Stalemate…

[thankful person]

Hi all, appreciate any thoughts anyone has as always. I’m feeling very defeated. For those who don’t know me, I am a married lesbian, dbpdw. My wife is completely in denial… she used to cut and was bulimic and dbt therapy helped her beat those behaviours. The other day she randomly mentioned, “I don’t meet the criteria for bpd anymore.” I nod supportively. And I’m silently screaming whilst tearing my hair out..

We have 3 children which she carried and birthed through ivf. They are very small and the youngest is only 2 months. My wife had historically gone through intense and lengthy splits where I am a terrible wife and that I don’t support her, she doesn’t feel loved or desired. For some reason when I joined bpd family early 2021 and learnt all these new skills and communication methods it was like a dream repairing my relationship. I felt I’d finally got through to my wife, and I was so happy, happier than I’d ever been, for about a whole year. Then a few weeks after baby 3 arrived she turned on me. It was the “not feeling desired”. She wanted me talking about sex but not to touch her, no affection, no physical closeness. Apparently we “got back together” for our five year anniversary and then again at new year. But “nothing has changed” and apparently I’m not making any effort. I don’t know what she wants from me and the goalposts keep moving so I feel I always fail to be the latest thing she wants. Now it is about feeling unloved, feeling unwanted. She wanted to feel desired but apparently I overdid that and now she just feels like a sexual object (she has a history of sexual abuse). I think she wants me to spend money on her, but we have none due to her excessive spending at what has been a financially stressful time for us. Things are picking up with my work but of course then she says all I care about is work and guilts me out of working saying she needs me here.

Christmas Day actually went well but then I got very sick soon after Christmas and I’m only just coming out of it. It’s hard to feel sexy or attractive or have the confidence to make her feel it. Especially as we’re so busy with our little ones and also have 3 extra dogs staying as that is my wife’s line of work but I actually do most of the work while she cares for the baby.

I’m so worn out. I have considered the long term possibility of leaving though it breaks my heart especially leaving the children. But I can only hope she will come through this split. I know she will never adore me as in the beginning. But all I want is for her to value me and our relationship and I feel she doesn’t. We get along well on the surface. We are a good team raising our beautiful family together. Recently the children have been mostly unaware of any discord between us, since the “problem” shifted from a sex problem to a love problem.

I know it’s not the time to make long term decisions about our future. I’m just trying to get through one day and night at a time.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[babyducks]

hello thankful person

The other day she randomly mentioned, “I don’t meet the criteria for bpd anymore.” I nod supportively.

there are many pieces to this pie.    you probably don't recall but my Ex was diagnosed Bipolar 1 and something else, most likely BPD as they can be comorbid together.    after 7 or so years of therapy including DBT and medication she no longer met the criteria for the something else/BPD.    technically, clinically she wasn't self harming, wasn't actively suicidal, just didn't quite check all the boxes any longer.   being just below the level of diagnosis, which is subjective anyhow, didn't make her behaviors any less troublesome.    her being cured really gave me a lot of clues about how differently we viewed life, how our perspectives were vastly different.   basically how we processed life was entirely different.   her locus of control was external.  victim oriented and self aggrandizing.

I joined bpd family early 2021 and learnt all these new skills and communication methods it was like a dream repairing my relationship. I felt I’d finally got through to my wife, and I was so happy, happier than I’d ever been, for about a whole year.

I'm thinking of some of waverider's recent posts here.    and I find myself in agreement with him.    the skills and tools don't make the relationship healthy, because at its core, at the most basic level it's based on a combination of dysfunctional coping mechanisms.  ours and theirs.  for me, I made every effort, overfunctioning and trying to keep the relationship moving forward and it still wasn't enough.  it was still a relationship significantly out of balance.

I don’t know what she wants from me and the goalposts keep moving so I feel I always fail to be the latest thing she wants.

if you chase her emotions, the goalposts will keep moving. people oriented on the bpd spectrum believe their emotions as being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their emotions.    they believe the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change.    if their emotions aren't changing its because you haven't done enough.   that's an exceptionally hard nut to crack especially when your partner is in denial as yours is.   chasing her emotions trying to fix things without balancing in your own boundaries, needs and limits is a no win situation.

I’m so worn out. I have considered the long term possibility of leaving though it breaks my heart especially leaving the children. But I can only hope she will come through this split. I know she will never adore me as in the beginning. But all I want is for her to value me and our relationship and I feel she doesn’t.

of course you are worn out.    anyone would be.    when do you really get the opportunity to relax and take care of yourself?   one of my vivid memories of the last days of my relationship was never really feeling safe enough to sleep.   even in bed, in the middle of the night I was always waiting for the next episode.    a person can't live in constant crisis.   

it would seem to me that the children are the most important thing right now.    they are dependent on you and your wife for care and comfort.    as you consider the future, what are your thoughts about how you take care of them?

the chances of your wife being able to consistently value you and the relationship are not high.    it is something she will struggle with.   its important to think about what skills/tools you can develop to protect you from devalution phases and how much devaluation you can tolerate before it damages you and your health.

keep posting.

'ducks

[thankful person]

Thanks ducks, good to hear from you as always. I have good days and bad days and yes they are related to my wife’s moods and treatment of me. If I don’t react emotionally and get terribly upset by what she says then her behaviour and accusations escalate with her screaming that I don’t care and don’t show any emotion. To a point she’s right. I have become so much stronger especially since joining bpd family and getting some perspective from you guys. I am in the relationship for the children to a great extent, but also it’s the classic the good times with my wife are good and we actually get along pretty well these days. I really don’t feel I would ever entertain the idea of a new relationship hahaha. I do fantasise about being alone. I am taking my wife less seriously since all this “getting back together” and “splitting up” nonsense. Even her 12 year old niece has less drama in her relationship! My wife bought me some wonderful gifts for anniversary and Christmas. I know it doesn’t mean much but it means she wanted to celebrate these occasions and make me feel loved. She bought them whilst I thought she hated me. I know I can’t ever “win” and I think I just need to be that little bit tougher to handle her and today I feel stronger but there haven’t been any incidents today. The threats are always there. We have snow forecast on one of my teaching days next week. We have just moved to a new area where they have snow at times, and one of my wife’s worst tantrums back in December was over me not cancelling all work immediately it started snowing, so that we could all enjoy the snow as a family.  I know this is going to go down, I can already see what’s going to happen. I am not backing down, I am going to work. She will just have to deal with it. And I will have to deal with her tantrums and accusations. Again.

[babyducks]

If I don’t react emotionally and get terribly upset by what she says then her behaviour and accusations escalate with her screaming that I don’t care and don’t show any emotion.

what do you do when she escalates to screaming?

My wife bought me some wonderful gifts for anniversary and Christmas. I know it doesn’t mean much but it means she wanted to celebrate these occasions and make me feel loved. She bought them whilst I thought she hated me.

motivation is a funny thing.   I am sure if you had bought the gifts, it would have been to convey loving feelings.     I am wondering if her motivation was quite the same as yours would have been.    For me, my experience was, my partner was very invested in managing the outgoing facade.   It had to look good.   to others.   holidays, birthdays, anniversaries had to be perfect.   the perfect was to support her fragile sense of self more than it was about anything else.   the tacitly implied message was "see how perfect my relationship is and how wonderfully I am doing in it".    that's how it could go from being broken up to back together in days.

  And I will have to deal with her tantrums and accusations.

what's your current strategy for dealing with the tantrums and accusations?   what are you doing to deescalate the situation?    what are you doing to give yourself some respite?

[thankful person]

Hi ducks, yes! I think you are right about the gifts.. I was also surprised to see my wife had posted on our anniversary on Facebook, “we have our ups and downs but our love and commitment to each other remains strong..” This was a few days after the snowy day when I was told I had “ruined everything”, and she said she had been planning to ask me to get back together but changed her mind. Then of course changed her mind again to post on Facebook…

what do you do when she escalates to screaming?

what's your current strategy for dealing with the tantrums and accusations?   what are you doing to deescalate the situation?    what are you doing to give yourself some respite?

I was taking the threat to my relationship more seriously before all this went down. My skills I had developed of validation, not JADEing and SET were no longer effective because she was just getting angry that I was so unemotional. I was thinking I just have to get through this period when the baby is small and then hopefully things will get easier (my wife would be less confrontational and critical etc - I could believe this possibility because we’ve been there before). So to an extent I went even more back to caretaking and in fact almost acting that I was upset and joining in with the drama, trying to be what she wants etc. I am just fed up with it now though, so again back to acting more calmly and trying not to engage with the drama. Sometimes it works better than others. The caretaking will always remain to some extent, I have always recognised this. It is a special needs relationship which will always need special attention. I’m hoping that I can again take some of the power back now that I know my wife wasn’t as serious as she said about things, I get to find out if it snows and I’ll let you know.

[Couscous]

My skills I had developed of validation, not JADEing and SET were no longer effective because she was just getting angry that I was so unemotional.

Hi thankfulperson,

One tool that might work much better than SET is called the CALM technique, although it is not easy to use with spouses. But it also works great on kids, so even if your wife doesn’t respond it’s an incredibly useful skill to have as a parent. I use it almost daily with my 5 year old who has big feelings, and it works like magic.

Jennifer Kolari explains how to do it at the 32m00s mark of this podcast: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fppxgAnbED4

Hope it will be of some use to you.

[Notwendy]

I'm thinking of some of waverider's recent posts here.    and I find myself in agreement with him.    the skills and tools don't make the relationship healthy, because at its core, at the most basic level it's based on a combination of dysfunctional coping mechanisms.  ours and theirs.  for me, I made every effort, overfunctioning and trying to keep the relationship moving forward and it still wasn't enough.  it was still a relationship significantly out of balance.

Something I wonder about is, when it was just the two of you, in some ways, you were overfunctioning to maintain this relationship with your younger and possibly emotionally childish in some ways, wife.

Now that you have young children, you may be looking to her as a partner, not a child, but if she's emotionally more on the level of a child, then she wants the same level of attention and care as one. That may have been possible initially but now, you have young children who take your care and attention.

From my own perspective, pwBPD don't rationalize this shift in attention. They see the absence. You see "the children need my attention right now" and you are able to rationalize getting less attention from your wife if she's occupied with them. However, your wife mainly feels the lesser attention and doesn't rationalize that while you still love her, you also love the children and they are little right now.

I have heard this kind of thing can happen even in marriages without BPD. When there is a new baby, the demands of child care seem to take over and there's less couple time. One or both parents may emotionally feel neglected but also, emotionally stable adults can rationalize why this situation is a necessary part of raising children together.

You may also be feeling the "lack of fit". We choose partners with whom we have an emotional match. It doesn't mean in the same way but the pattern matches. I think a part of the "fit" with your wife is that you do have strong caretaker traits. These are good qualities unless they go overboard into self neglect and self negating. You have regained some of your sense of self- your piano interest, seeing your parents- things you gave up to meet your wife's emotional needs but this didn't solve her issues and you were unhappy. With the children - your caretaking is appropriately focused. Small children need this kind of care. But maybe you just don't feel as much of a need to caretake your wife.

And as Ducks said- the skills and tools help us to relate better to people and to diminish our role in the dysfunction. They don't change the other person. I think most people come to these boards wanting to salvage their relationship but they are unhappy. It makes sense to learn the tools first, to diminish our part of the dysfunction. BPD is on a spectrum so perhaps for some relationships, this is enough to continue- to have  a functional relationship. There are many reasons people don't want to leave- maybe children, finances. If the relationship can be more functional, then this helps. Depending on the other person's capacity for emotional growth, they might adjust too, or they may not. It's hard to know until one tries. I agree that now isn't the time to make a long term decision, but you can reassess when things settle a bit.

[babyducks]

My skills I had developed of validation, not JADEing and SET were no longer effective because she was just getting angry that I was so unemotional.

sometimes the skills and tools just don't provide the result we are hoping for.   that's not a reflection on the skills or how well they are being utilized.    it's a given that these are very difficult relationships, with serious limitations.   NotWendy talked about the 'lack of fit' which is a good way of describing things.   If I remember correctly, when you first got together with your wife, you described how you saw your and your wife's being together. The fit appeared to be focused on a very high level of neediness.    She needed you to function in the world, you needed to be needed.  Unfortunately, that level of neediness is not sustainable.   For many reasons.   That 'fit' might have worked for a while, but now you have changed, the environment you are in has changed.    and as NotWendy pointed out, there is competition for resources.

my partner was lower functioning in relationships.   not quite as low as how you describe your wife.   using the skills and tools I could manage, with great effort, to have mutually beneficial relationship talks with her.   not often.   I would say less than 10 times during the course of our time together.    using all the SET and DEARMAN and Validation I could muster I could present my point of view.   during the conversation she would see my point of view.  but empathy was not a natural state for her and within a day or two of the talk her opinion would switch to I had "tricked" her or "coerced" her and that I wasn't being fair or kind to her.  the not kind label particularly hurt.

you see, her ability to entertain other view points, to see other perspectives than her own was so handicapped by her fractured sense of self that she immediately swung back to protecting and defending her feelings.    how does Fjelstad say it? 
 Their interpretation of events must be the only truth.     To me, that's a little bit more than a special needs relationship.    I would suggest that is a relationship based on a broken foundation.

  So to an extent I went even more back to caretaking and in fact almost acting that I was upset and joining in with the drama, trying to be what she wants etc.

Trying to be what she wants is self negating to you.    What are your boundaries around being what she wants?    Do you have a good sense of when/where to stop self negating?   And how are you attempting to support and care for yourself?     putting 100% of your effort and energy into the kids and the relationship will make you burn out quicker.

  I’m hoping that I can again take some of the power back now that I know my wife wasn’t as serious as she said about things, I get to find out if it snows and I’ll let you know.

hmmm.    I would suggest she is quite serious about what she said.   I would also suggest that she doesn't have the higher executive function to set goals and plans to accomplish the things she said.   

all and all Thankful - I would really encourage you to turn at least 10% of your effort and energy towards yourself.   to make a deliberate and conscious effort in self care, self validation, self support.  you are worth it.

'ducks

[thankful person]

Thank you all so much for your support as always. Ducks I’ll try and think of how to take better care of myself. It’s hard to find the time between work and kids and this is my wife’s issue. Yes not Wendy, my wife has always been jealous of our babies and in fact told me that this would be the case before we even had children. I think this is also the true reason my ex always refused to discuss having children with me. Interestingly when I met my wife I was way beyond hoping I’d one day have children. It was suggested to me by several people that my yearning to be with a much younger mentally unwell person was a reflection on me trying to fill the gap of not having children.
Couscous, I have tried to watch the podcast but I keep falling asleep. It is because I only get the chance when I’m tired. And I’m very tired. I get that it’s about connecting, maybe you could help me out a bit more with some suggestions? I would appreciate that. Strangely it did snow and my wife has been very accepting of me working anyway. Today I bought her a rose. I even decorated it with bank notes because my wife loves money so much. She didn’t say much but then later on I was told many many reasons for how I did this all wrong, where I got it, when I got it, when I gave it to her etc. She said she would dispose of the rose but it’s still on display. Whatever. I can’t seem to be bothered to pretend I’m upset and that’s part of the problem. I do want to reconnect with my wife. On the plus side we seem to get along pretty well these days but the problems are her jealousy of my love for our children and my commitment and enjoyment of my work.

[SaltyDawg]

One tool that might work much better than SET is called the CALM technique, although it is not easy to use with spouses. But it also works great on kids, so even if your wife doesn’t respond it’s an incredibly useful skill to have as a parent. I use it almost daily with my 5 year old who has big feelings, and it works like magic.

Jennifer Kolari explains how to do it at the 32m00s mark of this podcast: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fppxgAnbED4

CC,

   WOW, Thank you so much for that link.  I just got around to watching it today when I had some time.  I have already figured a good bit of that in conflict de-escalation; however, Jennifer obviously has developed it quite a bit more, and I learned quite a bit.

   My biggest learning moment take-a-way is the correlation of one simple physical action of relaxing your tongue [edit: and lower jaw - I experimented], lower it, and gently rest it on the back of your lower set of teeth [along with exhaling, not quite as much] just prior to engaging in a high-conflict conversation, and the seemingly instantaneous resulting physiological reaction that my body had was amazing in the amount it lowered the fight/flight response.

   I am wondering if you have come across any other techniques that are at a 'Jedi Mind Tricks' -like level?

[Couscous]

   I am wondering if you have come across any other techniques that are at a 'Jedi Mind Tricks' -like level?

For extremely argumentative people who won’t take no for an answer people I have found Susan Forward’s non-defensive communication from her book Emotional Blackmail also incredibly useful. I have also found The Nicola Method to be useful too.

www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/

[SaltyDawg]

Thank you, I will have a look at www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/ looks like they have a bunch of freebies too