Stupid fight, not sure how to resolve

[Joaquin]

So my uBPDw and I just had a dumb fight and I’m now struggling over my conditioned instinct to capitulate and accept blame vs my feelings about what happened.

Basically, I told her I wanted to keep a change in my facial hair I’ve had recently. She argued against it kinda strongly, at one point telling me I just do what I want for myself (really unfair — I gave examples for the things I’ve changed for her and pointed out that she has ignored my preferences for her) and she then commented (half jokingly) that this facial hair should’ve been a premarital discussion and I can’t spring it on her now. She generally pushes much more firmly for what she wants with a lot of entitlement imo and I think she could’ve been a little more sensitive but if it ended there, NBD.

Anyway, I responded (also half jokingly) that she also recently made a big change to her appearance (religiously motivated) that most ppl would consider a premarital discussion. I was/am supportive of her choice, but my point was it’s fair to point that out so let’s not go there.

I felt she set the adversarial tone for the conversation, but she ofc took my comment as a persecution. Told me I’m immature and I should respond better, no acceptance of her role in the conversation.

It escalated a lot from there. I’ve been here so many times with her where she has different rules for herself and will abruptly play the victim with no ownership or accountability.

I’m now at that same place feeling like I want to hold my ground bc excessive blame is a boundary I’m tryna hold, but also feeling like it’s not worth dragging this out into days of emotional dysregulation. She always forces it to a place of hyperlitigating how I could’ve/can be better with no accountability of her own. I’m losing my capacity for that, but this is also far from the most egregious example.

What do I do? It’s always on me to fix things so I’m kinda wanting to let the discomfort hang in the air a little before rushing to repair, but the risk is also high with her birthday in a couple days.

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[Notwendy]

This is about boundaries. Unless the physical change is unsanitary- like refusing to bathe or wash clothes, people should be able to choose how they want to dress, style their hair, and so on. People also change their appearance over time, their style, and so on- but do you love the person? It shouldn't really matter that much. This is your face, your hair, your body and the same goes for your wife.

This should not have gone as far as it did.

She said an accusation that wasn't true. That you do things for yourself and so you JADED and she went further, and then you came back with the zinger about her clothing style and her religion. Ouch

There's a line from a David Bowie song (Cat People) "putting out the fire with gasoline" and that is what you tried to do.

It's not giving in to not add to the drama. She says "I don't like your ____whatever- mustache, beard" the first thing is to validate her feeling so she knows she's heard. "I'm sorry that you don't like it" and then listen to what she says. Then respond "I understand you want me to get rid of it, but I would like to keep it for now". She will likely throw a few zingers after that but you don't have to respond. Just repeat, "I would like to keep it for now". If she keeps at it, then say "I need to use the bathroom" or something and remove yourself and let her calm down.

[Joaquin]

Thx as always Notwendy. This is helpful. Just to clarify, we share the same religion so I wasn’t attacking her religion, just pointing out that she made a big change that is widely viewed as something to be discussed before marriage and I was nothing but fully supportive of her autonomy and her choice. As you point out, I see her body and appearance etc as her business and hers to control. She has a very different view and has always complained that I don’t do enough to fit her preferences.

I see how what you prescribed would’ve been a far better response. It may be petty, but it bothers me sometimes how she can get away with taking any tone/comment while playing victim and I guess sometimes I feel like it’s justified to keep her in check by just repeating what she said back to her. I know you’re right that it’s best to always stay above it all, but idk I’m human and I already work so hard to be an emotional caretaker that a convo like this should be a little more two-sided.

I was already planning on shaving for her birthday in a couple days. Do you think I shouldn’t? I guess I internalized her view on how I should express care by following her preferences so long ago that I haven’t questioned it.

This is about boundaries. Unless the physical change is unsanitary- like refusing to bathe or wash clothes, people should be able to choose how they want to dress, style their hair, and so on. People also change their appearance over time, their style, and so on- but do you love the person? It shouldn't really matter that much. This is your face, your hair, your body and the same goes for your wife.

This should not have gone as far as it did.

She said an accusation that wasn't true. That you do things for yourself and so you JADED and she went further, and then you came back with the zinger about her clothing style and her religion. Ouch

There's a line from a David Bowie song (Cat People) "putting out the fire with gasoline" and that is what you tried to do.

It's not giving in to not add to the drama. She says "I don't like your ____whatever- mustache, beard" the first thing is to validate her feeling so she knows she's heard. "I'm sorry that you don't like it" and then listen to what she says. Then respond "I understand you want me to get rid of it, but I would like to keep it for now". She will likely throw a few zingers after that but you don't have to respond. Just repeat, "I would like to keep it for now". If she keeps at it, then say "I need to use the bathroom" or something and remove yourself and let her calm down.

[thankful person]

For what it’s worth, I think you should shave for her birthday. Whilst this could go either way, in my case I try to avoid giving my wife such ammunition to say that I really don’t care about what she wants and I don’t listen to her etc. I’ve been through similar myself with my wife telling me not to wear certain items and not wanting the kids wearing clothes my mother bought them. We are mostly beyond this now, she sometimes makes comments but I just brush it off, “sorry you don’t like my boots. I like them.”

[Joaquin]

Thank you. I always appreciate your experience. We’ve made enough progress that I felt I could shave for her birthday, so I appreciate your validation on that. She tends to be on the controlling side (total enmeshment is her relationship ideal) and I’m the complete opposite (very independent and extremely respectful of other ppl’s boundaries and autonomy) and that disparity I guess still bothers me on some level, but we’ve come so far from her trampling over my individuality that I feel I can give a little. The compromise we reached before things escalated was that I’ll keep this facial hair for temporary periods but permanent is too much for her. Not unreasonable.

What bothers me more than the facial hair thing is how she can spin every argument as her being a totally justified victim and get self righteous about how I need to be better, even when she’s the aggressor. She can’t see her own behavior and gives me ownership of everything, and that really upsets me. I accepted that way longer than I should’ve and it did me a lot of emotional damage. I’m working out how to assert that boundary now but as you can see it still gets messy and gets the best of me sometimes, 

For what it’s worth, I think you should shave for her birthday. Whilst this could go either way, in my case I try to avoid giving my wife such ammunition to say that I really don’t care about what she wants and I don’t listen to her etc. I’ve been through similar myself with my wife telling me not to wear certain items and not wanting the kids wearing clothes my mother bought them. We are mostly beyond this now, she sometimes makes comments but I just brush it off, “sorry you don’t like my boots. I like them.”

[Notwendy]

I think the decision depends on how you will feel about yourself if you do. This is something I have worked on with a counselor- saying yes when you mean no. When we do this, often out of fear or people pleasing, we let ourselves down. We feel disappointed in ourselves.

The middle ground is if we don't really want to do it but are willing to do it. That doesn't result in feeling badly about ourselves.

Imagine yourself shaving it and ask how will you feel.

[Joaquin]

You put this well. When I’m feeling very grounded and centered I feel I can give more without losing myself. I’d rather not shave but I think I can accept the compromise.

The shaving issue was easy to get past. What upsets me more is how she turned the argument into another one-sided persecution and confidently, self righteously gave me all the blame and ownership again. Her own behavior is a major blindspot for her. I identified this long before I knew about the BPD.

I think the decision depends on how you will feel about yourself if you do. This is something I have worked on with a counselor- saying yes when you mean no. When we do this, often out of fear or people pleasing, we let ourselves down. We feel disappointed in ourselves.

The middle ground is if we don't really want to do it but are willing to do it. That doesn't result in feeling badly about ourselves.

Imagine yourself shaving it and ask how will you feel.

[Notwendy]

I have observed that pwBPD prefer Victim position. Look up the Karpman triangle. Victim position is the one position where one is not responsible or accountable. It avoids shame if nothing is their fault. For pwBPD , shame is a very difficult feeling. From Victim position, they can "fight back" be justified. If nothing is their fault, then the blame has to be with someone or something else.

The only other two positions available are Persecutor or Rescuer. If you aren't rescuing, well you're persecutor. You can not get out of the triangle by taking on any of these roles. It takes some learning and practice to not respond in them.

So your argument. She doesn't like your facial hair. You say you want to keep it. So now, she's the victim of your selfishness and you are in Persecutor position. You send back a zinger on her clothing style. More Persecutor.

[Joaquin]

Yep exactly. It’s textbook karpman triangle over here. I haven’t heard of ways to break out of it with a pwBPD. Do you have any guidance on that?

I have observed that pwBPD prefer Victim position. Look up the Karpman triangle. Victim position is the one position where one is not responsible or accountable. It avoids shame if nothing is their fault. For pwBPD , shame is a very difficult feeling. From Victim position, they can "fight back" be justified. If nothing is their fault, then the blame has to be with someone or something else.

The only other two positions available are Persecutor or Rescuer. If you aren't rescuing, well you're persecutor. You can not get out of the triangle by taking on any of these roles. It takes some learning and practice to not respond in them.

So your argument. She doesn't like your facial hair. You say you want to keep it. So now, she's the victim of your selfishness and you are in Persecutor position. You send back a zinger on her clothing style. More Persecutor.

[Notwendy]

Like the conversation I posted- keep cool, non reactive. Use "I" sentences, not "you" . "I'd like to keep it" not "you are being unfair".

Accept that Victim position is a part of her thinking. If you don't give in, you will be the bad guy, she will make accusations but don't emotionally respond. You can disengage. Even saying something like " I need to have a moment to think about this" and just remove yourself to calm yourself down.

Just because she accuses you doesn't make it true. If I called you a pink elephant, would you be upset? Would you try to defend yourself and try to convince me that you aren't one? I hope not, because, you know it's not true and my saying you are one can not make it true.

 You could say "well I understand you feel that way" and then disengage. Just substitute something strange like this for the accusations and you won't react as emotionally.

[Joaquin]

Thanks. Im good at this 90% of the time, but idk maybe all the effort I have to spend being this nonreactive emotional caretaker builds resentments in me that come out the other 10%? It’s hard staying in this role, always giving more than you receive and overlooking so much while being blamed so unfairly. It honestly feels much more like a parent-child relationship than a romantic adult relationship

Like the conversation I posted- keep cool, non reactive. Use "I" sentences, not "you" . "I'd like to keep it" not "you are being unfair".

Accept that Victim position is a part of her thinking. If you don't give in, you will be the bad guy, she will make accusations but don't emotionally respond. You can disengage. Even saying something like " I need to have a moment to think about this" and just remove yourself to calm yourself down.

Just because she accuses you doesn't make it true. If I called you a pink elephant, would you be upset? Would you try to defend yourself and try to convince me that you aren't one? I hope not, because, you know it's not true and my saying you are one can not make it true.

 You could say "well I understand you feel that way" and then disengage. Just substitute something strange like this for the accusations and you won't react as emotionally.

[Notwendy]

It seems that way to me - that my BPD mother acts childish. I don’t know how my father saw it - he didn’t talk about it to us ( appropriate to not discuss it with us )

My only conclusion is that nobody can possibly know all that goes into a romantic relationship from the outside so my opinion was only based on how I saw it.

[Joaquin]

UPDATE: she was with her family last night while I was here posting. She came back in good spirits and I shared affection, but as the night went on she got quiet and upset and demanded an apology. I stayed calm and loving and asked her to let it go as I was trying to do so we don’t get stuck. She couldn’t do that and pushed for her apology. I said I see and take responsibility for the role I played and how I could’ve been more mature, but I can’t own the whole exchange bc I feel she played a role as well. I didn’t jump back into the details bc I didn’t want to argue. She remained upset and didn’t respond. I gave her a loving goodnight.

I know today will be rough with heavy dysregulation. I don’t want to accept ownership for more than my share so I’m trying to find the strength not to capitulate, but it’s hard. I know from experience it won’t go away on its own and we'll hafta talk at some point. My plan is to own and apologize for my side but then summarize what I think she should own. Feeling a nervous stomach. Thoughts?

[Joaquin]

SECOND UPDATE: I saw her and she’s dysregulating hard this morning. Looks like she’s been crying, quiet and very upset. I asked if she slept and she said “I don’t wanna talk about it.” This is the kind of thing that FOGs me into capitulating and apologizing. Bracing for the day..

[Notwendy]

From my own experience, any attempt to have her own any part of this behavior is a trip around the triangle.

You might want to consider counseling and/or 12 step codependency groups. I was surprised when a counselor suggested a 12 step group for me, as I thought it was only for alcohol and drug addiction issues, none of which I personally had. But the dynamics of being in a relationship with someone with an addiction are very similar to other disorders, like BPD.

It helped me to recognize my own tendency to jump in and "fix" things and also these circular arguments mimic addictions in the sense that when we are riled up and upset, the transmitters are released. Then, afterwards we feel terrible. This is what was referred to as an emotional hangover, and not getting into this was emotional sobriety.

I learned that these "invitations" or urges to solve issues through discussions served a purpose. Dysregulating, Victim position, helps the pwBPD deal with their emotions. Our "drink" or "drug" is to participate in them because we want to fix things, to feel validation. But it doesn't work and we feel awful afterwards.

You may feel it's unfair to own the whole thing and you should not admit to doing anything you didn't do. But you can validate her feelings "I am sorry you are feeling this way" is an honest validation without admitting.

One of the exercises the sponsor had me do was speak without using thew word "you". It feels awkward but it helps stay out of this mess. It also helped me to have the guidance and emotional support of the sponsor. The 12 step literature has a religious aspect to it "Higher Power" which some people feel uncomfortable with but I have seen it adapted to all religions and even atheists were in our group. It's actually the "God of your own understanding" so you can decide how to interpret that for yourself.

The other slogan we learned was "you got an invitation to the crazy party" (where you both act crazy) but you don't have to attend". I see your wife's statement as this invitation. She says something triggering to you and you jump in-----dysregulation- after which she feels better having gotten rid of her own emotions and you feel terrible.

She may push you to join the party. Just don't. I also like how making amends is part of the 12 steps- how to own your part. You could say "I am sorry about commenting on your choice of fashion. I think it's great that you are motivated to do this to honor our religion and I respect this" and then leave it at that.

You can disengage. I don't condone being untruthful but you can always say you need to go to the bathroom, even if you don't have to "go". You have to go to the bathroom for a moment to yourself to sit there in quiet.

As to the long term outcome of your relationship- that is up to you to decide. With my BPD mother, I don't live with her. I also realize that she's not going to change. It's her BPD that dictates the kind of relationship we have. I don't try to hold her accountable, it does no good. For a romantic, long term situation, I think these ideas help reduce the conflict and circular arguments. Reducing these might then help you think more clearly about other decisions. It's a bit like with alcohol addiction- the first thing is to stop drinking, but the drinking was an escape. Once the person is sober, they then can work on the situation that may have led to them drinking.

So, start with these ideas. And consider support from a counselor or 12 steps if that feels like it would be a good fit for you. I thought it was an odd thing to suggest at first, but found it helpful.

[Joaquin]

NotWendy, this is fantastic. Thank you. You describe it all perfectly and gave me new insight into how she pulls me into the triangle to get back into the victim role bc it’s an easier coping method for her difficult feelings. Your 12-step tips are great.

I just sent a long text apologizing for my role and noting my feelings about the role she played. I reiterated that I care and love her and want to move on. I don’t expect validation for my feelings but at least I voiced them. We’ll see where it goes from here.

From my own experience, any attempt to have her own any part of this behavior is a trip around the triangle.

You might want to consider counseling and/or 12 step codependency groups. I was surprised when a counselor suggested a 12 step group for me, as I thought it was only for alcohol and drug addiction issues, none of which I personally had. But the dynamics of being in a relationship with someone with an addiction are very similar to other disorders, like BPD.

It helped me to recognize my own tendency to jump in and "fix" things and also these circular arguments mimic addictions in the sense that when we are riled up and upset, the transmitters are released. Then, afterwards we feel terrible. This is what was referred to as an emotional hangover, and not getting into this was emotional sobriety.

I learned that these "invitations" or urges to solve issues through discussions served a purpose. Dysregulating, Victim position, helps the pwBPD deal with their emotions. Our "drink" or "drug" is to participate in them because we want to fix things, to feel validation. But it doesn't work and we feel awful afterwards.

You may feel it's unfair to own the whole thing and you should not admit to doing anything you didn't do. But you can validate her feelings "I am sorry you are feeling this way" is an honest validation without admitting.

One of the exercises the sponsor had me do was speak without using thew word "you". It feels awkward but it helps stay out of this mess. It also helped me to have the guidance and emotional support of the sponsor. The 12 step literature has a religious aspect to it "Higher Power" which some people feel uncomfortable with but I have seen it adapted to all religions and even atheists were in our group. It's actually the "God of your own understanding" so you can decide how to interpret that for yourself.

The other slogan we learned was "you got an invitation to the crazy party" (where you both act crazy) but you don't have to attend". I see your wife's statement as this invitation. She says something triggering to you and you jump in-----dysregulation- after which she feels better having gotten rid of her own emotions and you feel terrible.

She may push you to join the party. Just don't. I also like how making amends is part of the 12 steps- how to own your part. You could say "I am sorry about commenting on your choice of fashion. I think it's great that you are motivated to do this to honor our religion and I respect this" and then leave it at that.

You can disengage. I don't condone being untruthful but you can always say you need to go to the bathroom, even if you don't have to "go". You have to go to the bathroom for a moment to yourself to sit there in quiet.

As to the long term outcome of your relationship- that is up to you to decide. With my BPD mother, I don't live with her. I also realize that she's not going to change. It's her BPD that dictates the kind of relationship we have. I don't try to hold her accountable, it does no good. For a romantic, long term situation, I think these ideas help reduce the conflict and circular arguments. Reducing these might then help you think more clearly about other decisions. It's a bit like with alcohol addiction- the first thing is to stop drinking, but the drinking was an escape. Once the person is sober, they then can work on the situation that may have led to them drinking.

So, start with these ideas. And consider support from a counselor or 12 steps if that feels like it would be a good fit for you. I thought it was an odd thing to suggest at first, but found it helpful.

[Joaquin]

UPDATE: I hope I’m not jinxing anything, but we may have hit a new level of progress. One of the hardest things for me has been the dysfunction in conflict resolution. She goes fully into victim mode with any conflict, no matter how gentle and caring I am. Then she dysregulates for days giving me full ownership of the entire argument and all her painful feelings from it. She wants a full apology with no awareness or accountability of her own, then even after I find a way to validate her and give the love she’s demanding she’ll keep spamming me with “be nice don’t be mean to me you have to be nice.” It’s exhausting and highly dysfunctional.

Anyway, this time was different. I sent my text apologizing for my role in the argument and noting the role I felt she played (bc I’m trying to hold the limit of no longer accepting excessive blame or ownership). She responded with a long text of her own; it didn’t give me the validation or apology I might like, but my standards have dropped far below that. It was a mature communication imo and not like the usual defense mechanism of pure blame. We then spend the day mostly apart and while she was dysregulating a lot, she seemed to for the first time keep ownership of those difficult emotions and not dump the blame on me. At night I expected it to regress into the usual spam but it didn’t. She did point out something in my apology that she found hurtful (I validated her feelings on this), and then she kinda moved on without the usual shoving my face into it until I bury her with love and validation.

I’ve been telling her for a while that I can’t take ownership of all the difficult feelings she can’t manage herself. It seems like maybe it got through. Maybe she talked to her T about it and got some tools, idk. I’m still slightly nervous the hammer will drop and fall back into the usual dysfunction, but regardless yesterday was progress.

CAVEAT: I suspect she’s experiencing this as a serious deprivation, having to manage her own feelings without my sponging or owning them for her. That will build resentments in her that I’m sure will come out when she’s dysregulating, how she has to take care of herself and can’t count on me. That could snowball into something big. It’s the cost of having emotional boundaries with a pwBPD I suppose. I’ll do what I can to communicate care and love within these boundaries. 

[garthaz]

My psychiatist said that when she makes strange accusations or tries to get a response, just say Oh or Hmm. If you try to argue, you will lose big time.

[LifewithEase]

"you got an invitation to the crazy party"

This is refreshing.

You might have seen me post that my go to phrase is "you do not own her dysregulation"

T recently said, you don't have to be a monkey in zoo.

Why am I so pulled towards responding? I know deep down inside, I'm angry, exhausted, and I have a big streak of justice in me.

But accepting the invitation, well, it isn't working. I need to go to another party or have my own.

[Notwendy]

Another one is "Not my monkeys, not my circus".