for her to use other people to find herself.
She only texts me to complain about work, her stresses from the dogs/daughter/house.
Im being used as emotional support, and for her to delay paying me what she owes me.

Im really pissed and down right now, but, I. AM. DONE.

Im not texting her again.
I think i am in such pain right now because I know its really time to quit.

I dont want to, but I am not ok with waiting in Limbo.
Im being played with.

Hey there Crunch...  that feeling really does suck. It really does hurt. The first month that my relationship ended, and I wanted it to end, I still reacted in pain. I put 3500 miles on my car driving in the middle of the night. It was like I needed to stay busy all the time to numb the pain.

And so hang in there, because the pain eventually wears off. And the pain pales in comparison to a life of waiting like a yo-yo. You will hear stories of people here who went back, time and again, to have it worse. Turkish gave you one. I could give you one - three times I tried to leave, three times it only escalated after I came back. I was such a mess that I needed to couch surf for about six weeks and barely ate.

So staying right now will feel better than losing her. And the pain of this is small compared to what will escalate. Why do I know? Because experience tells me and others that you are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.  This, hard as it is to process because it is painful, is NOT YOUR FAULT.  There is nothing you could have done to make it different, even though on some level she wants you believe that.

What can we do here to support you best through this?  You have put so much of your soul into this thread. How can we help you find rest?

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

With much love,

Rev

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   This sucks.

   I was really hoping for the best for you; however BPD is such a drag.

   My uBPDw, made great progress, only to split greater than all previous splits before that - today, I was really down in the dumps.  She finally agreed to a 50/50 compromise, only to reneg on it, and do 100/0.

   Do some self-care, and talk to your T.

   Take Care.

[OKrunch]

Well things have been shaky for the last few days, after we had a conversation about her seeing other people she kind of backed off. She told me I was moving things along too fast, last night I was feeling some serious stomach anxiety and I messaged her about it and said my Spidey Sense was going off and asked her if everything was okay. She replied this morning by saying "I was sleeping, Maybe it was from your ex wife, you got the wrong one".  So rather than texting back I called her and asked her why she would say something like that. She was obviously irritated and immediately defensive, she referenced a conversation we had a couple days ago about her stressing out about all of her household stuff and the dogs.  I had said " I wish I could do more to help, I wish I was still there to help out everyday"  which apparently she had taken as me basically saying "Well you shouldnt have kicked me out".  Which is not at all what I meant. The conversation this morning turned into an argument, I reminded her that I have been doing nothing for the last month but supporting her during stressful times, helping her out with money and trying to be patient and understanding of what she needs. I explained that I just had the single boundary of wanting to be exclusive and it didn't even need to be immediately it just needed to be on the horizon. She continued to get angry and yell at me and basically told me that she doesn't ever want to be with me again and that we shouldn't have started talking in the first place and we're toxic for each other blah blah blah same old spiel. She blocked me again on everything and we're basically back to square one. During the argument she told me that she had only hung out with that other guy twice and they haven't slept together and I was like I never asked either of those things so I don't know why you're trying to justify it to me. I did end up getting angry and saying some things like the fact that she's stuck in a victim mentality, nothing I say is ever going to be enough.  She got mad when I said that I'm living in a camper because of her. She said that I'm living in a camper because of me. She still blames everything on me. I didn't listen when she wanted to fix things. All of the fights were my fault. She has no accountability.



I told her that if she ever wants to take me off of the back burner and stop holding me at arm's length and being ashamed of talking to me  and being seen with me to give me a call. I'm not reaching out to her, I'm not checking social media I'm not doing any of that crap. I'm feeling very angry and defeated right now, but I'm resolved to keep on, keep smiling and enjoy the upcoming spring.
As much as I wanted this to work, in a few months it wont sting so bad, in a few years it will be a memory.
I'm sure she will cool off, get bored, and call me, but Im pretty damn sure by the time she does ill have gotten off the roller coaster and exited the park.

Time for a quiet weekend with a LOT of looking inward.
Thank you all for your continued support and advice.

I think the thing that hurts the most is knowing that I am the one tearing this away now. Choosing to finally bury the corpse of my relationship is a very difficult task.

[OKrunch]

Copy+ Paste of the message my therapist sent me after i texted her earlier.

"You aren't an idiot. At this point, you have done everything and then some to prove to her that you care about her and want to have a healthy relationship with her. You are not toxic in this situation. Unfortunately, it is she who has the toxic coping skills and that is not your fault. If she refuses to take any sort of accountability and blames you for everything, this is a no win situation and you may be better off emotionally if you go your separate way. You deserve someone who will be a partner and will want you for all that you have to offer and I don't know if she will be able to do that. It is an all around really crappy situation and I'm sorry that things went sideways "

[Turkish]

I told her that if she ever wants to take me off of the back burner

What do you think of what your therapist sent to you? How do you feel about being on the back burner?

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   I feel for you, and know how you feel with her rejecting you on so many levels, sending you virtual hugs    I 'get it'.

   I am in a similar situation emotionally where I am and have been kept at arms length, and as soon as it gets closer than arms length, she splits with or without an accompanying rage for no logical reason.   Even though this is illogical --  I know when she lashes out at me like that, I am the one whom she loves the most.  Borderlines will hurt the ones they love the most, as it is with most moderate to severe mentally challenged individuals no matter if they are very high functioning borderline, or barely functioning in the case of alzheimer's, I get to witness both in my wife and sMother - lucky me [not].

   Our couple's T has seen my wife's emotional volatility while in session for the past two sessions, and even commented on it [without attributing it to being borderline, her words were 'you are not being rational' to my wife in a gentle attempt to draw her back into being rational.

   In addition to the inward soul searching you are going to do this weekend.  Please take some time and do some self-care.  Get out for a brisk walk/hike in the sun, let the elements of nature distract you.  Lose yourself in a good book/movie/tv show that you have always wanted to watch, but didn't have time for while chasing the elusive nature of your heart's desire.  I did that earlier this week when my wife had her longest split yet (lasted two days, versus several hours).

   One thing you may want to look at in your own mental health journey is to look at yourself, and try and figure out why you need to stay with her when she treats you so badly.  I myself am doing that with my wife, and my T strongly feels that I am a codependent with the overwhelming trauma bond that I am experiencing with my uBPDw, and I will be doing a deep dive on probably being codependent for myself in the next two weeks with my individual T.

   If you feel a need to vent, feel free to do so, I am monitoring this thread, both as a support for you where you can learn from my mistakes and I can learn from yours.

   Take care of yourself.

~SaltyDawg

[OKrunch]

This was my last message to her

"Just like you making a joke about the fact that you had me in hidden mode. That was cruel and you know it. The way that you can laugh at My pain says a lot. I told you yesterday on the phone that something you did hurt my feelings and you laughed in my face.

All I have done in the last month is support you and care about you and I have been there for you. I went out of my way to try and make sure that I was doing things that made you feel comfortable. The way you treated me yesterday was cruel vindictive and mean. I love you very much and I care about you very much but I'm not going to be treated that way. I was doing healthy communication to try and establish a good channel for us to really sort through our emotions and talk our entire past out and work together to build something. You were hiding things from me, covering things up and lying to me. And then when you found somebody that you deemed to be better for what you want right now, you found a reason to push me away yet again. Goodbye, no more "I'll always love you" "

[OKrunch]

She has me on block and is in full excommunication mode. I honestly think she got lonely started talking to me while she was still searching for other people found someone and then found a reason to push me away. I won't be surprised if she finds some reason to reach out and start talking again in 2 weeks or 4 weeks or 6 weeks when she gets bored again but I'm just not doing this s*** anymore.

[Pook075]

I'm new to this thread and Krunch, I'm so sorry brother.  I use the phrase 'brother' not in common slang, but because all of us here have been hurt so deeply while trying to be a great person and doing the right things.  None of us deserve the pain we've endured and I feel like it bonds us.  Others have really been here for me on my journey and I am very happy so many have been here for you as well.  Sorry I'm late.

I just read all 5 pages from start to finish, the highs and the lows, so I want to give you a fresh perspective.  Everything you've done has been logical, kind, compassionate, and honorable.  Yet every time I saw you building up hope, I'd grimace just a bit since I knew this was a 5-page thread.  We've all been there- the vicious cycles that put us up in the clouds and then bring us crashing back down to Earth.

Many people here have talked about your pwBPD's cycles, but I want to point out that you're going through those cycles as well and they're not healthy.  I know the goal here has been to rekindle love, I've been separated 5 months now after 24 years of marriage and my goal was the same.  But the more distance between the two of you, the more you're going to find yourself and what matters to you in the world outside of her.  

Don't get me wrong, you've been doing great.  It bothered me though reading this from start to finish that so many times, you'd mention NC as a way of getting her back.  That's not the goal with NC brother, the real goal is to focus 100% on yourself while she focused 100% on herself.  This is about YOU.

If the relationship works out someday, then that's amazing.  But it's obvious that she's not in a place to be exclusive with you, plus open, honest, balanced, etc.  And as bad as we all want that, it can't be forced no matter how hard we try.  Either it happens on her end or it doesn't.  None of this is your fault though and you've put in massive effort in changing yourself...celebrate that!  Celebrate how much you've grown, gained fresh perspective, etc.

One final piece of advice.  She has to get her life together and you'll never, ever, ever be able to help her with that.  Not because you can't, but because a part of her mind won't accept your help in a healthy, positive way.  Everything you do to help will be analyzed, spun around, examined from a thousand different angles, then thrown back in your face.  We all make that mistake wanting to ride in on our white horses and save the day, but we're not noble knights in this story.

Give it time brother and keep posting here to talk out your feelings and emotions- we can all relate and we've walked in your shoes.  I mean, every situation is different yet it all feels so darn familiar, abuse is abuse and we don't deserve it.  Again, this is YOU TIME, take some time to be selfish and figure out what you want outside the relationship.  Do it for you and you alone, not because some book said that it might get her back.

[OKrunch]

After waking up with severe anxiety this morning, and doing some thinking,  I have come to some painful conclusions. She gets panicked and pushes people away.



Looking back on the things that caused both of our breakups, there are definitely things I could have been doing better. I could have been doing more around the house I could have been more attentive to her triggers. I was still learning about trauma and what it meant to be in a relationship with someone that has trauma. So many of the arguments were pointless and seemingly manufactured. The things that I had been doing incorrectly in the relationship are all things that I have improved and worked on. Specifically in regards to our recent contact, I have been attentive patient calm and understanding. Maybe less on the patient portion of things. That's really what blew things up, is I was trying to move things along too fast.  But at the end of the day that was the speed I needed things to be moving at. I was not in the position to be waiting around for her to make a decision between me and some other guy. Her and I have a lot of history, she knows who I am. If I'm not your obvious First Choice then there's no choice to be made at all in my opinion.



In so far is the fight yesterday, I'm actually really angry about it. I had texted her the night before because I had a gut feeling that something was wrong and I was worried about her. Her response the following morning was a rude vindictive left-handed jab involving my ex-wife who she hates. She could have just as easily said no I was fine thank you for your concern, but she had to be mean and Venom tongued instead. Over the past two weeks she has gotten increasingly defensive and distant. As I mentioned earlier I firmly believe that this is because she started talking to somebody else that is new and interesting whereas I am old and she knows what problems there are. During our first break up she did this exact same thing where she dated someone who was very much not her type just to not be alone. Regardless, I'm starting to mind read about what she's doing and why. None of that matters. I didn't do anything wrong, I stood up for what I'm need my boundaries to be so that I don't get hurt worrying about losing her to someone else. I basically told her that if we're going to be dating then we need to at least be moving towards exclusivity, at least need to be laying the dirt work to start a foundation of building something. I wasn't asking for anything to be decided immediately and I wasn't asking for any officiality or labels or to be revealed to the public that she was talking to me. All I wanted was some honesty and transparency in so far as other people were concerned. I honestly think that from the point a week and a half ago that I asked her if she was seeing somebody else, she has backed off because she felt guilty and she knew she was doing something wrong. She was hiding me away from the world, and rather than embrace the fact that she was spending time with me because that's what she wants in her heart or at least that's what I believe, she's more concerned about her image and being in control. I honestly feel like I was being toyed with over the past month just because she was lonely, if some other person hadn't come along I'm sure she would still be warm. I know I'm rambling a lot here. I just need to get all of this out of my head.