The forging of The Path

[Depression = 72% of members]

After chatting a bit more, i threw out a flirtatious message.
She ignored it, and I asked "too soon"
She said "Yes, Im just trying to talk civilly, I can't go there"
I said Ok, No problem, then sent the below message. to which she has read, but not replied to.

"I will not be pursuing, firstly because I respect your wishes, and I am glad we are talking and wanted to be civil with you, in the hopes we can maybe eventually be a thing, even if quietly for a while. Secondly, I want to be wanted back, if you're feelings on this change, I'll be here, but I can't not have feelings and attraction for you.
This is all well meaning, I'm just trying to communicate my feelings.
And that's all I have to say about that. I'd like to just keep chatting about fun stuff rather than dwell on this, I just wanted to let you know how I felt"

[OKrunch]

After chatting a bit more, i threw out a flirtatious message.
She ignored it, and I asked "too soon"
She said "Yes, Im just trying to talk civilly, I can't go there"
I said Ok, No problem, then sent the below message. to which she has read, but not replied to.

"I will not be pursuing, firstly because I respect your wishes, and I am glad we are talking and wanted to be civil with you, in the hopes we can maybe eventually be a thing, even if quietly for a while. Secondly, I want to be wanted back, if you're feelings on this change, I'll be here, but I can't not have feelings and attraction for you.
This is all well meaning, I'm just trying to communicate my feelings.
And that's all I have to say about that. I'd like to just keep chatting about fun stuff rather than dwell on this, I just wanted to let you know how I felt"

[Turkish]

You've done so. She knows though she likely already knew. Even in a non BPD relationship, repeatedly doing this is off-putting.

[i-need-love]

You terribly miss this wonderful person that loved you crazy like no one else had done before. But I'm afraid this particular person is gone, it existed only for a moment. I might be wrong, but I think she just lives off her feelings which just come and go, and which she can hardly control at will. She only knows that new people might bring new wonderful emotions even if just for a moment, but she's likely unable and maybe even unwilling to try and stir up those feelings which have simply dried up and are gone. She misses those wonderful moments, but they are now gone, and she's back again in her painful reality. I wouldn't say she hates you, but I'd guess that her fascination with you has diminished from the love-bombing 100% to some much lower level, like 10% or 20% or whatever, and she herself cannot help it. Her emptiness and pain have taken over again and so she probably has to look for someone else to soothe them just for a moment. For some reason the honeymoon had come to an end: she hates it's gone, you hate it's gone, but you don't want to let it go, while she may have already come to terms with that reality. She's probably largely driven by her feelings which she cannot control. First, the child is absolutely fascinated and absorbed by her new toy and she really just absolutely loves it. Her fascination and love are so real. But as the time goes by she somehow looses her interest in her favourinte toy and she cannot control it. Life becomes less colourful for her and in order to make her happy again she believes she just needs a new toy. I might be wrong, but I think that's what happened to you, to me, to all of us. They didn't mean to hurt us, though they most likely knew they eventually would. But they feel they cannot help what they are doing. They are driven by both empiness and painful feelings, and they dream about happiness and stability they believe all other people have. They hurt people, but I think they cannot help it. My friend said that at the end of each relationship "there is just NOTHING there", so it was never hard for her to leave – from what I saw happen with her previous relationship it was not exactly the case with all feelings: she struggled initially, she missed her lover a bit, she was attached to him a bit, she valued him a bit, she granted him some good qualities, but she definitely didn't want a future with him, cos he no longer numbed her emptiness and pain, and the initial fascination with him was just totally gone. She was kind of sorry for him, but she had to keep on moving. That's all. Her fascination and love for you were her real feelings, but now they are just largely gone for some reason unknown to her. Now she feels just growing emptiness and pain and has to do something about that. Maybe a new guy is temporarily filling the gap. Seems like to BPDs relationships are like drugs or alcohol they take in to numb the pain and emptiness which are killing them on the inside. Drugs and alcohol do their work for a time, but then their effect simply wears off and BPDs start looking for a new dose.

Just like with any other person, you cannot force anyone to love you. You need to come to terms with this sad truth. But I believe there's Someone who really cares. You just need to find and discover that deep and stable love that each one of us so desperately needs.

[OKrunch]

Well I am in "Chiller Mode"
I am not reaching out, and when she does, my answers are polite but brief.

She has begun sending photos from her mini-vacation with her daughter.
Still not entirely sure why. She has established that she has not interest in persuing things romantically right now.
I have told her I cannot do platonic.
So it all seems...contradictory.

Im not doing the friendzone thing.
She has tried this before and I shut it down,.

[Pook075]

Well I am in "Chiller Mode"
I am not reaching out, and when she does, my answers are polite but brief.

She has begun sending photos from her mini-vacation with her daughter.
Still not entirely sure why. She has established that she has not interest in persuing things romantically right now.
I have told her I cannot do platonic.
So it all seems...contradictory.

Im not doing the friendzone thing.
She has tried this before and I shut it down,.

Friends first.  Then you see what happens.  She has some interest...that's the only reason to reach out.  Just take it slow, let her define the pace, and enjoy just getting to know each other again.

Remember, the friend zone is safe.  The friend zone is your friend.  If you try to force your way out of that, she's gone.

[OKrunch]

Friends first.  Then you see what happens.  She has some interest...that's the only reason to reach out.  Just take it slow, let her define the pace, and enjoy just getting to know each other again.

Remember, the friend zone is safe.  The friend zone is your friend.  If you try to force your way out of that, she's gone.

Pook, I don't disagree with you, but at the same time, I do.
Im trying to be paitent, but I've been burned by playing the "Orbiting" game with her before.

I am challenged here, between my Self Respect and Moving On vs. Waiting for her, and trying to work around the disorder.

1 of 2 things is happening right now, and that makes it very hard to choose the right course of action.

1.) She is legit starting to miss me, regret her descisions, and is truly focused on herself and her daughter. The slow trickle of contact we've had has been increasing, and "rushing" has been a problem for us in the past. She told me her relationship "Failed" and it may have, and she may just be waiting for the right time to extricate herself from that scenario.
if this above paragraph is what is happening, then it behooves me to be paitent, and caring and to wait for the time to be right. Basically everything you said above Pook.

2.) The other scenario is that, she is using me for emotional validation. She has somebody else in her life, but just like in Jan, or during our first breakup, the replacement she has found is not emotionally or intellectually stimulating, and she ends up orbiting back to me to fulfill those needs. She has no intetion of getting bac together, and is satisfyed knowing I am here, an option and she can keep me on the back burner, while still remaining with her BF, or continuing to date until she finds something sufficiantly new and shiney. Even if this is a subconcious act, it is still a malicious one, and takes advantage of my feelings, and our past, so she can get what she wants.
If THIS is the actual scenario, I have no other choice but to leave quietly, and stop responding to her messages. For my own health and growth.

The fact remains, there are things she has been dishonest about, recently.
However the contact continues and is increasing.
She has not said anything that would indicate we will be hanging out more often, or that her conversation has not gotten any more flirtatious, close or romantic.

I'm truly at a loss as to how to proceed here.
While I am fine to be paitent and show her Im in it for the long haul (for the 3rd time...)
If the 2nd scenario is closer to the truth of the situation, all I would be doing is furthering my pain and extending my period of healing.

Any advice would be much appreiated.
As the Clash once said, Should I Stay or Should I Go?
If i stay there will be trouble, and if i go it could be double.

[cranmango]

OK—been following your journey for a while. I am with you, my friend.

You describe two possible explanations for her behavior. What if it’s both?

The pieces might not fit together. There might not be a coherent whole. There might not be a singular motivation for her behavior, or a single trajectory for the steps ahead. It just might be chaos. It might be her trying to survive the storm inside her, one moment at a time.

I think that’s true of my ex. I could never see it when I was in that storm with her. I’m starting to see it now.

[Pook075]

I agree with Cranmango, BPD and low self esteem sort of go hand in hand.  My wife has zero self esteem and it leads to her always gravitating towards whoever will give the most validation- and that could be our kids, her mom, whatever.  I don't think they're looking for sex and romance as much as that genuine connection with another human where it's safe to love and be loved. 

I see the same in my BPD daughter, she always has a favorite person that she latches onto.  And sometimes I'm like, "What the heck?  That person is a complete loser- why them?"  Who knows why, but they fill a need and it feels healthy.

Like Cranmango said, I think it's most likely both your scenarios combined.  I'm not saying she's seeing someone else right now, and I'm not saying you should try to get back with her.  I'm telling you, if you push it, she'll run for the hills.  That's just how it goes.  Like I shared with my wife and daughter though, your ex is seeking emotional validation and she's coming to you for it.  That's a very good sign if that's what you also want, to connect emotionally once again and just be there for each other.

What's it really mean?  She's lonely and she trusts you with her thoughts and feelings.  It means exactly that, no more and no less.  How you respond will determine where it goes from here, how comfortable she'll get around you again.  Just keep doing what you're doing- honesty, fair boundaries, compassion.  See where it leads.

Now, if you're starting to have serious feelings for her and you're wanting to jump back in, then maybe that's not healthy at this time because you know the patterns.  That's the only reason I'd tell you to back off at this time.  As long as you realize her intentions are somewhat mysterious and you're okay with friendship for now, this is not a bad thing at all for either of you.

[OKrunch]

Now, if you're starting to have serious feelings for her and you're wanting to jump back in, then maybe that's not healthy at this time because you know the patterns.  That's the only reason I'd tell you to back off at this time.  As long as you realize her intentions are somewhat mysterious and you're okay with friendship for now, this is not a bad thing at all for either of you.

Pook, thats just it. I am still very very much in love with this woman, and feeling like she views me as "Bad History" is super super hard to swallow.
She sent me photos from her trip, at Niagara, (a place sentimental to her and I) and seeing photos of her daughter and her, my brains first thought is "Ahh my lovely fiance and step daughter! I love them so much"
Then my brain goes..."Oh...right. Thats gone"

And that is hard to stomach.

I agree that she is probably herself, confused.
After all, how many times has she painted me black, said she hates me and never wants to see me again.
Yet her we are. Slowly orbiting closer again.

Its so damn confusing.

[cranmango]

Damn confusing, indeed. If you are confused by her behavior, that's a strong sign that she's confused, too. Pointing out the inconsistencies of her behavior will likely only sour things.

You being consistent in your words and actions might help her achieve a bit more stability. A port in a storm.

But you also know full well by now that the path won't be linear. There will be ups, downs, and loop de loops.

[OKrunch]

Damn confusing, indeed. If you are confused by her behavior, that's a strong sign that she's confused, too. Pointing out the inconsistencies of her behavior will likely only sour things.

You being consistent in your words and actions might help her achieve a bit more stability. A port in a storm.

But you also know full well by now that the path won't be linear. There will be ups, downs, and loop de loops.

She is continuing to send pictures of sentemental things from her trip. References to our past trips.
Nothing resembling lovey dovey anything, but its more frequent, and more personal.
the contact of late has me hyped up, and its bound to make me make rash descisions.
I am chilling out.

[Pook075]

She is continuing to send pictures of sentemental things from her trip. References to our past trips.
Nothing resembling lovey dovey anything, but its more frequent, and more personal.
the contact of late has me hyped up, and its bound to make me make rash descisions.
I am chilling out.

My advice?  Go on a date with one of your recent new friends.  Put this to the side for a day or two, and maybe try to get grounded once again in the "it's over" mindset.  I get what you're saying, I really do, my wife would reach out for just about anything and the wheels in my mind would start turning.  I'd think, "Maybe this could lead to that, and then we'd..."

That's such a toxic way of thinking because life is not about "what if's", it's about the present and what's right in front of us.

Buddy, if you want to talk to her, then talk.  If it's too tough, then it's okay to say that too.  Just be sure you mean it once you put up that boundary.  You have a really, really good thing right now with healthy conversation and fond memories.  She knows what she's doing, bringing up Niagara and stuff like that.  She knows you'll make the connection because she's making it too.

What's it mean?  I have absolutely no idea, and she probably doesn't know either.  She misses you but doesn't want you back, because taking you back could mean things get bad and her heart gets broken again.  Yet she's still reaching out, still letting you in without all the anger and venom.  Honestly, I'm proud of her and I don't even know her.  But I'm really proud of you as well.

Just keep doing what you're doing, it's all good stuff brother.  I'll continue to pray for you guys.

[OKrunch]

fter some spuratic contact throughout the weekend, I asked her this morning if she wanted to catch up this coming weekend so she could tell me about the trip

Her response: "I'm not sure about this weekend. I'm still hesitant to become close, it's not exactly easy. I don't want to go into a direction that would lead you to think we could even get into a secret relationship of some kind. I hope you understand maybe I shouldn't have come over to catch up."

My Response: "No problem, if you want to hang out let me know. If not it's no biggie. Same with chatting, I only want those things if you chose it. I don't want a secret anything LOL. Glad you had a good time"

She said "thanks for understanding, I Don't know if i can do hang outs at this time. I am having a hard time again, Im working through it, and I am on a new med to help with my constant state of "fight or flight" and hyper vigilance. Hoping it helps with my nightmares."

So, she never outright says NO, its always "Not now" or "Maybe" or "ill think about it" I believe she is still "in a relationship" on facebook, i havent checked in ages. So she wants to be able to talk online, and be friendly, but is still hiding from hanging out in person. Well, im not inititing conversation. I will continue to reply only. So the level of contact is strictly up to her. Still seems like she is keeping me on the back burner.

[Pook075]

fter some spuratic contact throughout the weekend, I asked her this morning if she wanted to catch up this coming weekend so she could tell me about the trip

Her response: "I'm not sure about this weekend. I'm still hesitant to become close, it's not exactly easy. I don't want to go into a direction that would lead you to think we could even get into a secret relationship of some kind. I hope you understand maybe I shouldn't have come over to catch up."

My Response: "No problem, if you want to hang out let me know. If not it's no biggie. Same with chatting, I only want those things if you chose it. I don't want a secret anything LOL. Glad you had a good time"

She said "thanks for understanding, I Don't know if i can do hang outs at this time. I am having a hard time again, Im working through it, and I am on a new med to help with my constant state of "fight or flight" and hyper vigilance. Hoping it helps with my nightmares."

So, she never outright says NO, its always "Not now" or "Maybe" or "ill think about it" I believe she is still "in a relationship" on facebook, i havent checked in ages. So she wants to be able to talk online, and be friendly, but is still hiding from hanging out in person. Well, im not inititing conversation. I will continue to reply only. So the level of contact is strictly up to her. Still seems like she is keeping me on the back burner.

Good stuff brother!  Very good stuff and I continue to be your biggest fan.  I shot you a PM as well since I'll be away for a few weeks.  Keep up the good work!

[OKrunch]

Good stuff brother!  Very good stuff and I continue to be your biggest fan.  I shot you a PM as well since I'll be away for a few weeks.  Keep up the good work!

Im done playing games. I am going back into full no contact. She is stringing me along and only keeping me as close as she wants me. I am only here to serve as a second therapist and an emotional tampon.
I am interesting to talk to, and she doesnt get intellectual stimulation from other people.

Well, Im done. Im out. Seek it elsewhere.

I know my value, I know my worth.
I am worth being chosen, and consistantly.
Im done hoping for scraps.

Goodbye, for good and all this time. GOOD. BYE.

[once removed]

what happened?

[OKrunch]

what happened?

I am continually lied to, given just enough contact to seemingly keep me interested, but at arms length.
She is still in a relationship, and lied to me about it without me even asking.

Most importantly, this whole thing is so one sided. As i mentioned a few posts back, she only ever talks about her stuff, never asks about my son, or how I am doing.
She values me for our intellectual connection, which she has verbally mentioned not being able to find elsewhere.

I am here for her to be able to text, and get supportive loving responses back. I am here to prop her up when she is feeling down, and then be put back in my box on the shelf.
She only wants me for what she needs me for, and she very clearly does not care how it might effect me.
She does the same with the kids. She has gotten my sons hopes up in the past only to back off again. She did this around Christmas.
I believe this is the same reason she reached out near her birthday. She needs to feel
I was brought back into her vicinity in January because she was lonely, then as soon as she found something new, I was villified and tossed again.

Short Answer to your question Once Removed,
She uses me, she only reaches out when she needs something, she leads me on and strings me along (while presenting the illusion that shes activley trying to AVOID doing these things. She has to have a self percived clean concious after all) , and the whole thing is one sided, selfish and inconsiderate.
Real Couples choose eachother, I have chosen her and waited for years. She has played chase and catch, highschool drama games.
Im done with that.
She can choose me if she wants, but she hasn't and isn't.
So I am not putting my heart on the table to be smashed again, if she wants it, she will have to earn it.

[OKrunch]

ME: Its exactly what she intended. I had been doing pretty good in no contact. things were improving. then she had to dangle the carrot, then yank it away, and now I am back to square one on the dopamine addiction. I was just staring at my phone, that shows her online, waiting for a message. But then i remebered. She doesnt need anything right now. She doesn't care. I am stronger. I have shown that. She will cave again and im Effing ignoring it next time

THERAPIST: That is probably a good idea. I feel like you had made a lot of progress and you were feeling much better and stronger and then she popped up again. Hopefully you aren't back at full square one and can rebound quickly. You deserve someone who chooses you consistently, and not just when they need something or someone to "vent" to.

ME: Thats why i mentioned in my last messages to her that "I dont want to have to hide or be secret" and I also said " I cannot be platonic", and lastly, i said "I know if you truly want to see and speak to me, you will seek it out" I think she expected me to text everyday now that that door is open, Here is what I thought about all day, and I will say to her if I need to.
"If you wanted to see me, i know you'd make time to do so. Youve done so in the past. Same thing with reaching out to chat. If you really really WANTED to talk to me, you would, regularly. I know what it looks and feels like when you want and love me, and this isnt it. I am not going to chase what doesnt reciprocate my feelings. If thats ever the case again for you, give me a call, if not, I hope your life is peaceful. Farewell."


P.S.  - It is worth mentioning that that last conversation her and I had ended amicably and things were fine. There was no fight or blowout. I am just sick of being strung along, being told "maybe" and lied to about why she is keeping the fact that were talking hidden.

[OKrunch]

Well, after some spuratic and mostly hollow conversation, i reiterated to her that Im not interested in friendship, (being that she never says NO, just "i dont think so" or "I am not sure") I told her "I know you said you were unsure about hanging out, let me know if you decide you want to. Otherwise I hope you enjoy the weather with the dogs before it gets rainy out this weekend. Have a nice June. Cya later" She just said "I hope you enjoy the weather too". That, is all the answer i needed. I had to put it out there one last time. Back into full blown no contact. Deleted her contact info, deleted our conversation thread.

I am stepping back from all of this.
I will keep in touch via email with therapist.

Ill come back here in a month or two and drop an update.
Im done living in the past.

I hope you all have a great start to summer, peace and love to you all.

[OKrunch]

I had considered sending one last "Im done, and I am not going to be waiting around on the sidelines" type of boundary text, because I dont really want her to continue thinking I am excitedly waiting to hear from her.

My therapist said silence will say this best, and I am going to heed her advice,

but Man, let me tell you, its very hard not to just flat out tell her I am angry, and that I am no longer her 2nd option.

[SinisterComplex]

I had considered sending one last "Im done, and I am not going to be waiting around on the sidelines" type of boundary text, because I dont really want her to continue thinking I am excitedly waiting to hear from her.

My therapist said silence will say this best, and I am going to heed her advice,

but Man, let me tell you, its very hard not to just flat out tell her I am angry, and that I am no longer her 2nd option.

Silence speaks volumes. By you responding in anger you give up your power and make yourself look bad. She wins. Your therapist is providing you sage advice here so definitely heed her advice and fight back your impulses.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[OKrunch]

Silence speaks volumes. By you responding in anger you give up your power and make yourself look bad. She wins. Your therapist is providing you sage advice here so definitely heed her advice and fight back your impulses.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

I agree, its the longer harder path.
I wouldnt respond in anger persay, but I wanted to tell her I am not waiting around as a second option.
I don't like the idea of her knowing and continuing to think that I am just waiting for her and will be available at her beck and call. So therefore the desire to reach out and say this is strong. I feel like its unjust to go and "let her get away" with treating me like this in January, and again two weeks ago (although we didnt sleep together like we did in Jan)
I am not doing so, as despite it being the longer harder path, I do agree with what you say here.

[SinisterComplex]

I agree, its the longer harder path.
I wouldnt respond in anger persay, but I wanted to tell her I am not waiting around as a second option.
I don't like the idea of her knowing and continuing to think that I am just waiting for her and will be available at her beck and call. So therefore the desire to reach out and say this is strong. I feel like its unjust to go and "let her get away" with treating me like this in January, and again two weeks ago (although we didnt sleep together like we did in Jan)
I am not doing so, as despite it being the longer harder path, I do agree with what you say here.

She isn't getting away with anything. You are just tired of the BS  and ready to grow and move forward. So you move on. In a sense the best revenge is living well and doing well without her. Focus on that. At some point the guilt and shame will get her, but you will never know about it. You are making the wise decision to not be around for it and continuing to be an emotional tampon.

For the record...it only appears on the surface to be the longer harder path right now. If you just Nike it and focus on YOU it becomes the easy path.

Keep your head up, keep doing the work and you will end up a better, stronger version of yourself. I have faith in you.

Be kind to you and take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[OKrunch]

She isn't getting away with anything. You are just tired of the BS  and ready to grow and move forward. So you move on. In a sense the best revenge is living well and doing well without her. Focus on that. At some point the guilt and shame will get her, but you will never know about it. You are making the wise decision to not be around for it and continuing to be an emotional tampon.

For the record...it only appears on the surface to be the longer harder path right now. If you just Nike it and focus on YOU it becomes the easy path.

Keep your head up, keep doing the work and you will end up a better, stronger version of yourself. I have faith in you.

Be kind to you and take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

In fighting back the wave of anger right now.
Im pretty effing angry, and I really really really want to just tell her she is selfish and cruel.
Its distracting me from being able to enjoy a social event, im sick of being angry and feeling hurt.
I feel betrayed, lied to and played with.
How do you just let that lie? and not speak the truth to the perpetrator?

[once removed]

How do you just let that lie? and not speak the truth to the perpetrator?

you test it, with perspective.

the advice youve gotten with regard to trying to reconcile has been the same since the beginning: if you want a shot at this, you are going to have to play the long game.

the message youve been given from her (and, frankly, the same message you gave her) has been the same since the beginning: we arent getting back together.

the long game is never, and was never going to be easy, and there are no guarantees.

shes in a relationship. thats going to have to play out. there is no guarantee that it would lead to getting back together, even if it ended today. there is no guarantee as to how long that will take. she told you that the relationship was on the rocks, but that sounds more like the confusion and uncertainty of a new relationship than lying to you or leading you on (though probably inappropriate of her to confide in you!).

there is a long, painful history between the two of you, one that affected her daughter, at least, a great deal.

there are a lot of fond feelings between the two of you, but they are immensely complicated, and they are mixed.

it seems (correct me if im wrong) that most of your anger and frustration seem to stem from your expectations here, of being on the path to reconciliation, and the resulting anxiety when shes not actively or consistently working toward that path.

that is fair enough. its a real tough and unenviable position. no one would blame you for walking away from it. no one would blame you for taking the position that friendship isnt a possibility.

but i dont think that blowing things up or forcing her hand is serving you.

a friendship where she is actively seeking you out, wanting to hang out, reminisce, even one where she is regularly inquiring about your life, im not sure that that is realistic. i am friends with a few of my exes. in no case do i have that kind of relationship with any of them. we catch up, maybe once or twice a year. in one case, i used to go to her halloween party once a year. our conversations are not deep, and we usually share very little beyond surface things about our lives. i am not a priority to them. they are not a priority to me. i would say the relationships enrich my life, but they are as minor a part of it as they could be.

now, you say friendship is a non starter. it would have been for me too. in all cases, those friendships developed years after the breakup. you say the relationship is shallow, and unfulfilling for you. that shes self centered, talks about herself, doesnt ask about you, doesnt make the effort to see you. i would ask myself why, if thats the case, you still want to talk to her, see her, and get back with her, but all of those things are valid reasons to give up on or walk away from a friendship.

it is, also, what playing the long game is probably going to look like. long. inconsistent. likely painful. it will not go according to expectations or ideals. the point is to use the time to: get her out of your day to day life, grieve the old relationship completely, get the relationship, such as it is, on a healthier trajectory, and ideally, find yourselves at the right place at the right time at some point down the road, with a very new game plan.

it would require commitment, and a steady hand. it would require you to see this from her perspective, without being reactive. it would require you to let her lead, and to set the pace.

i dont have the sense that shes doing anything malicious here, or trying to use you, or trying to lead you on. but i can see how her actions, coupled with your expectations, are painful, and confusing.

she clearly still has feelings for you. shes also apprehensive about those feelings. those feelings come with a great deal of baggage. when you force her hand, and basically tell her "choose me or im walking away", youre resurfacing that baggage, backing her into a corner, and it is human nature that she will balk every time.

because in the mean time, shes testing this new relationship out. new relationships are exciting. they are all consuming. they are the top priority, at least for a while. she may have doubts about it, but for whatever feelings she has for you, she has more reason to doubt or be uncertain of those. a new relationship is safer. newer. fresher. free of baggage. its easier, and frankly, its usually wiser.

you will notice that when youre cool and even keeled, when youre safe and pressure free, her feelings are warmer. she seeks you out. she wants to reminisce. when you push for more, she pulls back, you feel wounded, and, ultimately, the dance perpetuates.

i think my point here OKrunch, is to stop perpetuating the dance. at this point, all it is doing is dragging out the breakup, and ultimately hurting both of you.

walking away completely is a valid option. it doesnt seem like its what you really want to do, although that doesnt mean its the wrong choice. sometimes the best choices for our mental health are the hardest.

waiting her out is a valid option. it doesnt have a high success rate, and it requires a lot of commitment and emotional balancing to maximize what chances it does have.

detaching with grace is also an option. it basically means leaving the door open, but not investing, and generally, slowly closing that door.

these are all different options at your disposal. i think the point is to work to get centered, and, with help, work to stay there and act from that place. right now, you are mostly riding the whims of confusion - yours and hers - and shes probably even more confused than you are.

[OKrunch]

you test it, with perspective.

the advice youve gotten with regard to trying to reconcile has been the same since the beginning: if you want a shot at this, you are going to have to play the long game.

the message youve been given from her (and, frankly, the same message you gave her) has been the same since the beginning: we arent getting back together.

the long game is never, and was never going to be easy, and there are no guarantees.

shes in a relationship. thats going to have to play out. there is no guarantee that it would lead to getting back together, even if it ended today. there is no guarantee as to how long that will take. she told you that the relationship was on the rocks, but that sounds more like the confusion and uncertainty of a new relationship than lying to you or leading you on (though probably inappropriate of her to confide in you!).
Well, I agree on the long road. It was something i realized a long time ago. this is not going to be a short journey. I have always felt like our "Story isn't over". I knew what that felt like after my divorce, and this just...keeps going.
So, her relationship DID end recently, that is now known. However her and I are back in a "limited to no contact" situation it would seem. She is figuring herself out.

there is a long, painful history between the two of you, one that affected her daughter, at least, a great deal.

there are a lot of fond feelings between the two of you, but they are immensely complicated, and they are mixed.

it seems (correct me if im wrong) that most of your anger and frustration seem to stem from your expectations here, of being on the path to reconciliation, and the resulting anxiety when shes not actively or consistently working toward that path.

that is fair enough. its a real tough and unenviable position. no one would blame you for walking away from it. no one would blame you for taking the position that friendship isnt a possibility.

but i dont think that blowing things up or forcing her hand is serving you.
I've never wanted to force her hand, it's just the constant vagueness and hot/cold tendancies that are so confusing and often hurtful. I want her to be happy, and if that means not having me in her life, i accept that. Its not what id prefer, but if its what must be, then so be it. I just want a clear answer, a clear path.

a friendship where she is actively seeking you out, wanting to hang out, reminisce, even one where she is regularly inquiring about your life, im not sure that that is realistic. i am friends with a few of my exes. in no case do i have that kind of relationship with any of them. we catch up, maybe once or twice a year. in one case, i used to go to her halloween party once a year. our conversations are not deep, and we usually share very little beyond surface things about our lives. i am not a priority to them. they are not a priority to me. i would say the relationships enrich my life, but they are as minor a part of it as they could be.

now, you say friendship is a non starter. it would have been for me too. in all cases, those friendships developed years after the breakup. you say the relationship is shallow, and unfulfilling for you. that shes self centered, talks about herself, doesnt ask about you, doesnt make the effort to see you. i would ask myself why, if thats the case, you still want to talk to her, see her, and get back with her, but all of those things are valid reasons to give up on or walk away from a friendship.

it is, also, what playing the long game is probably going to look like. long. inconsistent. likely painful. it will not go according to expectations or ideals. the point is to use the time to: get her out of your day to day life, grieve the old relationship completely, get the relationship, such as it is, on a healthier trajectory, and ideally, find yourselves at the right place at the right time at some point down the road, with a very new game plan.

it would require commitment, and a steady hand. it would require you to see this from her perspective, without being reactive. it would require you to let her lead, and to set the pace.
That is what I am doing now. She will do what she will do. I don't want pity attention, If she truly WANTS to spend time with me, she will. I have to remeber, she is like an elememental, seasonal cat. She only comes to you, and will not be chased.

i dont have the sense that shes doing anything malicious here, or trying to use you, or trying to lead you on. but i can see how her actions, coupled with your expectations, are painful, and confusing.
Again I agree, in the throws of my emotions, it is easy to assume she is being malicious, but I know thats not who she is. Its all defense mechanism stuff. Its really unfortunate and I pity that she has to live like that. She always scared, and expecting pain. It dilutes any joy in her life.

she clearly still has feelings for you. shes also apprehensive about those feelings. those feelings come with a great deal of baggage. when you force her hand, and basically tell her "choose me or im walking away", youre resurfacing that baggage, backing her into a corner, and it is human nature that she will balk every time.
Engulfment is a hell of a thing. SHE IS A CAT.

because in the mean time, shes testing this new relationship out. new relationships are exciting. they are all consuming. they are the top priority, at least for a while. she may have doubts about it, but for whatever feelings she has for you, she has more reason to doubt or be uncertain of those. a new relationship is safer. newer. fresher. free of baggage. its easier, and frankly, its usually wiser.
That is over now, and i honestly think she feels more broken because of it. She said "Im single, and im going to stay that way, im hopless and broken"

you will notice that when youre cool and even keeled, when youre safe and pressure free, her feelings are warmer. she seeks you out. she wants to reminisce. when you push for more, she pulls back, you feel wounded, and, ultimately, the dance perpetuates.

i think my point here OKrunch, is to stop perpetuating the dance. at this point, all it is doing is dragging out the breakup, and ultimately hurting both of you.

walking away completely is a valid option. it doesnt seem like its what you really want to do, although that doesnt mean its the wrong choice. sometimes the best choices for our mental health are the hardest.

waiting her out is a valid option. it doesnt have a high success rate, and it requires a lot of commitment and emotional balancing to maximize what chances it does have.

detaching with grace is also an option. it basically means leaving the door open, but not investing, and generally, slowly closing that door.

these are all different options at your disposal. i think the point is to work to get centered, and, with help, work to stay there and act from that place. right now, you are mostly riding the whims of confusion - yours and hers - and shes probably even more confused than you are.

I got caught up in my emotions after seeing her in person for the first time since Feb. I need to reel myself back in when were in touch.
Her exact words - "OKrunch, You dont feel ANYTHING halfway"
and she is right.
We are both very heart-on-our sleeves type people, both blunt and vocal.
I need to go back to being the Mountain. Ever present, never moving, sotic, solid and implacable.

[OKrunch]

Welp,
We ended up having another conversation this morning. She reached out to me to tell me that she had been quiet for the past few days because she had been thinking about things, and said that we shouldn't talk anymore. She went on to say that she's in a very introspective mode, she is single and staying that way according to her. I think she's upset that yet another relationship failed. She specifically mentioned the fact that anytime anyone gets close she freaks out and bails. So as with similar recent conversations she is still saying a lot of self-aware things. She is still on her journey and figuring herself out. I didn't say much myself, I listened and let her say what she wanted to say. I told her I was pretty much in the same spot as before, that I have reached a point of acceptance if we do not talk, I can understand if we never speak again, and I told her that I'm always here if she wants to reach out. So I guess I'm just kind of keeping the door open and doing my own thing. This is yet another thing that reinforces the fact that I cannot have any hope or investment in any of this. So it's a pretty mutually agreed upon thing as far as no contact is concerned right now. We have a lot of important anniversary dates and sentimental dates in our relationship past coming up at the end of June and into july. I do think those will affect her.

Simply put as I said, I am back to being a mountain. I am here I'm doing my own thing and existing in enjoying my own life. Her happiness is up to her, as well as her participation in my life.

It seems so basic of a statement, but literally it all boils down to this. It is what it is

[OKrunch]

Another conversation, another attempt at control and guilt tripping.
Apparently asking once, to hang out, after she had recently come to do so, was "being way too pushy"

I simply said, "Im sorry you feel that way, but I disagree. Have a splendid summer, goodbye"

She replied "I don't know why you bother to say goodbye, we both know is just dramatic exaggeration on your part."

SO apparently she thinks im incapable of seperation, and is willing to mock me about it.
So, ill enjoy proving that one wrong.

[OKrunch]

I've been doing some thinking, about me and not her. Well at least not directly, and I think really what it boils down to is finality.

I am legitimately afraid that we will never talk again. I fear completely disconnecting forever 100%. I'm afraid of her getting married and being happy with somebody else. I'm afraid of being alone.



My ego does not take the rejection well. We shared so much so it literally doesn't compute in my head that anyone should be able to just walk away from that, let alone multiple times. Not to mention the games and all the BS afterwards.



How do I overcome the fear of never speaking to her again? Of knowing that the love of my life didn't work, and this was after I got divorced.  Knowing that I tried literally everything, and she just doesn't care. I'm just afraid of it being completely over.

If I am sitting here logically thinking to myself that I'm done with all of this bull crap games, why do I still fear to lose it?
I dont want it but I dont want to lose it. It makes no sense.

I don't want to argue with her I don't want to fight with her I don't want to deal with any of her head games and I do not want to be used or second choice. So why do I fear giving up on her? Why do I shrink away every time I go to block her? Even though she has me blocked on everything. She has shown me time and time and time and time again how worthless I am to her, so why do I fear it being Dead Forever, even though I legit want to forget I ever met her?

[Turkish]

Diving into the root of your fears likely takes a lot of introspection, maybe into your FOO. As a retired moderator used to quip, "all roads lead to PSI." The Parent, Sibling, In-law board.

As for the ruminations, my former therapist told me that as much as I disagreed what the mother of our children was doing, and he was not a fan especially after she lied to him and abandoned couples' counseling, "she's an independent entity, free to make her own choices, no matter how unwise you view them." I knew what he was saying, but it took me a long time afterwards to realize what he was saying, emotionally on my side.