Boundaries and not taking BPD spouse insults personally

[jaded7]

The posts here have been profoundly insightful and influential. After therapy, books, coaching, talking to professionals, podcasts, it has been here that all of this has finally gelled for me, at least in terms of internalizing my understanding. Repeatedly people have weighed in offering advice based on their experiences and the huge difference maker - sharing episodes of the exact same behavior. For me that’s all so helpful. Even above with the spouse saying “my friends understand me” which I get all the time.

The thoughts in the last posts about how to view behavior are amazing for me.

I am contemplating divorce and this helps with that. But I’ll be tied to my spouse forever as we share children.

The perspective I have fought myself to obtain has been facilitated here.

Thank you thank you for your time helping me here. And I’m sure I’ll have losses of clarity and struggles and I’ll be back I’m sure and hope someday I’ll be able to pay it forward

Glad this is all helpful, AlleyOop. It's a process, a long process in my case, that ebbs and flows. But gradually the truth of the matter starts to sink in. Even with things as obvious as verbal abuse, real abuse that includes name calling and put downs and belittling and yelling, it's still HARD to understand that this is not acceptable. It's just not. But, in my case it was always in my mind 'I must have done something to deserve this', or 'She is really upset, and it makes no sense, but I want to make her feel better'.

And yes, "my friends understand my life!".

And also, when she was under the weather a bit with a cold and I called/texted for days asking her for what she might need or want- willing to do anything at all, not wanting to just show up because she is so private and triggered around her house and privacy (she says her ex stalked and scared her)...she repeatedly said she needed nothing. I started making suggestions (run to the store for. you? back rub or neck rub?) which she rejected, then ...went awol and didn't respond for a few days. When we finally reconnected she was MAD, told me she 'turned off her phone', because I "didn't take care of her". When I reminded her that I offered many times and even made suggestions, she mocked the suggestions I made and told me "my friends don't need to ask, they just know and do it!"

these are mind reading expectations, coupled with ghosting, and then blaming me for failing.

A common thing, you can't win. You didn't even know you were in a competition.

[AlleyOop23]

After 25 years of marriage, with the abuse intensifying over the past 3-5, I need to leave the marriage. 

I have worked very hard to be more honest with myself and with her about my feelings.

In this conversation though, I am conflicted as I am unable to be truly honest. I guess I can say, which I’ve said except to add that “and for these reasons I am divorcing you:”

“I’ve come to realize I must accept the full spectrum of you, the good and the bad as a fully integrated person. I cannot have one without the other. You aren’t working on yourself. You won’t be accountable for thjngs I’ve asked you to account for. You don’t think your actions or words are in any way problematic. You refuse to work together on the relationship.”

That alone will result in an unresponsive torrent of countering.

After 25 years I wish I could be honest and add: “I think you have a mental illness. You are both emotionally and physically abusive to me. In addition to ending this marriage it is affecting your relationships with your kids, your friends and money.”

I am really struggling to start this conversation and start the domino effect of emotions on kids, family, friends in addition to me. I’m
Just so tired and out of energy. But I cannot take the criticism and tone anymore.

[kells76]

Hey AlleyOop23;

First of all, 

I know this isn't what you wanted for your marriage or family. I'm really sorry it's gotten to this point.

If I'm reading correctly, you and your W have two daughters, 11 & 13? Correct me if I missed anything there.

Do you have a timeline you want to meet for having that conversation?

With kids in the mix, it can pay to slow things down a bit to be extra strategic. If you're able to tap the brakes, maybe we can support you in finding a way to get your ducks in a row so that if, like you suspect, she has a big reaction to the announcement, she doesn't take it out on the kids, either directly (saying things to them) or indirectly (impulsively road tripping/moving out with them).

What do you think?

[AlleyOop23]

I am all ears. I’ve read about divorcing a HCP spouse and I understand anyone looking in would give the safest advice. I am unconcerned about her moving out or taking off with the kids. I suppose you never know.

I am more concerned about the time between when I start the process and when I move out. I do have a lawyer and I live in a “best interests of the child” state as opposed to a presumptive 50/50 physical custody state. She’s been a stay at home parent for 4 years. I work full time.

My wife will not agree to a temporary 50/50 arrangement. I risk a temporary unbalanced custody moving into a permanent arrangement.

The kids need time with me. I’m their dad, I’m stable. I can’t put us all in a situation where I end up with far less time. I’m not looking for it to be “fair” just close to even to give them balance. This issue has helped keep  me stuck for about 18 months.

[ForeverDad]

Have you consulted some family law attorneys?  (Of course, privately and confidentially. You have that right.)  Consultations are inexpensive and do not obligate you to hiring them such as by paying  retainer.

With consultations you'll get an overview of your states laws, how your local court handles divorces, what strategies might be needed in a high conflict divorce, etc.

I ask because I've heard that some states are starting to default to 50/50 unless there's good reason otherwise.  For all we know, your state might be one of them.

My wife will not agree to...

For the past decades your spouse likely believed herself the family Authority.  Well, news alert, in court the judge is The Authority.  (Admittedly, court is often laid back and non-reactive but the Big Guy is the judge, not your spouse.)

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks - I’ve consulted two. It’s moving that way but it’s no guaranty.

[kells76]

I am all ears. I’ve read about divorcing a HCP spouse and I understand anyone looking in would give the safest advice. I am unconcerned about her moving out or taking off with the kids. I suppose you never know.

Can you say a little more about that? Every pwBPD is different, so what are some things you see or think that land you there? And/or, is that presuming that you have to be the one to move out of the current house?

I am more concerned about the time between when I start the process and when I move out. I do have a lawyer and I live in a “best interests of the child” state as opposed to a presumptive 50/50 physical custody state. She’s been a stay at home parent for 4 years. I work full time.

My first thought is to set up counseling for your kids now, whatever it takes, vs waiting until after the divorce. If you're concerned about that "tipping your hand" to your W, do either or both of the kids have anything going on now that might work as cover? I.e., academic issues, social issues, ADD/ADHD, upcoming change in school, etc? If the kids can build a solid relationship with a counselor now, then they'll have someone to turn to if/when Mom starts telling them "Dad is to blame for everything going wrong in "our" lives".

Second thought is start working your connections/resources to figure out how you'd manage child care with a 50/50 parenting time split. I'm assuming kids are in school normal hours during the school year, so that means figuring out rides to your place after school and rides to school in the morning, yes? Do you know their friends' families, do you have family in town, can they ride the school bus...? If you can get school year care covered, that just leaves summer break, and again, you may need to leverage summer camps, day camps, kids' friends' families, your family, faith group connections, etc.

It's really important to pivot out of the mindset of "I work fulltime and she's their mom, so I guess I can't have 50/50 parenting time". It is possible even though it takes some problem-solving and legwork ahead of time.

My wife will not agree to a temporary 50/50 arrangement. I risk a temporary unbalanced custody moving into a permanent arrangement.

Smart of you to recognize that temporary arrangements can morph into permanent arrangements even if that wasn't the plan. If you can ride out staying in the home -- don't assume you "have to" be the one to move out! -- you will likely be in a better position to work out parenting time/custody. What does your L say about staying in the home, or which parent "has to" move out?

The kids need time with me. I’m their dad, I’m stable. I can’t put us all in a situation where I end up with far less time. I’m not looking for it to be “fair” just close to even to give them balance. This issue has helped keep  me stuck for about 18 months.

OK, good stuff. I think you're on to something here, which is that it is possible to "grudgingly trade" aspects of custody/parenting time that on the surface look "unfair", and that your W will view as her "winning" or "beating you", but really are long-term wins for you and the kids. You aren't stuck with accepting boilerplate arrangements just to get it done or make it easier.

Mediation is likely part of the process (check with your L if mediation can happen post-announcement but when both of you are still living in the home). Think about your W's personality and what she values. Does she want to be seen as "more than you", perfect mom, does she want "photo worthy" times with the kids, are certain holidays important, etc... In our case, there were certain holidays that H knew would likely either be more important to Mom, or would inevitably create conflict if we tried to split every other year. So, we never have July 4th with the kids, but the PP protects H's ability to spend time with the kids either the 3rd or 5th. Also, we never have Christmas Day with the kids, but we are guaranteed Christmas Eve every year. Stuff like that. But don't propose that right off the bat! Save it up your sleeve for negotiation.

Other approaches could include some way of making it look like Mom has more PT during the school year by making school hours her parenting time. Yeah, that means that some school year holidays the kids are with Mom (unless you guys explicitly come up with a school holiday arrangement), but most of the time the kids would be protected by being at school on Mom's PT -- but she would look like she's "winning" by having all those hours. Then school breaks would be an even split.

Or, in terms of decision-maker/tie-breaker role, are there ones where you'd be okay with Mom being ultimate tie breaker? Vision care? Dental care? Orthodontics? Religion? She may feel like she's "winning" if all you get is shared on physical and legal, plus sole mental health, and she gets more sole decision maker roles. Or, maybe she'd respond OK to you guys having an even split of tiebreaker roles: she gets religion, dental, & vision, you get legal, mental health, & medical. Just depends on her personality.

I think my biggest focus would be on somehow getting counseling for the kids proactively.

...

Thanks - I’ve consulted two. It’s moving that way but it’s no guaranty.

Just to make sure I'm tracking, are you saying that your state is moving towards presumptive 50/50 but it's no guarantee?

[AlleyOop23]

This is really valuable advice thank you. It gives me some good ideas on how to get this all done.

As for the house, it just makes sense for me to leave. First, I don’t want it. Second I own a professional services business I started while married. A quick back of the napkin sketch of assets roughly puts the home amd home equity in her column and the value of my business in mine. And then some arrangement on retirement and she technically qualifies for permanent maintenance - we’ll see.

When she’s made declarations about splitting up she has always said the kids will stay in the house and she and I will move in and out. I am absolutely not doing that but it does provide some insight into her thinking.

Yes I’d want to give mediation a shot.

And to be more clear. The first lawyer I talked to a ways back told me I was going to be an every other weekend dad. I messed me up for months. I finally got a second and then a third opinion. Lawyers 2 and 3 believe the trend is for courts to recognize it’s not necessarily best for the kids to lock the dad out. But they generally agree 50/50 probably wont happen if she doesn’t agreed to it.

I’ve been on the winning side of privilege my whole life in ways I’m sure I can’t even see. And most women are more involved. But this one - that fathers are not presumptively entitled and yes expected not do 50/50 is a real gut punch. It’s kept me stuck in an unhealthy marriage out of fear.

I have to just finally accept I can’t control it and jump with the intention of doing my best.

Thanks again for what you wrote. Invaluable

[ForeverDad]

When she’s made declarations about splitting up she has always said the kids will stay in the house and she and I will move in and out. I am absolutely not doing that but it does provide some insight into her thinking.

Her wishful thinking doesn't work since it would leave the kids in a mixed scenario, for example, what if she refused to leave when it was your time to arrive?  as in, "a child is ill and I have to stay longer", etc.  This also is impractical since it would be expensive with three homes required, yours, kids' and Ex's...

This sounds a lot like a variation on the problematic "nesting" concept.  That's where neither parent has a home with the kids but the parents take turns helicoptering in.  Nice concept but it doesn't work for long.  Your version seems to indicate she will always be there.  An issue I see, not the only one, is that the kids won't have a home with you away from the discord and dysfunction.

But this one - that fathers are not presumptively entitled and yes expected not do 50/50 is a real gut punch.

I have a funny story about this 'truism'...

I had a two year divorce, the last step before the trial was scheduled was a Settlement Conference in my lawyer's conference room.  I recall beforehand, while in my lawyer's office, her lawyer came in, sat down and started talking, just the 3 of us.  One of the things he said was that he himself was divorced and he had alternate weekends (same as what I then had during the temporary order).  He suggested that as something to agree with.  I said, "Sure, sounds good to me but I don't think Ms FD wants alternate weekends."   He was quiet after that.

By the way, that was one of the few times in my life where I had a wonderful answer at the right time.  I savored the moment.

[livednlearned]

Thanks - I’ve consulted two. 

I didn't do this but learned after my divorce that sometimes people are advised to consult with the most aggressive family law attorneys just to make sure they are no longer available to represent your spouse.

It would've been hard for me to do that where I lived because of the density. But if you're able to ask around about aggressive attorneys and keep hearing the same names, that might help you learn who they are.

I remember when my attorney discovered who she was dealing with she was relieved. n/BPDx's lawyer was a father's rights attorney but he was also genuinely concerned about kids. He would probably make a fantastic lawyer for many of the dads here. Eventually he filed a motion to withdraw from n/BPDx's case, probably because he put two and two together that his client was incapable of putting the needs of his kid first.

[livednlearned]

Had to add:

Lawyers 2 and 3 believe the trend is for courts to recognize it’s not necessarily best for the kids to lock the dad out. But they generally agree 50/50 probably wont happen if she doesn’t agreed to it.

I'm always so curious about this. I'm a researcher and took some time to do research on this years ago. It's been a while so I can't remember the exact states where the research was done, nor can I remember the percentages. But the findings were along the lines of this: it is true that more women get more time than men. However, more women ask for that time. In states where more men contested custody, they were just as likely to get more time as women.

Meaning, when men contest custody, they are just as likely as women to get more time.

There was also some speculation that lawyers perpetuate the bias that men will not get equal time. If lawyers say to dads "you aren't going to get 50/50" then obviously fewer men are going to get 50/50 if they were counseled to not push for it.

In the state where I divorced EOW +1 (every other week plus one weeknight) was not uncommon. And my state was one of the ones that still has alienation of affection laws. Meaning, it was weighted towards men.

It's hard to keep this in mind because our emotions are on tilt, especially during the early stages. But divorce and custody is essentially winding down a contract. You are negotiating. It's ok to start high. Your L may have a sense of what will irritate a judge and that's worth listening to. But your L should also be able to say (if he or she knows) what is on the high end of reasonable given what kind of documentation you have, and other things considered (like what the judge is like, if that's known).

Some judges are so technical that they all but remove common sense and instinct from their rulings. Others shoot from the hip. Mine had rotated off the bench in juvenile courts and was particularly sensitive to parents who don't do the right thing for their kids. My lawyer also hosted a yearly event for lawyers and judges and knew many of them personally. She was better as a trial attorney than paperwork. If you expect things will go to court, which for many HCP they do, then having someone who is really good at litigating is super helpful. My lawyer dropped a bunch of balls on the paperwork side of thing so I caught a lot of typos and oversights in drafts but that was preferable to me than having her balk in court.

Your brain is going to hurt as you prepare for this and it may feel truly intolerable to wait, but you will get through it. The feeling of walking into your own place without the tension and dread and fear and revulsion is priceless. And you have this board, and you found it early in your journey 

One day my son and I walked into our new apartment three stories up that smelled like carpet glue with virtually no furniture, and he just leaned into me and hugged me. He didn't have to say why. I knew.

You'll get there 

[AlleyOop23]

This is interesting to me and I actusllly moved on from a firm after the attorney I got assigned to immediately went to work on my custody expectations. I thought - we’ll if you don’t think I’m going to get more then I won’t.


There was also some speculation that lawyers perpetuate the bias that men will not get equal time. If lawyers say to dads "you aren't going to get 50/50" then obviously fewer men are [/b]going to get 50/50 if they were counseled to not push for it. [/u]

Your brain is going to hurt as you prepare for this and it may feel truly intolerable to wait, but you will get through it. The feeling of walking into your own place without the tension and dread and fear and revulsion is priceless. And you have this board, and you found it early in your journey  

One day my son and I walked into our new apartment three stories up that smelled like carpet glue with virtually no furniture, and he just leaned into me and hugged me. He didn't have to say why. I knew.

You'll get there  

Thanks. I burst into tears when I read this. Only someone going through this could make a comment about coming into a house and immediately becoming tense.

[ForeverDad]

I'm a researcher and took some time to do research on this years ago. It's been a while so I can't remember the exact states where the research was done, nor can I remember the percentages. But the findings were along the lines of this: it is true that more women get more time than men. However, more women ask for that time. In states where more men contested custody, they were just as likely to get more time as women.

Meaning, when men contest custody, they are just as likely as women to get more time.

There was also some speculation that lawyers perpetuate the bias that men will not get equal time. If lawyers say to dads "you aren't going to get 50/50" then obviously fewer men are going to get 50/50 if they were counseled to not push for it.

I recall my lawyer warning me, "Are you sure you want a Custody Evaluation?  It could backfire on you."  I was in the second of two temp orders where I was the alternate weekend dad.  I read the CE's initial report months before the Trial was to start.  He recommended equal time and if that failed then I should get custody.  During that time my then-stbEx did more antics, surely making herself look even worse, but his final report was sealed on Trial Day.  I got my equal time and, yes, that did fail but court refused to unseal that final report or follow the CE's conclusion.  Court said it was stale, legally too old to apply.  However, I did get full custody and a few years later I also got majority time, but only during the school year.

So I agree with LnL, as the stable and reasonable parent, stand up for your child and your parenting.

[kells76]

AlleyOop23, I get where you're coming from with having to navigate being the full-time working parent and what you're up against there.

I was thinking more about creative ways to "let" your W have >50/50 parenting time (notice NOT >50/50 custody -- that's a really important distinction to make) on paper, while having it end up being more equal or in your favor in practice. And, of course, balancing that with the fact that you have to work (I'm assuming something like a 9-5 during the day?)

One sample schedule that looks like the other parent gets more time could be:

Parent A's parenting times are: Sunday 7pm to Monday 9am, Monday 3pm to Tuesday 9am, Thursday 3pm to Friday 9am (50 hours)
Parent B's parenting times are: Monday 9am to Monday 3pm, Tuesday 9am to Thursday 3pm, Friday 9am to Friday 3pm (66 hours)
Rotating weekends are split evenly between Parent A and Parent B, and are defined as: Friday 3pm to Sunday 7pm (52 hours)

On paper, if your wife is Parent B, she would be "winning" with 57% of the PT. However, most of those hours are during school times, so your kids would be in a neutral place.

Food for thought as you start planning negotiating. Like LnL mentioned, don't actually propose what you want right off the bat. Start high and work down from there. So this plan wouldn't be the first thing you offer, but it could be your "backstop" or "absolute minimum". That's something to tell your L... not your W.

[ForeverDad]

Post divorce my son was in elementary and middle school.  I had 50/50 time with a 2-2-3 schedule.  I worked and much of the time so did my Ex, so we used day care before and after school.  Sure, she freaked out every once in a while but overall it was manageable.

One thing that was made clear in the order was that my time was my time, just as her time was her time.  She couldn't claim my time just because I was working or whatever.  The phrases I used for the parenting plan was that school and daycare were equivalent to my personal parenting and as long as I provided caregivers such as daycare, etc then she couldn't zoom in to take over.

[AlleyOop23]

This board has really been a boon to me.
Thank you thank you all.
I considered starting a new thread for a slightly related question. One of the things that initially paralyzed me, and then as I got a little more aware it just gave me pause is my inability to answer the question “what do I want out of the rest of my life?”

I had so much vitality and excitement all those years ago. But as my codependent self sank into this relationship and my spouse kept subtly telling me how bad I was at life I just stopped trusting myself. So one hard part of leaving this marriage is envisioning my next life. Even having goals.

I was working with a business coaches puzzling over my lack of vision about a year and a half ago when another person in the group just ripped off the band aid and said it’s because you’re in an emotionally abusive marriage (and them proceeded to masterfully demonstrate that she was right about the abuse). So as I’ve read and learned and talked and been in therapy I’ve come to believe that part of me has just been taken away. She’s done it and I’ve let her.

This all happened at the same time I was diagnosed with GAD and ADHD. Once on medication I realized another part of my drive was trying to outrun my fear.

All That insight is great. Does anyone relate to that? Any thoughts on getting it back? Or maybe even forming it for the first time?

It’s just so strange because from the outside by almost anyone’s objective measure I am a professional and business success. I’m a really good dad. I’m an okay friend (I’ve let myself be isolated).

Just throwing this out there. Also if any of you think I should put this somewhere else please
Advise.

[Emaanbillah]

Hello Alleyoop,

Sorry to hear that you have been going through a difficult time. Foreverdad and kells76 have provided a lot of invaluable advice.

To add to that, I will say that in some cases you might have to consider getting a more assertive lawyer as while going through the process to advocate when you might feel confused or conflicted.

Remember you do not have to start with fair and balanced but aim to end  there. Mediation might work for some but I fear it might be counterproductive with BPD.

Also, get as many consults from lawyers as you need before you feel comfortable and reassured.

Lastly, for what it is worth, now over two years after I started divorce proceedings, I have started to slowly come out of my shell and reengage with my own interests and focus on my child. That being said, my child is not school going age, and I had to act during crisis moments for my child and my safety. Perhaps, if you can, you could consider slowing down and reflecting on each aspect as you decide how you wish to proceed.

Relationships with BPD spouses are even more enmeshed than usual and it is a process to really untangle it.

I pray that you are able to get the clarity you need.

[livednlearned]

All That insight is great. Does anyone relate to that? Any thoughts on getting it back? Or maybe even forming it for the first time?

Find out why her. Why did you pick her and stay with her, and feel bad about yourself when she was the one abusing you. That's key. Get to the other side of that question, let the answer bring you to your knees, and you can have yourself back and then some.

Look for all the behaviors you have that help you avoid feeling pain.

Not suffering, pain.  

Speaking for myself, I had to cry a river, something I stopped doing because what good did it do (in FOO). There is a lot of intelligence in those feelings. When we put them in a box it seals us off from a lot of intuition and instinct and spontaneity and joy and yes, pain.

But those emotions, they have to be felt. It was a now or never time and divorce made it easier to deal with it once and for all. Use your divorce to be a mess and then apply love to clean yourself up. Treat yourself like someone you love to pieces (the most painful feeling of all!)

My divorce opened up a phase of raw emotion I almost miss. Almost. To feel that much, to be that alive, to slow everything down so it's all that mattered -- what a gift. A messed up gift, but a gift nonetheless. I hated every minute of it, and needed every second.

I was starting to experience professional success during my divorce. All that was there, except for genuine enjoyment. After healing from my divorce, it is there times ten, and I am fully engaged, finally.

These scripts in our heads, they rob us of so much.

[Outdorenthusiast]

Hope this personal share will help on my 26 year marriage where it used to happen - but more excessively after 23 years of marriage.  At year 24 I reached the limit and got help for myself and made changes.

My Scenario: Used to be frequently yelled at for 2-3 hours, would get locked/blocked into the bathroom, closet, bedroom or my arm grabbed and physically restrained from leaving as she raged and swore at me.  I was the only one she did this to because pwBPD must have a “favorite person.”  Somehow everything always ended up being my fault, and I would apologize profusely.  Lots of crazy making stream of consciousness and screaming finished with “do you have anything to say” of which I was so punch drunk I couldn’t even string the thoughts together.  (Sound familiar?)

Now it doesn’t happen anymore.  What happened?
1) I took myself to counseling - learned about co-dependency, and self respect I had lost along the way trying to keep the peace and being a nice forgiving Christian “unconditional love” guy.

2) Put a first boundary down - I will no longer be physically restrained in a room, or blocked in a room when we fight.

3) Put a second boundary down - I will listen but my threshold is 20 mins.  I will take a break away from her and the situation at that time.  If it is still important- we can pick it up again later.

4) Put a third boundary down - I will not tolerate being sworn at or name called.  If she cannot respect me, I don’t have to be a part of the conversation.

5) Put a 4th boundary down - explained that this type of dialogue is unhealthy and I can’t take it anymore - something has to change.  (She insulted me and said I should get counseling - to which I retorted I have been in counseling for 6 months - I know what I want and it isn’t this.)

6) deployed the SET methodology during her rants and validated her feelings (not her actions)

The result was awful the first 3-4 weeks, lots of cursing and raging, but I figured - it was happening anyway- now it is only 20 min! She never reopened conversations after they ended.  She went to counseling, realized she had a problem and started to try to regulate her emotions because she doesn’t want to lose me.  The time and frequency of rages have died out over 3 months and it has been probably 3 months since a rage.  When the last rage happened - it was short.  With my new boundaries, I won’t tolerate her coming un-hinged, I will just remove myself from the situation.

It takes guts - but you are the one who will have to build the boundaries, and she will try to break them.  It will get ugly, blame it on you, call you names, before it gets better. (Extinction bursts).  However - in my situation it did get better. 

In yours - how long can you tolerate being in an emotionally abusive situation?  Unconditional love doesn’t exist in marriage without respect and boundaries.  (Love, Honor, Cherish till death…. Etc.).   If she is yelling and screaming, that is not honoring or cherishing you.  You have rights to how you should be treated.  It is perfectly ok to insist upon them.  That will make the marriage healthy.  Safety and security is a basic human need. Everyone should insist upon it.

For me - rage problem solved (for now) - still working hard on building back trust.

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you. I’ve read about this approach and wondered if it could work. If this was the extent of the issue I think I could make it work. There are other components to this relationship that make it unhealthy.

I am wondering if you’ve had any of these issues:

1. Constant blame and criticism. The put-downs, the little jokes.

2. Regular incompetence references. She is constantly referring to me as incompetent.

3. Impulsive spending.

4. Glass half full. She is so negative- everything for her is awful and just about to get worse. Even though we objectively live a gilded life.

If the only thing I needed to manage was the rages I think I could handle that. It’s playing whack a mole on all the other issues. Amd all of them play out in front of my kids.

Im not perfect. She’s not a complete villain. She’s a good mother.  And all these issues are because she needs help she isn’t getting. I get all that.

Anyway - was any of this present and is now managed? I think it’s the constant shower of blame that gets me most. That and walking on eggshells.

[Outdorenthusiast]

Thank you. I’ve read about this approach and wondered if it could work. If this was the extent of the issue I think I could make it work. There are other components to this relationship that make it unhealthy.

I am wondering if you’ve had any of these issues:

1. Constant blame and criticism. The put-downs, the little jokes.

2. Regular incompetence references. She is constantly referring to me as incompetent.

3. Impulsive spending.

4. Glass half full. She is so negative- everything for her is awful and just about to get worse. Even though we objectively live a gilded life.

If the only thing I needed to manage was the rages I think I could handle that. It’s playing whack a mole on all the other issues. Amd all of them play out in front of my kids.

Im not perfect. She’s not a complete villain. She’s a good mother.  And all these issues are because she needs help she isn’t getting. I get all that.

Anyway - was any of this present and is now managed? I think it’s the constant shower of blame that gets me most. That and walking on eggshells.

Unfortunately- yes.  My wife has 9 of 9 characteristics on the requirements.  3 are at least in remission for now.  She also has co-morbidities of ADHD, CPTSD, Anxiety, Depression, and impulsiveness in spending, online gaming, and eating.  She is an excellent mom and when regulated can actually be fun to be around.   That is what makes things suck in relationships like this.  Jeckle and Hyde.

The name calling, belittling, micromanagement, not being able to do anything right (claims of incompetence) etc. were intense against me.  We live a gilded life and she has conservatively blown 2 years of salary on impulse buys and online gaming.  I had to build stronger boundaries and build a stronger respect for what I am not willing to tolerate.  THAT was not easy as it requires accepting risk, respectfully holding your ground for what is right, and realizing that respect must be two ways in a healthy marriage.  Spending problems have been limited by actions I have taken.. (see my other post)
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=355975.msg13196358#msg13196358

She two months ago deeply and sincerely apologized and that is why we are still married.  She is dedicated in therapy now, and she is taking it seriously and making positive strides.  There are emotional mishaps, but they are now 3/10 instead of 10/10.

The depression glass half empty I can fully empathize with.  I am a glass half full person - it can be frustrating.  Nothing is ever enough.  The sun can be shining and beautiful- but it is too bright.  It can be a cozy cloudy day, but it is too dark. She is working to reprogram her thoughts - but it is not easy.

It takes a lot - but there is literally NOTHING you can do to make her happy.  She must do this for herself.  The faster you stop trying to make her happy, and the more you request her to be more healthy and get help and that you are not qualified to fix this or make her feel better  - it has a chance to get better.  (Recommend Read CoDependency No More - Melody Beatty).  Being in a relationship like this slowly makes people unknowingly co-dependent.  Good thing is - you can fix it and it can be undone.  It isn’t a disease/personality disorder - it is a mindset you slip into.

For me counseling: (myself - first 2-3 months to work on me)

Then her:
First 3-6 months of her counseling - realizing yes she has issues - but lots of blaming of me and anger towards me.  Thinking it is mostly me with the problem.

Next 6 months - finally realizing it isn’t mostly my fault - but a lot of deep seated issues never dealt with and a new willingness to tackle her deep seated demons from childhood. 

Now - tackling a long list of items driving the behavior one by one through EMDR.  (Sounds voodooish I know - but I can tell you it is working on reprogramming her responses, and minimizing a lot of big negatives)

I will keep you posted - but hopeful.  My experience is not like everyone and my pwBPD is high functioning.  I am sure that makes a difference.

[AlleyOop23]

I could do this with you all day. I’d say my spouse is 4 or 5 out of 9. But I’m obviously not trained. Comorbidities ADHD, complex PTSD, perimenopause

Everything EVERYTHING you are writing is my existence (except the gambling). And yes she can be so damn fun. Jeckyl and Hyde for sure.
I’ve been referred to and read the Beatty book. Yep, that’s me in there.
The one huge difference is that as I carve out limits on what I’ll accept she continues to blame me for all of it. She won’t acknowledge she needs help, she’s expressly and specifically not sorry.

I think I’m just enabling all this behavior by still being here. If she was getting help amd dealing with it I’d do whatever it took. But instead she just blames me. She hit me once and classically said it was my fault for making her do it.

[Outdorenthusiast]

Well - one additional boundary I made which really put the shock and awe of my seriousness about the fact I didn’t like it.

I started to sleep in the guest bedroom.  At first “to get a better night’s sleep” and then more and more days.  She finally confronted me and I told her I don’t feel emotionally safe around her, and the separation is allowing me to think, and feel safe.  She can continue to do what she wants, but that doesn’t mean I have to be a part of it.

She was mad, hurt, but I told her I am sorry, I can’t help her with those feelings - but she can talk to a counselor just like me if she wants.  I don’t feel safe.

Anyway - that is my path.  The separate bedroom helped me gain courage to stand up for myself.

As to the hitting, that should also be a boundary line not crossed.  You just have to decide what you will do if she does it, and stick to it.  (I.e. immediately stop the conversation and leave the room and not discuss or engage in anything further with her for several hours).  NOBODY does anything requiring to be physically hit in retaliation.  Feel free to build that boundary - you are worth it.

Oh and the Beatty book - she wrote in one chapter a long list of characteristics and asked the reader to keep track of all the ones that applied.  I did, and then slowly worked to undo each of them like she recommends.  It was helpful for me.

[AlleyOop23]

Everything I’ve read, all consistent with my experience, points to the idea that resolution cannot be attained and that I cannot deliver an understanding of what I think or how I feel that I should expect will be received well or even taken in.

So after receiving another series of angry lectures and 14 inch text diatribes on me and how I lack, all while I’m silently planning to divorce her, I want to make her understand
 
Anyway – what do I do?  If there’s no point in responding then why bother? Just send an email about how I’m going to try to treat her with respect and kindness no matter what, keeping my head up and doing what’s best for the future and just getting through this?  It no longer serves me. I know she doesn’t care what I write.  Anything I send her is just ignored. If I feel better having sent it, and created my own record of a version of things, is that valid?  why don’t I just say I’m done being savaged and mischaracterized and blamed and criticized and I’m hiring a lawyer and looking for mediators and it doesn’t matter when you come up with yourself I’m just over the way you treat me and you aren’t interested in repair or resolution and you aren’t accountable for being physically abusive and you blame me for the abuse I received and even proclaimed that based on the damage I’ve done for 25+ years there’s nothing wrong with anything you’ve done for the past 3 years and when I tell you that you need to commit to not doing it again you won’t and just go back into blaming me and you’ve lost any respect you ever had for me and won’t even just treat me like a normal human being and this relationship is toxic and it is screwing up the kids.

[ForeverDad]

There's a phrase for this... negative engagement.  You can do a search on our site (above on the green bar is "Search Threads") for other references.

From your post you appear to already know further discussion won't lead her to agree with you, rather it will just enable or encourage her to further disparage or discourage you.

I've often suggested if you're seeking Closure then you'll probably have to "Gift Yourself the closure you desire" since you're unlikely to get any from the soon-to-be-Ex (stbEx).

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you. I will look it up and consider what it means to gift myself closure.

[livednlearned]

So after receiving another series of angry lectures and 14 inch text diatribes on me and how I lack, all while I’m silently planning to divorce her, I want to make her understand

These behaviors are fear-based. She is rejecting you before you can abandon her.

Because of her rejection behaviors you end up doing what she feared you would do.

What you want to make her understand is the reverse: you are leaving her because she cannot stop rejecting you.

That is quite a heavy lift because her traits likely make it impossible to embrace the underlying message: that she is wrong.

If you write something, write for yourself to read years later.

These divorces tend to change us.

[AlleyOop23]

I actually set aside 4 hours to go
Over the state of things and work up to something different. Discernment, counseling to separate, mediation or just separating. I ended up taking on her criticism that I had no goals. And her compete despondency over how I’ve neglected her and not dated her. Those things are to an extent true amd I’ve owned them. But I just got sucked in amd had this reaction that dammit I DO have goals I am not driftless. Amd YES befoee adhd and GAD diagnosis I was spacey and distant.

And then I’d try to wedge my own needs in and got back that everything she’s ever done is a reaction to soemthing I’ve done and I’m always making it about my feelings.

And then she was sobbing and we ran out of time. Amd I’m
Just angry.

I cannot get out of this damn rut. I’m not happy. I’m not optimistic. The relationship is holding me back. Amd yet I see the fragile little girl and I know it’s manipulative and I fall for it. I now I’m just alternating angry amd depressed.

Throwing this out there as I’ve gotten some great thoughts here. Hoping for more.

I am in a relationship with someone whose belief is that my neglect is so profound I deserve her treatment and have to earn common decency. I don’t tolerate this out in the world n

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop...

Hello. Just read this entire thread - Wow - I feel that it's exceptional, both for the quality of input provided, but also for your persistence - to navigate through the FOG.  You're well on your way.

Like others, I can directly related to your experience.  M53 (50 when the divorce lightbulb turned on).  F49 n/BPDx (46 when the D process got underway). Three kids during the marriage, D5, D9, and D12 at the time - similar ages to your kids. We were married 14 years, and dated on/off for 10 years prior to that. I was against divorce forever, but one day I realized that I was fighting my own pre-conceived ideas and that I did have another option. When the lightbulb finally clicked on, I embraced it.

It took just over two years from when I started interviewing attorneys until the divorce was finalized, and now I'm about 18 months out from decree absolute. Your schedule may be different for many reasons, but as I read what you're going through, I couldn't help but relate.

During the process, I cohabitated with my n/BPDx for about a year. At the time, I had been seeing a therapist for well over a year and had an attorney who was aligned with my goals for the divorce. I encourage you to do the same. Like you, I had a theory of division of assets, which proved to be useful. I also fully documented my participation in my kids' lives - in other words, I was ready to counter the (false) argument that I was an absentee dad. I knew my then stbx would argue that I was a road warrior and never home and that she was the primary parent. So I went back through emails and calendar invites (usually sent by me) - years back - to document all the times that I was at parent-teacher conferences, school events, medical appointments, extra-curriculars, etc. etc.  Your atty is not going to do this for you - you need to take control and manage your case - and you will be far more likely to engage an atty that doesn't merely tell you what you want to hear if you do.  Even if your stbx is/was the primary parent - you still need to do this exercise, both to be ready for the divorce process, and also to demonstrate to yourself what have and have not done - and what you must be ready to do going forward.

As others suggested, I interviewed many attys. More than 20. I probably went overboard, but I was not in a rush. Some calls were short. Others were more in depth. I learned a lot. I asked prospects if they had experience - and success - representing dads. I specifically focused on high-conflict situations where there may be false accusations in play. I asked about direct experience with the judges in my county. Since you're a business owner, I encourage you to interview attys like you're interviewing a new general manager for your business - they will report to you, you're still the boss, but they will bring some skills and expertise to the operation that you may understand, but which you don't practice every day - that's why you're hiring an atty in the first place - otherwise you could do this pro se. It sounds like you've done a great job so far - if you haven't made a decision yet, I encourage you to interview a few more attys.  Also, don't hire a firm (where you get assigned to an atty later) - interview the atty you'll work with upfront. It's like hiring an employee - you might use a hiring service to send over a cleaner without an interview, but this is your new COO, CFO, etc. You want to meet them first and clearly align on their experience and ability to represent your goals. This is the most important hire you're going to make this year (maybe ever), so don't hesitate to reboot if you've already sent in the retainer - make sure you have representation you're comfortable with.

My then-stbx actually removed the IP-cams from our home security system while cohabitating. Anticipating false domestic violence claims, etc., I had a voice recorder in my pocket 24/7. I was extremely fortunate I never had to use it - I live in a 2-party consent state, but was prepared for the worst. You should know your local laws, and also prepare for the worst. Prior to filing for D, there was a 911 call and my n/BPDx was "section 12'd" - i.e., taken to the hospital for evaluation (our couples counselor actually made the call). During that process, something one of the detectives told me stuck with me: Once there is any degree of violence, it doesn't go away - if anything, it gets worse. That comment hit me like a ton of bricks because my therapist, our marriage counselor, and all the books in the world simply did not connect so directly. The message was: You can't change this. I see that message on this board all the time - but it's often mixed it with exceedingly considerate messages based on anecdotal experiences. When coming from a veteran detective that specializes in domestic cases, it connected with me in a far more tangible way.

During the pandemic, and then during the cohab time, I actually spent more time with the kids than ever. My stbx was out of the house as much as possible. I knew she was seeking validation elsewhere and was dating - It was painful at first, but then I realized it was actually helpful as it helped regulate her emotions and keep her focus and attention elsewhere. I'm not saying that will definitely happen for you, but be ready for anything...

Which leads me to a theme that's been in your posts over the past month or so:  The explanation. 

Others have addressed this in the most considerate and fair terms. I'll be very direct: You have resolved to divorce. With this decision comes acceptance (now or later) that your stbx's thoughts and feelings are no longer your responsibility.

Yes, you will coparent or parallel parent - but that's it. Yes, it's in the best interests of your kids for you and their mom to find some new equilibrium and ability to coexist in a new way - but sometimes (most times?) in situations like ours, that's not in the cards. The fact is that your stbx is likely to process divorce as a rejection - and this time, let's face it - she's right. You know what follows... 

At this point, even if you're able to cohabite, it's time to get ready to setup separate quarters in the house, minimize contact, and follow Eddy's BIFF communication protocol with as much flat politeness as possible. Become a sphinx. The point is: No need to worry about the explanation - because: No more explanations.

Be prepared to communicate via attys. In matters re: kids' needs and schedules, do it via text or email - document everything. Model perfect behavior at all times, but especially in your written communication. 

Like you, I knew that my n/BPDx wanted to be the primary parent and wanted more than 50/50 time. Was this because of historical precedent or because she believed that I was somehow bad, or was it because she needed to win or had some other ego-driven motive? Doesn't really matter.

Of course it's important to try to understand motivations, but in the end, what may or may not be rational motives just don't matter. The important thing is to be ready for the judge - and in that context, what matters most are your motivations. In front of the judge, you don't need to prove that mom is bad, or unfit - on the contrary, you mainly need to demonstrate that you are a great dad. So that's one area where you need to prioritize your time and attention in preparing your case.

Another anecdote: I filed first but waited to tell my stbx until papers were ready to be served because I was unsure how she would respond. My complaint was filed complete (i.e., all supporting docs, including financial statements) via USPS during the pandemic. The court was backed up. In the intervening weeks, my n/BPDx filed electronically without supporting documentation. I didn't know that was an option, because my atty was diligent rather than expeditious. My stbx's complaint was received and recorded first. She had no idea that I had actually filed first (and actually still doesn't know - I never saw the need to mention it). Somehow, she still managed to flip the script and blame me for rejecting her because I didn't try to get her to withdraw the complaint for an at-fault divorce...

Although I don't think that particular twist can be easily replicated, I mention it because it was helpful to me and might be instructive for you: I let my n/BPDx's various claims, threats, rages, etc., roll off my back. Along the way, I documented everything. I largely followed the Bill Eddy playbook in Splitting and BIFF. No more defensive statements, no more explanations, no more lengthy explanations. Sometimes I simply said "I cannot discuss this now" or "I prefer to communicate in writing" or "this is for our attys to discuss" etc.  Sometimes the response was no response - I simply would not get sucked in.

As Eddy and others here mention (predict?) - We settled on the courthouse steps before our first pretrial hearing. My atty landed the agreement - that I proposed - for 50/50 parenting time in exchange for financial terms that were favorable to my X.  My atty noted that my X traded parenting time for money (sometimes a big no-no), but that the judge was inclined to allow it because the agreement prioritized stability and continuity for the kids, with me keeping the marital home (as well as me keeping X's debt). Again, hard to replicate - but possibly instructive.

Going through the process was almost a fulltime job, but on the flip side... Over the past 18 months, I reconnected with long lost friends and family. Made some new friends along the way. Got back to some long neglected activities. Regained focus at work. In short, reconnected with myself - or at least, started to. Which in turn, has enabled me to be a better and more present dad.

You will get there too.

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you. Your advice is very helpful and I am grateful.

Your story makes it sound so confident and deliberate as you went through the process. I am having trouble even starting amd finding my footing with moving forward.

I am very anxious about the custody. My wife is a good mother. Like all parent partners we have different approaches. She says she believes I do not have the ability to foster my daughters’ emotional needs through adolescence. I cannot disagree more.

I cannot make a long list of specific activities that I do with my kids individually and that concerns me. I help them, talk with them when they need me, ask questions when I think they need that. I encourage their interests and attend and volunteer at their activities. I have one on one with each of them but not constantly or regularly. A lot of that is my reaction to their schedule. They are so scheduled I find myself pushing my wife to let them have individual white space. My oldest daughter listens to music and doodles or does crosswords. My younger daughter listens to audible books and loves telling us stories she’s made up. But do I identify joint projects and then go do them? No, not really. My wife is a planner and im not. My wife spear headed the Taylor Swift friendship bracelets in advance of the concert. I made one and sat with them. But I didn’t orchestrate it.

I find it difficult to shoulder my way in sometimes. I have to literally argue to be added to the playdate planning texts as the moms all text each other and then make plans.

I know the kids friends. I’ve made a point of having a relationship with those parents. I know they’re doctors and orthodontist. I drive my oldest to middle school 9 days out of 10 amd pick her up about half.

I guess this post is fishing for an injection of confidence and anyone going through it if you have advice rare drop it. I’m beyond grateful for this space. I’ve gotten more than I can ever repay here.