Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 28, 2024, 11:43:08 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Things I couldn't have known
Supporting a Child in Therapy for Borderline Personality Disorder
Anosognosia and Getting a "Borderline" into Therapy
Am I the Cause of Borderline Personality Disorder?
Emotional Blackmail: Fear, Obligation and Guilt (FOG)
94
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: how to handle the roller coaster of guilt versus self safety  (Read 786 times)
4love

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: on the verge of estranged
Posts: 16


« on: March 29, 2023, 09:19:27 AM »

My 25 yo dd has just transferred from a short term residential program to a long term residential program. She had been and will again engage in EMBRE (sp?) trauma therapy. The program she is in primarily focuses on attachment theory/ models.  Family therapy is an important part of their program. I liked this because I would like to see my daughter become strong and self sufficient and I would like to develop a healthy and strong relationship with her- if possible. During a brief first phone call with her therapist the therapist mentioned her adoption would likely play a big role. I informed her that I had been in the delivery room, cut the cord , was the first to hold her and she went home from the hospital with us. She rather stridently asked if I had told my daughter that. Yes- but does she remember it?

After the phone call I started researching attachment theory and models.  I understand why there is a primary focus on early childhood but why is it always framed by childhood abuse or neglect? Why is it that parents seem to always be the people blamed? So now I'm trying to deal with  "it's my fault I was a horrible mother" voice clamoring in my head. Life long friends are reminding me of the many ways I was a good mother. And some are reminding me of how she often she has lashed out at me- I seemed to have forgotten those instances- I suppose it is easier to forget those moments.

Our family went thru nine years of non stop nightmares- from physical and mental health issues to divorce and other stressors thrown in.   One friend has reminded me that every time I seem to be moving in a positive direction in terms of my health and wellbeing- my dd does something and I lose all momentum. And as I told my friend- I have allowed her behavior to derail my motivation- the problem is mine.

I am reading the many books suggested here and have begun to see my own therapist.

I had been feeling hopeful but not so much anymore.  Does the majority of the psychological treatment community blame the parents (most of the educational and professional information reads that way)?    How does one navigate the guilt and the system when you know you were not perfect but you also weren't abusive or negligent? 
Logged
Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders
kells76
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 3246



« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2023, 09:56:27 AM »

Hi 4love, good to hear back from you, and good to hear your D is engaged with treatment.

I can give a little info about this question of yours:

Does the majority of the psychological treatment community blame the parents (most of the educational and professional information reads that way)?

Not sure if the majority sees parents as responsible, though that perspective is out there, and because there seem to be both genetic and environmental contributions (nature and nurture), some professionals may focus strongly on one or the other, leading to the impression that BPD is only caused by "nurture" or only caused by "nature".

We do have a couple of discussions on the causes of BPD -- not sure if you've seen them yet, but there's What is the cause of Borderline Personality Disorder? and, more specifically, Can BPD happen without childhood abuse and trauma? -- both in our Psychology questions and answers section.

I know that other parents will be able to touch on this question of yours:

How does one navigate the guilt and the system when you know you were not perfect but you also weren't abusive or negligent? 

better than I can.

Hope that gets the discussion rolling over here, too. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, and thoughts from others.

-kells76
Logged
4love

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: on the verge of estranged
Posts: 16


« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2023, 07:39:51 AM »

Thanks so much for responding Kells 76.  I had read through the links you shared but I went back and reread them again.

Yesterday was a lost day- I wandered to to the edge of the abyss of despair and guilt. I read, reflected, processed, engaged in self-hatred and wallowed in guilt and grief. And I am sure I will do so many, many more times.

Was I a flawed parent- yes- I yelled, engaged in punishments ( if one considers time outs or loss of privileges  punishments) and invalidated. There was definitely inconsistent parenting as my ex and I did not and still do not embrace the same parenting styles. And  yes I need to add helicopter parenting as well. 

Current psych attachment theory and literature leans toward events happening during early childhood as the trigger. Frankly with the exception of helicopter parenting, the above behaviors occurred mostly during dd tween and teen years - as we were desperate to keep her from taking dangerous paths or self imploding. My dd has told me she has many fond memories of her childhood- much less so of her teen years.

I am baffled however- every single parent I know engaged in one or all of those same behaviors yet had different outcomes. Within families some kids aren't damaged by such behaviors and others are.

I am more than willing to be accountable for my behavior. And I am broken hearted that I could have in any way harmed my dd. 

But I am also furious. When she was in preschool her teacher was sensing red flags but she could not pinpoint a solid issue. That began a years long journey ( at this point 2 decades pus) through the system- early screening by the county, .evaluation by Kennedy Kreiger ( John Hopkins), speech therapy, evaluation by occupational therapy, vision therapy, switching to a pediatrician specialist in ADHD,  psychologist, therapeutic high school, etc. , etc. etc.

All along we, the parents, engaged in every way possible to try and help our daughter. At no time during the process did anyone in the system ever identify the true problem, or in any way educate us on our "wrong" parenting. This included the many parent group or family group therapies we attended during her time at a therapeutic high school. 

If there is to be "mea culpa" , the psych community needs to look in the mirror and address their own failures.  Why in God's name should I trust or rely on a system that is content to place blame on me when it has also failed and yet takes no accountability?

From the links you share this is what I believe is very often the case:  "Early caretaking relationships are significantly shaped by the child. This contrasts with the more widely recognized belief that parental interactions significantly shape the child. Thus, the easily upset, needy/fearful, hyperactive child who possesses the predisposing temperaments for BPD will pose special problems for parents. Such a child will benefit from forms of parenting that may not come natural to their parents."

How can these children be identified early on- or how can parent's be educated in the necessary forms of parenting BEFORE problems occur?   If I am not mistaken, the system that should do this,  is the same system that is placing blame on parents for not having the skills.

So yes- I have ended up where I understand I do not trust the system- at all. Will I engage with it- yes. I love dd and want very much to see her grow into a strong self-sufficient woman and thrive. I also want to develop a strong and healthy relationship with my daughter. 

I have found much help and guidance from all of the "Stop Walking on Eggshells" books.  We cannot bear responsibility for things we did not know. We can only reflect, process and adapt. 

I have come to believe that there are people who are gentle souls. They have profound sensitivities that make living in the real world difficult. They are our loved ones.


 


Logged
4love

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: on the verge of estranged
Posts: 16


« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2023, 10:38:23 AM »

To complete my last thought above:  They are our loved ones. And somehow we need to find a way to cherish, protect and support them and ourselves. At present this seems like such a tricky road to navigate.

I am able to look at them separately but I am struggling to put them together.

Myself:  When I made the decision to leave my marriage, I honored a request by friends to seek individual counseling before doing anything. ( My ex refused to participate in couples counseling.). After the 1st session she requested I read the book "The Emotionally Abused Woman". After the 2nd session she requested I read "Codependent No More".   Reading the first was like a light bulb went off in my head- highly likely mother is high functioning BPD.  Reading the second book was like being run over by a mack truck.  I stayed in therapy for over 3 years. I learned a great deal but obviously not enough.

I knew my ex had narcissistic tendencies ( apple did not fall far from the family tree).  I believe my codependent behaviors exacerbated this. And as I am learning more about BPD/ NPD, I am beginning to think that is he has that combo and again my codependency just added to the mix and made everything worse.

Guilt/ trauma:  I am well aware of the traumas my mother, MIL and other family members past and present experienced. An overwhelming majority of the people I have come to know have experienced profoundly negative or traumatic experiences of one nature or another and at varying times in their lives.  Intellectually, I belief that trauma is part of the human experience. And while we can do everything possible to avoid and prevent it sometimes it is inevitable. So then the focus needs to be how to survive, persevere and rise above.

Inconsistent parenting: The tip of the iceberg lies in this. Her father wants her to be happy and pay her own way. I want her to be self sufficient with a priority on a toolbox with tools to get her through inevitable unhappy or difficult times.

For a long time I have been very concerned that she is unable to persevere. And I must deal with the guilt of knowing my behavior did not help and quite likely harmed. And to know that I cannot fix it. I do not trust the system but know it is the only way forward for her to learn the necessary skills to persevere.

And as she works on herself- I must work on me. I have spent hours and hours lost in the threads involving boundaries and validation. I am having trouble differentiating parent/ dependent BPD child and parent/ adult dependent BPD child.  Most of the threads I am reading about boundaries deal with adult relationship not parent/ child relationships. In parenting, limits/ boundaries are used to teach a child acceptable/ non acceptable behavior= in society, in a classroom, towards others etc.

I have become much more successful in setting boundaries with people. With my daughter it is still a work in progress.  This complicated by the fact that she is not self sufficient.  For the moment all is well as the program she is in provides major structure and limits.

One of my biggest struggles is validation. I have not always done this and even when I have- apparently not in the proper way. The thread on validation is extremely informative but many of the responses are geared toward adult romantic relationships.
One of my struggles is validating or responding to totally off the wall comments from my daughter.

I would love to hear any examples of how best to respond to them.

A huge thank you to this forum. As I mentioned above, I have been lost for hours exploring and reading. In fact my house is such a mess that Peanut's Pigpen character would be happy to reside here!   I am very grateful for all of you!  Off to clean!


Logged
InTheWilderness

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 30


« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2023, 12:33:33 AM »

4love,
I understand the desire to figure out what went wrong. We are only 1 month post diagnosis, so I’m early in this. My mother had schizophrenia, and bipolar runs in my family. As a result, I was vigilant in monitoring my kids’ mental health. My youngest was diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia at a young age. He went to counseling; I educated myself and I worked with him. I knew something was off, however. Still, I thought his behaviors were stress related, due to the challenges of having ADHD. He recently got very angry with me for not realizing he had BPD at a younger age. But I’m not a mental health expert! I truly think I did my best. He stopped going to therapy as a teen, his choice. And they don’t diagnose BPD under 18. So, I think it was a failure of me, mental health professionals and my son, in a way.

It sounds like you tried. But you aren’t a mental health professional and took guidance from them.

I recently watched a video by a bpd researcher who diagnoses and treats adolescents. He said his research indicates that 1/3 of his patients had experienced family related trauma. Two thirds did not. I do think genetics plays a huge role. My oldest does not have BPD, yet he was raised in the same family, same parenting. Some kids are primed to be super feelers. I think a parent needs special training to recognize this and provide a more validating environment. I am just learning about BPD; how would I have known to look for the symptoms? More awareness is needed, for mental health professionals as well. BPD is probably under diagnosed. It is stigmatized and relatively ignored as far as serious metal health disorders go.

4love, try not to put so much pressure on yourself. If mental health professionals couldn’t see it, how could you? And if no one is seeing it, how could you have known to change family life to accommodate your child’s special needs?

I’m finding that a large majority of mental health folks have no interest in working with BPD. Can you imagine if most doctors said I don’t work with diabetes? Until more child and adult therapists decide to educate themselves to provide care in this area, kids will slip under the radar and families will suffer.
Logged
4love

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: on the verge of estranged
Posts: 16


« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2023, 10:37:12 AM »

Thank you so much InThe Wilderness.

I have spent much time watching videos of John Gunderson. And he validates much of what you say. The videos have been very helpful in understanding the bias of the mental health community and BPD.  I was really struggling with the mental health world's belief that trauma had to have happened in the early years as the BPD foundation is abandonment. Most enlightening was a talk given by a geneticist in which he discussed studies that indicate genes can be triggered at any time in life. And that it is entirely possible that the surge of powerful hormones during puberty could itself be a trigger.

I am also seeing a very interesting connection in many of the threads here- diagnosis of ADHD/ ADD. My daughter was diagnosed with ADD at 5. Her biggest challenges fall within the executive functions skills. We also thought they were because of ADD. As did all of the mental health and educational  professionals we have dealt with.  I was shocked to see so many of her challenges also fall under the dx of PBD.

It is tragic that much of the mental health community avoids dealing with BPD. Imagine if the mental health/ educational communities would promote DBT, Stop Walking On Eggshells and all of the different skills dealing with BPD with the parents of any child suspected of having ADHD/ ADD or struggling in any way? 

 I wonder how much angst, pain and tragedy could have been avoided and could be prevented.

I have come to grips with my guilt. Though I am sure I will revisit it again.

Your support is greatly appreciated! It helps navigate this roller coaster ride we are all on. 

Logged
InTheWilderness

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 30


« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2023, 10:37:42 AM »

4love,

From the book, I Hate You, Don't Leave me:

"A Swedish study indicated that individuals with a diagnosis of ADHD were almost twenty times more likely to also have a BPD diagnosis than those not diagnosed with ADHD."

The author states there is a fair amount of overlap with ADD and BPD traits. I read so much about ADD, listened to podcasts, consulted therapists, but did not run into anything about this crossover with BPD. If I had, I would have put that in the back of my mind as something to consider, because I knew something was wrong and not explained by ADD. Maybe this was your experience, as well? I had to read the BPD literature to learn about this, when it should be coming from ADD literature too.

And I am so bummed that for all my effort, I missed this. That is what really tears me apart; I wasn't able to help him. I am in the early stages of grief where all this feels so raw. I know I will move through it, but right now I am quite sad and angry.
Logged
4love

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: on the verge of estranged
Posts: 16


« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2023, 07:39:04 AM »

InTheWilderness- YES! This is exactly how I feel. I hadn't realized most of my feelings are part of the grief process.  My dd was diagnosed with ADD at 5. I exhausted every book/resource I could find on the subject  as well as any material available in the Parent Resource Center of our public school system. We even switched pediatricians to one highly recommended by CHAD. Neuropsychologist, psychologist, therapists. And yet I never read or heard about a connection with BPD.

And yes- I am angry. So much could be done and would have been done so much sooner to reduce or maybe even prevent.

I haven't heard from/ spoken with my dd since her transfer to the long term residential treatment to transition program.  Phone and email access is very limited (purposely structured). I have sent multiple cards/notes. Her father ( my ex) has told me I am slotted to have family therapy with her next. Thankfully all I am learning on this site has helped me understand his behavior as well. He called and engaged in FOG to get me to do attend a Family Program in 2 weeks. I had already told him I could not attend and had made arrangements ( airline tickets etc.) for the next Family Program. I held my boundary but was quite triggered- until I thought about FOG.  Sadly this was a SOP in our family.

I am also not sure what I am grieving. I hope my dd knows she has my unconditional love. But I vacillate between being terrified she will want nothing to do with me and/ or she doesn't develop healthier behaviors and for my own mental health I will have to severely limit engagement with her.

A repeated and heart breaking story line throughout these threads. And then I circle back around to -  so much could have done earlier if only we had known.


Logged
river girl

Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 5


« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2023, 01:21:36 PM »

OMG!  This was exactly our experience specifically with behaviors so emblematic of BPD but none of the mental health professionals ever mentioned it. I remember even challenging a couple of them. One was a child psychologist focused on our daughters ADHD, inattentive type. I specifically asked her,”why does she continue to do impulsive things even during the hours that her stimulant is working?  It doesn’t make sense.” And also, “but some of these behaviors are really weird like definitely premeditated. “. Sometimes I think they may have known but didn’t want to tell me. One of her therapists, right out of training, was taken in hook, line and sinker when my daughter painted me as an entirely controlling you know what, even when she told her that if I let her have her phone at all hours without any restrictions (never mind the fact that she engaged with unknown men in sexual conversations etc. and requested they come to our home and pick her up in the middle of the night,) that she wouldn’t have any problems at all. That particular therapist was a low point, seemed to think that I was the only problem and even encouraged her to go live with a friend. My daughter would rage at me for an hour after sessions because her therapist “agreed that I was not the best mom for her.”
She did go live with this other family for 4 days and was supplying her stimulant to her friend’s parents!  So,no, I don’t have a lot of trust anymore.

I fired that therapist and started looking for another. Presently I believe we have one who sees that she at least exhibits BPD traits.

I do have to shout out our pediatric nurse practitioner who called it immediately. When our daughter was 13, she left our house in the middle of the night to hang out with ppl she met on Snapchat. When I called our nurse practitioner for advice to discuss , she said,” I don’t know exactly why she would do that, but it could be emerging BPD.”  This is the practitioner who was treating her ADHD. She knew!  But then the mental health professionals assured me “medical providers don’t have the training to recognize mental health disorders.” 

When I think of it now, I really feel kind of sick.  And I’m upset with myself for not pushing harder but what do I know?  I only know that our daughter was hurting and so vulnerable and how to keep her safe from herself.?  Sorry to hear it’s common.
Logged
zachira
Ambassador
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Sibling
Posts: 3236


« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2023, 01:57:43 PM »

My large extended family has many disordered people, including many people with disorders like BPD, NPD, and Aspergers. Heredity does play a big part in what kind of child you have and how he/she will turn out. My family members with BPD, have had out of control meltdowns throughout their lives with zero perspective on how their behaviors affect others, and act as if the meltdowns never happened. The genes a child inherits can matter as much if not more than the family environment a child grows up in. Bad parenting is not always the cause of a child having ongoing serious mental health problems. I know one family with numerous children, well know for the children's and parents' fine citizenship and kindness to to others, with the exception of one child. This child went to prison as an adult much to the shock of others in the community who often referred to the parents as the best parents in town.
My heart goes out to you knowing how discouraged you are with all the problems with your daughter and with everything you are doing to help her. When is enough enough and time to put yourself first? There is no good answer here, or right or wrong answer. Do what feels right for you, consistent with your values, what your mental and physical health can cope with, and what will help you daughter to be safe when you can no longer help her which could be now or some later date.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 02:13:19 PM by zachira » Logged

Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!