If I divorce him, will he target the children instead of me?

[zondolit]

I'm considering divorce. One fear I have is that the children (I'm assuming shared custody) will then become the target of my BPD/NPD husband's anger and blame. Thoughts and experiences on this?

[SinisterComplex]

I'm considering divorce. One fear I have is that the children (I'm assuming shared custody) will then become the target of my BPD/NPD husband's anger and blame. Thoughts and experiences on this?

The unfortunate reality is that you cannot think about that because ultimately you cannot control it. Is it possible...yes. But, it is also possible that he doesn't as well. The best thing you can do is what is best for YOU. The most unhealthy thing I see a lot of couples do is stay together for the kids. Do I understand it? Of course. However, you could make the argument it causes more damage to the kids as opposed to the desired outcome of limiting damage. Unhappy couples give off negative energy and that rubs off on the kids and puts the kids in the crossfire even worse.

The best thing you can do as a parent is do what is best for you and to make yourself happy so that your kids can see the best version of you. If you are happy then the kids are happy. 

Everyone will have their own opinion on it. I am just providing a viewpoint that you cannot put your own needs and wants aside here. You matter and you still have to do for YOU.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[ForeverDad]

Another consideration... if he doesn't target the children yet, he's very likely to do so in the years to come.  Babies progress to toddlers, to preschoolers, and on into teenagers.  Along the way they naturally seek increasing levels of independence.  Over time that is sure to trigger outbursts, demands and who knows what else.  Ponder that.

BPD is an acting-out disorder.  "Acting out" is where harm is done moreso to others.  That is the Cluster B group of personality disorders.  (Borderline, Narcissistic, Antisocial and Histrionic.  I would add possibly Paranoid as well.)  "Acting in" is where the person directs more harm to oneself.

I made a post years ago that I've repeated periodically.  While the PD behaviors do become evident over a broad spectrum, from somewhat manageable to severely unmanageable, this is an objective perspective.

Living in a calm and stable home will give them a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  So many of us felt we had to stay in a marriage no matter what but sometimes, in cases like ours, that's just not the right thing to do.  Some 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  You don't have to feel guilty about ending the dysfunction.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment - your home, wherever that is - away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

[kells76]

And to put another angle out there:

Often (though not always), there's a different dynamic in terms of parenting desire/parenting time/custody/involvement when the BPD parent is the mom vs the dad.

For both moms and dads with BPD, there's often a strong desire to be seen as "Mom/Dad Of The Year", and to denigrate the other parent.

Where the dynamic differs, however, is that dads with BPD tend to say a lot about wanting more/all parenting time, and fight for a lot on paper, but in actuality, give that time away and don't really engage with the kids. An example would be a dad with BPD fighting in court for a 70/30 split in his favor, getting it, but then every time he's supposed to be with the kids, "something comes up", "I already had plans", "I'm dropping the kids off now instead of tomorrow", etc.

Moms with BPD tend to not only talk about wanting all the PT and fight to have it on paper, they will overreach past whatever's on paper to want to in actuality fully possess the children. An example would be a mom with BPD fighting in court for a 70/30 split in her favor, getting it, and then not being satisfied with that, signing the kids up for activities not on her time, convincing the kids they don't want to go to the other house, saying "we just need to listen to the kids' voices", "I'm just supporting what the kids want", etc.

This is not a hard-and-fast rule, as there have been some members here where the PD mom was not interested in parenting and was interested in walking away from the kids to pursue a new love interest.

So, it's important to think about where your kids' dad may tend. Do you think he wants to be seen as "Dad Of The Year" on paper, but in reality would be a "I'm dropping the kids off early with you" person?

It is not impossible that instead of him targeting the kids with his rage and blame, he may want to parent less than you think. Of course, you know him best, so let me know if this hypothesis is off track. If it is a possibility, though, that is some leverage you can use as you work with your lawyer to put together a parenting plan.

[zondolit]

Thanks, all. This is helpful.

I do think that as the children get older and more independent, they will likely become targets. Divorce or not, my job is to model the skills taught on this forum.* Right now I've seen the older ones make some attempts to intervene with my husband. For the moment, my husband holds his tongue with them, but I don't see this lasting.

If custody is 50/50, this will be a huge change for everyone since I do the bulk of the parenting. It is my husband's narcissism more than BPD gender dynamics that makes me wonder if he will fight for more time then he will actually be able to carry out. But this is not my main concern. No matter how much time he spends with the children (he won't leave their lives), there is still the possibility he will target them.

*Just this week one child said to me, "thanks for trying to treat daddy well." Some weeks ago, another child said, "I don't want to pick sides, but it seems like daddy gets angry at you over nothing much." Over the past 1.5 years, as I've practiced staying calm, not JADEing, trying to be curious, and trying to validate, where I've seen the most impact is not my husband--he has actually become more delusional, blaming, fearful, etc.--but my children. They pick up on the differences. Whereas if I was not so skillful it would likely look like two angry adults, both fighting each other. While difficult, the skills are a gift to myself and my children (and my husband, if he'd accept it).

[SaltyDawg]

I am going to stereotype a NPD for divorce as it is most likely true as others have already alluded to [there are exceptions to this rule however, and that is my disclaimer] -- this is based on observations of aquaintences who have divorced this kind of person and what you have said.

If he is a NPD, during the divorce he will fight to get custody of them; however, once the divorce is finalized, you will likely find yourself taking care of the children, as you are now.  He likely doesn't want to pay for support and may use the children as pawns to torment you if he is a vindictive variety.

Make sure you get an attorney that is for 'high conflict' divorces.  Also document everything, record everything too in case he does something stupid, you can more easily prove your side if you have a recording, versus he said / she said type stuff.

[ForeverDad]

If custody is 50/50, this will be a huge change for everyone since I do the bulk of the parenting...

This is where you Let Go the concept of fairness (blindly sharing) and concentrate on doing what is right for you and the children, with a "least bad" outcome as the goal.

Maybe court defaults to 50/50 but it will address that if you document otherwise.  If not initially then eventually.

my children pick up on the differences. Whereas if I was not so skillful it would likely look like two angry adults, both fighting each other. While difficult, the skills are a gift to myself and my children (and my husband, if he'd accept it).

Be forewarned that court often views the heightened emotions and allegations as typical bickering spouses.  Court assumes once the divorce is final then both will get on with their lives as most normally do.  When a divorce case includes acting-out PDs like BPD or NPD, that "they're just upset and will calm down afterward" concept flies out the window.

Your spouse will almost surely cause problems and conflict, court needs to see you are the one seeking solutions.  Again, court needs to recognize this, if not initially then eventually.

Make sure you get an attorney that is for 'high conflict' divorces.  Also document everything, record everything too in case he does something stupid, you can more easily prove your side if you have a recording, versus he said / she said type stuff.

"He said, she said" claims are often assumed to be bickering, categorized by courts as "hearsay" and thereafter ignored.  Courts rely on many inputs (laws, policies, procedures, established default preferences, etc) but documentation is what counts.

Do your children have counselors?  My lawyer told me, "Court loves counseling."  Even if one parent resists the children getting counseling, court will usually support the parent seeking counseling.  While counselors typically avoid testifying in court (to avoid lawsuits or complaints to licensing boards) they do speak in less obvious ways to Custody Evaluators and other professionals associated with the court system.

[Torched]

I’m very sorry you have to go through this.  It is heart wrenching.

During my divorce six years ago, my exbpd wife immediately enmeshed my daughter who was 10 by sleeping with her as a condition of “helping mom feel better.”  I was close to both kids and noticed the situation.  I unilaterally placed daughter in counseling.  At the time I didn’t really know much about BPD…but I knew the behavior mom was displaying was really what I had been expected to participate in as a husband for years.  First meeting with counselor and I bring it up when asked if we each have concerns.  Ex says “my daughter is kind and she should take care of her mother.”  Counselor told her that is completely unacceptable.  Ex never has accompanied daughter to counseling since.  Counselor then worked with daughter to give her boundary tools, anxiety tools to deal with mom.  Counselor after working with daughter 2 years  told her that mothers behaviors were probably BPD.  Validated daughter’s problems.  Daughter became the target of ex because she was best at setting boundaries (perceived as an abandonment threat).  In summer after my son went to college it became unbearable for daughter who is 16.  She got a new counselor, made an informed decision to move into my home full time after some more BPD rages, and went NC with ex.

If you told me this would happen six years ago I would’ve fought to expose my ex’s undiagnosed condition to protect kids but it would have possibly failed.  Courts don’t want to hear it because too many parents cry wolf.  If he is diagnosed though I would not hesitate to bring that out.

I think you can try to get your kids counseling which teaches them to identify and set boundaries for known/occurring abusive behaviors right away.  They will tell you very little but they may be instilled with enough to protect them.  And just having a healthy caring true parent can be enough to get them through. 

[Torched]

I also should say this:  if he is as you say, he will bad mouth you and try hard to turn the kids.  I was worried about alienation but my kids love never wavered even though mother’s vitriol and lies were constant. 

I recall both children being incredibly upset at times over the intense internal struggles their mother forced on them concerning me and my family.  I never said a cross word but instead would say “Have you ever seen me hurt someone, say mean things, lie?”  “Instead, remember the time dad stopped to help the drunk man who fell on the curb?  Remember how dad talks to old neighbors and asks them if they need anything?  How he treats people in person and behind their backs, even ones who aren’t always nice to him?”

This is  the most effective thing you can do if you get scared about alienation.  The kids will see the truth if you simplify it like this.

[stepmomof2]

Think of the positives. If you get shared custody they will be able to spend big swaths of time away in an entirely different household, giving them an alterative definition of what is 'normal'. Additionally, if you end up in a healthy relationship later on they will be able to see that modeled for them, which so helpful when they start to take on SOs. Finally, your functional response to handling emotions and your happiness is actually an important thing to model as well, and also makes you a better parent for them at the same time.

[zondolit]

stepmomof2, Thanks, this is exactly what I am trying to focus on. I know how delightful it can be to be with my children when my husband is not around, and how hard it is to achieve this when he is around.

Torched, I'm sorry for all you've gone through. Some of my children were in counseling this past summer, and I would want them all to be in counseling if a divorce happens, although finances will be tight for a while. I don't think my husband has a formal diagnosis. I rarely talk explicitly with my children about my husband but rather simply try to model a good response; I find modeling so much more effective than talk--maybe because of my experience with my husband who talks the talk easily but his actions do not follow.

SaltyDog, I don't expect smooth sailing through a divorce. In fact, I am quite fearful of the false allegations I expect he will bring--things he already says to me. I've been the main financial provider for the family so frankly if he doesn't contribute to child support it won't be anything new. . .

Forever Dad, Yes, as I've considered my options I've come to the difficult conclusion that having the children half-time when I can be the parent I want to be is better than having them all the time but feeling continually stymied by my husband's interference. This realization was a big step for me. 

Be forewarned that court often views the heightened emotions and allegations as typical bickering spouses.

Grr. I've certainly experienced this not in court but among some friends who assume "it takes two to tango." It feels very unfair--it is unfair--and I'm trying to accept this.

[kells76]

Some of my children were in counseling this past summer, and I would want them all to be in counseling if a divorce happens, although finances will be tight for a while.

That's great that some of the kids got counseling -- good to establish that relationship.

Makes sense that finances will be a factor in whether they can all go. One angle to consider is connecting with their school counselor -- saying something like "the kids' living situation is going to transition to a two-household situation next month" or "not sure you knew this, but the kids have recently gone through a switch from one home to a Mom's house/Dad's house setup" and seeing if you can get on the same page of the kids either having an "open door drop in" policy with the counselor, or setting up a semi-regular time for the kids to check in (start of lunch period, etc). You could also see if the school counselor will take contact info from the kids' previous counselor, and vice versa. And, talk with the kids about seeing the school counselor, too -- "Hey, even though we can't take you to see Ms Private Counselor any more, what we can do is give you some time to talk with Mr School Counselor. What do you think -- would it work better if there was just a set time every week for you to talk to him, or it was more flexible, where as long as you dropped in once a month, it could be any time?"

Getting all the professionals involved on the same page and talking seems pretty important when there's high conflict. The school counselor setup, while it'd be a new professional, bypasses the financial challenge, and as long as both counselors can talk to each other, could be a way to go.

Have your kids been open to / cooperative with counseling?

[zondolit]

Have your kids been open to / cooperative with counseling?

It was mixed. They liked the counselors and so did I, but they were scared and confused by some of the behaviors of other children in the waiting room, and at least one child thought it a waste of time ("All we do is play chess. Why do I have to miss school for this?").

Over the few months of counseling, there was a subtle but significant shift in my one child for which I am very grateful. This is speculation but I think the counselor simply assured her it was okay to go to and rely on one parent (me) more for support than the other.

I think I would use the same approach I did before with my children: "There's nothing wrong with you but you are in a stressful situation and it can be helpful to have a neutral, trained professional to talk with. Try it for three months and then you can choose to continue or not." And I model this myself by seeing my own counselor.