Well looks like divorce is finally happening Pt. 2

[mikejones75093]

This is a boundary issue. It's also Karpman triangle dynamics. She's made your D her confidant and triangulating. My BPD mother did that too when I was a teen- say things one shouldn't be sharing with a teen. I

It's hard to know if your wife's intent is to harm you or to just make herself feel better but either way- this isn't an appropriate discussion with a teen.

What I can recall is that it did give me a sense of adulthood as a teen and teens want to have that "adulthood" but it's actually parentification. Teens also get angry at their parents and at times don't like their parents- but ideally parents are aligned and don't triangulate- so the teen can be angry-but at both of them.

Parental alienation is a serious situation. I don't know much about that but I do know that whatever BPD mother said to me about my father didn't turn me against him.

IMHO, I would not tell your D you went through her phone. I think she'd be very angry about that. She may have been venting to your wife in the moment. She may not "like" you in the moment. Teens can be like that. Focus on consistency and trust with her- try to do things together if she will do that- connect with her interests if you can. Whatever she is feeling in the moment- let her know you love her unconditionally. She's seen your behavior and also her BPD mother's behavior- she may not understand it well at her age.

Well I already went through her phone and told her.  Let her know it's not her fault and that we all lover.

When she's with me she is constantly texting with her mom so I decided it's time to limit.  If she's away and needs a phone great but at home 30 minutes then put it down.  My D was recording me and sending it to my ex thinking she was helping her mom.  I was just telling my son he needs to clean his room or no video games,  told him if he acts like a baby he will be treated as one.  She thinks I caused this divorce because I'm a substance abuser, I'm not, that's my ex bs allegations.  It sucks.  Going to see my counselor on Monday and talk to her about getting my daughter in.

[mikejones75093]

Document the alienation.  If you can, take photos where your wife is disparaging you towards your daughter.  Document it all, but only keep the 3 worst for your attorney to share with the court as you want to limit costs, and you will have more examples, if you are asked.

I did.  I don't really know how bad it is, but it upsets me.

Ex told D she doesn't trust me and never will, D agreed.  All because we didn't have time to drive by ex house and pick up an Amazon package.

Told my D she doesn't want to be around my family so not to invite them to her sporting events.   D agreed then got upset when her grandfather told her he'd love to come watch her play.

Told D that I don't understand that when I'm mean to my ex she doesn't want to be around me.

Ex told D hangout with people that don't hold me accountable and pat me on the back.  D then called me a grumpy old man that does doesn't want to be around .

Makes me sound completely horrible.  All of this because I asked her to clean her room or told her we weren't eating fast food.  Just a damn joke.  Funny because ex doesn't talk to any of her family, her older child included.  I have a big family and we all do things together, she said we are a bunch of narcissists and gas lighters in denial.

[Skip]

Makes me sound completely horrible.  All of this because I asked her to clean her room or told her we weren't eating fast food.  Just a damn joke.  Funny because ex doesn't talk to any of her family...

mikejones, you aren't going to like me saying this, but I have your best interests at heart.

You have to man up.

Now.

For the kids.

No more drama.

No matter how well deserved, your resentment will not serve you well.

Imagine you had a family puppy, and you let it outside, and a car ran it over, and it was holding onto life. Kids would be devastated and want more than anything to save that puppy.

Well, your kids are in that hell right now. Their whole has crumbled, and the two people they love and trust the most are in conflict and they have no idea how to navigate any of this. Mom's a sympathetic puppy right not because she's been pushed out of the house and the kids are worried for her.

You've got to attend to their needs. Now is not the time to teach them chores and responsibility or be strict. Now is the time tobe relaxed and understanding and help them through the worst time of their life. Giving them some liberties is OK - there will be plenty of time to tighten things up later.

You wouldn't disparage or kick the puppy - don't disparage or kick their mom.

Call a therapist and get in there and get some advice on what you need to be doing and not doing.

You are blessed, man. I have not seen another man on this site keep the house and get 50/50 visitation in temporary orders. You hold all the cards. You have a clear path to surviving/thriving this divorce, but you can blow this advantage.

You'll kick yourself for decades if you do 

[ForeverDad]

I've scanned my posts on your topic and noticed there is one important aspect I didn't mention.  Your children, especially if already caught it an alienation web, need help, far more than you can do alone.

May I suggest a very timely and important aid for your children?  Counseling.  I'm not talking about for the parents, while it's too late for couple's therapy, individual counseling couldn't hurt.  I'm talking about counseling for the children.

Would your stbEx oppose the children having counseling?  Here are a few pointers:

• Give a heads up to the school counselors so they can begin a dialogue and monitor the children's needs.
• My lawyer always exclaimed, "Courts love counseling!"  If your spouse is likely to oppose then include a request of counseling for the children.  Courts very likely will order it even if one parent opposes the concept.
• Do more than just request counseling, use a strategy that has worked well for us here.  Build a list of recommended and respected children's counselors.  Then present the list at the right time to the court and allow the ex to pick from your vetted list.  (1) Court will like it since it shows you're willing to involve both parents in the selection.  (2) You will be happy since your ex's predictable inclination, if she was choosing counselors, would be to pick inexperienced, biased or gullible counselors to be ex's negative advocates.  Instead she would be limited to your short list of vetted counselors.

If you haven't already requested counseling for the children, then work with your lawyer to make it happen.

[SaltyDawg]

Mike,

   I am not going through a divorce, and my wife and I are supposedly working towards reconciling, and our D17 has a lot of similar type conversations with me and my BPDw.  I feel a a lot of what you shared is normal behavior for a teenage daughter.  I will draw some parallels to my own situation on how our D17 treats both me and my wife when our D has nearly identical feelings and how I handle it differently, by example.

Ex told D she doesn't trust me and never will, D agreed.  All because we didn't have time to drive by ex house and pick up an Amazon package.

My wife has shared that directly with me, within earshot of our D17, that she 'doesn't trust me,' and I explain, it was through my wife's actions that I behaved that way where I set aside a divorce attorney retainer fee in response to her divorce threats, and my wife tells me she cannot trust me because I squirreled away $5k in cash by not depositing extra overtime I did, so my wife didn't notice it.  While not specifically directed to DD, I did not consider this to be overtly disparaging, as my wife was expressing her feeling of not trusting me.  I can see how my wife feels this way. 

Told my D she doesn't want to be around my family so not to invite them to her sporting events.   D agreed then got upset when her grandfather told her he'd love to come watch her play.

Our D doesn't like the way my wife and I are, and she finds us to be an embarrassment, and has isolated both me and my wife from her school performances and academic achievements which in turn also isolated her grandparents too, our DD was a bit upset when she learned the grandparents were upset too from this isolation.  My wife and I jointly parented her and expressed that we want to be there when she does these things.  DD has also threatened to go full no contact when she turns 18 as that is what her T likely communicated with her a few years ago.

Told D that I don't understand that when I'm mean to my ex she doesn't want to be around me.

Both my wife and I do this to each other when my wife becomes dysregulated, and I in turn grey rock my wife, and then my wife will give me the cold shoulder in return.  Our D thinks she is better than that and in turn isolates herself from both of us.  Yes, it is dysfunctional, I understand our D's behavior, my wife is trying to understand.

Ex told D hangout with people that don't hold me accountable and pat me on the back.  D then called me a grumpy old man that does doesn't want to be around .

D17 recently called my wife "grumpy mommy" in the past week around a boundary we are enforcing for bf16, the word "grumpy" really stuck out for me, as it is an accurate term on how our daughter feels about my wife, as our D17 wants to hangout with bf16 more than she does with either one of her parents.  D17 is 'spreading her wings', as she will be leaving the nest in a little over a year to go to college as a junior (she is in early college now getting an AA degree simultaneously with her HS  diploma).

Makes me sound completely horrible.  All of this because I asked her to clean her room or told her we weren't eating fast food.  Just a damn joke.  Funny because ex doesn't talk to any of her family, her older child included.  I have a big family and we all do things together, she said we are a bunch of narcissists and gas lighters in denial.

Our D makes both my wife and me sound completely horrible on the way our D describes us to her bf, and her bf makes his divorced mom sound the same way who has nearly identical behaviors, on a worse scale than my wife.  I feel that our D17 has attracted a BF in the same dynamic she is in.  Both our D17 and her BF16, are academically overachieving parentified caretaking children who are both extremely good kids (Strait A's and leaders among their peers), with some messed up parenting on each side.  I do give extra accommodation to our daughter because of the behaviors of my wife, and my reactive behaviors towards my wife.

If my wife loses her temper on DD, my DD does come and vents to me about this behavior, I do not disparage, but explain in an 'age' appropriate manner (example: 2 para. below).  Both my DD and her BF16 are codependent due to the respective parent behaviors, and they emotionally support each other.  While not ideal, it is 'good enough' parenting.

I can see subtle alienation in your dynamic, as it is not as overt.  Likewise, both my wife and I have has lashed out at me, and I defend myself, and then grey rock if it goes out of control - this is behavior I model, and in turn our D17 has caught on and does the same thing to my wife, and occasionally me too when we try to parent her.  It is a toxic dynamic.  My wife sees it, and I see it, our D17 sees it (S12 is oblivious) I talk about it in my individual therapy, and also our couple's therapy on a regular basis, comes up at least once every other session.  It is very difficult for a dad to navigate a relationship with a teenage girl when their parents are not on the best of terms.

I have always explained to my D17 that mom has 'issues' that she is aware of and is working on them in therapy.  If D17 points out stuff on me, I own it, and tell her 'I have issues too, and am working on myself in therapy'.  Our D17 probably has had more therapy than both of us combined, but currently rejects therapy for the past few years and prefers her own narrative which is usually pretty spot on.

Family relationships when one or more people have 'issues' are very difficult, and one needs to navigate it with the intent to minimize the emotional damage to the children first and foremost, and then minimize it to the spouse secondarily.  I will not intentionally contribute in a negative way, and if it is pointed out to me (usually a back-handed reactive comment under my breath), I will own my 'stuff' and take corrective action.  I will take the high road, and not consciously disparage my wife, even though she does with me.  It is incredibly hard not to be reactive to this.  I will also explain in 'age appropriate' language when either one of our children comes up to me and talks about this, or if I see them upset, often in tears on what my wife has done.  I do not hover/helicopter, nor am I a stand-off - it is a very delicate balance parenting children in a dysfunctional relationship and you can only do the best you can under the circumstances you are given.

I  have to remind myself, I chose to be in a relationship with my wife and both of our children did NOT choose to be in a relationship with us.  I have to own my relationship with my wife no matter how contentious it is, and try through leadership by example, to make the best out of bad situation. 

I feel the best thing for the children is to get out of the house, and have them interact with their peers, if it is organized/unorganized sports, video games, play dates, real dates (with firm boundaries), after school activities, etc.  Minimize the time in a toxic environment, encourage good behaviors, and discourage bad ones.  I know I am tempted to badmouth my wife; however, I pretty much only do it here on this website, where I can vent.  BPD Family is my safe space to do this interactively.  I can do it at anonymous meetings, but there are no-crosstalk rules, so these are not interactive and limited to a few minutes.

This is my side that I show our children, our extended families, our friends and acquaintances.  The other side of the coin, and it feels like I am forcing myself to be two-faced, with extreme segregation, I also document, take copious notes, and highlight issues in front of the couple's therapist in a private setting.  In essence "Hope/Pray/Strive for the Best; but, plan for the worst".  I am not where you are at.  However, I am not blind to the possibility that I may eventually be in your shoes one day - I hope not, but if I am, I want to be prepared for it, by planning for it.

I would suggest focusing on your D15's feelings, and validate her feelings without disparaging your stbx in front of your daughters.  Instead focus on the positives, and attempt to make the extra effort to accommodate your daughters (if it is inconvenient to go out of your way to pick up an Amazon package, it will mean a lot to your D).  I do this for my D, and she appreciates every bit of it.

Also document, only share here and with your attorney, but do not make this known to your wife, or any of your children as you want to minimize the emotional damage.  If you are like me you will feel two-faced doing so; however, as you want the best outcome for the situation, you need to do what needs to be done.

Definitely get your kids into family therapy, ideally with neither one of the parents present and move forward from there (no pretext for additional alienation).  I do know my children had a 'pact' together and they supported each other emotionally without either parent present before I started my emotional leadership role some 18 months ago as they felt unsupported by me in addition to the rages my wife had.  The kids have a front row seat to the dysfunction, they may talk amongst themselves like mine do, and it is best to have a therapist guiding them through this turmoil. 

I am sharing, as I feel there is a very similar teenage parent-daughter dynamic going on here, and how I am handling it differently within the context of what Skip shared, of not kicking the puppy, by try to help the puppy instead.

Also, to take the necessary precautions to protect what you have behind the scenes, and make certain compromises to ensure your children feel loved, and are not used as pawns in the battle between mom and dad.  Also be a parent with boundaries; however, also consider making 'token' concessions from time to time on things your children want, so they feel like you acknowledge and take their feelings into consideration.

Every situation is different, try to make the best out of a bad situation.

Be sure to do self-care in this time of extreme stress.

Take care.

SD

[mikejones75093]

Let me ask this.

Is there anyway to get her to reasonably settle?

Now she wants to go to trial and hire a forensic accountant to find my hidden money.

Well there is none.  After calling the cops, cps, now wants a forensic accountant, she is throwing all kinds of junk against the wall thay won't stick.  It's going to cost us another $100k to get this all done for nothing.   We will both be broke in our mod 40s and the attorneys get paid.

How do you talk sense into her to just settle and move on.  Will be much better to not spend $100k in fees. 

On another note she has her counselor and friends convinced I'm a narcissist.  I went to my counselor and asked if I was one, and was told no.  She said when you first came in here you took all the blame for your passive aggressive behavior that triggered her, and tried to turn it all around.  A narcissist wouldn't do that.   Made me feel a little better.

[ForeverDad]

I recently posted in one of our library boards about a clinical psychologist and author, Doctor Ramani, who has posted an extensive number of videos on the topic of Narcissists.  My relatives brought them to my attention.

About her claims... one of our members once wrote that he knew when his ex was lying - when she opened her mouth.   Eventually the court system will conclude that too.  (How quickly the court system will note that and how much they change their approach is another topic altogether.)

Be aware of what is and what is not marital money.  Did you know that inheritances, if kept in a separate account in your name and not disbursed into marital accounts or marital assets, is still your personal money?

[kells76]

Is there anyway to get her to reasonably settle?

Now she wants to go to trial and hire a forensic accountant to find my hidden money.

Well there is none.  After calling the cops, cps, now wants a forensic accountant, she is throwing all kinds of junk against the wall thay won't stick.  It's going to cost us another $100k to get this all done for nothing.   We will both be broke in our mod 40s and the attorneys get paid.

How do you talk sense into her to just settle and move on.  Will be much better to not spend $100k in fees. 

What's her "currency"? What's important to her? Is it:

-feeling like she got something from you that was important to you
-appearing like a great mom to others
-"winning" certain holidays for parenting time
-being seen as "the expert"
-just plain money
-???

You know her best -- what does she value? Use that as leverage for negotiating. "Look... you know what, yeah, I do have $500 cash in my safe deposit box. If you sign off on Document X I'll go 50/50 with you on it. OK, OK, you're right, you deserve more. How about 75/25 if you sign Document X and Document Y?"

Keep it transactional. If you haven't been able to work stuff out in the marriage, then now -- in the middle of a divorce -- is not the time where you will suddenly discover how to talk sense into her. Not blaming -- more being realistic.

Keep it transactional, keep it focused on you getting what's good for the kids while she feels like she's "winning", keep it focused on long term outcomes for the kids, not on short term frustrations.

And no matter what she says she's going to do -- no matter if she swears up and down that it's "trial or nothing" -- have something ready for her to sign on the courthouse steps, as it were. Plan for the worst, but don't take that as written in stone. She may have second thoughts walking into the courtroom -- be prepared for that possibility with stuff to sign then and there.

On another note she has her counselor and friends convinced I'm a narcissist.  I went to my counselor and asked if I was one, and was told no.  She said when you first came in here you took all the blame for your passive aggressive behavior that triggered her, and tried to turn it all around.  A narcissist wouldn't do that.   Made me feel a little better.

Did her counselor tell you that personally?  I hope you know where I'm going with this...

Don't give that the time of day; it's a distraction from long term outcomes. She's going to say a lot... let it slide, focus on the kids, focus on negotiating for outcomes.

[Skip]

It's explained pretty clear we aren't supposed to remove or transfer personal property fixtures or furnishings.

You should have a list made of the items, and have your attorney send it to her attorney as party of the discovery. It will be put on her side of the balance sheet.

After calling the cops, cps, now wants a forensic accountant, she is throwing all kinds of junk against the wall thay won't stick.

Some attorneys like to amp up the fight for fees. Some girlfriends like to amp up the fight to avebge their own feeling of injustice. Welcome to family court.

On another note she has her counselor and friends convinced I'm a narcissist.  I went to my counselor and asked if I was one, and was told no.  She said when you first came in here you took all the blame for your passive aggressive behavior that triggered her, and tried to turn it all around.  A narcissist wouldn't do that.   Made me feel a little better.

This is drama. None of this matters. Avoid the temptation to be moved by it.

Let me ask this.

Is there anyway to get her to reasonably settle?

Yes. Respond to their discovery requests as quickly as you can. Don't delay.

Now she wants to go to trial and hire a forensic accountant to find my hidden money.

Forensic accountants are typically employed on either high value estates or estates that have assets that need to be valued.  It's an expert witness cost. It won't be $100,000. If you have a simple estate, it will be under $10K

Don't be baited by the drama. Drama favors her case. Deligence and maturity favor yours.

[mikejones75093]

Well everytime we go to court it's $15k approximately for each attorney.

She called today, she said she is filing more requests for restraining orders real soon.  Didn't say for what.  I'm sure it's for drug and alcohol abuse.  I don't do either.  I have been voluntarily taking alcohol tests in secret,  but when we tried to work it out a few weeks ago I stopped.  About to go take another alcohol test and the most extreme  drug test offered.  This sucks.  Scares the hell out of me.  She only has her word, so I'm hoping the judge doesn't buy in.

[GaGrl]

You aren't responsible for her hiring of a forensic accountant. Have your lawyer submit an a treatment that all financial records have been submitted for discovery, along with a petition that further "intrusions" in to financial records are harassment and done only at her cost.

[EyesUp]

Mike,

Here's what I did:

- I recognized that the attys loved to have sidebars and report back and bill for this time
- So I took control of the process and told my atty no comms without an agenda, a strategy, a defined target outcome.  You need to take control of the process - you are the CEO of your divorce, your atty works for you.  You need to explicitly tell your atty what you want them to accomplish, and to propose a plan for you to approve to make it happen
- I thought long and hard about what mattered to my uBPDxw...  money, prestige, image, and the kids (or at least control of the kids)
- My uBPDxw filed for a contested divorce in which she would be primary parent (i.e., the main conflict would be custody), so I thought long and hard about how far she'd be able to take the case without significant financial support from her family (answer: not too far...)
- I proposed division of assets in which my uBPDxw would have a net benefit (i.e., not 50-50, but more like 65-35 in her favor.  Rejecting the offer would be unreasonable
- I proposed a 50-50 parenting plan that included splitting the winter school break in a way that ensures the kids are with her on xmas day, even in years in which xmas would not fall during her regular parenting time.  Again, this was meaningful to her, advantageous to her, and she'd be unreasonable not to accept - I understood that I would still see the kids, give them presents, and celebrate with them - with or without seeing on the xmas day.  And I do.
- In parallel, I documented for my atty all the things I did and continued to do for the kids that would counter my uBPDxw's unreasonable claims that I was not involved in the kids' lives.  The existence of a detailed and meticulous journal that showed I was at most pediatrician appointments, parent-teacher conferences, school events, extra curriculars, etc., etc., put my atty in position to confidently tell my uBPDxw's atty that her claims would not hold up and they would look foolish in front of the judge...

It's a cliche, but my uBPDxw accepted terms, and settled at the courthouse immediately prior to our first pre-trial hearing.

Summary:

- build your case yourself - don't expect your atty to believe everything you say or create a strategy for you, if you cannot effectively be your own advocate
- give your atty concise outcome-based instructions
- limit your atty's ability to act (spend billable time) without your explicit pre-authorization
- carefully consider your stbx's resources and how far she's able to go (her atty is probably telling her that you'll be on the hook for her fees - discuss this with your atty and figure out how to put that idea to rest for your stbx ASAP)
- carefully consider your stbx's motivations beyond "winning" - specifically, what can you trade that is of more value to her than to you?  how can you create the appearance of a win for her without really giving up all that much in time or $$$?

Glad to go into further detail, but the moral of the story is:  You cannot control your stbx's behavior or emotional responses.  However - you should be able to at least influence if not control your atty - they work for you.  And together with your atty, you should be able to create a strategy to guide this process.

[mikejones75093]

Mike,

Here's what I did:

- I recognized that the attys loved to have sidebars and report back and bill for this time
- So I took control of the process and told my atty no comms without an agenda, a strategy, a defined target outcome.  You need to take control of the process - you are the CEO of your divorce, your atty works for you.  You need to explicitly tell your atty what you want them to accomplish, and to propose a plan for you to approve to make it happen
- I thought long and hard about what mattered to my uBPDxw...  money, prestige, image, and the kids (or at least control of the kids)
- My uBPDxw filed for a contested divorce in which she would be primary parent (i.e., the main conflict would be custody), so I thought long and hard about how far she'd be able to take the case without significant financial support from her family (answer: not too far...)
- I proposed division of assets in which my uBPDxw would have a net benefit (i.e., not 50-50, but more like 65-35 in her favor.  Rejecting the offer would be unreasonable
- I proposed a 50-50 parenting plan that included splitting the winter school break in a way that ensures the kids are with her on xmas day, even in years in which xmas would not fall during her regular parenting time.  Again, this was meaningful to her, advantageous to her, and she'd be unreasonable not to accept - I understood that I would still see the kids, give them presents, and celebrate with them - with or without seeing on the xmas day.  And I do.
- In parallel, I documented for my atty all the things I did and continued to do for the kids that would counter my uBPDxw's unreasonable claims that I was not involved in the kids' lives.  The existence of a detailed and meticulous journal that showed I was at most pediatrician appointments, parent-teacher conferences, school events, extra curriculars, etc., etc., put my atty in position to confidently tell my uBPDxw's atty that her claims would not hold up and they would look foolish in front of the judge...

It's a cliche, but my uBPDxw accepted terms, and settled at the courthouse immediately prior to our first pre-trial hearing.

Summary:

- build your case yourself - don't expect your atty to believe everything you say or create a strategy for you, if you cannot effectively be your own advocate
- give your atty concise outcome-based instructions
- limit your atty's ability to act (spend billable time) without your explicit pre-authorization
- carefully consider your stbx's resources and how far she's able to go (her atty is probably telling her that you'll be on the hook for her fees - discuss this with your atty and figure out how to put that idea to rest for your stbx ASAP)
- carefully consider your stbx's motivations beyond "winning" - specifically, what can you trade that is of more value to her than to you?  how can you create the appearance of a win for her without really giving up all that much in time or $$$?

Glad to go into further detail, but the moral of the story is:  You cannot control your stbx's behavior or emotional responses.  However - you should be able to at least influence if not control your atty - they work for you.  And together with your atty, you should be able to create a strategy to guide this process.

I'd love to go into more detail.  I think I kind of made a strategy and gave my attorney direction yesterday. 

I put together an offer that is more than fair and asked her to present it.  Issue is, I think she will say no.  She is dead set on being the "primary" parent and wants to move the kids and change their school, that is not ok with me.  I said she is primary parent, kids stay in current school district, bind to county, 50/50 custody and offered her a fair amount of money.  If she says no I told my attorney to change it to an at fault divorce and scare the PLEASE READ out of her for parental alienation and harassment against me, put her on standard possession and cover my attorney fees and her wasted spending for the witch hunt against me. 
If you have something better I would love to hear it.  This woman is destroying everything and we will go broke.  Everything we worked and saved for the last 20 years. Hundreds of thousands of dollars poof gone.  Then she asks where did it go.  I sent her the receipts and statements, she doesn't believe me.  Not that it matters, but in her head i think she thinks shes right.
She has broke contact from her whole family, adult child included.  Its all my fault according to her. She's getting worse.

[dtkm]

Just be careful on offering "primary parent" to her.  I feel like once that is offered, it would be hard to get back, even if she doesn't accept, she has it on paper that you are ok if she is the primary parent (and if she is the primary parent, why shouldn't she have more than 50% of their time...a fight she may try to pick).  I am assuming that "primary parent" means making all decisions concerning parenting.  That means everything...medical decisions, educational decisions...any decision that could affect the kid's lives...and in turn, yours.  This is a bigger thing than I think sometimes we notice. 

[Skip]

Why is she so vengeful?

The handed her a huge defeat in ordering 50/50 on the temporary orders. Soi no she is in fight mode. And the facts are that if it appears to the judge that the two of you are so consumed in tearing each other apart, he will order "disney visitation" in the best interest of the kids. You will likely be the recipient.

If she says no I told my attorney to change it to an at fault divorce and scare the PLEASE READ out of her for parental alienation and harassment against me, put her on standard possession and cover my attorney fees and her wasted spending for the witch hunt against me.  

Have you two done the first level of discovery? In my experience (I am not an attorney so my experience is limited), settlement talks are best after the first round as both lawyers have the facts in front of them.

You are so ahead game... stay cool... win the war (and not take too many battle casualties).

That means everything...medical decisions, educational decisions...any decision that could affect the kid's lives...and in turn, yours.  This is a bigger thing than I think sometimes we notice. 

And where to live...

[EyesUp]

Just be careful on offering "primary parent" to her.  I feel like once that is offered, it would be hard to get back, even if she doesn't accept, she has it on paper that you are ok if she is the primary parent (and if she is the primary parent, why shouldn't she have more than 50% of their time...a fight she may try to pick).  I am assuming that "primary parent" means making all decisions concerning parenting.  That means everything...medical decisions, educational decisions...any decision that could affect the kid's lives...and in turn, yours.  This is a bigger thing than I think sometimes we notice. 

Yeah, as I understood it, "primary parent" = decision maker for health and education.  Even if you achieve a 50-50 parenting schedule, your stbx can run amok with conflicts with care providers, teachers, etc., and you will have little if any recourse.

The major "win" in my D was getting to both 50-50 and joint/shared responsibility for health and education decisions.  My X immediately tried to enroll one of our kids in a private school without any real discussion, and certainly no support from me.  Based on our agreement, lack of agreement = veto power, so I was able to keep our kid - who was doing well and who continues to do well, in the same school.  There was zero upside to further disruption for the kid, it was just another attempt from my X to control something - anything.

If my X had primary status, I would not have been able to put the brakes on that particular maneuver...  And as suggested above, it's very difficult to get that sort of agreement modified later without showing cause.

Is there another way that you can give your stbx a "win" while preserving 50-50 and joint decision making?

FWIW, my X also accused me of hiding money, having a secret second family, etc.  Financial disclosures shared during the discovery process put that complaint to rest...   Never mind that we filed joint taxes for years, etc.   One of the things I learned during the discovery process was that my X had a secret CC with significant debt I knew nothing about. As the saying goes, accusations are confessions...

[ForeverDad]

Ponder this... how could she be primary parent and yet have so many concerns reported about her?

I think you stated the flaw in your thinking... "I put together an offer that is more than fair".  We here have wonderful qualities - such as a sense of fairness - that can sabotage us in cases like ours.

Set fairness and niceness aside, as difficult as that may feel.  Yes, court wants you to behave decently and somewhat respectfully - so always act as though a judge is looking over your shoulder - but it doesn't rate fairness as a criteria.  Imagine you telling the judge, "Look how fair I am!" and the judge just says, "So?"

My ex was entitled from the very start.  Though she faced a Threat of DV charge at the start, had threatened to kill me, that was off the table after a few months since "she did not have a weapon in her hands".

In contrast, family court granted her mother's deference, she got full temp custody and majority time.  No wonder she delayed the divorce so much that the divorce took over two years.

We exited with Shared Parenting, equal custody and equal time.  However, I anticipated that she would continue problematic in her entitlement -  and she was! - so I went along with the Custody Evaluator for equal everything except... it was Trial Day and I stated that if we didn't settle with me in charge of schooling (Residential Parent for School Purposes) that we would start the trial.

Predictably she continued entitled but she couldn't take our kid and move away.  After a couple years I went back for custody and majority time, but only got custody.  She was still entitled and her antics continued.  I went back again and finally got majority time.  Finally her entitlement balloon deflated enough that we never went back to court.

Now, back to you.  You've already gotten a temp order with 50/50 time.  If at all possible hold onto that 50% as a minimum for dear life, so to speak.  Don't Gift it back to her!  Otherwise it would probably be an uphill struggle to get it back and you would regret your "fairness" in the years to come.

Sometimes the parents can choose which aspects of "custody" can be assigned to which parent.  There is medical, schooling, mental health, religious, sports activities, etc.

Or another option might be for custody be equal but if there is disagreement then you would have "Decision Making" or "Tie Breaker" status.  That of course would not stop her from taking it to court or a mediator but at least it would be her having to take it to court at an impasse rather than you cooling your heels doing nothing while waiting months to present your case.

Please, set aside your thoughts of offering "fairness".  She won't care one whit and neither will court.  Instead, think of what is practical to avoid/minimize future conflict.

[mikejones75093]

I wasn't going to give her anything back.  50/50 is minimum I'm willing to take.

Well today I got notified she filed to modify the temp orders and put me on supervised visitation.   Accusing me of alcohol and drug abuse,  not feeding my kids, and hiding money.

It's all BS.  I've been alcohol testing in secret because I knew she would do this.  She called the cops on me for not feeding my kids, cops came out and knew it was crap.   Hiding money,  well I'm not.

I don't know whether to be happy or mad about this.  I was pissed at first, then I'm thinking well if I want the court to know she's not right she has to do something.  Filing a modification for the exact same things as the TRO that was already ruled with only her word and no evidence, the Court has to say she's nuts right?

I have the alcohol tests,  ill take a drug test I don't do drugs and she knows this, the cops sent the call log saying no issues on her BS call for me not feeding them.  This has to be bad for her and backfire?  I hope so.  I'm made and nervous. 

[mikejones75093]

She drained our community cash account, so she also filed a motion for me to pay her attorney fees because she expects significant fees to defend my allegations.  My allegations?  This is just crazy.  So she files false things on me, then wants me to pay for it?

[ForeverDad]

Well today I got notified she filed to modify the temp orders and put me on supervised visitation.   Accusing me of alcohol and drug abuse,  not feeding my kids, and hiding money.

I don't recall anyone here reporting that hiding money successfully triggered supervised visitation.

Similarly, the other claims would have to be not only substantiated but also be found to be actionable, that is, being some sort of danger to the children.  For example, millions of parents drink beer and other alcoholic beverages and that alone does not disqualify them from parenting.

I suspect she is trying to make you (unsubstantiated) look worse than her (substantiated).

I expect children's services and other associated professionals will be tasked to investigate and report back to the court.  Likely that will be in the next hearing where both of you are present.

I don't know whether to be happy or mad about this.  I was pissed at first, then I'm thinking well if I want the court to know she's not right she has to do something.  Filing a modification for the exact same things as the TRO that was already ruled with only her word and no evidence, the Court has to say she's nuts right?

My experience was that my court didn't care about how either of us behaved, how good I behaved or how bad she behaved.  Allegations mean little, documentation and evidence count.  All through my divorce my then-stbEx delayed, obstructed, made many unsubstantiated allegations and the court calmly moved on to the next step in the process.  Court steadfastly declined to call her a liar.  Just once it came close, writing in a decision that she was "not credible" which I took as passive court-speak for "Liar!"

And it didn't get fed up with repeated failed allegations.  I used to joke with friends that they would let her keep filing and be ready to pounce on me as far as the 101st allegation if only *something* would stick.

[Skip]

She is dead set on being the "primary" parent and wants to move the kids and change their school, that is not ok with me.  I said she is primary parent, kids stay in current school district, bind to county, 50/50 custody and offered her a fair amount of money.  

I think there is some confusion in the conversation here between conservatorship (primary parent) and possession. Not sure if it is a typo or not.  

Under the Family Code in your state, child custody is divided into two categories: (1) conservatorship, and (2) possession.

Conservatorship describes a parent’s right to make important decisions on a child’s behalf, while possession is a parent’s right to physical custody of his or her child(ren). Depending on the circumstances, these rights can be granted to parents either jointly or separately. Some of these rights include the right to consent to medical, dental, and surgical treatment involving invasive procedures, the right to consent to psychiatric and psychological treatment, and the right to make decisions concerning the child’s education.

When determining conservatorship, the code requires that judges presume that it is in a child’s best interests to have both parents be named “joint managing conservators.” and share the decision-making rights described above. However, it is common practice amongst judges to give only one parent the right to decide the child’s primary residence. In other words, the judge chooses one parent to be the primary parent and to have the ultimate say-so on where the child will live. Whichever parent is not granted this right is usually deemed the “non-custodial” or “non-primary” parent and is given possession of the child under the Standard Possession Order.

The members are saying that joint conservatorship is important.

That being said, are you offering her sole conservatorship (primary parent) to you wife?

Hope this helps the discussion.

If she says no I told my attorney to change it to an at fault divorce and scare the PLEASE READ out of her...

Can you talk about this more? You have expressed concerns about the divorce costing a lot of money - "fault" divorces are far more expensive that no-fault.

She drained our community cash account, so she also filed a motion for me to pay her attorney fees because she expects significant fees to defend my allegations.  My allegations?  This is just crazy.  So she files false things on me, then wants me to pay for it?

In the end, the judge is going to take the remaining assets of the marriage and split it 50%/50% unless there is some egregious thing, and in that case 55%/45%.

It sounds like her attorney is amping things up - its pretty early to be discussing attorneys fees - and that is to the attorney's benefit (more fight means more fees).

[EyesUp]

She drained our community cash account, so she also filed a motion for me to pay her attorney fees because she expects significant fees to defend my allegations.  My allegations?  This is just crazy.  So she files false things on me, then wants me to pay for it?

Not sure about your state, but in mine, whoever files first is under an immediate financial restraining order.  This also applies to the other party once served. 

If one or both of you are under a financial restraining order, draining the account after the order was in effect, i.e., after the motion for divorce was filed - while difficult to recover - will not look good in front of the judge. 

How do you feel about your atty at this point?   Getting good advice?  Concise and clear responses to your concerns?  Effective advice?  I ask because some attys will enable clients to rack up a large amount of billable time while listening to emotional complaints and circumstances that are probably not relevant to legal proceedings... 

My advice: Don't use your atty to vent.
Also:  Have you told your atty exactly what you want to accomplish?  i.e., "I want 50-50 parenting time, I expect to pay $xx in child support, and I propose the following division of assets"

Where did you end up re: "primary" status?  Based on the comments posted here (and also my own experience), it would be interesting to know if that's moving ahead or not.  If it is still on the table, it seems like your atty might be willing to give the other side a quick win.  What are you getting in return for giving this up?  How does a potentially contested case hold up if you're willing to give your stbx primary status?  i.e., you've got recordings of her raging, presumably in front of the kids. If you agree that she's entitled to primary status, those recordings become irrelevant.

I don't mean to stir things up - Candidly, the way these things go, you probably won't get to use those videos anytime soon anyway - just trying to understand where you're at.

Hang in there!

[ForeverDad]

I expect anybody can ask for anything.  Whether she would get it, well, that may depend on how extreme your financial status differences are and surely other factors.

In my divorce over a decade ago I did not pay my spouse's legal fees.  I don't know whether that's a state, legal or whatever thing.  I do know that when she offered to give up her equity in the home, her lawyer stopped that.  Obviously her lawyer expected payment after finances were split.

In any case, many of the financial matters, such as splitting the assets and debts, are left for the final days and hours of the divorce.  (The lawyers will quickly rush through that stage so be aware that your lawyer will forget some issues important to you.)  Surprising as it is, our sorts of protracted divorces do often settle but seldom in the early part of the divorce.  Usually it's just before a major hearing or trial.

[ForeverDad]

If I haven't already, I too will sound off on any terms Gifting her some sort of "primary parent" status.

Right now you've reported serious behavioral concerns about her spousal and parenting patterns.  Eventually the professionals and the court will reach a consensus on how "actionable" her patterns are.  But offering to categorize her as "primary parent", even if in words only to mollify her, would seriously damage the incidents you've just filed.

Likely this could require an in-depth Custody Evaluation - by a well respected expert - to assess each parent's mental health and more importantly how their mental health and behaviors impact the children.

[livednlearned]

This has to be bad for her and backfire?

Dollars to donuts most professionals involved in your divorce are rubber stamping their way through this part. Most couples at this stage are on tilt. This is not new or different or outrageous.

Some lawyers will see bags of cash.

Most will be waiting for the two of you to settle down, if you can.

They might do backroom dealing where they say things about your temperament.

When your stuff grabs the attention of "courts" is when/if this goes on for a while and one or both parents can't or won't agree on things or follow simple orders, especially when things impact kids.

You two are ending a contract. It's a bit messy, yes, but they see that all the time.

Judges look at people like us and see a couple of knuckleheads who can't do what's best for the kids. They wonder why anyone in his or her right mind would let, much less want, a total stranger to make decisions about the well-being of the kids. Unless there is documentation to show that something or someone is genuinely harming the kids.

What is your lawyer saying about any of this?

Ideally, you have someone saying this is all smoke and no fire. If there's anything to be concerned about, it should be straightforward.

I asked my lawyer to look at stuff and let me know what if anything I should be concerned about. Our ratio was about 10:1 of nothingburger to something.

[mikejones75093]

I don't recall anyone here reporting that hiding money successfully triggered supervised visitation.

Similarly, the other claims would have to be not only substantiated but also be found to be actionable, that is, being some sort of danger to the children.  For example, millions of parents drink beer and other alcoholic beverages and that alone does not disqualify them from parenting.

I suspect she is trying to make you (unsubstantiated) look worse than her (substantiated).

I expect children's services and other associated professionals will be tasked to investigate and report back to the court.  Likely that will be in the next hearing where both of you are present.

My experience was that my court didn't care about how either of us behaved, how good I behaved or how bad she behaved.  Allegations mean little, documentation and evidence count.  All through my divorce my then-stbEx delayed, obstructed, made many unsubstantiated allegations and the court calmly moved on to the next step in the process.  Court steadfastly declined to call her a liar.  Just once it came close, writing in a decision that she was "not credible" which I took as passive court-speak for "Liar!"

And it didn't get fed up with repeated failed allegations.  I used to joke with friends that they would let her keep filing and be ready to pounce on me as far as the 101st allegation if only *something* would stick.

Well every allegation she made is her word and only her word.  There is no hidden money so they'll have fun wasting more on financial experts.  I've been alcohol testing in secret because I knew she would do this.  Today she emailed my employer the motion and told them I'm an abuser. 

Every single allegation I can prove is BS and she only has her word.  I have pictures of text messages between her and my daughter alienating me.  I just hope the judge reprimands her and I'm set up for an uneven split to cover the fees associated with this crap. 

My attorney told me to stay calm,  let her go nuts, we will file our motions right before the court date so they don't have time to prepare,  and we have all of the expert witnesses,  CPS Investigator and cop she called that she is going to make testify.  Also we can show her behavior, parental alienation and telling my boss I'm an abuser and danger to children.   I just hope at some point the court says lady you're nuts and stop this crap.

[mikejones75093]

Not sure about your state, but in mine, whoever files first is under an immediate financial restraining order.  This also applies to the other party once served. 

If one or both of you are under a financial restraining order, draining the account after the order was in effect, i.e., after the motion for divorce was filed - while difficult to recover - will not look good in front of the judge. 

How do you feel about your atty at this point?   Getting good advice?  Concise and clear responses to your concerns?  Effective advice?  I ask because some attys will enable clients to rack up a large amount of billable time while listening to emotional complaints and circumstances that are probably not relevant to legal proceedings... 

My advice: Don't use your atty to vent.
Also:  Have you told your atty exactly what you want to accomplish?  i.e., "I want 50-50 parenting time, I expect to pay $xx in child support, and I propose the following division of assets"

Where did you end up re: "primary" status?  Based on the comments posted here (and also my own experience), it would be interesting to know if that's moving ahead or not.  If it is still on the table, it seems like your atty might be willing to give the other side a quick win.  What are you getting in return for giving this up?  How does a potentially contested case hold up if you're willing to give your stbx primary status?  i.e., you've got recordings of her raging, presumably in front of the kids. If you agree that she's entitled to primary status, those recordings become irrelevant.

I don't mean to stir things up - Candidly, the way these things go, you probably won't get to use those videos anytime soon anyway - just trying to understand where you're at.

Hang in there!

I think my attorney is good.  She's been spot on so far. 

50/50 and pay support.  I want her on standard and to pay me.  I'm by far the more stable parent.  Also want a bigger split to cover my defense of her false allegations.

She's missing pickups at the bus stop.  Not taking them to practice.   When I wasn't home she showed up walked in my house and left with some bags,  have it all on security footage.  She thinks the rules don't apply.  3 weeks ago she didn't want the kids or any money now she wants to fight.

She emailed my employer today a copy of her motion and told them she's abused and I'm a danger to children.

If she keeps going she will have to take an mmpi test and I've been told she can't BS that.  I hope so.

[mikejones75093]

Not sure about your state, but in mine, whoever files first is under an immediate financial restraining order.  This also applies to the other party once served. 

If one or both of you are under a financial restraining order, draining the account after the order was in effect, i.e., after the motion for divorce was filed - while difficult to recover - will not look good in front of the judge. 

How do you feel about your atty at this point?   Getting good advice?  Concise and clear responses to your concerns?  Effective advice?  I ask because some attys will enable clients to rack up a large amount of billable time while listening to emotional complaints and circumstances that are probably not relevant to legal proceedings... 

My advice: Don't use your atty to vent.
Also:  Have you told your atty exactly what you want to accomplish?  i.e., "I want 50-50 parenting time, I expect to pay $xx in child support, and I propose the following division of assets"

Where did you end up re: "primary" status?  Based on the comments posted here (and also my own experience), it would be interesting to know if that's moving ahead or not.  If it is still on the table, it seems like your atty might be willing to give the other side a quick win.  What are you getting in return for giving this up?  How does a potentially contested case hold up if you're willing to give your stbx primary status?  i.e., you've got recordings of her raging, presumably in front of the kids. If you agree that she's entitled to primary status, those recordings become irrelevant.

I don't mean to stir things up - Candidly, the way these things go, you probably won't get to use those videos anytime soon anyway - just trying to understand where you're at.

Hang in there!

We were restrained but the judge said I can use the account to pay bills because my line of work is slow right now.  She wasn't supposed to use it.  She took most of it out and said it was attorney fees.  She doesn't want to tell anyone she makes 3 times as much as me and over spends.

[mikejones75093]

I expect anybody can ask for anything.  Whether she would get it, well, that may depend on how extreme your financial status differences are and surely other factors.

In my divorce over a decade ago I did not pay my spouse's legal fees.  I don't know whether that's a state, legal or whatever thing.  I do know that when she offered to give up her equity in the home, her lawyer stopped that.  Obviously her lawyer expected payment after finances were split.

In any case, many of the financial matters, such as splitting the assets and debts, are left for the final days and hours of the divorce.  (The lawyers will quickly rush through that stage so be aware that your lawyer will forget some issues important to you.)  Surprising as it is, our sorts of protracted divorces do often settle but seldom in the early part of the divorce.  Usually it's just before a major hearing or trial.

I'm in finance so that's the one part I have my finger on the pulse and can handle.

[mikejones75093]

If I haven't already, I too will sound off on any terms Gifting her some sort of "primary parent" status.

Right now you've reported serious behavioral concerns about her spousal and parenting patterns.  Eventually the professionals and the court will reach a consensus on how "actionable" her patterns are.  But offering to categorize her as "primary parent", even if in words only to mollify her, would seriously damage the incidents you've just filed.

Likely this could require an in-depth Custody Evaluation - by a well respected expert - to assess each parent's mental health and more importantly how their mental health and behaviors impact the children.

We have to do a custody evaluation and mental health test.  The custody evaluator is booked months out. I'm asking we take the mmpi because I've been told you can't BS it.