I am not sick, I don’t need help

[thankful person]

Hi all,

The topic title is a book by Xavier Amador and I would like to recommend this book to anyone who has a delusional pwbpd in their lives. Thank you so much Kells for recommending this book. A really good quote from it is:

“When you’re facing someone who rigidly holds irrational beliefs, you gain nothing by disagreeing.”

I had realised some time ago just how delusional my wife is. I like to make the distinction of borderline meaning on the borderline between milder mental disorders such as depression and anxiety, and major psychotic hallucinatory conditions like schizophrenia. My wife does not hallucinate as in seeing/hearing things that aren’t there. But sometimes her grasp of reality and her memories are extremely warped and it has helped me to realise how sick she is.

The book is essentially mostly about schizophrenic patients who refuse to take their medications because they don’t believe there’s anything wrong with them. It just takes a little bit of understanding to realise why they feel this way. It teaches basic principles used in any situation where you’re having to persuade a person. I have always had an interest in persuasion, being a teacher and working with many people with special needs, I know the best way to get someone to do something is to get them to want to do it. I liken this to the old parable where the sun and the wind battle to get a man to take his coat off, and of course the sun wins by making him hot…by making him want to. My wife has proved my biggest challenge yet. It is odd that I’ve studied and worked so much in behaviour modification but it was like I was up against a brick wall with her. I am used to people with autism (actually I relate to them very well) but bpd has been a whole new ball game.

On top of what I have been working on the past couple of years (validation and not JADEing - to not justify, argue, defend or explain), this book has helped me. Despite the fact that my wife is abusive at times, it still helps to understand that her treatment of me comes from a place of delusional thinking. I do not believe her to be deliberately cruel, it is not her fault that she can’t sometimes see how much I love her and that I am a good person always trying my best. My wife is currently trying to find a job and I am supporting this process every step of the way even though she is just getting knocked back at every corner with no qualifications and very poor employment history. I will support her up to the point where she actually asks me to quit my job, where I will not do this for financial and career reasons, but for childcare purposes she blames me for her failure to find a job because she needs me to look after our kids while she works. I totally can imagine if I were to quit my job, her quitting hers after a couple of weeks/months/days.. I just can’t trust her, but I’m treating her seriously. I used to use the word “ridiculous” with her all the time before I joined bpd family and I now realise that this was disrespectful of her vision of reality, skewed as it may be.

My wife also wanted to book a holiday over New Year. I know it will never be the romantic paradise she envisages where our relationship is suddenly perfect and we have time for each other (we have 3 small kids and of course they’re coming!)…, but I am intending to enjoy it for myself anyway and hope the kids enjoy it. What I meant to say was, we negotiated a budget where she was convinced we’d never find anywhere… but then we did so for once we are actually doing something where she hasn’t overspent…

Sorry if I’m waffling on (haha is that a British expression or what?!) My wife has bafflingly seemed to come out of her year long split of me, but the point I’m trying to make about the work and the holiday is that we have somehow managed to avoid having a huge row over any of it, and I credit Amador’s book for this reason, along with everything I’ve learnt from you amazing people.

Thank you as always for your support.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[Notwendy]

I think you are correct about not trying to "talk some sense" into a delusional person. I think that is one reason my BPD mother feels invalidated a lot and she seems to want to get people to agree with her as a form of validation. She will make a point about something and then attempt to elicit my agreement.

So while disagreeing isn't effective- where do you draw the line between following a delusion and your own reality? I think keeping that line is a challenge. If one can not disagree with a delusion- and you go along with it as much as possible, then the delusional person takes the lead and you follow.

There was a line in a Dr. Phil show where the entire family was focused on one disordered family member. The disordered person was in control. His response- "you are all lost in the woods and looking at a disordered person to lead you out".

That is how it felt growing up in my family. BPD mother's feelings were the focus and it seemed that my father fulfilled her requests regardless of the cost or if they didn't make sense.  Like you, Dad was the main wage earner but how the money was spent was according to BPD mother's ideas.

What created additional conflict is when we became teens and had our own sense of reality and judgement. So we either argued with BPD mother or followed the "family rule" and suspended it. If BPD mother did something that we knew wasn't in the norm, we couldn't dare say anything about it.

So there were the "we need this holiday to save the marriage" holidays that didn't accomplish that and various purchases.  She wanted a computer and so asked a neighborhood kid what a good computer was. Of course his reply was a gaming computer with all the functions he would want on it. But BPD mother mostly uses one for emails and online shopping. I went to the store with Dad to get her a computer. There was one on sale that would be perfect for her and I suggeted it. Dad- snapped at me. "No we have to get her the exact computer she wants".

Because any other computer would have been a disaster, but BPD mother's need for a top of the line gaming computer makes no practical sense- but trying to explain that to her would not be possible.

I also posted on another thread that BPD mother kept a car for years after she stopped driving. But if we dared to say "but you don't drive" she would become enraged and say she could drive if she wanted to. This included keeping up the insurance on it, car maintanance, having other people drive it to keep it going, license plate and car taxes- all because of this idea she had.

So where is the line between indulging a delusion and causing financial harm? I think these lines were blurry at times. It is good you have drawn the line at not quitting your job.

[thankful person]

Hi not Wendy, absolutely, things will continue to remain and present new challenges I know. I completely understand and relate to your experiences of your mother’s car and her computer too. I feel comforted that you and the bpd family are all out there and ready to talk and listen, since I have seemingly accepted I’m not getting any comfort from my wife then I feel stronger because any expectations of a “normal” relationship are gone.

My wife has predictably got impatient with her options and is now overwhelmed with the prospect of becoming a Christmas elf, supermarket interview, voluntary school placement and new childcare course to study, all happening at once. We will see how it all turns out, but again I have no expectations that she will even show up to be an elf (her dream job) or do the course or anything. I have not agreed to quit any of my work.

I actually forgot to caretake her this morning (whoops?). My wife was vomiting in the night, she says she’s sick but I suspect the latest “skinny jabs” combined with eating too much could be it. Anyway… this morning I got the dogs and kids sorted as usual and my wife got up. And I left for work. She didn’t want to kiss me goodbye because she’s jealous that she thinks the baby now wants me and not her and he gets upset when I leave. She rang me almost immediately after I left, to complain that she needs to stay in bed cos she’s sick and I didn’t even offer to stay home today or take the girls to nursery. She said she’s not going to be able to get them there cos she’s too sick. I did offer to turn around and come home to which I knew she’d say no because of course she needs to remain the victim here. Anyway I rang her at lunch to see how’s she’d getting on and she was fine, it was like nothing had happened. So I’m glad I went to work and didn’t lose income over this. I’m glad I didn’t stop to wonder whether she was well enough to cope without me. Oh and miraculously she did manage to get the girls to nursery.

[Notwendy]

Good that you went to work. I have mentioned before that doing too much for BPD mother ( due to her getting stressed with tasks) actually led to more incompetence and lowered her self esteem which she managed by "needing" things and attention. Stepping out and letting your wife manage ( when it doesn't endanger the kids) showed you, and her, that she can manage.

[thankful person]

Not Wendy, as you know, these pwbpd’s have us questioning our sanity. I did spend the day dwelling on the fact that sometimes people’s partners offer to take time off work to help out with the kids etc when their spouse is sick… and wondering whether I should have done this and how would I know when I should do this. But common sense tells me that I’m a kind and caring person and I would just know when this is required. It’s just hard when you’re getting screamed at, “YOU only care about WORK!!! You NEVER stop to think about ME!!!”  Incidentally I did have to leave work early today because my wife was throwing up again and I had to go and collect the kids from nursery. She has now looked it up for herself and realised the weight loss injections are probably to blame (she got them at a beauty parlour not medical clinic but apparently it’s the same product you’d get from a doctor). Anyway she has cancelled them. She has identified that she is depressed and has a problem with overeating and (the wrong foods) she is now looking into hypnotherapy which I think sounds like a good thing to try as she won’t do talk therapy. I’m so frustrated though, like I think this elf job would bring her joy and confidence but I really don’t think she’s going to do it and I don’t know where to bother trying to change her mind as it’s so darn impossible.

[Notwendy]

She seems similar to my BPD mother in this way- there seems to always be an external reason for her own emotional discomfort and and external "solution"- a job, a vacation, a computer, something that someone has to do for her, that she focuses on. The "solution" fails because it isn't the solution in the first place. The "reason" for her own internal discomfort isn't the reason either. It's what she has projected her feelings on to.

This is a pattern in our family- the focus on the "solution" which Dad would make available usually- and after a moment of what seemed like calm- it would be another "solution".

I agree this can make one doubt their sanity. I think it's important to have a grip on reality-your job and people at work is one area where you can see that.

The denial is frustrating- my BPD mother has a mental illness, whether or not she knows it. Understandably that it is difficult. She has her strong points too. There are times where she seems completely lucid and fine and that is part of what makes one doubt their sanity- when there is the capacity for clarity. I guess that is why it's called borderline. I know an aquaintance who has schitzophrenia. If she doesn't take her medicine- the disorder is obvious- she says things that are obviously not real. They may seem real to her but we know they are not. Her family and friends know that if this happens, she needs to be taken to medical care as soon as possible. With BPD- somehow it seems closer to reality.

[thankful person]

Not Wendy, I know right, like how did my wife get offered not just an elf job but the leading most important elf that gets to be in the grotto with Santa? She interviewed well for it, despite her lack of work history, she sold them on her very limited customer service experience by explaining with confidence how she had calmed many an irate customer in the past. Then she pulls out the day before she’s due to start. Apparently she now says she was punishing herself. Because she was rejected for a childcare apprenticeship because her maths and English are not up to standard, she convinced herself she wasn’t good enough to be a frikn elf and quit. And yet she still wants me to quit work to give her the opportunity to full time work and study. Inside I’m screaming, that’s ridiculous. But then of course she knows I don’t have faith in her so she accuses me of exactly this. And so it continues… Sad as it is, I really wanted her to be an elf so that I could spend some time with the kids without her.

[SaltyDawg]

TP,

Thanks for sharing, sounds very interesting, so I got myself a copy...


The topic title is a book by Xavier Amador and I would like to recommend this book to anyone who has a delusional pwbpd in their lives. .... A really good quote from it is:

“When you’re facing someone who rigidly holds irrational beliefs, you gain nothing by disagreeing.”

Thank you for sharing.  I find my wife only thinking that way when she is triggered and is irrational - when she is rational we can make some progress.  When she is irrational she doesn't think anything is wrong; however, when she is rational, she knows something is wrong, but really cannot put a finger on it.  It definitely reminds me of the video it's not about the nail - which 90 second nutshell is the relationship I have with my wife... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg


But sometimes her grasp of reality and her memories are extremely warped and it has helped me to realise how sick she is.

I have the same/similar perception of my wife.  My couple's T is trying to convince me otherwise.  Circling back to the video, if I empathise with my wife on 'how hard it is' things are good, but when I mention the obvious issue, she blows up, sometimes just like the video, but previously it was a lot more aggressive with raging anger, which I think you might describe as screeching.


It teaches basic principles used in any situation where you’re having to persuade a person. I have always had an interest in persuasion, being a teacher and working with many people with special needs, I know the best way to get someone to do something is to get them to want to do it. I liken this to the old parable where the sun and the wind battle to get a man to take his coat off, and of course the sun wins by making him hot…by making him want to. My wife has proved my biggest challenge yet. It is odd that I’ve studied and worked so much in behaviour modification but it was like I was up against a brick wall with her. I am used to people with autism (actually I relate to them very well) but bpd has been a whole new ball game.

I love your analogy about the sun, and I am pretty much doing something similar with my wife - I will be moving this book up to the next one in my reading list based on this description and use the art of persuasion in the manner that you spoke of.


Despite the fact that my wife is abusive at times, it still helps to understand that her treatment of me comes from a place of delusional thinking. I do not believe her to be deliberately cruel, it is not her fault that she can’t sometimes see how much I love her and that I am a good person always trying my best.

I feel the same way towards my wife and treat my wife the same way.


My wife also wanted to book a holiday over New Year. I know it will never be the romantic paradise she envisages where our relationship is suddenly perfect and we have time for each other (we have 3 small kids and of course they’re coming!)…, but I am intending to enjoy it for myself anyway and hope the kids enjoy it. What I meant to say was, we negotiated a budget where she was convinced we’d never find anywhere… but then we did so for once we are actually doing something where she hasn’t overspent…

I am so proud of you, implementing a new boundary of not overspending - 'good on ya'.  I know this has been a sore point of contention for you in the past, and it would seem that you have made some good progress here.

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My wife has predictably got impatient with her options and is now overwhelmed with the prospect of becoming a Christmas elf, supermarket interview, voluntary school placement and new childcare course to study, all happening at once.

That can be daunting for a neurotypical (non-BPD) person.  If the topic comes up, encourage her to pick one of those and run with it instead of trying everything all at once.


I have not agreed to quit any of my work.

Don't quit your work - since you have worked hard to be where you are at.  I know that you know your budget, and your earning is larger than hers.  Use the 'art of persuasion' to guide her to make the right choices - while I didn't have the specific name, I had learned how to do this already and was implementing within my couple's T with my wife.


She rang me almost immediately after I left, to complain that she needs to stay in bed cos she’s sick and I didn’t even offer to stay home today or take the girls to nursery. She said she’s not going to be able to get them there cos she’s too sick. I did offer to turn around and come home to which I knew she’d say no because of course she needs to remain the victim here. Anyway I rang her at lunch to see how’s she’d getting on and she was fine, it was like nothing had happened. So I’m glad I went to work and didn’t lose income over this. I’m glad I didn’t stop to wonder whether she was well enough to cope without me. Oh and miraculously she did manage to get the girls to nursery.

I find more often than not, there needs to be drama.  I have chosen not to engage in her drama, by 'grey rocking' or not JADEing, so the drama triangle becomes a drama point with nowhere to go.  And, as you noted, she got along just fine without you being part of that triangle. 

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But common sense tells me that I’m a kind and caring person and I would just know when this is required. It’s just hard when you’re getting screamed at, “YOU only care about WORK!!! You NEVER stop to think about ME!!!” 

Don't let that lie give you any 2nd thoughts, you know that is a false statement, I don't defend myself when my wife tells me something similar as I know it is no more true that there is a pink elephant in the same room with me.  I usually ignore it (unless the couple's T validates it in a therapy session, then I have to defend it, which is frustratingly slow) when outside of therapy as I know it is false; however, I do validate her feeling that is 'frustrating to feel that way', but I don't validate the invalid of the facts not matching her feelings. 


I was going to suggest using 'persuasion' to get the 'elf job'; however, your most recent post indicates that she got it, and then quit  before she even started - that sounds very frustrating for you.

Well, I just bought the Kindle version of the book, there is also an extensive excerpt (over half of the book, key chapters) for those who cannot pay at https://www.nami.org/getattachment/Learn-More/Mental-Health-Conditions/Related-Conditions/Anosognosia/I_am_not_sick_excerpt.pdf?lang=en-US and there is also a YT video that discusses this as well at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmM_6bd5ULw

[Notwendy]

Like your wife, my BPD mother could present herself well if she had tried to get a job, but the follow through-and actual doing it- that is a different skill set.

My parents married at a time when most women were "housewives" and working outside the home was not expected of her. She had a friend who was active in the "women's movement"- the friend was in the workforce and was very accomplished. BPD mother embraced this idea- but didn't enter the workforce.

After we kids grew up and left home, we encouraged her to do something she might like. She went back to school to get certified for a job, earned mostly A's. We were very encouraging and also hopeful. Maybe she'd be happy--- well it was another chasing the external solution for her feelings. She didn't pursue a job. She also tried volunteer work but didn't stay with it.

I think this is another version of setting sights on something external as a solution for how they are feeling. I think it's also a part of identity. I think for many of us, a job is a source of accomplishment in additon to bringing in income. Understandable they may wish for that too. I think anxiety and difficulty with executive function get in the way of holding a job. It is frustrating as when someone has intelligence- we assume capability but this seems disconnected with BPD mother.

It takes emotional energy and boundaries to hold on to your sanity sometimes. It's easier to just give in and avoid the conflict- but this reinforces the behavior that gets them what they want- and similarly to letting a kid eat sweets for dinner so they don't tantrum, isn't ultimately good for everyone. As the book you mentioned states- it is probably impossible to change the mindset of someone with disordered thinking, so you have to hold the line on not agreeing to things that would cause harm, like quitting your job.

[thankful person]

You’ll see I started a new topic on this just now… I had an ironic chuckle to myself earlier, when it struck me: pwbpd are actually more delusional than pw schizophrenia. If with schizophrenia all you need to do is convince them to take their meds… which pretty much keeps them sane... Bpd is far more complicated… not Wendy, your mother seems so much like my wife. Was she happy with your town and home?

[Notwendy]

I don't think my mother has ever been happy in any place we have lived,  and there's been something external to blame. We did move sometimes- due to my father's job- but there isn't anywhere where BPD mother's feelings were different- because- they are connected to her, not the place or house she may be in.

I think there is delusion with BPD but it's harder to discern than someone who has psychosis so pwBPD function out of people's radar. My BPD mother has moments where she appears so clear and lucid, it makes me question myself sometimes. I have concluded that even when she appears lucid, she still has BPD- it just looks lucid in the moment.