Boundaries and not taking BPD spouse insults personally

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I am very anxious about the custody. My wife is a good mother. Like all parent partners we have different approaches. She says she believes I do not have the ability to foster my daughters’ emotional needs through adolescence. I cannot disagree more.

It's normal to be anxious. It would be weird if you didn't have these doubts especially given what you've been through and are enduring every day.  

What is it you specifically worry will happen with custody?

What is your relationship like with your kids? Have they seen your wife be violent with you or overheard the way she talks to you?

What is your best guess for what your wife would do when served divorce papers?

It's ok to not feel clear on goals. That's not a sign of any deficit on your part, it's a sign you're likely beaten down and wondering which way is up. These questions -- to stay or leave -- for some of us they're the most difficult decisions we've had to make. It can be daunting to try and puzzle all of that together while struggling to tread water.

Maybe we can help you sort through how to prioritize what matters to you most and work through this. There's no rush (other than the desire to get out of the frying pan). It took me a year to plan my exit and I've never felt such anxiety and stress. But that time to plan and get my ducks in a row paid off.

How you feel about this site is how I felt when I arrived here. ForeverDad and a member named Matt who isn't around anymore plus others were here during many of my darkest days, and there were a lot. You have friends here who understand what you're going through.

 

 

[livednlearned]

I am very anxious about the custody. My wife is a good mother. Like all parent partners we have different approaches. She says she believes I do not have the ability to foster my daughters’ emotional needs through adolescence. I cannot disagree more.

It's normal to be anxious. It would be weird if you didn't have these doubts especially given what you've been through and are enduring every day.  

What is it you specifically worry will happen with custody?

What is your relationship like with your kids? Have they seen your wife be violent with you or overheard the way she talks to you?

What is your best guess for what your wife would do when served divorce papers?

It's ok to not feel clear on goals. That's not a sign of any deficit on your part, it's a sign you're likely beaten down and wondering which way is up. These questions -- to stay or leave -- for some of us they're the most difficult decisions we've had to make. It can be daunting to try and puzzle all of that together while struggling to tread water.

Maybe we can help you sort through how to prioritize what matters to you most and work through this. There's no rush (other than the desire to get out of the frying pan). It took me a year to plan my exit and I've never felt such anxiety and stress. But that time to plan and get my ducks in a row paid off.

How you feel about this site is how I felt when I arrived here. ForeverDad and a member named Matt who isn't around anymore plus others were here during many of my darkest days, and there were a lot. You have friends here who understand what you're going through.

 

 

[ForeverDad]

I am very anxious about the custody. My wife is a good mother. ... She says she believes I do not have the ability to foster my daughters’ emotional needs through adolescence. I cannot disagree more.

You are very anxious about custody... yet you state your spouse is a good mother.  Which is it?  Do you see the evident disparity?

Many here arrived stating the same.  "My spouse is a good mother/father but..."  Your spouse isn't a good parent when you have serious reservations.  If she's 'good' sometimes and 'bad' other times, then overall she is not a good parent.

Be careful you don't say that before the court or else the court will look at you sideways and ask why you're disagreeing.  See the point?

[EyesUp]

Your story makes it sound so confident and deliberate as you went through the process. I am having trouble even starting amd finding my footing with moving forward.

There are many instances of confidence and clarity in your words, and it takes some conviction to go down this path - even if you don't presently have everything mapped out.  That's ok.  My words have the benefit of hindsight, and frankly - a good deal of luck.  We all need to chart our own course.

I am very anxious about the custody. My wife is a good mother. Like all parent partners we have different approaches. She says she believes I do not have the ability to foster my daughters’ emotional needs through adolescence. I cannot disagree more.
 

Anxiety is normal when we're faced with a judge, who holds our fate in their hands - and when countered by an adversarial stbx. Yet you are clearly confident in your ability - that's great. It can be difficult to remain present for the kids while dealing with the turmoil in this process. Use this board as a resource, but don't hesitate to seek out local divorce support groups and other resources as needed.

I cannot make a long list of specific activities that I do with my kids individually and that concerns me. I help them, talk with them when they need me, ask questions when I think they need that. I encourage their interests and attend and volunteer at their activities. I have one on one with each of them but not constantly or regularly. A lot of that is my reaction to their schedule. They are so scheduled I find myself pushing my wife to let them have individual white space. My oldest daughter listens to music and doodles or does crosswords. My younger daughter listens to audible books and loves telling us stories she’s made up. But do I identify joint projects and then go do them? No, not really. My wife is a planner and im not. My wife spear headed the Taylor Swift friendship bracelets in advance of the concert. I made one and sat with them. But I didn’t orchestrate it.

I find it difficult to shoulder my way in sometimes. I have to literally argue to be added to the playdate planning texts as the moms all text each other and then make plans.

I know the kids friends. I’ve made a point of having a relationship with those parents. I know they’re doctors and orthodontist. I drive my oldest to middle school 9 days out of 10 amd pick her up about half.

 

I can't help but notice that you started this paragraph by saying you cannot make a long list - and then you proceeded to make a long list... Keep it going. Get more specific. Take your time. I have a feeling you'll be surprised with the result.

The goal isn't to show the judge that you and your stbx do everything exactly 50/50 (in fact, that literal interpretation might be what your stbx wants to debate).  Instead, show what you actually do - sharing dropoffs and pickups is huge - some parents can't show that. Take your time, as I mentioned - the purpose of this exercise is equally to demonstrate to yourself what you do - and potentially to the judge, if it gets that far.

If you end up with a settlement at the 11th hour, it may very well be because your atty has documentation of your activity and involvement with your kids that the opposing counsel will recognize is too strong for the judge to ignore (and likely contrary to their client's sweeping unsubstantiated claims).  One example... stbx: "I'm the primary parent for everything. He's never involved in school" - counter: "I do drop off and pickup more than 50% of the time, I know all the doctors, I know all my kids' friends' parents, and I loved making friendship bracelets..."  the point isn't who had the idea or initiated every activity, it's who was present. You've been present, it sounds like it will be easy to demonstrate. The judge is unlikely to scrutinize every statement - they don't have time - but your stbx will likely make sweeping generalizations that you or your atty can readily counter. The point isn't to demonstrate that your stbx is bad - it's merely that you're a functional, present, compassionate parent.

Documenting all the activity you've done that an uninvolved parent could not have done is the key. Again, anxiety is a normal response to uncertainty. The uncertainty may partially dissolve a bit as you prep this documentation for your atty... it will likely remain until the final agreement is signed. Manage the anxiety, in part, by allowing yourself to know who and what you truly are - vs what your stbx might claim.

Throughout my D process, I kept a concise daily journal - everything I did with the kids, and any noteworthy interactions or events with my then-stbx. The court is not interested in ancient history, they are most interested in the current precedent of the recent path - it can be 6 months to as much as three years for some issues (e.g., alimony, which is often a mandated calculation and not subject to interpretation). This process is going to take some months - as noted, it took me about two years from the first atty calls to the final agreement. If you start reconstructing a log of key events in the past year or two, and then continue to journal from now until whenever the judge says "done" - you'll have what you need.

Glad to elaborate if helpful.

You're on the path.

[ForeverDad]

If you end up with a settlement at the 11th hour, it may very well be because your atty has documentation of your activity and involvement with your kids that the opposing counsel will recognize is too strong for the judge to ignore (and likely contrary to their client's sweeping unsubstantiated claims). ... the point isn't who had the idea or initiated every activity, it's who was present. You've been present, it sounds like it will be easy to demonstrate. The judge is unlikely to scrutinize every statement - they don't have time - but your stbx will likely make sweeping generalizations that you or your atty can readily counter. The point isn't to demonstrate that your stbx is bad - it's merely that you're a functional, present, compassionate parent.

Documenting all the activity you've done that an uninvolved parent could not have done is the key.

After nearly two years completing every checkbox for the court, the Trial was last on the list.  Trial Day arrived and when I entered the court house I was greeted with the news my then-stbEx was finally ready to settle.  Of course, she had a very favorable temp order so she naturally delayed as long as she could.

My ex too made sweeping general claims.  They eventually went nowhere, "he always..." and "she always..." are typically seen as too vague and thus hearsay to be ignored.  What counts in court is documented evidence, not claims unsupported by facts.  On the other hand, even the specifics recorded in your logs or calendars qualify as documentation.  (No, your ex or her attorney cannot browse your personal records, they are yours for reference.)

The court and associated professionals not bother themselves with WHY there is conflict and disagreement.  They're not there to "fix" either parent.  They're not concerned whether your ex has treated you unfairly.  They just want to process the case and unwind the marriage.  Keep that perspective in mind.  Focus on the important factors that impact the court's conclusions.

It may take months or years, but be seen eventully as the parent with solutions, not obstructions.

[ForeverDad]

During that process, something one of the detectives told me stuck with me: Once there is any degree of violence, it doesn't go away - if anything, it gets worse. That comment hit me like a ton of bricks because my therapist, our marriage counselor, and all the books in the world simply did not connect so directly. The message was: You can't change this. I see that message on this board all the time - but it's often mixed it with exceedingly considerate messages based on anecdotal experiences. When coming from a veteran detective that specializes in domestic cases, it connected with me in a far more tangible way.

When I filed my police report which resulted in my then spouse being arrested for Threat of DV, that is exactly the advice I received... if I felt sorry for her or withdrew my report, it would only get worse over time.  Those officers and detectives have seen it over and over.  Promises to behave better fade all too quickly when an acting-out PD is involved.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=352042.msg13165217#msg13165217

Others have addressed this in the most considerate and fair terms. I'll be very direct: You have resolved to divorce. With this decision comes acceptance (now or later) that your stbx's thoughts and feelings are no longer your responsibility.

Yes, you will coparent or parallel parent - but that's it.

Unwinding the marriage is a powerful event.  Accept it because you need the emotional and physical distance.

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you all of you. One thing this opens my eyes to is focusing and writing down what I actually do as opposed to focusing on what I don’t do which list I’ve apparently been given by my wife.

The concern on custody stems from our state being a “best interests of the children”’state. It’s not presumptive 50/50.

This puts me on the framework not or why she’s great or bad, but just on why I’m great. I  am a good dad and my kids need me in their lives.

[EyesUp]

The concern on custody stems from our state being a “best interests of the children”’state. It’s not presumptive 50/50.

This puts me on the framework not or why she’s great or bad, but just on why I’m great. I  am a good dad and my kids need me in their lives.

Without knowing your state and delving into legal strategy (vs. BPD strategies), I'll add that in parenting situations like yours, "best interests of the children" often means preserving the status quo, i.e., as little disruption to the children as possible. 

A new parenting schedule is necessary, but many other routines should be preserved - school district, extra curriculars, friendships, etc. Instead of getting sucked into a negotiation of 70/30 or 60/40, you might want to frame the debate around which 50/50 schedule works best for your kids.  2/2/3, alternating weeks, etc. If you make breakfast and/or dinner for the kids 50% of the time, you should continue to do so...  keep in mind, parenting time is about overnights - so any schedule that works for your kids that equates to 182 or more overnights = 50/50. 

You can get a bit creative with this. In my agreement, I agreed that the kids could be with mom on Christmas Day every year as long as I got a makeup day if xmas falls during my regular parenting schedule. This made n/BPDx feel special and she went for it. Now I get to celebrate with my kids on xmas eve or some other day, and never have to worry about splitting time on the actual day of Christmas - it's better for the kids, too, because it almost completely removes a probable conflict trigger, which we'd all experienced in the past. My n/BPDx sees this as a win - she gets xmas. She didn't even need to ask for it - I offered. This helped get her to 50/50. Of course, YMMV.

You're 100% on the right track with documenting why you're great.

[ForeverDad]

I drive my oldest to middle school 9 days out of 10 and pick her up about half.

So your kids are tweens.  When I discussed wishing for alternate weeks with my lawyer, I recall him asking me, "Do you really want the court to believe you're fine with your ex having longer periods of time with your child?"  And my Custody Evaluator corrected me when I said I'd prefer alternate weeks because I wanted fewer encounters with my ex at exchanges.  Until then that had been the most obvious location we had conflict.

The CE said children under age 10 (ours was in kindergarten at the time) did best with more frequent visits and stated a 2-2-3 (or 2-2-5-5 two week) schedule was best.  My ex took Mon-Tue overnights, I took Wed-Thu overnights and we alternated Fri-Sat-Sun overnights.  I chose the latter part of the week since assignments were often due on Friday and I wanted to ensure classwork was done on time.

Years later when I got majority time during the school year as the less problematic parent regarding school, our summers remained on the 2-2-3 schedule and I didn't have reason to change what worked.

Side point:  Your local court probably has a long default list for holidays, including various ethnicities and religions.  Think ahead on how to limit future surprises.  Strike out any holidays which don't apply to your family.  Why?  My ex one time sabotaged my vacation plans when she stated she planned to observe an ethnic holiday on the list which we'd never observed before and applied to neither of us.

[EyesUp]

The CE said children under age 10 (ours was in kindergarten at the time) did best with more frequent visits and stated a 2-2-3 (or 2-2-5-5 two week) schedule was best.  My ex took Mon-Tue overnights, I took Wed-Thu overnights and we alternated Fri-Sat-Sun overnights.  I chose the latter part of the week since assignments were often due on Friday and I wanted to ensure classwork was done on time.

Side point:  Your local court probably has a long default list for holidays, including various ethnicities and religions.  Think ahead on how to limit future surprises.  Strike out any holidays which don't apply to your family.  Why?  My ex one time sabotaged my vacation plans when she stated she planned to observe an ethnic holiday on the list which we'd never observed before and applied to neither of us.

Two comments:
1) Similar ages here, and not coincidentally we went with the same 2/2/3 schedule with me taking Weds/Thurs for the same reasons.  I would recommend this if achievable.  Transitions are at school, i.e., mom drops the kids at school on Weds, and then I pickup or they walk home to my house that day - the at-school transition reduces direct interaction between parents.

2) Our agreement outlines how to handle transitions on "state or federal holidays" which typically fall on Mondays, i.e., when the kids would typically transition to mom after school.  I realized in hindsight that our district observes a number of no-school days that are not "state or federal holidays" on both Mondays and Wednesdays - It turned out that this gave my n/BPDx an opening to create chaos.  

e.g., she once threatened to file a motion of contempt if I did not transition the kids to her on a Monday that was not a state or federal holiday, but which was a no-school day... I capitulated to avoid putting the kids in the middle of a pointless conflict.  After I capitulated, and when her atty was no longer tracking, she asked me to take the kids on that day anyway...  

The point here is:  You can't anticipate everything - but by framing the discussion in the context of 50/50, you have a better chance of achieving 50/50.  

If you allow your stbx and her atty to frame the discussion in another way, you're only negotiating against yourself.  You might find a subtle way to call your stbx's attention to the fact that in a 50/50 arrangement, she'll have more time for whatever it is that she enjoys - in my X's case, that's time for the gym, for drinking with friends, for dating, etc.  So while she talked a great game about why she's the primary parent, her ultimate motivations were always more selfish - and when given a chance to "win" xmas, she accepted 50/50.  

Sidenote: our agreement doesn't explicitly state the number of overnights or use "50/50" language - this was part of the strategy. It does however say that the parents share equal parenting time, reserve the right to trade nights by agreeing in writing, without a formal modification (very useful), and share equal health/edu decision making - while giving mom special callouts for xmas and a few other minor nights that made her feel like she won...

I've since given my atty feedback on the "state and federal" language - it would have been better for the agreement to reference "recognized no-school days as defined by the school district, which may include state or federal holidays, as well as other holidays, professional development days, early release days, weather delays and cancellations, or any other days in which school is not in session during the regular school year".

Another tip: Don't negotiate. Don't compromise. Don't explain. Simply present a few options that you're prepared to accept that are all variations of 50/50 with subtle differences in "carrot" incentives to your stbx. These options will likely be presented by your atty to her atty, so you won't need to be present when her atty presents reality: "this might be the best you can hope to achieve - so which of these options do you wish to accept?  understand: if you don't accept, you're headed to a judge, who will hear that AlleyOop does a ton of dropoffs and pickups and supervises the making of Taylor Swift bracelets. you might consider these options so that AlleyOop can babysit the kids (at no cost to you) while you're dating" - eventually this might sink in privately, even if your stbx continues to rage...

A common explanation from my n/BPDx to whoever will listen:
"I got xmas" <- i.e., I won
And yet also "the judge was an asshole who forced me to accept this agreement" or "my atty didn't really understand a, b, c" <- blame shifting because she didn't win a 90/10 parenting plan that was never going to happen in the first place - because she's embarrassed (ashamed?) that the final agreement doesn't reflect the (false) narrative she'd been cultivating about why she's supermom and why I'm the devil.

Again, YMMV.

[livednlearned]

The concern on custody stems from our state being a “best interests of the children”’state.

What Eyesup said about status quo being in the best interests of the child is so true.

Courts will want to see as little disruption to the kids' lives as possible. Obviously, having two homes is a disruption but you're an involved dad and any narrative to the contrary is beside the point. If she wants to battle you on that front then get a custody evaluation so a third-party professional can shine light on what's happening in the home.

Your wife's extreme view of you made you lose sight of what's center. The real story is that she's emotionally abusive and capable of violence. She probably won't love having a custody evaluator poking around doing psyche evals and asking how she handles stress and anger.

[AlleyOop23]

This series of posts contains absolutely brilliant practical strategy advice. I am blown away by the insight. I am grateful beyond words to have been given some framework for how to consider this. Yes every situation is different. But this all gives me a mindset and some self determination. More than all of that, as I started journaling about my kids lives and me in them I am able to see me more objectively and realize, both in the feedback here and in that journal that I truly am a good and present father.  That is a gift for which I am beyond grateful.

I am having a different kind of moment I’m hoping for insight on. The other night my wife was on me about how I never plan. So I polled the kids and landed on board games in the backyard. I then began planning dinner and my wife got on me about the choices I was making for dinner. I finally chose
Soemthing everyone liked and made dinner. The four of us actually had a pretty good time.

Throughout the day she’d been criticizing me for various things ultimately in four separate sets. The next morning I sent her a text (face to face never works) asking her to step back and look at my day. I walked through each exchange, all the criticism, the time it took up and said just think about it. Given that this is a typical day how could any human person possibly get excited about planning and spending time together? We had a good time in spite of all that.

I am at a what the heck why not point and threw it out there thinking like so many other messages letters or talks it would just draw more criticism. It was not unique in its approach or diplomatic tone. At the same time I’ve told her I’m not giving civility I’m not getting amd stopped with little things she’s pointedly stopped doing - good morning, good night, I made your coffee. And I’ve actually gotten angry a couple of times and given her a solid piece of my mind even at “you wouldn’t dare say anything at a time like this” times.

She’s clearly actually internalized it. She’s actually making an effort. And my messed up abuse victim self is doing to my rational intellectual self what he always does. “Look theres hope! This is the first step on a healing path!” Nevermind all the things she’s s done or said to me in the last three years. Things no healthy person would tolerate twice.

I realize I’m on the rollercoaster. She probably feels me getting more centered. This is all part of the cycle. Sex is almost certainly next. But for years I’ve bought into it - ‘textbook’ as they say.

My question is this. I don’t know how to be in a mindset of divorcing when it is not awful and not at least just a little bit angry. There is of course a funny charming woman in there as part of the mix. I fell in love with that part. The first thing I needed to take in was to stop the denial and accept that my spouse now the entire person. That good and bad are fully part of the package. But how do I stay on a path that ultimately will lead me out of this marriage and on to a path of healing when there’s this entire side of me acting as an anchor. Trying to persuade me not to act against my fears.

And of course in a matter of days during some angry broadside I’ll wonder why I wrote this post. Side note - there is amazing journaling value here. Even if no one read this it’s very helpful.

[Pook075]

After a lot of bibliotherapy I am confused.

I understand that setting  boundaries can help improve a relationship.  But most writings go on to temper expectations for a relationship with a BPD.

But if I am being my authentic self the way I handle ALL OTHER relationships is to insist on discussion and repair. My spouse has said things that can never be taken back and that no one should tolerate. And my spouse has hit me twice recently )and not before in 25 years). . I was not hurt but my spouse will not disavow that conduct or promise not to repeat it.

So I can improve behavior with boundaries but how do I heal?

To play devil's advocate here, ANYTHING can be forgiven by you.  Part of the problem is that you are waiting for your spouse to say it, which will likely never happen.  The real question I gather from your statement is whether or not you can forgive her for saying things that just shouldn't be said.  And that's 100% your call, none of us have the right to judge what you should forgive and what you won't.  If you can't let it go though, then you have your answer.

One other thing you said was about how you handle other relationships.  I get that and I always thought the same thing- why should I have to sugarcoat things and communicate differently with my spouse?  But you have to realize that you have to communicate differently because your spouse is different mentally.  

For example, if a stray dog runs up to you acting aggressively, we all know to make eye contact, don't show fear, and to establish dominance (making yourself as big as possible, making lots of noise, etc).  That works with other predators as well, such as lions or bears.  But with a cobra or a tarantula, you do something completely different (grab a stick, just get the heck out of there) because they are very different and they react differently.

Again, are you willing to make that adjustment with your spouse or not?  There's plenty of tools here to help you with that.  But if you are unwilling, then you have your answer.

I found myself in an eerily similar situation- 24 years of marriage, most of it pretty good, and suddenly my wife starts getting super depressed around the 22 year mark.  We had a number of deaths in the family that weighed on us, so maybe that's the core cause.  But my wife also started pre-menopause around that time as well and eventually started lashing out at me.  She'd disassociate and paint me black at a moment's notice...this never, ever happened for the first 23 years.  Maybe she'd be distant but she was still the woman I married.

Ultimately, I decided that I couldn't accept the abuse, the loneliness, etc. and I gave up trying to fix the relationship, but that was the right move for me personally.  While all these stories sound the same, each story is completely unique and each of us are unique as well.  In other words, I can't tell you that because my path led a certain direction, you should take that path as well.  I can say though that if I had caught this earlier and realized what was happening, I'd probably still be married (my ex was diagnosed maybe 2 months after we separated...I had no clue that's what was happening).

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop - I started journaling in 2014. I used an app called Evernote - it's still available in the app store.

I did this for a few reasons.

In my experience, I noticed patterns over years - but often had some degree of difficulty recalling exactly what was said or done in specific instances. This was completely inconsistent with my otherwise excellent recall in other areas of my life. I was not in therapy, and it was long before I discovered this forum or learned about BPD, etc. 

However, I was introspective enough to wonder:  what is going on with me?  And what is different about what's happening with my wife, vs. other challenging areas in my life?  Was I avoiding something?  If so, what?  I wanted to reduce conflict in my marriage, and I was prepared to start with me and explore what I could do.

Journaling concise notes after a given "event" enabled me to improve my recall about who/what/when.  I might go weeks or months in between making new entries, although eventually I would make a new entry almost every day.

The journal was particularly helpful when we attempted couples' therapy, but not in the way I'd expected/hoped:  when I reviewed the journal, I began to see patterns more clearly, and to understand that in my case, there might not be any adjustment I could make that would reduce the conflict patterns that were most concerning to me.  More than one therapist turned to me to ask what I was prepared to accept...  At that point, I was still locked into the ideas of "in sickness" and "until death... "

My point is:  I journaled for 6 years before things reached a point where I accepted that the change had to come from me - and that the change I need to make was to leave the relationship rather than capitulate and to accept abuse, etc.

There were periods where I avoided reading the journal, because the awakening was painful. But in dark moments as well as in moments of calm and clarity, the journal helped me move forward.

Important detail:  Strongly recommend that you make app access password restricted and place its launch icon in an out of the way / boring folder, or make it a hidden app if your phone has that ability.  Or if that's not practical, consider a browser-based solution, or a password protected document on a computer that only you access, instead of on your phone.

While my initial motivation was to improve recall and understand dynamics in my relationship, the journal eventually became an important asset in D proceedings. The journal habit eventually became four separate journals of varying value:

- key conflicts/events with my x (concise summaries)
- all activity with kids (no commentary, just dates, times, actions)
- my thoughts about other non-family things (good and bad)
- activity in my professional life (good and bad)

I've continued this practice following the D. 

If you choose to continue with your own journaling, please take all necessary steps to protect your journals and restrict access.

As noted by others, there are resources here to support whatever path you choose to take.  There is no easy way forward - all options are hard.  That said, if you think reading comments from others here is helpful - imagine getting a memo from yourself.  That's what the journal can do for you.

[AlleyOop23]

The journal has been a wonderful help. It’s caused me to realize I do spend time with my kids, that I’m intentional about it and am a good father. I’d let my wife define me as a poor o parenting partner and equated that with being an ‘Underachieving’ father.

But here’s something I could use help on. I was diagnosed with adhd two years ago. She has adhd as well. Like everyone we present differently. I’m not going to get into how she presents just me.
Two nights ago we went to an outdoor movie on grass. We went to a friends party early then to the movie. We agreed I’d pack and we’d pick up food. I didn’t pack paper plates. She laid into me about she couldn’t believe I didn’t pack. She laid it on in front of the kids. I ran into a c store and got some. Saturday I helped one daughter get ready for her first overnight backpacking trip. We practiced with the pack and went thru her checklist. I tricked her by making the pack heavier without her knowing and we walked four miles. When I told her the pack weight after she was proud and relieved.
Sunday we were all really busy. I knew the camp checklist wasn’t complete. I failed to read the email. Though they are leaving Tuesday she’s supposed to have everything Monday. And she needed a lunch. My wife was angry and stepped in amd went on and on about how she has to micromanage everything.

So here’s the thing and I could pro ide more detail but I’m so so so tired of angry lectures. I understand that by she’s frustrated. I think she could lighten up some but I get it - I miss details all the time. I run my own highly successful business and have people on staff whose job is my details. Even though I work full time and she’s home she got some legitimate beefs.
I’ve gone on adderal. I hired an adhd coach. I have a therapist. I’ve read book after article after listen to podcasts.
I cannot figure out how to remember the plates or to think to read the email.  
There’s not offsetting fun between us. It’s just lecture after rant. And though on this one she’s got a point it’s like I don’t even care anymore.  I can’t stand the way she talks to me about this. She won’t engage on it or change or be constructive. And this isn’t the only thing she gets mad about. On Saturday she was furious I didn’t do different or better help with an event she was planning. But is this abusive nor am I Just labeling it l that because I’m uncomfortable with it ? If I’m not being clear please let me know.
Am I complaining about her treatment of me when she’s legitimately angry to avoid feeling bad or responsibility? Do I sincerely believe these things could be handled differently and she’s overreacting or am I just not seeing this fairly?

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop

Does anyone else in your life communicate with you this way?  Make you feel this way?

Objectively, do you feel it's ok to communicate like this in front of the kids?  Does the golden rule apply?

Does your W get a pass on her behavior because the core of her message is a valid concern?

Many of us get caught in the style vs. substance trap.  And most of us don't want to drift into a meta-discussion about the discussion ("I don't like your tone"), instead of about the central issue that needs a solution ("we need plates").

There are a ton of resources here to help address these dynamics (Library: Tools and Skills Workshops).  It's a long list and might be a little overwhelming when you feel like you need help right now, not after completing an associates degree worth of study and introspection! 

Personally, I found it helpful to read these resources and to revisit them from time to time, but YMMV.  My suggestion is to dig in there, and in parallel keep posting.

One idea:  What would happen if you said something like this to your W:

"You were absolutely right about the plates, and I don't mind going to get plates or anything else we need.  I'd like to ask that when these things come up, that we show the kids that we can solve problems together."

My guess is that your W will feel criticized and not take the invitation well (even if you take pains to avoid "you" statements, and focus on the benefit to the kids and possibly to your marriage, etc.).

Can you think of another way to have a cooperative discussion with your W that might have the desired outcome, e.g., in which she agrees not to berate you or insult you in front of your kids?  Or acknowledges your feelings in any way?

I wonder if your W wants you to look bad in front of the kids (intentionally, intuitively, other)?  One pattern of BPD behavior is black and white thinking, in which your W needs you to be "bad" so that she can be "good" - in which case, she will go out of her way to reinforce any mistake you might make, real or perceived.  This last point is key, because it often leads to you, as the spouse, trying to be perfect and/or "walking on eggshells" in order to avoid invoking some event over any issue, large or small.

How you respond in these moments is important.  It's your chance to model good behavior, and ultimately let your kids know that you are a safe parent.

In the meantime, how do you feel about the questions posed above? 

[AlleyOop23]

Great advice. I’m this moment I feel I’ve tried that but maybe that specific context may work. She believes she’s modeling healthy expression of anger when I ask her to change her “style”
In front of the kids.

[EyesUp]

Would that modeling work well if you behaved the same way toward her?  What if the kids did?

Pointing this out probably won't win any points - as it treads on invalidation / criticism, etc.

Question:

As you read through these ideas and "what if" scenarios - are you focused more on her, and how she might react?  Or are you focused on yourself, and the implications for how you feel about these scenarios?

It can be helpful to have your own frame of mind in focus. 

In my journey, there was a time when the balance shifted from "what does my wife think?" to "what do I think?" - and it was hugely liberating.  Suddenly, discussion about radical acceptance shifted from acceptance of my wife to acceptance of me - my own thoughts and feelings - which I had pushed aside in order to make room for my wife, for a long, long time.  Coming to terms with my own, long-ignored sense of things was a big step.

Your wife is entitled to her POV - people do get angry and express it in various ways. However, that doesn't mean that everyone else has to automatically accept it, embrace it, respect it, etc. - especially if there's little or no reciprocity. 

This is prime territory for a boundary - where you wife gets to hold on to her anger, but where you also get to impose some limit or consequence for occasions when it's simply not acceptable for whatever reason based on how you feel (about your kids, yourself, or some general idea about social norms and healthy relationships).

[livednlearned]

She believes she’s modeling healthy expression of anger when I ask her to change her “style” In front of the kids.

Maybe a counter to that is to model healthy ways to stand up to a bully.

Hold up your hand and say, "Stop." Repeat it often because she's on a train flying down the tracks at top speed. Keep saying stop until she stops. If she escalates, tell her you will walk away.

Ideally, you tell her you'll do this when she's regulated. "Hey, I need to walk away when I feel overloaded. I'll come back once I'm back to baseline."

However, sometimes the heads up doesn't work and it's more effective to talk less and do more.

Your kids are not learning about healthy anger, as you know. They are learning that the angriest most unhinged person gets to say and do whatever they want.

My kid felt proud of me when I first started to stand up to his dad.

In the months after I left n/BPDx, my son and I were in the car heading to our new apartment and he said, "I feel bad for dad because he must be lonely."

I said, "He should've thought of that when he was being mean to us."

I saw his face in the rear view mirror and he was beaming. That's the first time I realized he was actually proud of me.

Old me would not think this was the proper thing to say to a child. But our children are not typical children. They live in a war zone. What he heard me say was, "You act like a bully, you end up alone." Versus before, when I was teaching him, "We appease bullies and nothing changes."

[AlleyOop23]

Question:

As you read through these ideas and "what if" scenarios - are you focused more on her, and how she might react?  Or are you focused on yourself, and the implications for how you feel about these scenarios?

Still figuring out excerpt. Though I read Beatty on Codependency and understood intellectually what I was doing, this question is powerful. My subconscious mind went to work on it and when I woke up I saw all these events with such liberating clarity. I will work hard to hang onto this question when I start into FOG. Thank you thank you.

[AlleyOop23]

I’m moving from believing I deserve this to not. It’s totally accurate I’ve not participated in gift purchasing and other planning. What’s omitted is when I’ve actually sat down amd asked her to plan these things like she wants she just gets irritated about my style of participation. As messed as it is to be looming for feedback, i am. How bad is this text thread? Amd YES there’s truth amd my culpability in what she’s complaining about.

Here is the thread. My responses are genuine not sarcastic.

Me

I ordered [daughter] a nomatic backpack for her birthday. She’s forgotten how much she wants one. Telling you bc it arrives today

Spouse

Um…she and I have been looking together. She needs a specific size for school. Not sure thst will work. Please dont try to overcompensate by doing the this kind of thing.

It’s just the same as fun dad stuff. You’re not actually acknowledging what’s going on just randomly and sporadically buying something and not communicating
Don’t send a bunch of text justifying. It’s the same pattern of temporary pro activness that is indicative of attempts to participate in your personal life without actually engaging
It’s upsetting and disrespectful
Of what I do for them and how hard I work to meet their needs. You should be engaged and communicate not of doing t hit a separately and randomly

Me

On the [place just she and I went to] trip she went over it and over it. I thought it would be fun and a throwback to the trip

Spouse

 And please dont go on about how I’m critical and you do things wrong. I’m sick of trying to settle for a level of participation that just feel sad and disconnected and frankly passive aggressive to me
It’s fine to have reason but never talking to me is the problem. I’ve spent their entire lives doing these things with no help whatsoever and you’re popping in randomly. It’s minimizing and fun dad and isn’t something f you’ll keep up so I’ll just have to keep doing what I do while you get extra credit for you’re o ce I. A while purchase after I spend hour searching f then intérêt for the best thing
Just PLEASE READing get what I’m saying and how upsetting and disrespectful and sexist it is so I don’t she. To add this to the ducking g pile of upsetting and hurtful things I have to tolerate
I keep asking you to communicate and engage and do these things together so we can be a couple and family and parents together but you just keep up the disconnection and separation of everything. It’s only exacerbating the issues.
She never mentioned that pack when we’ve looked online. And again…yes I’ve spent actual time doing this not just quickly and randomly purchasing something so thanks for just ignoring all of the time and effort I put I to everything for them
And now cue how overwhelming this is for you but not at all how awful this feels for me.
Except thst I’m completely right and justified in feeling this and I’m not even remotely sorry about feeling this way because absolutely what it’s been like for me and you can’t even bring yourself to try for one second to do anything together like simply her birthday. The plans are made and the presents are purchased. You missed it. You never asked. You dont get to drop in like this

Me

I would never intentionally minimize what you do for them snd the family. You work hard at all of it and everyone’s lives are better for having you in them.

Spouse

This isn’t sufficient if for some reason you think it is
And you’re letting g another life moment go and you could have engaged and planned it with me
You’re entirely and will likely miss the point of all of this. And I imagine just think “i was just being nice and I just bought a backpack.” And that’s not remotely what has happened here
And that passive response you routinely have is a major part of the issue. You don’t see what you’re actually missing and what you’re leaving me with and how you pop in in such a male way like you’ve just been here the whole time celebrating and buying gifts when 99% of what they’ve ever received or had planned for their holidays and birthdays were all a total surprise for you. And that should seem like a much bigger issue to you!
So sorry I’m such a PLEASE READing bitch and poor you just can’t win. Yep. It’s yoy that can’t win. Not me not moms not women. It’s definitely not something you’re missing and don’t understand. All you have to do is pro-actively participate in your life and life and in general in a a consistent manner and not last minute or retroactive repair. It’s not that hard if you actually care about the people in your life, care to have people in your life and what things from life thst come from pursuit and not just whatever is delivered to you by me or passes in front of you
Yep…a simple backpack purchase unleashed this. So maybe instead of thinking what this means for you you can think about how big this all is for me (and moms) that all of this comes from a seemingly simple act on your part
What all I might be doing you never consider and the ways you’re not doing your part in this life. And please don’t go on about your failure becuase it just makes it about you and takes over the whole narrative and nothing comes from it. Be uncomfortable and consider how big this actually is and how accountable you actually are.
I have expressed these same sentiments so many times. It’s degrading to hear that you don’t understand what I’m saying or experiencing. And I already found her a backpack after hours of searching and asking her questions. Not just quickly and simply throwing money at a task like it was thoughtful.

[livednlearned]

It’s totally accurate I’ve not participated in gift purchasing and other planning. What’s omitted is when I’ve actually sat down amd asked her to plan these things like she wants she just gets irritated about my style of participation.

She cast you in a role for a different play than the one she's directing and now you're being chastised for not knowing the lines in a script you were never given.

Seems impossible to get it right given these conditions.

Even if you worked 14 hour days and never gave a gift in your life, she is saying: no, you can't give a gift.

Whereas logic would suggest that if she wants you to be involved in the lives of your kids, giving a gift would be considered a step in the right direction. In which case, she might chastise you while encouraging you to keep making these positive changes.

The text exchange is about her, not the kids (this is pathogenic parenting -- her feelings are used to describe theirs).

It's moving the goalposts. You cannot win.

There is a similarity to BPD sufferers who claim they were assaulted and get a restraining order. But then try to run into the person who allegedly hurt them.

Which is it? Either you are the victim or you're the abuser.

pwBPD want to be both.

[livednlearned]

she believes I’m on the autism spectrum

Do you ever wonder if it's your wife who might have autism?

[ForeverDad]

she believes I’m on the autism spectrum

Do you ever wonder if it's your wife who might have autism?

In other words... sometimes it's good to ask ourselves whether what we're experiencing is Projection, whether we are being cast with the other person's behavior.

[EyesUp]

Accusations are confessions.

[Smedley Butler]

Man that text exchange is equal parts infuriating and triggering because I've gotten the same kind of lashings before myself. She plays the victim role perfectly while accusing you of doing what she is doing. I'm sorry man.

[AlleyOop23]

One of the things I’ve struggled to do is “not take it personally” per Mason and Kreger. I didn’t take that one personally. The next day she and one of my daughters caught up with me and the other daughter. When I saw her she said essentially “I feel awful.  My back is killing me again and perimenopause is worse I feel like I have the worst pms all the time.” Then she got out her phone and showed me the backpack she and my daughter picked and said as if that entire thread hadn’t happened “I think it does what she wants but I’m worried it’s too big. I think that one you got is too small. I hope one of them works out. “

This is as close to an apology as I’ll ever get.

Just so weird.

[AlleyOop23]

I rarely go on Pinterest. I went on yesterday and my wife had invited me to one of her pin boards. I accepted and there were 659 of those pins with quotes. Every single one of them deals with things she’s struggling with - overcoming trauma, having adhd and dealing with flash emotions. Fully half are things about being with someone who doesn’t see you, or love you or needing to see the truth and move on or the fact that apologies are nothing without changed behavior. That half is
all about me. All the thing she complains about. I have no idea how long this took. No explanation. And it does actually trip jy guilt triggers. It’s true that i distanced myself. Haven’t plugged in. And I feel awful that someone in my life feels
That way. It’s so sad. And so accusatory. I wish I wanted to talk to her about it. I used to beat myself up for avoiding a conversation like this. Now I recognize it just opens the door to more of this. It makes me wonder how bad I was ? How distant was i? How much of how she feels could have been avoided if I’d figured out how to lean in more? Or was I always self protectively withdrawn and no matter how great I was it still wouldn’t be enough and we’d just be here.

Thanks for listening. As I move to divorce I am so damn sad and so
Sick of then introspection.

[AlleyOop23]

I’ve decided I need to leave. She won’t collaborate with me. I’ve gotten to a point where I’m not afraid of or avoiding conversations about our relationship. Rather I just see them as unproductive and inhealthy.

I’ve hired a lawyer and need to provide him with a lot of information. I’ve not told my wife yet. I need everything to be ready.

Here’s the thing - we had an outing with some other families last night. We got back in the car and she wasn’t speaking to me and hasn’t all day.

When she does this, it really messes with me. It stresses me out. I start feeling like I need to do something to make it stop. Like it’s my job to run up there and open up a co bersation that will ultimately be 1-2 hours on some flaw of mine and its effect on her for years. There won’t be any back and forth or learning. Just a lecture on some issue I’ve heard 100 times.

Here’s my question. I’ve worked hard to get to a place of conviction and to hold on to my own perspective and not let her dictate the emotional frame.

SO WHY DOES THE SILENT TREATMENT STILL BOTHER ME SO MUCH? I should be relived she’s avoiding me. Instead I’ve got so much to do and I’m just stressed out amd staring at the wall.

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop,

One of the upsides to detaching is that you have a chance to get to know yourself.  It doesn't happen immediately, but eventually you might be able to answer your own question about why you feel a particular way, or why a particular thing effects you.

Why does the silent treatment bother you?  I can't say.

I can speculate:   Because a reasonable, rational person is compelled to try to make sense out of things.  Because a non-disordered person with a basic level of empathy can identify that something's off, and is compelled to acknowledge it.  Or possibly because a person who has played a caretaker role (even inadvertently) for a period of time is resisting the impulse to try to fix something...

Not sure if any of this applies to you and what you're going through.

In my case, there was a moment when it felt like a light switch flipped - when I finally had conviction, I didn't need to "resist" an impulse to repeat familiar patterns, and I didn't ruminate or get stuck reviewing everything in my head.  I just started to move forward. 

Now on the other side, I admit that from time to time, something might trigger a memory and I find myself thinking about some unresolved issue from years ago... "why did she..." or "why didn't she..." - but I tend to catch myself and remind myself:  There's no answer, there's never going to be answer, and I have real priorities:  friends, family, kids, work, etc., and that's where my attention needs to be. 

As they say, don't let your STBX live in your head rent-free.

You are 100% correct - you have other things to think about. The D process can be like a part time job. It sounds like you're going about it in a very diligent manner. You'll get through this.

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you. I do feel like I just recently got to a place where I stopped questioning my perceptions and feelings. I liken it to quieting my mind during meditation- you have to pull yourself back. And it’s reassuring where you wrote about telling yourself there no answers. I have for years maybe decades thought if I could just understand and be understood everything could be happy and … stable - my mind added stable before I chose that word and I started crying while typing this in my car.

I’ve finally stopped wondering what is she thinking or needing others to tell me I’m not crazy or just repeating stories of can you believe this happened in my therapy sessions. Because - it doesn’t matter. There is no understanding. And someone whose illness cannot let them understand just will not ever understand. Always deflect and counter.

Thanks for saying I’ll get through this. It’s going to be just awful. Though as my therapist points out - how much worse could it actually be?