Always Maybe - Patterns and Cycles?

[Pook075]

As I mentioned earlier I firmly believe that this is because she started talking to somebody else that is new and interesting whereas I am old and she knows what problems there are. During our first break up she did this exact same thing where she dated someone who was very much not her type just to not be alone.

Maybe consider unpacking this specific feeling with your therapist- it's the key to everything.  With you, there's stuff to deal with and it's easier to just avoid that.  In other words, she still has work to do and is not ready to commit to it.

Ask your therapist what you can contribute to that process and talk it out.  The answer is obvious, you just need to see it and believe it.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[OKrunch]

Maybe consider unpacking this specific feeling with your therapist- it's the key to everything.  With you, there's stuff to deal with and it's easier to just avoid that.  In other words, she still has work to do and is not ready to commit to it.

Ask your therapist what you can contribute to that process and talk it out.  The answer is obvious, you just need to see it and believe it.

This is very interesting, I am sending my T a message about it now.

Care to elaborate?

[Pook075]

This is very interesting, I am sending my T a message about it now.

Care to elaborate?

Sure.  When she's dating you, she has to work on the stuff that's been a problem in the past.  It's hard for her because it means that she has to deal with her own insecurities, her own mistakes.  Unlike you, she can't just "let it go" and live in the moment with you.  The past keeps rearing its ugly head and making her vastly overthink things. 

With someone else, it's a clean slate- there's nothing to think about or deal with.  It's new love, everything's exciting, and she's not being judged (or self-judged) on her past mistakes.  New love is much, much easier for someone with BPD...until reality sets in and the typical cycle shows up.

Again, the question is exactly the same as before.  What can YOU contribute to that process for her?  There's only one correct answer and you already know it, but it feels like you haven't accepted it yet. 

That's the whole journey here for all of us, the moment where everything comes into perspective and the world suddenly makes sense again.

[SaltyDawg]

Pook has some really good stuff to share, that is one direction you can go, and a good one.

I know where your heart is, and I suspect that your heart is probably in so much pain right now, more hugs... 

What I highlighted below in your text to her is being very critical, and that is one of the 4 worst things you can do to your relationship, being critical which brings on contempt which in turn destroys a relationship. 

Best thing for you to do, is let her anger go, you need to use the DBT skill of 'radical acceptance' that she is always going to be that way, she has done it over and over again.  You know it is coming, and if you want a relationship with her, you need to not let it phase you, and forgive her when she does that, and not get defensive, which is another thing that destroys relationships. 

Also use Google and look up 'gottman 4 horsemen of the apocalypse'.

Once you have done that, only then, use SET communication, and tell her that you forgive her.  If you do that, the cycle may come again, and then you will eventually be faced with this scenario sometime in the future.

Here is an analysis on why she shut down towards you based on your last 'text' to her, and the reasoning why:

"Just like you making a joke about the fact that you had me in hidden mode. That was cruel and you know it. The way that you can laugh at My pain says a lot. I told you yesterday on the phone that something you did hurt my feelings and you laughed in my face.
This is being CRITICAL / judgemental

All I have done in the last month is support you and care about you and I have been there for you. I went out of my way to try and make sure that I was doing things that made you feel comfortable.
DEFENSIVENESS

The way you treated me yesterday was cruel vindictive and mean.
CRITICISM / judgemental

I was doing healthy communication to try and establish a good channel for us to really sort through our emotions and talk our entire past out and work together to build something.
DEFENSIVE

You were hiding things from me, covering things up and lying to me.  And then when you found somebody that you deemed to be better for what you want right now, you found a reason to push me away yet again.
CRITICAL / judgemental


In your text, you were being argumentatively judgemental, critical, and defensive in your statement explaining your actions to her.

This is contrary to the Gottman principles...

This is also contrary to the 'do not JADE' that is prevalent on this site, where you did reserve judgement, you were argumentative, you are defensive, and you are explaining -- none of which should be done while a borderline is having an 'episode'.  'They [borderlines] can't handle the truth' when they are having an episode.

She triggered you, you responded in kind, and reactively she shutdown with contempt and NC = stonewalling, all 4 of Gottman's horsemen are present in this dynamic, also all four J.A.D.E. are also present.  While a normal person can handle this, a borderline cannot.

Take care.  Do care for yourself first.  Do talk to your T to figure out what is best for you, and then follow through.

[OKrunch]

Sure.  When she's dating you, she has to work on the stuff that's been a problem in the past.  It's hard for her because it means that she has to deal with her own insecurities, her own mistakes.  Unlike you, she can't just "let it go" and live in the moment with you.  The past keeps rearing its ugly head and making her vastly overthink things. 

With someone else, it's a clean slate- there's nothing to think about or deal with.  It's new love, everything's exciting, and she's not being judged (or self-judged) on her past mistakes.  New love is much, much easier for someone with BPD...until reality sets in and the typical cycle shows up.

Again, the question is exactly the same as before.  What can YOU contribute to that process for her?  There's only one correct answer and you already know it, but it feels like you haven't accepted it yet. 

That's the whole journey here for all of us, the moment where everything comes into perspective and the world suddenly makes sense again.

This makes a lot of sense, thank you Pook. My therapist agreed with this strongly.

Salty - I appreciate your input here, but At this point I have to put my own feelings and needs first. I'm being played with.
I cannot walk on glass any more. She will either miss me, or she won't. I'm done bending over backwards just to get lied to, left on read, and treated like a child.

____________________________________
We had a big fight over the weekend and Monday- then Monday evening / Tuesday we had a calmer conversation.
Below is my most recent message to my therapist.

"Predictably I ended up unblocking her. We had a conversation on Tuesday morning, she gave me a lot of the I need to work on myself and focus on my own stuff type of conversation. She has been having difficulties with her daughter, or so she tells me. I think it speaks volumes that I have to sit here and consider whether or not that is entirely true. I believe it is but at this point I really don't know with anything. We talked a bit about how I was coming on too strong and she felt too pressured. I just reinforced the boundaries I had mentioned about the fact that if we were hanging out and talking I needed it to at least have some sort of a goal down the road despite not having any need for labels or anything official immediately. I have vowed to myself that I am not going to reach out in any way shape or form for at least two weeks. I reached out yesterday and got pretty flaccid responses. She's not being rude but she's being pretty non-responsive and aloof. She tells me that she needs to work on herself and figure out her own stuff but I can't help but think that she's still probably hanging out with other people. So it's like I can't work on a relationship with you but I can work on relationship potentially with other people. I just don't have the time in my day to sit here and worry about this all the time. I know I'm going to stress over it and think about it constantly over the next few weeks but I have resolved it to just leave it alone. If she misses my conversation she will reach out. If she misses my attention she will reach out. I'm going to be very defensive and careful moving forward. And that's even assuming that there is anything on the horizon at all. It could just be dead and gone. I'm feeling very trapped and isolated. Cabin Fever is setting in pretty big time."

[OKrunch]

Sure.  When she's dating you, she has to work on the stuff that's been a problem in the past.  It's hard for her because it means that she has to deal with her own insecurities, her own mistakes.  Unlike you, she can't just "let it go" and live in the moment with you.  The past keeps rearing its ugly head and making her vastly overthink things. 

With someone else, it's a clean slate- there's nothing to think about or deal with.  It's new love, everything's exciting, and she's not being judged (or self-judged) on her past mistakes.  New love is much, much easier for someone with BPD...until reality sets in and the typical cycle shows up.

Again, the question is exactly the same as before.  What can YOU contribute to that process for her?  There's only one correct answer and you already know it, but it feels like you haven't accepted it yet. 

That's the whole journey here for all of us, the moment where everything comes into perspective and the world suddenly makes sense again.

Upon further thought this really sticks home. She constantly refers to "trying to figure out how to let go of resentments"
She holds grudges like they are lifesavers

[SaltyDawg]

Salty - I appreciate your input here, but At this point I have to put my own feelings and needs first. I'm being played with.
I cannot walk on glass any more. She will either miss me, or she won't. I'm done bending over backwards just to get lied to, left on read, and treated like a child.

I agree, that you were being played with from the perspective you have shared with us. 

Based on your text you have shared, it sounds like she wants you to 'listen' to her.  You 'hear' her, but you are NOT 'listening' to her, I will highlight the text below.  You could have communicated the same thing in a much gentler, kinder way.  A way that a borderline or dysfunctional individual would be better equipped to receive.  I strongly suggest you learn the SET method of communication https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0 it is much better received by the borderline or emotionally sensitive individuals.

"Predictably I ended up unblocking her. We had a conversation on Tuesday morning, she gave me a lot of the I need to work on myself and focus on my own stuff type of conversation. She has been having difficulties with her daughter, or so she tells me. I think it speaks volumes that I have to sit here and consider whether or not that is entirely true. I believe it is but at this point I really don't know with anything. We talked a bit about how I was coming on too strong and she felt too pressured. I just reinforced the boundaries I had mentioned about the fact that if we were hanging out and talking I needed it to at least have some sort of a goal down the road despite not having any need for labels or anything official immediately. I have vowed to myself that I am not going to reach out in any way shape or form for at least two weeks. I reached out yesterday and got pretty flaccid responses. She's not being rude but she's being pretty non-responsive and aloof. She tells me that she needs to work on herself and figure out her own stuff but I can't help but think that she's still probably hanging out with other people. So it's like I can't work on a relationship with you but I can work on relationship potentially with other people. I just don't have the time in my day to sit here and worry about this all the time. I know I'm going to stress over it and think about it constantly over the next few weeks but I have resolved it to just leave it alone. If she misses my conversation she will reach out. If she misses my attention she will reach out. I'm going to be very defensive and careful moving forward. And that's even assuming that there is anything on the horizon at all. It could just be dead and gone. I'm feeling very trapped and isolated. Cabin Fever is setting in pretty big time."

She is right, only you can work on yourself.  She is also right, only she can work on herself.  She is sorting through stuff, as you didn't use the SET communication method, you did come on too strong and were too pressuring [for her]. 

She was 'flaccid', she was 'not rude', she was 'being pretty non-responsive and aloof'.  This is all 'normal' kind of behavior for that kind of conversation you had with her.  I do not see any dysfunctional responses from her in this regard. 

You were hurt, and rightfully so.  Both of you guys are correct from your respective perspectives.

I know you want exclusivity, and you were not getting that, and that hurt you.  So, you lashed out at her.  By lashing out at her, you pushed her away into the other suitor's hands, or her willingness to seek out relationships with other people  -- I learned this lesson the 'hard way' myself, about 'lashing out' when I feel that I have been wronged legitimately [or not].  If you want her to be with you, you must pull her towards you, not push her away from you.

You cannot unsay what you have said, and it will take time of the lashing to heal.  If you want it to heal faster, you may want to mend fences with her, I would suggest a simple apology of "I am sorry for lashing out at you."  You are apologizing ONLY for the manner in which you lashed out at her by coming on 'too strong' [this is her 'truth'], do NOT apologize for the content which is your 'truth' - she won't respect you if you do.  You need to treat emotionally sensitive people with 'kid gloves', and the SET method uses this, as do a few other communications methods as well. 

Ask your T about this.  And proceed accordingly.

Also ask your T for feedback on how you handled this, and if she thinks you did 'lash out'.  'Lashing out' is something I know I had a hard time accepting of myself - it took a 'life coach' to tell me this, my individual T couldn't do this, our couple's T couldn't do this either.  I also find that I fall back into the 'lashing out' pattern if I am not mindful.  It is very humbling where I had to accept my contribution to the breakdown of effective communication in my marriage.

Take care of yourself, and do some self-care while you sort through what I have said.

P.S.  I also have two other reflective observations, if you are interested, where you could work on yourself to better handle difficult relationships.  lmk

[Rev]

Hey OKCrunch,

Just caught this - You've really been through a lot of thinking around this one.  It really sounds like you've done your level best to reclaim your ground while respecting your partner.

Repeatedly you've told us that you've been lied to. And time and again you've tried every angle.

I'm hearing in this response that you're looking for some emotional support here - less emphasis on advice or analysis.

Is there something that one of the ambassadors, someone who's really been here a long time could offer you?

I'd be happy to have them look into this thread and have you benefit from that experience. I remember being in a place where I just didn't know which way was up and out of the blue a retired staff person reached out to me and shared their own journey of self compassion.  Every story is different and maybe you're not in the same place I was. And yet, my intuition tells me that I couldn't hurt.

What do you think?

Rev

[OKrunch]

Its hard to accept, but I have to be done.

I have put so much into making this work, with more than one breakup.
I have made improvements and I have offered everything I can muster without hurting myself.

I am aware of my own value. I am a good partner. Am i perfect? Certainly not.
That said, I have been and would be a good husband. I have my own goals to work on, from professional ones to hobbies.

If anything is to work with us, she needs to want it. I told her that during one of our calm conversations.
We need to choose each other, every day. I choose her and she knows that. Right now, for whatever reason, be it complications in life, another person she needs to check the green-ness of the grass with, or just because attraction (emotional) is still low.
She needs to choose me also, and we both know it.

Perhaps she can figure things out with some space. Work is complicated for her right now, and so is parental life.
Ill let her breathe.

It's just very hard, because when we aren't fighting (which has been less frequently) she is the best human on the planet (barring my son of course)
So, not being in touch with her feels like living in a dimmed world.
I miss a great many thing, but I do not miss fighting.

She needs to be able to release resentments. I need to be able to balm my anxiety and not let it make my decisions for me.

Time and space are needed. No matter what.

I'm just tired.

[Rev]

Its hard to accept, but I have to be done.

I have put so much into making this work, with more than one breakup.
I have made improvements and I have offered everything I can muster without hurting myself.

I am aware of my own value. I am a good partner. Am i perfect? Certainly not.
That said, I have been and would be a good husband. I have my own goals to work on, from professional ones to hobbies.

If anything is to work with us, she needs to want it. I told her that during one of our calm conversations.
We need to choose each other, every day. I choose her and she knows that. Right now, for whatever reason, be it complications in life, another person she needs to check the green-ness of the grass with, or just because attraction (emotional) is still low.
She needs to choose me also, and we both know it.

Perhaps she can figure things out with some space. Work is complicated for her right now, and so is parental life.
Ill let her breathe.

It's just very hard, because when we aren't fighting (which has been less frequently) she is the best human on the planet (barring my son of course)
So, not being in touch with her feels like living in a dimmed world.
I miss a great many thing, but I do not miss fighting.

She needs to be able to release resentments. I need to be able to balm my anxiety and not let it make my decisions for me.

Time and space are needed. No matter what.

I'm just tired.

I was too was totally out of gas ... these relationships just sometimes make no sense.

I have watched you try and try to figure it out. You are so right about your anxiety - you've been on high alert throughout this whole thread. I really echo the time and space thing, because with time, you will find that with reclaimed ground there are some things that you won't abide. You've started by naming no longer being lied to, not being treated like a child, and not being put on the back burner.

What a great start.

Reach out any time. I'll be happy to continue affirming your sense of self respect. I know that when people did that for me, it made the world of difference.

In the meantime... high fives, hugs, or both. Your choice.

Hang in there my friend.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[Pook075]

This makes a lot of sense, thank you Pook. My therapist agreed with this strongly.

Salty - I appreciate your input here, but At this point I have to put my own feelings and needs first. I'm being played with.
I cannot walk on glass any more. She will either miss me, or she won't. I'm done bending over backwards just to get lied to, left on read, and treated like a child.

____________________________________
We had a big fight over the weekend and Monday- then Monday evening / Tuesday we had a calmer conversation.
Below is my most recent message to my therapist.

"Predictably I ended up unblocking her. We had a conversation on Tuesday morning, she gave me a lot of the I need to work on myself and focus on my own stuff type of conversation. She has been having difficulties with her daughter, or so she tells me. I think it speaks volumes that I have to sit here and consider whether or not that is entirely true. I believe it is but at this point I really don't know with anything. We talked a bit about how I was coming on too strong and she felt too pressured. I just reinforced the boundaries I had mentioned about the fact that if we were hanging out and talking I needed it to at least have some sort of a goal down the road despite not having any need for labels or anything official immediately. I have vowed to myself that I am not going to reach out in any way shape or form for at least two weeks. I reached out yesterday and got pretty flaccid responses. She's not being rude but she's being pretty non-responsive and aloof. She tells me that she needs to work on herself and figure out her own stuff but I can't help but think that she's still probably hanging out with other people. So it's like I can't work on a relationship with you but I can work on relationship potentially with other people. I just don't have the time in my day to sit here and worry about this all the time. I know I'm going to stress over it and think about it constantly over the next few weeks but I have resolved it to just leave it alone. If she misses my conversation she will reach out. If she misses my attention she will reach out. I'm going to be very defensive and careful moving forward. And that's even assuming that there is anything on the horizon at all. It could just be dead and gone. I'm feeling very trapped and isolated. Cabin Fever is setting in pretty big time."

Good for you, and yes- that was the answer you weren't saying out loud.  There's nothing you can do to "fix her" or "help her figure this out."  Only she can do that.  It stinks and I'm in the exact same boat that you're in, and I absolutely know how impossible this process is. 

What you can do is be true to yourself and figure your own stuff out, find your happiness outside the relationship.  That looks different for all of us, but it starts with accepting that we can't change the past and we need to focus on our own futures.  At this point, everything has to be about you.

I'm rooting for you man- good luck!  Don't be afraid to lean on us as we lean on you for time to time, that's what this community is here for.

[Pook075]

Upon further thought this really sticks home. She constantly refers to "trying to figure out how to let go of resentments"
She holds grudges like they are lifesavers

Yeah, I had to go through the exact same thing.  For instance, my pwBPD blasted me for something that happened 21 years ago...that she started (it involved her throwing dishes/kitchen utensils at me, then smashing plates on the ground.  I got mad and smashed plates too.  We both yelled a lot and it scared our young kids.).  She kept saying that she could never forget instances like that, and at first I felt horrible and apologized over and over again.  But eventually I realized that she's done all kinds of stuff and I forgave her and moved on.  Heck, the whole kitchen thing was her- I had forgot about it because I don't carry grudges. 

Now all that stuff is why she can't be with me anymore and you know what- I'm okay with that.  Not that I wouldn't want to save the marriage, but I fully understand now that this is about how she processes things when she's not stable.  That has nothing at all to do with me, so why should I keep apologizing for anything?  Or cater to her warped ego?

If your spouse can't let things go, that's on her.  You can't punish yourself for that because there's nothing healthy about clinging to the past inside a negative feedback loop.  It's bad enough she's punishing you for that- don't you dare punish yourself for it as well.  Make sense?

[OKrunch]

She's completely backed off, cold and mean again.

I'm going through some of your recent replies, and will type out a good reply to them tomorrow.

I'm feeling very low, used, strung along, lied to and manipulated right now.

She was lonely around Christmas, hang out with me until she found someone else interesting, and now has shelved me yet again.

I don't like this ride anymore. I am getting off.

[Rev]

She's completely backed off, cold and mean again.

I'm going through some of your recent replies, and will type out a good reply to them tomorrow.

I'm feeling very low, used, strung along, lied to and manipulated right now.

She was lonely around Christmas, hang out with me until she found someone else interesting, and now has shelved me yet again.

I don't like this ride anymore. I am getting off.

Might I suggest that you start a new thread- this time on the detaching board?

You'll get different kind of input there.

Just a thought.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Sure, if they want to move it thats fine.

[Rev]

Sure, if they want to move it thats fine.

I would suggest you start a complete new thread ...

Give people a resume of where you've been and what brought on the change

I'm really sorry that you've been hurt.  In the detaching board you'll have the chance to really focus on your own needs.

It'll give you a fresh start.

Hang in there.  You're worth it.

Rev

[SaltyDawg]

I miss a great many thing, but I do not miss fighting.

This is perhaps the thing I noticed the most from your recent posts, it really caught my attention when you said that.  When I confronted my pwBPD, when she stonewalled me for pretty much the entire month of October, I really enjoyed the sound of silence - no fighting.  The rages were gone, but so was her passion towards me.  It was all gone, for a whole month.  It wasn't until she had yet another crisis when she realized that she needed to do something in November. 

MyPWD is learning how to fight fair, and not flood.  She needs to prove to me that she is not BPD as I had suggested, so she is behaving much more civilized; however, it still comes through from time to time when she is really triggered illogically and testing the new 'no abuse' [physical, emotional, verbal] boundaries that have been put in place.

For the past two weeks, I would say we have made some decent progress in this area, and she is finally starting to warm up to me.  However, I am just waiting for the 'ax to drop', as it once again seems 'too good to be true'.  However, I am enjoying it while it lasts.

She's completely backed off, cold and mean again.
 
In October, my wpBPD backed off completely, and was cold too.  However, I wouldn't characterize her as being mean unless you considered being stonewalled 'mean'.

I'm feeling very low, used, strung along, lied to and manipulated right now.
I am validating your feelings.  Anyone who has been through what you have been through has a right to feel the way that you do.  Back then, and I still do to a lesser extent also feel much the same way you do.  If I had to choose one word to describe the way I felt back then, and still do to a lesser extent, the word that comes to my mind is 'betrayed' which sums up the way I felt when my pwBPD discarded the relationship.  Am I being recycled right now?  I don't know, but it is my goal to break free from the borderline/narcissistic cycle

She was lonely around Christmas, hang out with me until she found someone else interesting, and now has shelved me yet again.

I know this is how you feel.  However, please be aware, even though her thought processes seem distorted, I had to eat a huge amount of 'humble pie,' to see how my own actions and inactions contributed to the demise of my own relationship that I am currently putting in one last 'hail Mary' attempt at salvaging which is somewhat parallel to your own, but not quite as extreme.  It required me to shift into a mode of DBT 'radical acceptance' which to me was a totally alien concept as recent as three months ago.  Please look at my previous post, to see how she might see your actions and how they contributed to where you are at now.  Use it as a road map, to avoid similar pitfalls with whomever you meet in the future.

I had to do this for myself, as this is my 2nd dance with a upwBPD, so I felt compelled to do a deep dive on myself, to see where I had messed up, since this was the 2nd failure in the span of 2-1/2 decades.

I don't like this ride anymore. I am getting off.

You have to decide what is best for you, and then do what is best for you. 

Good Luck, and take care.

P.S.  If you do move it to the detaching board, leave a link here [and there back to this thread] to continue your journey.

[OKrunch]

IDK. She's seemingly done, but that has been the case more than once in the past.

Saw she updated / made a new dating profile today. That sucked, but also told me that whomever she is seeing is not up to snuff?

I want to be done. I want to detach. I want to not care.
But I cannot seem to accomplish those.

I had a improptu T session yesterday, It helped. But seeing that profile this morning kicked it all over.

I dont want this to be done. I dont want to not have her in my life.
I cant reach out, im excommunicated.

I feel like S**t

[OKrunch]

I keep just going over and over in my head - "Is she just super stressed with work/parenting/finanaces and seasonal depression, or does she legit dislikes me and honestly wants me to piss off"

Is it a split? is it depression? is it pressure?
Will i hear from her? if so, how long will it take?

Things were going good 2-3 weeks ago. Wtf happened?

I can't shut these questions up.

[Pook075]

I keep just going over and over in my head - "Is she just super stressed with work/parenting/finanaces and seasonal depression, or does she legit dislikes me and honestly wants me to piss off"

Is it a split? is it depression? is it pressure?
Will i hear from her? if so, how long will it take?

Things were going good 2-3 weeks ago. Wtf happened?

I can't shut these questions up.

Hey buddy.  You're thinking about this the wrong way...what she's thinking, what she's feeling, why she's doing what she's doing.

All those thought are about why someone with BPD makes surprising choices.  None of us are qualified to answer that here other than the base answer of "they live off emotion, not logic".  That's all we have- the answer to all of your questions is that she's not thinking this out like you or I would.

Give it time, my friend, and find a way to be content with this process playing out without your input.  You have no control over her feelings of thought patterns.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   I feel for you.  It is terrible.  I am sending you a hug.   

   Please do some self-care.  Go outside, and walk, run, get some sun on your face. 

   Take a hot shower.  Curl up with a book/movie/tv show - do something to distract yourself from all of this pain.

   Do another T session if you can.  Vent here. 

   Take care.

Salty

[OKrunch]

Well it's been over two weeks so I figured I'd dip in for an update.

Back on February 12th she finally made arrangements for me to come and pick up my phone. I had asked about meeting up and taking the dogs for a walk, to which she initially said no, and then changed her mind and said that she would like that. About 20 minutes later she texted me and said that she had a bunch of family drama going on and didn't want to leave the house anymore. She said she would leave the phone out on the mailbox for me. I told her I could come in like 20 minutes or a half an hour and asked her to let me know when she wanted me to come and she got more irritated and I said I will be there in an hour. She seems to be satisfied with being told what the circumstance was. When I went there an hour later it was not out on the mailbox as she had said it would be. I texted her and she was like oh I'm still staring at the ceiling I'm sorry and told me to come to the house to get it. I stayed outside with the dogs, and she told me that I could come inside, and offered me coffee. We were chit-chatting and she was obviously in a bad mood. I asked how things were going with Her daughter and she started going off about the things that were stressing her out which transitioned into her getting upset about things between her and I. At one point she told me she's just completely done and we need to just put it behind us. She seemed pretty convinced when she said this. We continue talking for another 5 or 10 minutes and eventually she was just like you need to leave and I said yep that's fine and I left. I sent a text message trying to diffuse things afterwards, and she apologized for today's interaction. The only thing is I'm just sitting here wondering now if that apology means that she didn't mean what she said about us never ever being a thing or if she's just apologizing that we argued. I think in the back of her mind she knows she was the one who brought the conversation in that direction.

She is genuinely stressed out, and still painting me black as a way to cope.

The following morning She texted first thing this morning and thanked me for the message that I had sent last night. She said she was still in a  disassociative mood and said that she hoped it would pass soon. This is the first time I've seen her really use this piece of terminology, which tells me that she's listening to the things she's hearing from her psychiatrists.  I found it rather telling that she was apologizing to me about how things went on Sunday considering on Sunday she told me that she never wanted to be with me again and if that was the case why bother talking to me? 



We were not in touch for several days following that.

Feb 17th - 21st: No contact for several days. I reached out on Saturday. We began to have a normal conversation, and then she went off about her PLEASE READ family doing PLEASE READty things in regards to her grandparents estate. She then went on to talk about how she is "losing her daughter". She mentioned "losing her" again. She said something to the effect of "This is why i cant even discuss us right now" I said there was nothing to discuss, that i hoped things improved for her soon, and that i was here if she needed anything. She never replied to that. I sent a "hope youre well" text on Sunday, also no reply.



Having gotten no response from Sundays text I waited a few days to check in. She has a LOT going on right now and I care a lot about her daughter and want her to do well.

 I waited 3 days before I reached out again. I messaged her yesterday morning at about noon and just asked how things were going. She didn't message me back until 10:30 last night and said " hi thank you for the sweet message. I'm doing my best and taking it one day at a time. I hope you are well" I said I was doing fine and mentioned that I took My Son to snowboarding recently. She didn't respond last night but did at about 8 this morning we talked briefly about Her Daughter doing kickboxing and My Son doing snowboarding. I asked how Her Daughter was doing and she replied "We are full of ebbs and flows" Figuring I would say something while the conversation was going pleasantly, I asked if she had any plans this coming Saturday. She said she has plans with her father to work on her car Saturday night. If I'm being completely honest I don't want 100% buy that, she may be meeting up with her dad to do car stuff but I highly doubt that it's in the evening time. Probably during the day on Saturday. I replied by saying
" okay I should be around if your plans change and you end up wanting to hang out let me know if there's any other time that you would want to" to which she replied, and this is kind of what I would like to dissect here. And I know I'm trying to mind read.
" I'm sorry but I don't think hanging out would be good for me. I have tried to explain that I need to focus my energy here and I cannot be getting back into our messy situation - whether you think it can be casual or not. I don't want to say it harshly. I hope you understand what I am saying. You hurt me and I hurt you even though we loved each other. Those are lots of deep-seated emotions that you can't just stuff down"
 My reply: " you have explained, and I don't want to just stuff them down. I do understand what you're saying and I'm happy that you are focusing on yourself. I don't want anything to be messy and I don't want anything to be serious or dramatic or anything. I would really like to spend time with you, if and when you are ready to do that, and in whatever capacity you need"
She simply said " thank you for understanding"



I just need to get myself a proper game plan. I'm glad that her and I had a pleasant exchange and that the door is open, but again I'm going to continue to stretch out or even eliminate when I reach out.

[OKrunch]

Also worth mentioning, the whole phone situation was resolved two weeks ago. I got a new phone with a new plan and a new phone number. I told her she could cancel my old phone line anytime at this point. She has not done so. I think there's a part of her that does not want to close off that last line of open communication.



For somebody that has complained about excess bills, it seems very odd that she would keep this phone line open, rather than just ask me for my new number and shut the old one off.

[SaltyDawg]

Thank you for the update.

It sounds pretty messy.  She is definitely processing everything about your relationship.

What stood out for me is your comment on her relationship with her daughter, it sounds like a pretty similar dynamic going on there where that relationship is also strenuous at best.

For my particular situation, I know my interaction with my uBPDw is very triggering for her, and I suspect a similar dynamic in your situation.  She needs to figure it out on her terms.  What I found very helpful is to record my interaction with my wife, and review it when I am no longer triggered myself, and I can see how she becomes triggered based on my actions, and then I correct my behavior to make it smoother.

As you have aptly observed, that she is now using terminology associated with therapy.  She needs to figure out what is best for her, just as you need to figure out what is best for you.  Just pray and hope for the best for her, and she will get the help that she needs.

Notably absent, you didn't mention your therapists and her opinion on the current situation.  You may want to discuss your feelings and observations with your therapist, and what you can do to take care of yourself in this situation.

I am a firm believer in self-care, whatever, that looks like for you.

Take care.

[OKrunch]

Thank you for the update.

It sounds pretty messy.  She is definitely processing everything about your relationship.

What stood out for me is your comment on her relationship with her daughter, it sounds like a pretty similar dynamic going on there where that relationship is also strenuous at best.

For my particular situation, I know my interaction with my uBPDw is very triggering for her, and I suspect a similar dynamic in your situation.  She needs to figure it out on her terms.  What I found very helpful is to record my interaction with my wife, and review it when I am no longer triggered myself, and I can see how she becomes triggered based on my actions, and then I correct my behavior to make it smoother.

As you have aptly observed, that she is now using terminology associated with therapy.  She needs to figure out what is best for her, just as you need to figure out what is best for you.  Just pray and hope for the best for her, and she will get the help that she needs.

Notably absent, you didn't mention your therapists and her opinion on the current situation.  You may want to discuss your feelings and observations with your therapist, and what you can do to take care of yourself in this situation.

I am a firm believer in self-care, whatever, that looks like for you.

Take care.

Salty, thats just it. I think She is processing everything BUT our relationship. That is too much to unpack for her right now with all the other stuff like her daughter, work, money, family drama etc. going on.

Can you elaborate on what you said about the relationship with her daughter?

I just messaged my Therapist, she basically told me it sounds like she is begging for space, and not wanting to be mean or rude about it. So that is what I will provide. I need to focus on my fitness, and my housing.
So, no more check ins with her for now. If she chats with me, ill respond, but I've got to treat it like she won't.
My therapist also frequently lets me know this is her cycle, and my presence in her life of lacktherof won't change that.
I tell her I know it's a cycle, and I know the risks and implications of continuing to stay where I am at.

I have given myself to the end of the Summer to get myself situated in a house or apartment down here. If I cannot, I will probably go north and stay with my parents. Housing is far cheaper up there. significantly.
2023 will prove to be a year of change no matter what. 

[Pook075]

" I'm sorry but I don't think hanging out would be good for me. I have tried to explain that I need to focus my energy here and I cannot be getting back into our messy situation - whether you think it can be casual or not. I don't want to say it harshly. I hope you understand what I am saying. You hurt me and I hurt you even though we loved each other. Those are lots of deep-seated emotions that you can't just stuff down"
 
My reply: " you have explained, and I don't want to just stuff them down. I do understand what you're saying and I'm happy that you are focusing on yourself. I don't want anything to be messy and I don't want anything to be serious or dramatic or anything. I would really like to spend time with you, if and when you are ready to do that, and in whatever capacity you need"
She simply said " thank you for understanding"

When my BPD ex and I first split up, she'd call and say that we couldn't throw away 24 years of marriage.  The next day, she'd say it's over and doesn't have any feelings for me at all.  A few hours later, she'd show up and want to talk...only to explode and say super hateful things.  Then she'd text me a day later asking if I wanted to go to dinner.

Like you, I kept trying to figure out which part was "the truth"...like there had to be one specific way she felt and the rest was just emotion in the moment.  I now accept that it's all the truth and that's how her brain works when she's stressed; she just can't process things in a normal way and it's a complete roll of the dice whether she loves me or not in that moment.

In the statement I quoted from your ex above, I think she's being dead-on honest and you need to accept that.  In her words, I don't see an "I don't love you" or a "we can never be together" type of vibe.  She's saying that she needs to work thru her problems on her own and you need to let some stuff go that complicates a potential future together. 

Honestly, that's the same advice everyone here has been giving you as well- work on yourself and let her go, let her figure this out on her terms and give her a chance to heal.  Your job is not to rescue her, your job is to let her figure out how to rescue herself and be happy in her own skin.  And you need to do the same.

I can tell you from experience, I didn't give my wife space when she first left and I did the exact same thing you did.  I wanted to save her like I always did, and I wanted to save our marriage.  That essentially doomed us though because it pushed her away more than anything- my pursuit only confirmed the fears in her mind that she had to run.  It's not logical, it's not right by any means, but that's how someone with BPD processes breakups.  It's 100% emotion 100% of the time, and those feelings can change in a blink of an eye.

I hope that helps.

[OKrunch]

In the statement I quoted from your ex above, I think she's being dead-on honest and you need to accept that.  In her words, I don't see an "I don't love you" or a "we can never be together" type of vibe.  She's saying that she needs to work thru her problems on her own and you need to let some stuff go that complicates a potential future together. 

Honestly, that's the same advice everyone here has been giving you as well- work on yourself and let her go, let her figure this out on her terms and give her a chance to heal.  Your job is not to rescue her, your job is to let her figure out how to rescue herself and be happy in her own skin.  And you need to do the same.

I can tell you from experience, I didn't give my wife space when she first left and I did the exact same thing you did.  I wanted to save her like I always did, and I wanted to save our marriage.  That essentially doomed us though because it pushed her away more than anything- my pursuit only confirmed the fears in her mind that she had to run.  It's not logical, it's not right by any means, but that's how someone with BPD processes breakups.  It's 100% emotion 100% of the time, and those feelings can change in a blink of an eye.

I hope that helps.

this does help, a lot, its an affirmation of exactly what I am trying to accomplish. You chose the exact words to let me know what my gut is telling me to do is right, and you also put my anxiety at ease with saying she isnt saying 'NO NOT EVER"

My biggest fear is this all just turning to dust, to never speak again, and worst yet to see her possibly build a life on the foundation we built together.

Fear is a hell of a drug.

Thank you Pook, that helps more than I can say

[Pook075]

this does help, a lot, its an affirmation of exactly what I am trying to accomplish. You chose the exact words to let me know what my gut is telling me to do is right, and you also put my anxiety at ease with saying she isnt saying 'NO NOT EVER"

My biggest fear is this all just turning to dust, to never speak again, and worst yet to see her possibly build a life on the foundation we built together.

Fear is a hell of a drug.

Thank you Pook, that helps more than I can say

Maybe it all does turn to dust...that's a real possibility.  You have to be okay with that though because you have no say on her mental health.  It's great that you're both taking steps to heal but at the end of the day, you ultimately have to choose each other and she doesn't sound like she's close to that point.

I hope it works out for you man, I really do, but you're going to be okay even if it doesn't.  Focus on you, my brother, and find other passions in life to get you through the day/week/month/year.

[OKrunch]

Thanks again.

I know it may be dust. I have to accept that. I have been trying to remind myself its been FIVE MONTHS.
And it was NINE last time we broke up.
I need to be able to get over it and move on.

If we hadn't reconnected back in the beginning of Jan, this would be a lot easier.
I was doing pretty good in the first two months of the breakup. It wasn't until Novemeber, the pregnancy thing, and talking thru Dec and spending time together in Jan that it got way harder.

I just can shake the feeling of being replaced. Its an ego thing and It shouldn't effect me.

People keep telling me ill meet someone better, but thats damn hard to imagine. She set the bar so freakin high.

I have been keeping a personal journal since Jan. I will keep up on that. I will not reach out on her birthday (Mar 14)
Reply only mode.

I have challenged myself to do this so many times. The longest I've lasted was a few weeks.
I am determined to do it right this time.

Day 1 begins again today.

[SaltyDawg]

Can you elaborate on what you said about the relationship with her daughter?

[...]

I have given myself to the end of the Summer to get myself situated in a house or apartment down here. If I cannot, I will probably go north and stay with my parents. Housing is far cheaper up there. significantly.
2023 will prove to be a year of change no matter what.

With a borderline, they will be most severe with their favorite person, usually their spouse, but not always.  They will also be unstable with others that they like, like her daughter.  Not much to elaborate on, other than both your relationship with her and her relationship with her daughter are both unstable.  Same symptom for both you and her.  Didn't mean too much with that statement, other than an observation.

Sounds like you got a good plan, please stick with it, as each time you revisit [the relationship] you are figuratively pulling the bandage off a fresh wound and re-injuring your emotional self, it will hurt like heck.

Do self-care under the guidance of your therapist.

Take Care.