I learned a woman who is a romantic interest is in treatment for BPD

[muppet2008]

I recently learned that a woman who is a romantic interest of mine is in treatment for BPD.  Part of me wants to run as fast as I can. 

That said, I'm divorced and my ex almost certainly has BPD, but was unwilling to obtain treatment.  I have a pretty good idea of how bad it can get.

However, this woman is in treatment; she is prolific on social media and her eyes are noticeably clearer month-to-month.  (All one has to do is look through her history.)

We haven't had sex; we live in different cities.  I'm taking things very slowly yet emotionally we have clicked deeply.  Given that she has such deep similarities with my ex, yet has been willing to get help where my ex wasn't, it's not surprising that we would click quickly and she would be attractive to me.

I have said that I wouldn't automatically say "no" based on her background but that I want to see certain levels of progress before I would consider giving her a ring. 

For example, I said that if she still has BPD rages, that would be a hard "no" from me. 

I said that she needs to work on tolerating the idea that if she chooses me, she is choosing a deeply flawed man and come to peace with loving me anyway, the way I am.  I have said that if I get a whiff that she is putting me on a pedestal more than is typical for the infatuation stage of a relationship, that also is a definite "wait" or maybe "no" and that she needs to work on "splitting" because that destroys marriages.  (My words in the messages I've sent.)

I'm here looking for thoughts and feedback.

* Suggestions, comments, constructive criticism, additions on the above set of explicit boundaries?

* To what degree are these boundaries realistic?

* Am I actually harming her if I stay with her by enabling her to lean on me rather than find her own identity?  Are there specific signals I should be aware of that would help me discern if I'm doing more harm than good?

Ultimately, if I really love her, I will choose what I believe is best for both of our (individual or collective, as appropriate) long-term health.  If that means deciding that I can't choose her because she needs to heal more before she is ready for this kind of relationship, I'm willing to do that. 

That said, I'm guessing that this isn't a clear-cut decision so I'm looking for any available guidance to help me make my choice.


Thanks,
-Muppet08

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[kells76]

Hi muppet2008, welcome to the group  Glad we can be here for you as you work through what you want in your life moving forward.

It certainly makes sense that a BPD diagnosis isn't an automatic No for some people. Being in a relationship with a pwBPD is a personal decision with lots of factors; and, as BPD could be considered a spectrum disorder, the intensity of the traits and behaviors is also a variable in your decision making.

Just a few questions from me to help me understand your situation a little better:

-how long have you known her?

-have you met in person?

-how did you learn that she is in treatment for BPD?

-what do you like about her personality and character?

-are you seeing a counselor or therapist right now?

...

It's smart to ask questions and slow down to learn more before getting into a new relationship, especially one where you suspect BPD is involved.

Have you had a chance to check out more of the site yet? A really good starting place is our article on What Does it Take to Be in a Relationship with a pwBPD. One of the fascinating things about that article is that none of it's about what the pwBPD has to do or not do -- it's all about us (the non-BPD) and our choices. And that might be the bottom line for being in a relationship with a pwBPD -- we can't count on "making" them do anything, or "convincing" them to change, or hoping that ultimatums or "you can't do XYZ" will be motivating. We have to be the emotional leader in the relationship, modeling by our own behavior and choices what we'll allow into our lives.

In fact, the idea of "what we'll allow into our lives" ties in to this thread on Boundaries and Values. Take a look and let us know your thoughts -- there are a couple of posts in it that talk about how our values and boundaries are commitments to ourselves vs requirements of others, and I'd be curious to hear more from you about that idea, especially as it relates to your question of "are these boundaries realistic".

Lots to think about, so I'll wrap it up for now. Again, glad you're here and open to learning more;

kells76

[muppet2008]

> -how long have you known her?

Since late last November.

> -have you met in person?

No.

> -how did you learn that she is in treatment for BPD?

When I became pretty sure it was a part of her background, I asked. 

I already knew that she is in treatment because she has been open about that in her social media posts.  She doesn't talk about it much, but when it's relevant she isn't reluctant to mention it either.

> -what do you like about her personality and character?

Short version:

1) That we share a deep commitment to Christianity and we share a very similar expression of it.  2) That she is very obviously working very hard on herself--both on her specific needs and generally to be the best version of herself she can be.  3) That for the past year, part of that has been to understand who she is as a person and take courageous steps to learn and do challenging new things as a part of developing her identity independent from others around her.

Longer version:

#2 above was the first thing I noticed about her.  She runs an inspirational channel on Instagram and TikTok where she typically posts several times per week.  TikTok's recommendation engine astutely thought I would like what she has to say.

But there are a lot of people with inspirational channels out there.  What attracted me to her channel, and then to her?

I always vet channels before I subscribe, and as I was doing this with her channel I noticed something in her body language that I found fascinating:

I sensed that she was talking to herself first.  Then as I watched more of her clips, I realized that the things she was saying seemed like what one would get by applying a CBT reframe to what a person is really struggling with.

Today if you go to her channel, her bio (along with a lengthier "about this channel" video) confirm that I had read her body language and inferred her source material correctly.

(I was noticing these things last November.  She confirmed my understanding about 3 months ago.)

What this allowed me to do was to reverse engineer the things she was saying back to the kinds of underlying struggles she was facing over time.  It provided what turned out to be a very intimate perspective on her struggles and recovery, as well as her progression over time.  I also noticed that her eyes were becoming noticeably brighter and clearer over time ("her affect") and saw less and less insecurity underlying the things she was saying.  So I knew she must be really doing the work.

That was the first thing that got my attention.  Then I figured out that she is a Christian--and that I would have to level up myself in order to compliment her well, so I did.  Then I reached out, successfully got her attention, and we began communicating directly--but still through social media.  I haven't phoned her yet. 

Two weeks ago, she indicated that she sees us as having a "girlfriend/boyfriend" level of commitment.

Right now I'm thinking that I'll take the step of phoning her, but want to educate myself more around boundaries and things to look for first.  I love the peace of being single and I'm comfortable expressing and articulating specific boundaries and objectives that I feel we need to reach before taking additional steps toward further intimacy.

Educating myself and learning about what those things need to be is why I'm here. 

I don't believe that we will be successful at all without support (including professional support).  If we could be successful with support--and what kind of support/boundaries I/we would need--is the open question I'm here researching.

> -are you seeing a counselor or therapist right now?

Yes.  I've been in recovery for about 15 years now after a toxic work environment shattered me to my core.  At the time I didn't know the existence of the term "gaslight", but experienced that first-hand until I didn't know what way was up, down, left, or right.

Today I've recovered from the depression and most of the anxiety.  I still experience some brain fog when I try to work professionally, but am mostly recovered in that area too.  Looking back, I see how this experience prepared me for:

I'm divorced after 31 years of marriage.  I'm pretty sure my ex was mildly borderline most of our marriage and I learned how to meet her needs.  Before her Final Trigger, we had what I refer to as my Second Honeymoon with her--after I'd done a lot of work to heal my own codependent traits and learn how to meet her emotional needs.

I'm pretty sure that her inability to manage our children, coupled with the death of her dad (who was the source of a lot of her trauma and who never apologized to her or really made anything right between them) triggered her to become extremely Borderline, with a lot of NPD traits as well.

I've been officially single since a year ago this past February (about a year and four months) though I grieved the loss of the marriage far before that because I spent about two years trying to save it. 

Then, even when I was pretty sure it couldn't be saved I still left no stone unturned, performing due diligence, because I wanted to be able to look my ex, my adult sons, and any future potential spouse in the eyes and say that I'd done everything I knew to do. 

It was during this last season that I really grieved the loss of my marriage.

Ultimately, I filed because my ex was insisting that my oldest son apologize for lying and stealing and he had verifiably done neither--and my ex refused to go back to therapy in spite of having uncontrolled extended rages.  This was in spite of the fact that we had been in therapy before and it had been helping. 

But she refused to go back because (in her words) "You just want the therapist to tell me all the things I'm doing wrong."  To which I replied, "I want the therapist to tell me all the things I'm doing wrong.  I have my own issues too and I'm committed to working on me too.  You aren't the only one here with issues; I know I contribute too."  To which she had no reply and still refused to return to therapy.

This isn't the first romantic interest I've had since my divorce, although it's the first person I actively chose.  The first woman chose me; then it became clear quickly that we weren't going to be able to come together as a united-enough whole.  Then she cheated on me, which made that outcome clear.

Specifically, about therapy, I have a regular therapist I see most weeks and I'm in a paid group therapy plan at Circles Support, the online group therapy service.  Both of my therapists have PhDs in psych, and the group therapist has a specific focus on trauma and codependency recovery.

Ultimately, I want to choose someone else who is doing the work on themselves, even if it means we have to move very slowly to get to a place where we are ready to offer ourselves to each as "whole-enough" people.  I want someone who is humble enough to ask for and obtain help and who isn't afraid to talk about their recovery openly. 

I'm aware that in choosing this way, I'm choosing a process over who the person is be today or tomorrow. 

My hope is that with appropriate assistance (e.g.: begin couples therapy as soon as the relationship becomes "serious") that my future spouse and I will be able to head off challenges before they become crises and ultimately be far stronger from having worked through things together. 

With "Belle", I would be choosing someone who is already working her process with grit and dedication.  (Not her real name; yes I'm naming her after the female protagonist from Beauty and the Beast.)

I won't choose someone "hoping" that they will become who I need them to be and who needs any level of motivation to begin that process.  I will choose someone who knows they need the process and is already working on it with dedication.  My hope is that with appropriate professional support, patience, and continued mutual commitment, we will be able to create something very beautiful together.

Everyone has issues.  It's rare to find someone who is already as dedicated to working on themselves as Belle is. 

That said, BPD is a special thing.  I'm acutely aware that it would be foolish to move forward in any way without educating myself more.

I'm currently re-reading "Walking on Eggshells."  I have "I Hate You / Don't Leave Me" but it's in storage right now and inaccessible.  Any other suggested reading is welcomed.

I've already told Belle that if we move forward I want to begin couples therapy immediately.  She agreed to this. 

We aren't moving forward right now because we both have practical things we need to address individually first.  For example, I became unable to work most of 2022 with the stress of my divorce and I need to put my professional life together first.  She has some similar practical concerns. 

I'm okay with taking things slowly, and the physical distance and maintaining Just Enough Communication to maintain connection can help us with that in the meantime.

Thanks for your reply and thanks in advance for your assistance.


Thanks,
-Muppet08

[kells76]

Hey muppet2008, thanks for the background -- it can take a lot to lay it all out in front of "strangers"!

Sharing religious/spiritual values with a potential SO is important, I'm with you there. And reading IHYDLM and SWOE is a solid start. Not sure if you've poked around the site much yet, but we have a book review section that might be helpful for more recommendations. Also, we have a great section on tools and skills workshops -- if you check it out, let us know your thoughts on what resonates with you and is helpful.

...

As we keep understanding your specific situation better, there'll probably be some more questions, so bear with me in the back-and-forth here:

I'm reading that you were married for over 3 decades -- no small amount of time.

-During that time, did your ex ever work outside the home, or volunteer, or attend church, etc? How would you say she was perceived there? Clearly you experienced the BPD-type behaviors and traits; did others?

...

And -- how much of this:

I want to choose someone else who is doing the work on themselves, even if it means we have to move very slowly to get to a place where we are ready to offer ourselves to each as "whole-enough" people.  I want someone who is humble enough to ask for and obtain help and who isn't afraid to talk about their recovery openly.

have you communicated to your potential SO so far?

...

I'll rein it in here 

Again, glad you're here working through these questions.

-kells76

[muppet2008]

Hey muppet2008, thanks for the background -- it can take a lot to lay it all out in front of "strangers"!

Thanks for being here!

Sharing religious/spiritual values with a potential SO is important, I'm with you there. And reading IHYDLM and SWOE is a solid start. Not sure if you've poked around the site much yet, but we have a book review section that might be helpful for more recommendations. Also, we have a great section on tools and skills workshops -- if you check it out, let us know your thoughts on what resonates with you and is helpful.

Thanks for the recommendations!  I felt a bit intimidated by all of the material; this helps me sort through it!

As we keep understanding your specific situation better, there'll probably be some more questions, so bear with me in the back-and-forth here:

I'm reading that you were married for over 3 decades -- no small amount of time.

-During that time, did your ex ever work outside the home, or volunteer, or attend church, etc? How would you say she was perceived there? Clearly you experienced the BPD-type behaviors and traits; did others?

They began around the early-mid 2000s.  Initially, my dad was the main one who noticed--and commented that he felt like he had to walk on eggshells around her.

As her splitting behaviors--and accompanying rages--got worse and worse, by the 2010s, I would regularly come home from work to stories from my sons about how "Mom had another fit in public today."

The story in the New York-Presbyterian documentary of a woman who blew up because a person at a store wouldn't let her use a pen that was out on a table to fill out a form is very characteristic of the kinds of stories I would hear from my sons.

At first I didn't believe my sons.  Later I learned that I was only hearing sanitized versions of what happened from my ex.  By the mid-late 2010s she would do it in front of me while we were out, also, and I no longer found that I had the calming influence I once had.

She hasn't worked outside the home for about 20 years now.   She did fly off once at church, in public, during Sunday School.  She has been unsuccessful making and keeping friends for a good while now.

And -- how much of this:

>>I want to choose someone else who is doing the work on themselves, even if it means we have to move very slowly to get to a place where we are ready to offer ourselves to each as "whole-enough" people.  I want someone who is humble enough to ask for and obtain help and who isn't afraid to talk about their recovery openly.<<

have you communicated to your potential SO so far?

All of it.

After I confirmed she is recovering from BPD, I offered, "I'm guessing that this is where your mind is predicting that I'm going to leave you."

"Yes."

Me: "I chose you because I see you working really hard on yourself and making progress.  Just compare videos you made 3 months ago to the ones you made last week.  To my eyes, the woman who made the ones this past week looks a lot less insecure and a lot more comfortable in her skin.  Her eyes are a lot clearer.  As long as you're already doing--and continue to do--this kind of work I don't see this as a case of "dating for potential" but as a case of "dating for your present reality".

<pause>

Me, continuing, thinking "out loud" in the chat: "How would one manage a relationship with someone recovering from BPD?  I guess that having very specific firm boundaries would be important.  To me, as long as you're doing the work, recovering from BPD by itself isn't a deal breaker.  But I would have very specific expectations for things that would need to be true before I would give you a ring."

Then I gave a few examples--again thinking "out loud".  Here's what I remember right now:

• As soon as we are practically able, we begin couples therapy together.  I would rather nip things in the bud than wait until we have a crisis.
• If you still have BPD rages, that would be a hard "no" from me for a ring, and maybe completely. (My individual therapist cautioned that my pwBPD might read this as a black-and-white she can't ever get angry, which wouldn't be healthy or realistic.)
• Work hard on splitting.  Splitting destroys marriages.  Particularly, if I get even a whiff that you're putting me on a pedestal beyond what normal infatuation does, we wait.  (Almost my exact words; yes I was that blunt.)
• (Not a part of this conversation, but in the past I've also said that I want to see that we can have a fight, repair, and be friends afterward at least a few times before I would give her a ring.)

My general attitude is that I would love it if "she" and "I" can become "us".

Belle has already inspired me to be a better version of myself than I knew was possible through her own determination to work on herself in every way, including her faith but also personally, professionally, her own working on her identity. 

And what quality man wouldn't want that kind of quality influence by his side for the rest of his life?

That said, with my background, I'm under no illusion that this would be easy.

My therapist said it this way, "From your background, I could see you being able to understand and offer someone like Belle compassion in a way few people could.  Due to your own trauma from your wife, she also will likely trigger you in ways few people could."

She wouldn't be the only one needing to do the work for us to be successful.

At this point, if we part ways I have grown so much personally through knowing her that whatever grief I may grieve will be worth it. 

And to be confident but not cocky: I'll know that since I can successfully gain the attention, affection, and commitment of one of the most highly sought after available Christian creators on social media, I have no reason to worry about if I can be attractive to other high-quality women as well.  So no insecurity or neediness here. 

I really hope Belle and I can work things out.  Right now that would be a LOT of work and probably some significant heartache, but ultimately if we stay committed and do the work together with professional help (assuming we are compatible--still a significant "if") I think there are huge upsides for both of us and for everyone we touch.

But in the meantime, I'm back to working on the practical matters I need to settle before I can *think* of being a husband (and father of an additional 4) again.  As is Belle, too.

Thanks in advance for whatever thoughts and feedback you are able to offer.

I'll rein it in here 

Again, glad you're here working through these questions.

-kells76

...and thank you for your thoughts and feedback too!


-Muppet08

[muppet2008]

...and on this:

>>Work hard on splitting.  Splitting destroys marriages.  Particularly, if I get even a whiff that you're putting me on a pedestal beyond what normal infatuation does, we wait.  (Almost my exact words; yes I was that blunt.)<<

I added something like the following:  "Work on allowing yourself to see me as the highly flawed man that I am, allow yourself to feel the tension of recognizing my imperfections--that I'm not perfect, and still choose to love me anyway."

I don't think I bluntly added that I need this before I would offer her a ring aside from what was in the context.

My feeling is that the healthiest way to address her fear of abandonment is to have explicit boundaries--so she knows where she stands and where I feel we need to be as a couple before it would be healthy for me to offer her a ring.  I aspire to a firm, yet gentle and predictable form of leadership here so that she can feel safe over time relaxing into "we" from "me".

As always, thoughts/feedback/critiques welcome.


Thanks,

--Muppet08

[kells76]

And -- how much of this:

>>I want to choose someone else who is doing the work on themselves, even if it means we have to move very slowly to get to a place where we are ready to offer ourselves to each as "whole-enough" people.  I want someone who is humble enough to ask for and obtain help and who isn't afraid to talk about their recovery openly.<<

have you communicated to your potential SO so far?

All of it.

After I confirmed she is recovering from BPD, I offered, "I'm guessing that this is where your mind is predicting that I'm going to leave you."

"Yes."

Me: "I chose you because I see you working really hard on yourself and making progress.  Just compare videos you made 3 months ago to the ones you made last week.  To my eyes, the woman who made the ones this past week looks a lot less insecure and a lot more comfortable in her skin.  Her eyes are a lot clearer.  As long as you're already doing--and continue to do--this kind of work I don't see this as a case of "dating for potential" but as a case of "dating for your present reality".

<pause>

Me, continuing, thinking "out loud" in the chat: "How would one manage a relationship with someone recovering from BPD?  I guess that having very specific firm boundaries would be important.  To me, as long as you're doing the work, recovering from BPD by itself isn't a deal breaker.  But I would have very specific expectations for things that would need to be true before I would give you a ring."

Then I gave a few examples--again thinking "out loud".  Here's what I remember right now:

• As soon as we are practically able, we begin couples therapy together.  I would rather nip things in the bud than wait until we have a crisis.
• If you still have BPD rages, that would be a hard "no" from me for a ring, and maybe completely. (My individual therapist cautioned that my pwBPD might read this as a black-and-white she can't ever get angry, which wouldn't be healthy or realistic.)
• Work hard on splitting.  Splitting destroys marriages.  Particularly, if I get even a whiff that you're putting me on a pedestal beyond what normal infatuation does, we wait.  (Almost my exact words; yes I was that blunt.)
• (Not a part of this conversation, but in the past I've also said that I want to see that we can have a fight, repair, and be friends afterward at least a few times before I would give her a ring.)

My general attitude is that I would love it if "she" and "I" can become "us".

Belle has already inspired me to be a better version of myself than I knew was possible through her own determination to work on herself in every way, including her faith but also personally, professionally, her own working on her identity. 

And what quality man wouldn't want that kind of quality influence by his side for the rest of his life?

That said, with my background, I'm under no illusion that this would be easy.

My therapist said it this way, "From your background, I could see you being able to understand and offer someone like Belle compassion in a way few people could.  Due to your own trauma from your wife, she also will likely trigger you in ways few people could."

She wouldn't be the only one needing to do the work for us to be successful.

At this point, if we part ways I have grown so much personally through knowing her that whatever grief I may grieve will be worth it. 

And to be confident but not cocky: I'll know that since I can successfully gain the attention, affection, and commitment of one of the most highly sought after available Christian creators on social media, I have no reason to worry about if I can be attractive to other high-quality women as well.  So no insecurity or neediness here. 

I really hope Belle and I can work things out.  Right now that would be a LOT of work and probably some significant heartache, but ultimately if we stay committed and do the work together with professional help (assuming we are compatible--still a significant "if") I think there are huge upsides for both of us and for everyone we touch.

But in the meantime, I'm back to working on the practical matters I need to settle before I can *think* of being a husband (and father of an additional 4) again.  As is Belle, too.

Thanks in advance for whatever thoughts and feedback you are able to offer.

...and thank you for your thoughts and feedback too!


-Muppet08

OK, good stuff to know.

Couple of thoughts I'm having.

Key aspects of BPD include:

unstable or no sense of self
desperate attempts to avoid aloneness/abandonment/rejection
"relational/intimacy disorder" (impacts closer relationships more)
not a "cookie cutter" disorder (shows up differently as pwBPD are individuals)

Those are short phrases with a lot packed in. Let's see where we go with those ideas and your situation.

Someone with an incomplete or lacking sense of self has nowhere to turn inside to figure out -- who am I, what's important to me, what choices can I make, what do I have control over. I suspect that not having a sense of self might be terrifying, and that person will do or say or be almost anything in order to have that stability. Getting external feedback from others can "prop up" from the outside what's lacking on the inside.

Not all pwBPD "go for" the same kind of external feedback to "prop up" their lacking inner selves. Sometimes there are urban legends that "all pwBPD lure you in provocatively" or use sexuality to get that positive response. As all pwBPD are different individuals, different pwBPD will approach getting their needs met in different ways.

We have to be open to "facing the facts" that just because a pwBPD seems to share our values for healing, growth, responsibility, etc, doesn't mean that's coming from a genuine inner self able to take responsibility. We need to accept that that might be what the pwBPD is demonstrating in the moment to get positive external feedback to prop up a lacking self and to avoid the fear of aloneness.

"Looking healthier and spiritual" might be equivalent to "being provocative and seductive" for two different pwBPD. The content is different, but the purpose may be the same -- to experience that positive external feedback and support, to try to experience from someone else "you'll never leave me as long as I do what I'm sensing you want, right?"

Sometimes to move forward, we have to "face the facts" about what's really going on in our potential relationships. Not fun, not easy, but without honesty, there's really no chance at success.

It's very possible that your potential SO understands what's important to you, because you've been pretty open about it, and is reflecting it back to you in a way that confirms to you that she's committed to health, in order to meet her need for positive external reinforcement. Is she truly committed? Time will tell. A person in your situation would need to be open to the possibility of being blinded by the allure of being "the only one who truly sees her recovery", the one with special insight into whether she "really means it", the one who notices "the subtle things" like body language and eyes. You may also be having implicit needs met in these interactions -- I wonder if you could articulate those needs?

All that to say -- BPD can be thought of as a disorder of intimacy.

Right now, things are pretty great -- you're at a safe distance from her, and she's able to both control what you see about her, and receive positive feedback.

You're considering stepping up to phone calls, and if you're already talking rings/marriage, then (unless it's an atypical setup!) being together in person is something you want.

Things look pretty good now. If BPD traits and behaviors manifest more the closer people get, and manifest the most in the most intimate relationships, what are some "facing the facts" possibilities you can think of for what that might look like? Your T laid out a couple of possibilities -- maybe those can be springboards for your thoughts ("well, things could go this way, and ABC could happen, also, things could go this other way, and XYZ could happen" etc).

Again, being in a relationship with a pwBPD is a personal choice . At the end of the day, you're the one living your life, not anyone else. For a relationship with a pwBPD to have more of a chance of success, really looking at ourselves -- especially questions like: what keeps drawing me to pwBPD for relationships? can I be realistic about the dynamic going on right now? -- is so important.

...

Lots to put together, so I'll wrap it up there. Would especially be interested in your thoughts on the mirroring link from above, re: your current dynamics.

Up for the challenge? 


(p.s. we haven't talked much about social media and pwBPD, but that's at play in your guys' situation, I'm thinking)

[muppet2008]

Thank you very much for your detailed thoughts and reply!  Here's a brief reply, then I'm going to take a look at the "mirroring" link and see what I find there.

Looking back to my initial message, I think a lot of the (excellent and apt) points you raise boil down to my last specific question in that message:

>>* Am I actually harming her if I stay with her by enabling her to lean on me rather than find her own identity?  Are there specific signals I should be aware of that would help me discern if I'm doing more harm than good?

Ultimately, if I really love her, I will choose what I believe is best for both of our (individual or collective, as appropriate) long-term health.  If that means deciding that I can't choose her because she needs to heal more before she is ready for this kind of relationship, I'm willing to do that. <<

(Particularly the "specific signals" part.)

My individual therapist suggested that if we start couples' therapy, this would be a good question to ask our therapist.  But maybe people here with more BPD-specific experience would be able to offer some concrete suggestions?

You asked a good question about my own needs.  I'm aware that we tend to pick people who are like our former partners after failed relationships because subconsciously we still want to "fix" things.

There's definitely a lot of seduction in the idea that she could be like my ex, but actively getting help, so I could give her what I wanted to give my ex but never could because she wouldn't get help.  The biggest grief I carry about my failed marriage is that my ex wouldn't go back and get help because we were getting better during the six month season where she and I were in couples therapy--to the point where we no longer needed the therapist to resolve conflicts.  I just wish she would have been willing to pick that back up...

Part of why I'm here is because I'm aware that I am vulnerable to being blinded by this kind of seduction, and I want a more-objective expert outside perspective as a means of holding myself accountable.

Thanks for being faithful to do this so far.  It's why I'm here and I seriously value your candor and willingness to challenge me.


--Muppet08

[muppet2008]

We have to be open to "facing the facts" that just because a pwBPD seems to share our values for healing, growth, responsibility, etc, doesn't mean that's coming from a genuine inner self able to take responsibility. We need to accept that that might be what the pwBPD is demonstrating in the moment to get positive external feedback to prop up a lacking self and to avoid the fear of aloneness.

Very true.  Part of why I'm here.

"Looking healthier and spiritual" might be equivalent to "being provocative and seductive" for two different pwBPD. The content is different, but the purpose may be the same -- to experience that positive external feedback and support, to try to experience from someone else "you'll never leave me as long as I do what I'm sensing you want, right?"

Also true.  If that's the case, she had been doing this for a good six-to-nine months before I encountered her social media feed.  A thing I've wondered is how much of what she projects on social media reflects her aspirational goals versus actual reality.

Aspirational goals could mean anything from, "I've realized that a certain kind of man is more likely to be the kind of man who wouldn't abandon me," to "I can see how these kinds of qualities are more attractive because they are just more healthy--for me and for my man."

The former would be still coming from a very selfish BPD frame of mind.  The latter would indicate that a person has made some steps toward developing a genuine sense of self, set of values, etc.

Sometimes to move forward, we have to "face the facts" about what's really going on in our potential relationships. Not fun, not easy, but without honesty, there's really no chance at success.

Precisely why I'm here.  I value mirrors over mirroring.  :D

A person in your situation would need to be open to the possibility of being blinded by the allure of being "the only one who truly sees her recovery", the one with special insight into whether she "really means it", the one who notices "the subtle things" like body language and eyes.

Precisely why I'm here.  I value mirrors over mirroring.  And echoes over echoing.  :D

Sometimes others see and hear in us things we can't see or hear in ourselves.

More directly, though, I'm definitely not her only suitor who sees her recovery.  I'm also pretty sure it's genuine on some level based on things she did and said prior to when I knew her and why she did it.

A bit more context: She is divorced because her ex had an affair and decided he would rather be with his side chick.  She took this as a wakeup call to work on herself, stopped "drowning her trauma in alcohol" (her words), began therapy, and so on.

Her social media history goes back at least to mid-college (that's as far back as I went when I was vetting her).

What I don't know is how deep her recovery is at this point.

Another option you didn't bring up is that she's operating from "I don't want to ever feel this pain again," referring to the pain of her husband having an affair and her subsequent divorce.

That's a good starting place, but I feel that it's a wake-up call--not a healthy whole place from which to build a foundation for a relationship to last a lifetime.  When we experience these kinds of wake-up calls, we need to move beyond the fear of a repeat toward a set of values from which we operate because we genuinely believe they are the healthiest thing for us and for others.

Again, I can't say yet how far she is down that path or if she ever will get there.  We aren't close enough yet for me to know. 

I'm pretty sure that if she hasn't made that transition from fear-based motivation to values-based motivation in at least a few important areas, that any attempt on my part to have a committed relationship with her is more likely to harm her than help.

This brings me back full-circle again... 

You're considering stepping up to phone calls, and if you're already talking rings/marriage, then (unless it's an atypical setup!) being together in person is something you want.

From where I sit, being together in person would be critical for me to be able to evaluate her more objectively.  All of the observations you made about the distance creating safety seem apt.

I would want to attend the same church for a season and not always be together:

I'd like to see how others interact with her from a distance.  I'd like to notice how her kids (4 of them; late grade-school age up to age 16) interact around her--particularly in settings where I'm not standing next to her.  Do they act happy-go-lucky like normal kids that age?  Are they relaxed or is their nervous system activated like they're walking on eggshells around her (like my sons were with my ex)?  I would like to talk with other musicians and find out what she's like to work with in the band.  Does she have a healthy set of friends at church?

I'm deeply afraid of becoming a Favorite Person and idealized/idolized again.  That's too much pressure for anyone!

I'm also deeply afraid of being blinded to what's there.

At the same time, if she has done enough of the work where she could begin to enter into a healthy relationship, I don't want BPD to be a scarlet letter that ostracizes her forever either.

And that "If" is the 10 million dollar question...

Can I be realistic about the dynamic going on right now? -- is so important.

Indeed.  By myself, I probably can't be.  That's why I'm here.

Lots to put together, so I'll wrap it up there. Would especially be interested in your thoughts on the mirroring link from above, re: your current dynamics.

I don't see a lot of difference in the posts from before I knew her and after I knew her--or even more recently.  Her DMs with me also have been consistent with the growth trajectory I've seen from the time she had her "wake-up call" to the present.  She has also been publicly candid about things she did in her marriage that she doesn't want to do any longer.  This has happened regularly and consistently since a good six months before I encountered her social media account.

So, like I said earlier, I'm less concerned about "mirroring" than about projecting a persona that she thinks would be more attractive than the person she used to be but doesn't reflect who she genuinely is today.

I want to see a person who is genuinely developing her own value system that she believes in and will fight for.  I want someone who will challenge me from her own (sometimes wildly differing) value system and with whom I can have robust debate without it becoming personal or losing respect for each other.

In order to have that, she has to have begun developing her own identity and set of beliefs.  Otherwise, I'll wind up being able to steamroll her.  I don't want that.

I have a strong personality, so ultimately I'll need someone else who knows who she is, what she believes in, and who isn't afraid to respectfully match wits together with the result that we don't have to agree, and we grow closer as a result of the debate--especially if the end result is that we still don't agree.

I'm imagining that in the hands of a skilled couples' therapist, my strong personality could become a vehicle to help Belle develop this way.  But I don't see how this is possible unless she already has developed this way quite a bit during the months of therapy she has already done.

Come to think of it, this might be a good compatibility test: deliberately explore topics that are controversial and see if she always winds up agreeing with me...  Hmmmm...

Up for the challenge? 

This is the one question I can answer with certainty:

I can't possibly know yet.  :P

Further (and this is the real question to me):

I don't know if it's even wise to try to be up to this challenge.

That said:

Thanks!  I do value and appreciate you being a sounding board and helping to keep me honest--especially with myself!


Thanks again!
-Muppet

[BPDEnjoyer]

From what you posted, it's all positive traits.  You are idealizing her right now and you haven't even met yet. 

[muppet2008]

From what you posted, it's all positive traits.  You are idealizing her right now and you haven't even met yet. 

Well, you did ask what I *like* about her, not what things concern me.   :P

She has been pretty candid about the things she's working on.  Here are a few she has called out along with a few things I question/have concerns about myself:

• Negativity / a general negative outlook on life; she says she has (mostly) overcome this.  Without getting closer, that would be impossible to say.
• Her identity as an individual distinct from others around her.  It's why she's pursuing a new career, going to school, etc.  I'm glad for this.  Yet, this isn't a quick fix.  The new career may not satisfy like she thinks it will.  I don't know yet if she has developed enough emotional resilience to try a few things until she finds what really works for her; realistically, that's probably what it will take.
• A history of alcoholism (though she says she's put down the bottle); yet still, that history probably indicates unhealthy patterns of avoidance
• I worry about (though don't have evidence for or against) there being a favorite child / scapegoat pattern in the family dynamics.
• She hasn't spoken directly about depression, but it's a concern.  Just, because, the odds with BPD...
• I worry about unresolved anger toward a father or one-or-more significant male figures in her life.  This (combined with how deep her recovery is right now) is probably my biggest fear.

Thanks,
-Muppet

[kells76]

Hi again muppet2008, couple more thoughts here...

Going right back up to the start of your thread:

I recently learned that a woman who is a romantic interest of mine is in treatment for BPD.  Part of me wants to run as fast as I can.

...

I'm here looking for thoughts and feedback.

* Suggestions, comments, constructive criticism, additions on the above set of explicit boundaries?

* To what degree are these boundaries realistic?

* Am I actually harming her if I stay with her by enabling her to lean on me rather than find her own identity?  Are there specific signals I should be aware of that would help me discern if I'm doing more harm than good?

Ultimately, if I really love her, I will choose what I believe is best for both of our (individual or collective, as appropriate) long-term health.  If that means deciding that I can't choose her because she needs to heal more before she is ready for this kind of relationship, I'm willing to do that. 

That said, I'm guessing that this isn't a clear-cut decision so I'm looking for any available guidance to help me make my choice.

Maybe we can re-equilibrate here to find the best area for you to get some feedback.

You're in a unique situation for the "Bettering a relationship" board in that -- if I'm tracking with everything -- you are pondering entering a relationship, vs being in a current relationship, or seeking to re-enter a previous relationship.

And I think, as I re-read your initial post, you're looking for "let's talk about potential pros and cons" type feedback?

What are your thoughts about taking this thread to the "conflicted" board, which has space for "should I or shouldn't I" type discussions? One of the  Bettering board guidelines in play right now, which may be limiting the type of feedback you're getting, is that "run", "leave", and "don't do it" -type messages aren't in scope.

This isn't to say "you should do X" or "you shouldn't do X" -- more to give you some information to check out, so you can decide if Bettering is working okay for your situation or if you'd like to try something different. Your call either way -- just let us know your perspective.

-kells76