40 years later: First love of my life has reappeared

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Having expressed this, I do feel very sad however. Whilst away, Girlfriend #3 messaged me. First she was telling me she isn’t a bad person, then she accused me of slandering her.

I did not reply. Then on Wednesday she sent me a photograph of her wrist. All the scars of her previous suicide attempts, plus now a massive amount of bruising. 

 Blamed it all on my son.

My health has never been worse. I said I cannot be in a relationship with this abuse in it. I expressed I needed to focus on myself and needed to end it.



I feel really very sad about it all. It makes me feel ill thinking about it. And I do miss her in all honesty.

 I will miss her. It’s a long way to ‘happily ever after’ yet.

I wanted to highlight some of these responses. Note that- while GF#3 has been abusive to you, she doesn't assume accoutability for her behavior.

Her perspective is as victim- blaming your son- who has nothing to do with this.

Showing you her arms- attempting to make you responsible for her own self harm behavior. You didn't do that to her. This is her decision to do that.

You miss some aspects of the relationship. Relationships are rarely all good or all bad, but regardless, you know this relationship is bad for you. The abuse cycle can feel addictive. You could miss her like an alcoholic misses alcohol when they stop drinking, until they get sober and realize it's better for them to be sober.

Saying she isn't a bad person. One doesn't have to be a bad person to do hurtful things.  Abuse isn't always motivated by someone being evil. She has a mental illness that affects her thinking and emotions and acts out in abusive ways, and no matter what the motive, an abusive relationship is hurtful. You can see how it isn't good for you to be in one and also, you being in one has not changed this for her. You are not responsible for her having BPD.

Forever Dad makes a good point- you have the opportunity to go NC with this person. Not everyone has this option. If two people are co-parenting children, they can not have no contact with each other. Recovery is a process. You have become accustomed to the abuse cycle and your behavior in the relationship. Contact with her is an emotional relapse- for both of you.

[Notwendy]

Having expressed this, I do feel very sad however. Whilst away, Girlfriend #3 messaged me. First she was telling me she isn’t a bad person, then she accused me of slandering her.

I did not reply. Then on Wednesday she sent me a photograph of her wrist. All the scars of her previous suicide attempts, plus now a massive amount of bruising. 

 Blamed it all on my son.

My health has never been worse. I said I cannot be in a relationship with this abuse in it. I expressed I needed to focus on myself and needed to end it.



I feel really very sad about it all. It makes me feel ill thinking about it. And I do miss her in all honesty.

 I will miss her. It’s a long way to ‘happily ever after’ yet.

I wanted to highlight some of these responses. Note that- while GF#3 has been abusive to you, she doesn't assume accoutability for her behavior.

Her perspective is as victim- blaming your son- who has nothing to do with this.

Showing you her arms- attempting to make you responsible for her own self harm behavior. You didn't do that to her. This is her decision to do that.

You miss some aspects of the relationship. Relationships are rarely all good or all bad, but regardless, you know this relationship is bad for you. The abuse cycle can feel addictive. You could miss her like an alcoholic misses alcohol when they stop drinking, until they get sober and realize it's better for them to be sober.

Saying she isn't a bad person. One doesn't have to be a bad person to do hurtful things.  Abuse isn't always motivated by someone being evil. She has a mental illness that affects her thinking and emotions and acts out in abusive ways, and no matter what the motive, an abusive relationship is hurtful. You can see how it isn't good for you to be in one and also, you being in one has not changed this for her. You are not responsible for her having BPD.

Forever Dad makes a good point- you have the opportunity to go NC with this person. Not everyone has this option. If two people are co-parenting children, they can not have no contact with each other. Recovery is a process. You have become accustomed to the abuse cycle and your behavior in the relationship. Contact with her is an emotional relapse- for both of you.

[2020]

SaltyDawg, you have written another book chapter! And ForeverDad, you don’t mince your words. Thank you for your support.

I have felt like crap all day over the tragedy with Girlfriend #3. I have such a long history with her; 16 years total with 10 of them officially in relationship. I have had no further messages from her since yesterday. The temptation to check up on her is there though. Sad as it is, you are right, it is over and no good will come from it.

I spoke with Girlfriend #1 today. I sense she has her own anxiety issues. She worries I might not be that into her. She obviously likes me enough! It seems like we have both dealt with unwell people in relationship before.

I was telling her about love-bombing and she laughed and said she hopes I don’t think she is doing that! She is a very beautiful caring woman. At least we are able to have open honest communication. We both are thinking this seems too good to be true and have our own suspicions about each other. Perhaps we are both looking for red flags? We have agreed to slow down a little, not make any huge commitments just yet, just enjoy each others’ company.

SaltyDawg, I will certainly be keeping an eye on the flow of the giving and receiving. I am the type of person who likes to give gifts but feels undeserving receiving them. I spent years giving to Girlfriend #3. She received chocolates and flowers every week and I opened car doors for her like she was royalty… and still I was called an autistic little boy ! I am allowing myself to experience the receiving, and I am enjoying it. I am probably starving for it. I will look after her well. She has already had flowers on both visits!

I really feel for those with shared children. I did this with my second relationship and it hasn’t been easy.  It means a lot to hear I might be a success story here. I could not have done this without your guidance everyone. I feel like the luckiest man alive. I can’t   this up! I doubt I would have got out of my relationship if she hadn’t reconnected. It was only going to get worse.

I will see her (#1) in a week or so. I will keep a look out for those flags!    

[2020]

Hello Notwendy,

You have highlighted some important points for me to remember, moving forward. I did not cause her BPD. I certainly thought I could change it, if only I tried harder. I don’t know what else I could have done. It has been a difficult struggle for a decade or so. The suicide attempts have been extreme. I am surprised she survived one of them. She went on to tell her family I drove her to it. I need to try push all of this into the past. I have a lot on my plate. I don’t want to hurt anyone. I need to think about Girlfriend #1. And I need to certainly think about me! This process needs to be about detatching, as well as building a new healthy relationship.

“Not everyone has this option”. I will keep this at the front of my mind.

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

We are still here for you - it sounds like you are processing your feelings in a very healthy way, as disturbing as it is for you - I would be very concerned if you didn't feel this way.

I have felt like crap all day over the tragedy with Girlfriend #3. I have such a long history with her; 16 years total with 10 of them officially in relationship. I have had no further messages from her since yesterday. The temptation to check up on her is there though. Sad as it is, you are right, it is over and no good will come from it.

16 years is a long time to be someone, I am sure there have been many good memories throughout this  timeframe, and the good memories are generally stronger than the bad ones, as our minds want to suppress the bad ones in favor of the good ones.  However, go back to all of the posts you have made on this site over the years, use this as a reminder of how bad it really was for you with #3. 

You are a caretaker, just as most of us are here, this is the personality type that borderlines actively seek out, as they want to be cared for.  Now that I am aware of this, I can see this quite clearly. 

The temptation is strong to check up on her, to make sure she is okay, that is what people who care-take others do, it is a form of 'people pleasing'.  This week will be especially tough to do this, as you have not done this before (at least for 16 or more years), it is a new behavior pattern for you - you are in a state of transition, and there is a risk of reverting back to old comfortable behaviors, much like an alcoholic goes back to the bottle - resist these urges, have someone hold you accountable - perhaps your sister.


I spoke with Girlfriend #1 today. I sense she has her own anxiety issues. She worries I might not be that into her. She obviously likes me enough! It seems like we have both dealt with unwell people in relationship before.

Mate, I am going to be upfront with you - people like us, each of us have our own issues to deal with (whether or not we can admit to them).  As you indicated you both have dealt with unwell people in your respective relationships - this is a common theme here - I am on my 2nd borderline relationship, and you also have had two borderlines or borderline-like relationships, #2 & #3 - you need to figure out why you are a 'borderline magnet' - I worked with a psychologist and a LCSW-S (licensed clinical social worker - supervisor level) to figure this out, as other borderlines seem to be quite attracted to me - I attract crazy.  I have developed CRAYDAR (CRAYzyRADar) for myself, a slang term where I can detect their behaviors very easily before - before I was aware of BPD I was oblivious to it.

I urge you to follow through on your own psychologist appointment that you mentioned a few posts back so you can sort out your feelings and perceptions on this.


I was telling her about love-bombing and she laughed and said she hopes I don’t think she is doing that! She is a very beautiful caring woman. At least we are able to have open honest communication. We both are thinking this seems too good to be true and have our own suspicions about each other. Perhaps we are both looking for red flags? We have agreed to slow down a little, not make any huge commitments just yet, just enjoy each others’ company.

It is natural, that both of you have these anxiety issues, and since both of you have the 'too good to be true' sentiment, it sounds like you both are in very similar places as far as your own emotional well being.  It is good to keep your eyes open, and be aware of these issues.  It is also good to consult someone you trust in this relationship, an independent 3rd party, like a psychologist/therapist.  Also, a good friend or loved one, like your sister for her opinion.

While it is good to go in with eyes wide open, on the flip side of the coin, you don't want these issues of anxiety to smother the relationship's potential either - it is a balance, a therapist would be good here to help guide you.

Slowing down is a good thing; however, 'stopping' is not, unless there are red flags .

Love bombing, when is it healthy and when is it unhealthy?  The beginning of a relationship there will be a lot of things that look like love bombing, but isn't.  It all boils down to the 'intent' on these behaviors, if it is intended to manipulate and monopolize each other's time where you become dependent on one another, this is love bombing.  There are many articles on this topic, I would suggest reading them, a quick google search will reveal them, make a list of questions that concern you, and ask your therapist.  Since you and her both have codependent traits, there will likely be some level of love bombing present - this is where your respective therapists come in and help you sort through this if it is at a healthy level or an unhealthy one.


SaltyDawg, I will certainly be keeping an eye on the flow of the giving and receiving. I am the type of person who likes to give gifts but feels undeserving receiving them. I spent years giving to Girlfriend #3. She received chocolates and flowers every week and I opened car doors for her like she was royalty… and still I was called an autistic little boy ! I am allowing myself to experience the receiving, and I am enjoying it. I am probably starving for it. I will look after her well. She has already had flowers on both visits!

Feeling 'undeserving' of receiving gifts is a codependent trait / pattern - I have the same pattern, and right now for me, this is the most impactful pattern for me to address in myself.  Flowers is okay, as is buying her meals that are inexpensive, as long as there is reciprocity, she does stuff for you too.  It is when it is one-sided like with #3 where it becomes an issue.  Just keep your eyes open; be mindful of reciprocity; however, do enjoy yourself and don't over-analyze the situation


I really feel for those with shared children. I did this with my second relationship and it hasn’t been easy.

I know you haven't talked much about #2 here; however, would you mind sharing with us if #2 keeps in touch with your son?  I seem to recall you also had another child with #2 as well, and do you keep in touch with that child and/or #2 - what is that relationship like?


It means a lot to hear I might be a success story here. I could not have done this without your guidance everyone. I feel like the luckiest man alive. I can’t   this up! I doubt I would have got out of my relationship if she hadn’t reconnected. It was only going to get worse.

Yes, you are very lucky - carpe diem, seize the day, on this opportunity.  I can understand you are very worried that you don't want to F*** this up.  I think you addressed this aspect with your mutual feelings of anxiety.  Taking your time, not rushing is a good thing; however, you do want to avoid analysis paralysis where you don't move forward in a healthy way.


I will see her (#1) in a week or so. I will keep a look out for those flags!    

Keep your eyes open to those flags; however, don't dwell on them, unless your 'gut feeling' tells you to, and then see a therapist on those feeling, and/or come here for a 2nd opinion.


I did not cause her BPD. I certainly thought I could change it, if only I tried harder. I don’t know what else I could have done. It has been a difficult struggle for a decade or so. The suicide attempts have been extreme. I am surprised she survived one of them. She went on to tell her family I drove her to it. I need to try push all of this into the past. I have a lot on my plate. I don’t want to hurt anyone.

No, you did not cause her mental illness.  It is magical thinking to think you can change this if you only tried harder. 

I will give you a heads up on what to expect, #3 will likely contact you once she has processed you are not going to contact her - right now she has pulled away, and is expecting you to follow her, she is testing where you are at with her behaviors since she has sensed a change.  Once you do not follow-her, by checking up on her, as you have done in the past, she will become worried, and is likely to launch some kind of campaign to get you back, and it may become very emotionally charged - an extinction burst.  Since you mentioned her family, she may enlist them as her 'flying monkeys' to aid her in doing this.  Please mentally prepare yourself for this, as you have explicitly stated that you do not want to mess things up with #1 - you must not interact with #3 (unless it is to wrap up paperwork, or the authorities, and then keep it BIFF).

Do not delete the graphic images she has sent you, keep them as a reminder why you are distancing yourself from #3.  If it escalates, you can use them to demonstrate her mental instability.


I need to think about Girlfriend #1. And I need to certainly think about me! This process needs to be about detaching, as well as building a new healthy relationship.

I think you are right on target, stay focused on doing what is best for you, your son, and how #1 can be part of your lives in a healthy way.


Take care.

SD

[ForeverDad]

We're not overly suspicious of your renewed acquaintance with GF#1.  We just want you to be alert, take things at a subdued pace but it very well could turn out just fine.  Time will tell.

I'm reminded that many here have found healthy relationships after experiencing life with acting-out PDs.  livednlearned and kells76 are testimony to that, and they are the better for it. Though it isn't all cakes and roses, they too have had to deal with others with PD issues.

[2020]

I am having a lot of difficulty with this. It is not as easy as I imagined.

On the one hand I have Girlfriend #1 wondering how enmeshed I am with #3. She doesn’t want to be a bandaid as I heal from #3 which is totally understandable. She is questioning whether I might find her boring if I don’t have all that drama in my life anymore. She asked whether I had thought about the idea of being in abusive relationships might be a self harm thing. I have a lot to think about. She can be very direct and upfront. I am finding it challenging.

Girlfriend #3 has been messaging me. I have responded, which is perhaps not a good idea. I can’t maintain boundaries. I do not want to be a cruel cold person. She sounds very sad and has expressed remorse about her past behaviour. It is really tugging at my heart strings. She is asking to be friends, and I have read about this sort of thing here.

I am thinking today that maybe there is a third way. Perhaps I need time alone. Maybe I need to become single. This Austin Powers lifestyle is not me!  The fact I am either in relationship with #3, or at the tail end of that relationship, or just out of that relationship and raw, is causing friction with moving forward with #1 (or anyone for that matter). There is a lot of sadness and guilt I am feeling towards #3 if I am honest about it. Perhaps this is understandable after so long.

I wake up in the morning and it all hits me, and I think Oh F . So what do I do? Should I just explain to both that I need to be single and not in relationship for a while? I have a lot of ‘baggage’. I am doubting I can be with anyone without f up their heads or lives. I really don’t want to be that person.

Maybe it is time to be alone? Perhaps I should sort myself out first before getting intimately involved with another human? What seemed so perfect is falling apart around me. I don’t know what the right thing to do is. I have now got myself in a bigger mess than ever. I wish I could just vanish.

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

It sounds as though you are really conflicted and FOG is getting the better of you right now.

I am having a lot of difficulty with this. It is not as easy as I imagined.

It is very difficult, you are dealing with a lot of new emotions, with a lot of uncertainty - and this can be very frightening, not to mention feeling helpless and insecure in your decision.  Hopefully I can shed some light on the subject, as this is your choice alone to make. 

You haven't mentioned much of what your sister thinks of these new developments, good or bad, would you mind sharing them with us?  She is perhaps the closest advocate with the best understanding of the situation that you are in - what is her opinion?


On the one hand I have Girlfriend #1 wondering how enmeshed I am with #3. She doesn’t want to be a bandaid as I heal from #3 which is totally understandable.

I can understand #1's perspective, if you are dealing with the issues of #3, it could easily overwhelm #1, and her own issues could put a barrier / boundary between you and #1.  Likewise, your own emotional doubts and fears of ending your relationship with #3 could also put up a barrier with #1.  This is why I am encouraging you to not share too much with #1, but share it with a therapist and/or a confidant with whom you can trust, you have previously indicated your sister may be of emotional support in this matter - if I were you, I would go to your therapist, and get a 2nd opinion from your sister, from what you have shared here, these are the two people to seek out advice on what is best for you, 2020.  What do you think?


She is questioning whether I might find her boring if I don’t have all that drama in my life anymore. She asked whether I had thought about the idea of being in abusive relationships might be a self harm thing. I have a lot to think about. She can be very direct and upfront. I am finding it challenging.

What do you think?  Do you think you will find life without drama too boring?  I know a drama free life is something I long for, and I have been taking active steps with my uBPDw, and my children, who have their own issues to reduce the amount of drama - for the most part I like it.  I find my drama here at BPD Family, and at a volunteer job, and this can, at times, be somewhat overwhelming for me, as I tend to converse the more highly conflicted people where physical violence and suicide attempts have occurred.  If you want a 'drama fix', just come here, or do volunteer work in a related area.  If you want peace and quiet, figure out what you want, and then 'do it'.  What are your thought's on this?

Regards to the comment on 'self-harming' with bad relationships - ouch, that is a low blow.  For me, being in these kinds of relationships are harmful, I recognized the first borderline relationship as being harmful, so I left, and did not look back; however, my 2nd borderline which is the present one with my wife, is a lot more subtle.  Do I consider this a form of self-harm, for me in my relationships, I don't think so, since I left the previous one, and I do have plans to leave the current one, once both of our children have left (unless she works hard at fixing her remaining issues) and I am slowly detaching from my wife, putting more distance between her and me.  The only person who can answer this question about you, is you.  If you share in depth with a therapist, this is an excellent topic of conversation with them.  The fact that #1 is challenging you by being upfront and direct on your feelings, this actually a green-flag, even though it is very uncomfortable for you, as she is likely perceiving your responses as a to her, or perhaps a more serious (my reasoning not to 'overshare' with #1 - seek out the advice of a licensed professional for this) from her perspective.


Girlfriend #3 has been messaging me. I have responded, which is perhaps not a good idea. I can’t maintain boundaries. I do not want to be a cruel cold person. She sounds very sad and has expressed remorse about her past behaviour. It is really tugging at my heart strings. She is asking to be friends, and I have read about this sort of thing here.

You have an anxious attachment style, where you love others more than you love yourself.  No-one wants to be a cruel and cold person; however, right now you are faced with a dilemma - you can only have one relationship, and whichever relationship you choose will hurt the other's feelings.  You must choose what is best for you - not #1, and not #3 either.  Use wise-mind to choose.

I will remind with #3, you have been with for 16 years, 10 of which you have been intimate with.  This person has thrown stuff at you, cheated on you in the middle of the night with another, self-harms and has attempted suicide and is verbally and psychologically abusive plus anything else I have not mentioned here.  #3 has NOT been in any meaningful therapy, and accuses you for her issues.  I did warn you to expect new behaviors to get you back (h00ver you back in for a recycle), expressing remorse if it is a new behavior, she is escalating her behavior, as her old behavior is no longer effective as her fear of abandonment has kicked into high gear with your right here and now - please give yourself some space, so you can think clearly about this situation.

Three things must be present for a relationship with #3 to be on the mends, #1 - she must be self-aware that she is messed up (from what you have described, she is self-aware), #2 - she must be dedicated to seeking meaningful therapy, for a borderline, this ideally would be DBT, with both a weekly individual session, and a weekly group therapy session in an intensive outpatient setting for two years, and #3 - a good moral compass where she will not cheat on you nor intentionally abuse/manipulate you, nor blame you for her behaviors.  From what you have shared, she only has met the first criteria, and that could be something new.  If you were to go back to #3, you will be stuck in what you have been stuck in for the past decade plus, with much less than 1% of it actually working out, as her past behaviors are indicative of her future ones.  If you truly believe that #3 has changed with genuine remorse, ask her to prove that she has accepted a diagnosis of being BPD/EUPD or at a minimum of having the traits, and she is actively seeking an approved IOP program for recovery.  Her answer on this, will give you guidance on what you should do.  If she refuses, refuse to be with her.  If she accepts, ask to attend her therapy (this will give you an indication if she is being honest) as emotional support and get her to agree not to see her affair partner ever again (this too will give you an idea on how committed she is to you) - if she refuses these, then refuse to be with her, as you have boundaries.  Even if she agrees to all of this your chances at a meaningful relationship is still less than 10%, right now it is less than 1%. 

On the other hand, you have #1, your first love with whom you had gotten her pregnant back in the late 1980's and her mum broke you guys up, and you reconnected, only to break up again, when she went on a date with someone at university - back then you had a healthy boundary that you implemented.  #1 seems to be self-aware of her issues, and has addressed her issues in meaningful therapy for herself, and seems to have a reasonably good moral compass and is asking some very pertinent questions.  Since both of you are likely anxiously attached, the chances of a meaningful relationship that feels good (with some codependent challenges) is 45%-90%; however, there is a risk of it developing into another relationship similar to a borderline one, from statistics, this would be around 10-12% based on both of your past histories of attracting these kinds of relationships.


I am thinking today that maybe there is a third way. Perhaps I need time alone. Maybe I need to become single. This Austin Powers lifestyle is not me!  The fact I am either in relationship with #3, or at the tail end of that relationship, or just out of that relationship and raw, is causing friction with moving forward with #1 (or anyone for that matter). There is a lot of sadness and guilt I am feeling towards #3 if I am honest about it. Perhaps this is understandable after so long.

It seems you are painfully aware of the issues here.  This is definitely an alternative, and from what you wrote earlier, it would seem that #1 is willing to wait a short while while you sort out your feelings.  A month, perhaps two doing this would be in order, in the meantime work on yourself with a licensed therapist, and bounce ideas off a confidante that you trust.  Please be mindful, that you are a 50 something male, and as one of my therapists aptly pointed out to me, men in the age group are at an advantage at finding love again over their female counterparts.


I wake up in the morning and it all hits me, and I think Oh F . So what do I do? Should I just explain to both that I need to be single and not in relationship for a while? I have a lot of ‘baggage’. I am doubting I can be with anyone without f up their heads or lives. I really don’t want to be that person.

Maybe it is time to be alone? Perhaps I should sort myself out first before getting intimately involved with another human? What seemed so perfect is falling apart around me. I don’t know what the right thing to do is. I have now got myself in a bigger mess than ever. I wish I could just vanish.

Mate, seek out a qualified licensed professional to help you sort out these feelings of yours.  You are overthinking this situation, and it is giving you a lot of anxiety here. 

I won't tell you what to do here, as this is entirely up to you.  However, knowing what I know, and if I were in your shoes, I would #1 - actively seek advise from a licensed professional, pay for additional sessions to expedite the process as 12x/year from public health is insufficient, #2 - Take it slow, but reconnect as friends with #1 for at least a month, perhaps two before becoming sexual, #3 - Detach with grace from #3 who has been abusive, do not share that you are with #1 with her, encourage her to get professional help for her issues, and emotionally distance myself from her, as you no longer want to subject yourself to her abusive behaviors - also by distancing herself from her, she will be less likely to self-harm and attempt suicide in the future, as you are not available to be manipulated.  If she crosses boundaries, implement NC.  But, that's me, if I were in your shoes. 

However, you must do you, 2020, being mindful that there are consequences for each and every action you do with both #1, #3, yourself, and your son too (to a lesser extent).  #1 or #3 will get hurt - there is no getting around that, or you will hurt both of them, and yourself in the process too.  How you conduct yourself from this point forward will determine the amount that each receives.  I know you don't want to hurt anyone; however, that is not an option.  In the previous two messages, I showed a path with the least amount of hurt, you can still return to this path, with a little added hurt to both 1 & 3 that has already been done.

You are obviously conflicted, seek out the advice of a licensed professional (I am only a peer) in this matter.

I wish you the best of luck, and I hope you can find a path forward, as it is getting less clear for you.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[ForeverDad]

Perhaps I need time alone. Maybe I need to become single...

Maybe it is time to be alone? Perhaps I should sort myself out first before getting intimately involved with another human?

Go back to my first post on this thread.  There I mentioned that your current relationship was essentially ended by your GF.  It was unhealthy since she was keeping you isolated from her yet left "simmering" on the back burner, to use a stove top analogy.

As predicted, she has sensed you echoing the pseudo End she's relegated you to and is now trying to guilt you back into her life.  Has she changed into a healthy person so suddenly?  No, there are no instant recoveries.

Boundaries are so important.  You will never get her to formulate her own good boundaries, you should have learned that after over a decade with her.  But YOU can set good boundaries for yourself... and stick to them.

As I warned, relapsing back into communication with her is not helpful for you.  If there is no hope after all these years for a functional and healthy relationship with her - which you already know - then (1) truly ending the relationship and (2) ending contact is a must.

Don't be discouraged if/when you fail, as we all know with addictions, relapses are not uncommon.  The question is whether you see them for what they are, "falling off the wagon", and "get right back on the healthy wagon".

That brings me to another part of that prior post... give yourself time to recover.  A rebound relationship can be problematic in that it is "too soon".  Doesn't mean you have to cut out all renewed contact with your first love.  But as you pondered, you could well use some "alone time" to reorient yourself and perspectives.

I wrote this too: "I recall one mistake I made, a common one, I kept talking about my parenting struggles with my ex.  It's one thing to inform, quite another to keep reverting to the angst from the past failed relationships."  Ask yourself, Am I able to stop recounting obsessively my issues with the prior relationship?  If the ex is constantly dragged into the conversation, then you would benefit with more recovery time.

[Notwendy]

I think GF#1 has raised a legitimate concern. If you had shared with her that you were unhappy with GF #3, she may have assumed you were ready to give that relationship up. Now that she has seen it's more complicated than that, she is asking about it.

I agree with FD that taking some alone time in this situation is a good idea, since it is soon and you are trying to collect your thoughts. I also agree that it doesn't mean you have to have no relationship with GF #1.

Your relationship as a teen resulted in a pregnancy. To experience and lose a pregnancy is also emotionally traumatic. It's possible that this one reason for why GF#1 contacted you- to get some answers and closure for herself- and then the relationship took off from there as you were both willing to pursue it.

You both acted on the feelings you had as teens/20's but now you have the task of interacting as adults and assessing if you two are compatible as you are now. You also have the task of resolving your connection with GF#3. This is difficult work on your part- but it also may be an opportunity to see where the relationship with GF #1 leads to. You didn't have the emotional capacity as a teen to do this- no teens do- but you do have this opportunity as an adult now.

[Pook075]

I am having a lot of difficulty with this. It is not as easy as I imagined.

On the one hand I have Girlfriend #1 wondering how enmeshed I am with #3. She doesn’t want to be a bandaid as I heal from #3 which is totally understandable. She is questioning whether I might find her boring if I don’t have all that drama in my life anymore. She asked whether I had thought about the idea of being in abusive relationships might be a self harm thing. I have a lot to think about. She can be very direct and upfront. I am finding it challenging.

Question- is girlfriend #3 still your girlfriend?  Have you actually broke up with her?  And would you say you're in a relationship with #1?

I think you're correct in assuming that you should be single right now- and dating while single is perfectly okay.  You're exiting a traumatic relationship and if you don't take the time to heal from that, you're just going to carry all your other baggage right into this new relationship and possibly ruin it.

Take your time.  Heal.  Grow.  Then see what's there with #1.  Definitely end things with #3 though.

[Cat Familiar]

What keeps you clinging to someone who treats you so badly?

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   Everyone is being very supportive of you right now, and there are a lot of good ideas, questions, and recommendations.

   I meant to ask you a very important question from my last post.... I will pose a few hypothetical situations...

   If your son was in the situation that you are now in, what would you recommend your son to do, go with #1, try and help #3, leave both to sort out his feelings?  I am curious as to how you would guide your son if he was faced with a similar predicament?

   Same questions, with gender reversals for your dear sister?  If she had two guys wanting her attention, one was really good to her (a high school sweetheart who has finally come back), and the other terribly abusive boyfriend, who she wants to fix and won't leave.  What would you recommend for your sister?

   Here is another hypothetical question if your sister was in the position of your GF #1, what would you recommend to your sister?  What conditions would her high school sweetheart have to meet in order to date him, if her highschool sweetheart was still enmeshed in a very abusive relationship?

   I often find it useful to look at the situation from a different 3rd person perspective, and what I would recommend to someone else (other than one's self) on how to handle a particular situation.

   What do you think?  I am curious as to what your answers might be?

   Take care of yourself 2020, and your son too.

SD

[2020]

I am going to see the new psychologist in a few hours. I am still as confused as ever.

Girlfriend #3 has been messaging me. Same story; saying she is sorry and that she misses me. I have told her I cannot be in a relationship with her, that we have had frequent conflict and a lot of abuse, and that I need to be alone. So I am getting the ‘can we be friends’ messages. It is just a nightmare really. It makes me very sad. And then last night she was sending drunken poems to me.

In the meantime Girlfriend #1 is ringing me and we talk for hours on end. She messages me during the day. There has been an incident where we disagreed on something and she took offense to my words. I guess I can be very direct at times and forget somebody is on the receiving end. She has been asking about whether I have contact with #3. I am being honest without giving details away. I’d say she is interested in a relationship with me.

It is unfortunate this could not have happened when I was absolutely single, around 2004 to 2009 or so. I would have jumped at this then. Having #3 still in my life is going to be the end of this. I don’t think I would be persisting with a woman who still had the man from her last relationship messaging her every day.

I think I might just have to hide away for a while. Part of me thinks I should not have a relationship with anyone. And then I wonder if it is because I don’t want to upset these two women. It is as if I will rather miss out on something better in order to not upset someone, perhaps #3. Is that what this is? I don’t have a cell/mobile phone because I dont like answering them. I could quite easily just go offline five days a week in order to escape this. I am seriously reclusive. It is just a lot easier not being involved with other humans.

Pook, I have only just indicated to #3 it needs to end. I have had the messages of understanding, the apologies, and can we be friends. It is obviously very hard moving on from a BPD relationship. My boundaries are gray. I thought I wanted a relationship with #1, but now I think perhaps it is best just to be alone.

SaltyDawg, your hypothetical questions are helpful. I would recommend leaving #3, sorting out your own problems before getting involved with #1 or anyone.

Cat, I don’t know why I cling to this person. Maybe I don’t want to hurt her. She has nobody left in her life. I have known her for a long time. Perhaps I am just programmed this way?

The way this is currently heading is a disaster in the making. I have two people trying to connect with me. I need to sort myself out. I have never stood up for me and I don’t even know if I can do it. It comes back to this realisation that for all the talk which goes on here about our loved ones and their issues, really the focus should be on ourselves, at least half of it surely?

[2020]

In 2004 I was discarded by Girlfriend #2 after 16 years together and children. I say I was single until about 2009. Had no sex with anyone, no intimacy, not even a hug. The reality was somewhat more complicated.

I continued to do the parent thing. Got the kids to school, paid for school excursions, bought their clothes and shoes. Had them stay with me most of the time. They had birthdays and Christmas because of me. Their mother just took drugs and made a mess of her life.

I never quite was single. She borrowed money, came to me when she was beaten up by her boyfriend. She wanted to go see bands with me, which I did, and paid for. Even booked accommodation interstate, only to have her slash her wrists in the motel room because a girl gave me a hug. She wanted all the perks of being in relationship, but without having to have responsibilities on her end.

I did this for years. On meeting #3 by chance, my psychologist told me I must not under any circumstance let #2 know, because she will poison everything.

I mention this because perhaps nothing has changed within me. History may well be repeating itself. I am interested what others may think here? It looks to me like I have lots of work to do on myself. I am probably not ready for another relationship. Can I even have friendships?

[2020]

Sorry for three posts in a row….

I just spoke to my sister on the phone. I was explaining this idea of seeing this situation from different viewpoints, like SaltyDawg suggested. She agreed, and added this…

What if it weren’t a relationship but a job? Imagine telling someone you had this job in a newsagents for example and the boss was yelling at you every day; calling you a POS. Anybody would be concerned upon hearing this. Particularly if you added that they were beating you up, thowing things at you, damaging your car and setting fire to your caravan, breaking your things and driving your friends and family away. And imagine them asking how long you had worked there for and you reply “more than ten years”. They would probably think you were crazy, especially when you tell them you are thinking of staying on for a few more years. And can you imagine the look on their faces when they say “they must pay really well for you to put up with that”, and you inform them you are a volunteer and work for free! 

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   Welcome back, and thank you for sharing.  I see you have done a lot of good thinking and taking this very seriously, and that is commendable.

I am going to see the new psychologist in a few hours. I am still as confused as ever.

Mate, this is good; however, this will be a first meeting, so there will be intake, and a getting to know you portion.  The portion where you can start working, you will likely still have a lot of unanswered questions when you leave your meeting, if this message reaches you before your appointment, pick one or two critical questions to ask, and have another one or two less critical ones to ask, as time will be limited in the first meeting for these kinds of questions with the psychologist.

[to be continued - posting this bit due to the time sensitive nature]

[Pook075]

I mention this because perhaps nothing has changed within me. History may well be repeating itself. I am interested what others may think here? It looks to me like I have lots of work to do on myself. I am probably not ready for another relationship. Can I even have friendships?

My marriage blew up after 24 years, and after being separated for about a year, I decided to hop on an international dating app to try to meet a Christian woman.  My rational was that (1) I wanted to meet someone but no chance of sex since I was still waiting out divorce and (2) I wasn't meeting any Christian women locally that I'd want to date.  I chose a site in the Philippines because they're known for faithful religious women.

Girl #1 seemed sweet, but had all sorts of drama.  Her dad just died, she was struggling to raise her two kids.  And I got sucked right in wanting to help...until I caught her in a lie...and another.  When I called her on it, she went berserk and I thought....hmm, BPD?

Girl #2 had just moved to a big town in the Philippines, great job, super fun personality.  It felt like love at first sight, everything was amazing for about two weeks.  Then her mood crashed and she was woefully depressed, could I send her money to go to the spa?  Hmm, BPD?

Girl #3 and 4 turned out to be just friends.  We talked and had fun getting to know each other's cultures and lives, but there was no big romantic connections there.

Girl #5 was super cute and fun to talk to, but I honestly don't think she was interested in me as much as she was any guy that would marry her and bring her to the US.  Cool gal but something was way off- BPD?

Girl #6 was probably the funniest person I've ever met in my life, which was strange because she was a maid in Qatar under horrible circumstances.  Full of life, happy, flirty...she was clearly the one.  Then on the third day, she called and screamed at me that I was cheating on her, she saw I was friends with girl #3 on Facebook and I was clearly in love (because I liked her post on some kid's birthday).  Mind you, we weren't dating, and I was like....umm, we've talked for two days here!
 She profusely apologized though and begged for forgiveness, she was just really jealous, she said. 

We made up and all was well, until she saw I was also friends with girl #4 on Facebook the following day.  She went ballistic and I was forced to block her on everything...BPD?  I wish I had time to tell more of this story because she then targeted my brother...first to make me jealous...then to demand that he marry her immediately.  He blocked her too and she's currently talking to my BPD daughter...they're fast becoming great friends.

Girl #7 was a little flirty, mostly serious, but immediately blew me away with how natural talking to her was.  She'd remember everything and nag me to remember to do odds and ends, and she also has one heck of a temper at times.  Yet, despite her faults, she knows God and unconditionally loves me for me no matter what...always supporting me and being on my side.  I hope to marry her someday and we've been best friends for about seven months now.

Sorry for sharing a small book there, but I wanted to show MY PATTERN on choosing the absolute wrong person over half the time.  At least twice, I thought "this could be the one" until the wheels absolutely fell off the bus and I sat here astonished at how much I somehow overlooked things.  But the other side of that coin was that I was almost a year removed a toxic marriage and someone who liked me for me was one heck of a great feeling.

I feel pretty certain girl #7 is the one because she actually helped me heal- we've talked for hours about my situation and my struggles with my BPD daughter and wife.  She's always here for me and one of the coolest things in the world is when I have a bad day and she simply says, "I'm here to listen."  It's like woah...people do that in relationships?  I do the same for her though and it's an amazing feeling to be so close to someone 9,000 miles away.

Don't give up on love...but don't rush into it either.  If my situation happened with local women....oh my gosh, it would have been a nightmare and I never would have made it to #7.  I'm so blessed that I did though and it's only happened because I was patient enough to wait for the right gal once I was fully healed.

#6 is still single, by the way....just throwing that out there.  =)

[ForeverDad]

Sorry, but if you're ending a BPD relationship, in nearly all cases you need to truly end it.  (A la cold turkey, to throw out a metaphor.)  There are no shared children so that's not a concern.  We've all heard the "can't we just be friends?"  (Actually it's often us who say it, since many of us were still trying to fix the other and found it so hard to detach.)

Now that you told her you accept her dumping you, she wants you back, well, how long until she dumps you yet again?  How do I nicely ask, forgive me, How can you not see how messed up this is?

"Can't we just be friends?"  Maybe with both persons being reasonably normal it might be possible, but with (1) abuse and (2) acting-out personality disorders, No.  It's somewhat similar to this:

Men can be friends with other men.  Sports, etc.
Women can be friends with other women.  Shopping, etc.
Mix a man and a woman together and usually they can't be "just friends".  Either the relationship progresses to boy/girl interaction or it withers.

BTW, your sister made an excellent analogy.  I love it!

[SaltyDawg]

[...continued...]

2020,

I am going to re-order your quotes so my comments/observations will build off each of my answers and your own self-realizations.


SaltyDawg, your hypothetical questions are helpful. I would recommend leaving #3, sorting out your own problems before getting involved with #1 or anyone.

This is an excellent idea, I believe taking time to yourself was raised by another member here, and it is a very good recommendation.  You have already indicated that #1 is willing to wait.  I sense you don't want to have the appearance of 'monkey branching' AND you want to clear your head to figure out what is best for you, 2020, as you have clearly indicated that you are 'confused as ever' about this situation.

I am going to be very blunt, again.  Please follow your own advice - take the necessary time to figure out what is best for 2020.  If #1 is a healthy relationship, she will wait long enough for you to figure this out - take at least a month, if not longer to do this.  However, please be mindful to keep #1 in the loop and let her know, by clearly articulating your intentions and a possible preliminary timeline to get this sorted out, as it would be unfair to #1 to string her along - so to speak as long as she is pining for you. 

I would suggesting posing a hypothetical question to #1, on how long she is willing to wait, and perhaps use this as a guide to set up a preliminary timeline to let #1 know of your intentions.


I just spoke to my sister on the phone. I was explaining this idea of seeing this situation from different viewpoints, like SaltyDawg suggested. She agreed, and added this…

What if it weren’t a relationship but a job? Imagine telling someone you had this job in a newsagents for example and the boss was yelling at you every day; calling you a POS. Anybody would be concerned upon hearing this. Particularly if you added that they were beating you up, thowing things at you, damaging your car and setting fire to your caravan, breaking your things and driving your friends and family away. And imagine them asking how long you had worked there for and you reply “more than ten years”. They would probably think you were crazy, especially when you tell them you are thinking of staying on for a few more years. And can you imagine the look on their faces when they say “they must pay really well for you to put up with that”, and you inform them you are a volunteer and work for free! 

2020, you grew up with your sister, your sister knows you better than any of us here.  Your sister has given you some really good insight into your situation, and it definitely sounds like she has your back, mate.  Given the hypothetical that your sister gave you, from a different kind of relationship - what are your thoughts on this?  I suspect it would be similar to the advice you gave yourself in the previous statement I quoted of you.  I hope your sister has given you additional clarity into your situation.  While no one can tell you what to do here - we are 'nudging' (well, okay 'pushing') you in a better and more emotionally healthy direction to help you navigate out of the FOG of your confusion so you can see the situation with better clarity.

Once you see the situation with better clarity, you can make a better, well informed choice on what is best for you, 2020 (and your son too).


Cat, I don’t know why I cling to this person. Maybe I don’t want to hurt her. She has nobody left in her life. I have known her for a long time. Perhaps I am just programmed this way?

Your statements, show great insight into why you are clinging to #3.  Your 'programming' should be addressed by your psychologist in upcoming visits, if you want to put more effort into this, I can point you in a good direction for codependent self-help materials that could possibly help you sooner. 

You and I both know that you don't want to hurt her, as you are a good hearted man.  However, sometimes you need to make a choice to prioritize the needs of the many (you & your son) which should outweigh the needs of the one (#3).

Now, I am going to challenge you with yet another few questions - you said she has no one left in her life, yet you have mentioned her family siding with her.  Even though her family is not as involved as you are, she still has family, and if you leave her, she can still reach out to her family.  Does #3 truly have 'no one left in her life' (her family) to help her out, albeit in a different capacity and manner than you do?  Or, have you taken it upon yourself to 'fix her' all by yourself (a very codependent trait) since you might view her family as not capable (this has been implied by you, although not expressed specifically - let me know if I am reading too much into this - also a very codependent trait, which will continue to enable #3)?

In 2004 I was discarded by Girlfriend #2 after 16 years together and children. I say I was single until about 2009. Had no sex with anyone, no intimacy, not even a hug. The reality was somewhat more complicated.

I continued to do the parent thing. Got the kids to school, paid for school excursions, bought their clothes and shoes. Had them stay with me most of the time. They had birthdays and Christmas because of me. Their mother just took drugs and made a mess of her life.

I never quite was single. She borrowed money, came to me when she was beaten up by her boyfriend. She wanted to go see bands with me, which I did, and paid for. Even booked accommodation interstate, only to have her slash her wrists in the motel room because a girl gave me a hug. She wanted all the perks of being in relationship, but without having to have responsibilities on her end.

I did this for years. On meeting #3 by chance, my psychologist told me I must not under any circumstance let #2 know, because she will poison everything.

I mention this because perhaps nothing has changed within me. History may well be repeating itself. I am interested what others may think here? It looks to me like I have lots of work to do on myself. I am probably not ready for another relationship. Can I even have friendships?

Thank you for sharing more details of #2 - you have provided some profound insight into yourself by discerning this.  I am going to reflect back to you my take-a-ways from what you have just said...

It's been 16 years with #2, and it also has been 16 years with #3 - I do not believe in coincidences like this - could be something here... just sayin... what do you think?

I agree 100% with your then psychologist, just as I have advised you not to let #3 know of #1 for the very same reason!  If #3 finds out about #1, it will go very badly, for #3, for you, and #1 too in addition to anyone close enough to you for collateral damage.

Your children are adults right now.  I am curious as to how much overlap there was between your psudo-relationship with #2, where you would continue to rescue #2, and do things with #2, when you were getting to know #3?

With your caretaking of #2, you clearly indicated that it did NOT get better, by stating "I have lots of work to do on myself".  It definitely sounds like #2 never got any better, if anything it got worse.  How is #3 going to be any different than #2?  I think you may have already answered this by stating "History may well be repeating itself."  What do you think?

You recognize that you are the problem by clearly stating "I have lots of work to do on myself".  You are now 'self-aware' of the issue, and from what you have expressed I firmly believe that you want to change this for the better - both are required to effect change. What can you do, right now, to make this change in your life, to make it better for you, your son, and your future?



Now I am going to circle back to the present...

Girlfriend #3 has been messaging me. Same story; saying she is sorry and that she misses me. I have told her I cannot be in a relationship with her, that we have had frequent conflict and a lot of abuse, and that I need to be alone. So I am getting the ‘can we be friends’ messages. It is just a nightmare really. It makes me very sad. And then last night she was sending drunken poems to me.

GF#3 is now realizing that she has likely gone too far, and is getting very desperate in wanting to stay together with you, as you have been her 'rock' when she has treated you like sh!t all of these years.  I will continue to hold up the mirror, and add to what your sister has said, who knows you better than any of us here.

This is going to be the most difficult time to cut ties with #3, who has family that can support her.  I know you feel really bad for her situation; however, like #2 whom you could not fix, you cannot fix #3 either, the only person you can fix is yourself.  You have an opportunity for change, only you can make those changes for your situation.

You find this decision very difficult, as you are a people pleaser, another codependent trait.


In the meantime Girlfriend #1 is ringing me and we talk for hours on end. She messages me during the day. There has been an incident where we disagreed on something and she took offense to my words. I guess I can be very direct at times and forget somebody is on the receiving end. She has been asking about whether I have contact with #3. I am being honest without giving details away. I’d say she is interested in a relationship with me.

I am curious how the 'disagreement' was resolved?  Having a disagreement is a very important flag - how this was handled will determine the color of this flag.  Please share in a way that you are comfortable sharing when you get a chance?

With regards to communicating #3 contact with you to #1 - be honest; however, frame it in a manner that can be digested by #1 without incurring too much damage to your potential relationship with #1.  I personally would say something along the lines of "#3 has been contacting me while she is drunk and sending me poetry, I do not have a mobile phone so I cannot block her easily on the landline.  I need to contact the phone company to see if they can block her" (unless you guys have special * numbers like we do here in the US).  Also, set up a rule in your e-mail client to redirect her e-mails to the trash or SPAM.  If you have a caller ID, on your landline, it would be easier not to pick up the phone when she rings you.


It is unfortunate this could not have happened when I was absolutely single, around 2004 to 2009 or so. I would have jumped at this then. Having #3 still in my life is going to be the end of this. I don’t think I would be persisting with a woman who still had the man from her last relationship messaging her every day.

I am in agreement with you, do not have #3 message you every day if you want to be in a relationship with #1, as I suspect #1 will not be so tolerant (as you are) of this.  You can make a change now, to make it work with #1 - what are you going to do about this?


I think I might just have to hide away for a while. Part of me thinks I should not have a relationship with anyone. And then I wonder if it is because I don’t want to upset these two women. It is as if I will rather miss out on something better in order to not upset someone, perhaps #3. Is that what this is? I don’t have a cell/mobile phone because I dont like answering them. I could quite easily just go offline five days a week in order to escape this. I am seriously reclusive. It is just a lot easier not being involved with other humans.

Hiding away for a little while to collect your thoughts and process "what is best for 2020" is okay.  However, running away from your problems and not addressing them is NOT okay by avoiding 'other humans' - unless you want to die alone, on your jack jones as a miserable cu** - just keeping it real here.  Figure out a time long enough, but not too long, as I suggested at the beginning of this post a month perhaps two - keep moving forward (even if you don't want to) - review this with your psychologist - if you next appointment is in a month's time, make a decision after your next meeting with the psychologist.


The way this is currently heading is a disaster in the making. I have two people trying to connect with me. I need to sort myself out. I have never stood up for me and I don’t even know if I can do it. It comes back to this realisation that for all the talk which goes on here about our loved ones and their issues, really the focus should be on ourselves, at least half of it surely?

I agree with everything in bold.  You know you need to stand up for yourself.  I have faith in you that you CAN DO IT, as you MUST do it if you have any chance at all for happiness with #1 or someone else in your life like your son.

You have our collective wisdom on this, in a good direction to go.  We cannot make you do anything, only you can make this decision for yourself.  What are you going to choose?

Take care.

Sorry for three posts in a row….

No need for an apology, post as much as you feel comfortable doing so, in order to gain the needed clarity that you need to do the right thing for you, 2020.

I see you just posted again, I will respond separately to that message.

SD

[Notwendy]

That is an important question- why is it that you can not let go of an abusive relationship?

#2 and #3- two long consecutive abusive relationships. People see these relationships from their own viewpoint and ask the question- why don't you just leave. But it's not so simple as that. There is something about the other person that is a part of that relationship. The question is- what is it?

One idea is a "Stockholm syndrome" where people become emotionally attached to their abuser. Simply put- all these years in an abusive situation- this is something you got used to?

I will take a wild guess at how this progressed with GF#1. It's not unusual that people find ways to look up old connections on social media now for different reasons- sometimes just curiosity. Sometimes it's a school alumni group or group contact.

If either person is married- that is a boundary. GF contacted you, learned you weren't married, neither is she- so it went beyond. Likely you confided in her that you were in an unhappy relationship and she assumed you were ready to give that up.

Now, she sees it's more complicated than that and is asking what your situation is with GF#3. She also wants to know why you seem to be hanging on to this relationship.

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   I am just checking in on you to make sure you are okay.  We haven't heard from you in a bit, like 10 or 11 days.  I would be interested in an update on how you are doing.

   Take care.

SD

[2020]

Thanks for checking in on me. I am still as confused and depressed as ever. What seemed like a beautiful thing has merely complicated my already complicated life.

I have seen the psychologist twice now. He is probably the best psychologist I have seen, so I am fortunate in that regard. My appointments are fortnightly. He is experienced in BPD so I don’t have to fill him in on the difficulties navigating such a relationship.

Basically I am now (still) in a situation where I have two women in my life both expressing they would like a relationship with me. As I do not want to hurt anybody, I am stuck in between. One side of me feels like I can continue with the 10 year plus pwBPD, as crazy as that sounds. I really feel for her and her struggles. This is of course fraught with danger and the outcome is unlikely to be anything different than what I have experienced thus far. It feels like a complete tragedy as I felt deeply in love with her (whatever that may be). I have shared a lot of my life with her.

On the other side is the first love of my life from decades ago. I was completely in awe of her as a young man. Things have changed. She has grown and changed over the time we have not been together. She is still essentially the same, but different. Her life has taken a different path and she has different interests to me in some ways, although there is still a lot we have in common. She is very direct and honest. She is very kind and loving too. She really wants me to be in her life which is nice to hear.

I have had messages from Girlfriend #3 which I am feeling great sadness about. I have met up with her once since I last posted here. It was a pleasant enough few hours. We sad by the seaside and talked. I have told her I don’t think I can be in a relationship with her because of the difficulties we had; the arguing, fighting, violence etc. She expressed remorse about this. She has told me she doesn’t want me gone from her life and would like to try being friends again.

My psychologist has said until I resolve things with #3, I will not be able to pursue anything with anyone else. This is the first decision I need to make. Also, he said that I will not be able to have a friendship with her at all. It needs to end completely, if that is the route I am choosing. He will support me in whatever decision I make. If I decide to stay with #3, then he will help me navigate that, but I need to realise that she may never change. He said he is not going to tell me what to do either; I need to decide this.

So basically, this is not a success story. It is a tale of doubling one’s misery. I am in perpetual depression and wake up using the f word before my eyes are open. What I thought was a release with my recent reconnection with the old flame from the past, has forced my hand. Yes she was a mirror held up to my destructive relationship, but now I have to make massive life changing decisions which I don’t think I am capable of doing. In the meantime I am taking this out on everyone, #1, #3, and my two sons, by expressing my desire to ride off into the sunset and become a missing person!

Not sure what I will do about this. If there is any chance of this getting worse, I am surely the person most capable of  it all up! 

[Notwendy]

Understandable that you feel the appearance of GF#1 has complicated your life but as you said- it's also turned a mirror on your relationship with GF#3 and prompted you to make one of these decisions:

1) Stay with GF#3. If you choose her though, you are not a victim in this situation- you have chosen it and you are now responsible for navigating that relationship with the advice of your therapist. He is correct that you can not change another person.

2) Discontinue your relationship with GF #3, emotionally recover and then be emotionally available to have another relationship- with GF#1 or other person. Your therapist is correct that one can not recover emotionally from a romantic relationship while staying "friends". You two aren't "friends"- the feelings are more complicated and intense.

3) Discontinue your relationships with both of them. Spend some time being single and working on your own emotional recovery/growth.

In summary-at the moment it's choose #3 exclusively, #1 exclusively, or neither of them.

What are the risks/benefits? #3 is familiar- you know what that relationship is like. It's difficult but that feels familiar to you and you have a long history with her.

The other two choices- outcome is unknown - the possible outcome might be better-- or not. That can feel scary. It's not familiar but there is also possibility of something different in these two choices.

Nobody can make a choice for you. I think you are correct in that some choice needs to be made - so you can move forward out of this "in between".

You weren't happy in your relationship but stayed in it. GF#1 comes into your life and you pursued that possibility.  Now you are in a dilemma because you feel forced to choose as if GF#1 did something to you to put you in a position you would not have done on your own- choose to end a difficult relationship.

But you always had the choice to end it all along. You also had the choice when GF#1 contacted you to not pursue it past a "nice to catch up with you, hope you are well, I am already in a relationship" message back to her.

Wanting to "run off and hide" is avoiding making a choice. Understandable - it's a difficult choice. You don't want to hurt either of them, but you can't stay with both of them- that is hurtful to them and you. Keep in mind, these two women didn't do this to you. You have a say in this too. Hopefully your therapist can help you come to some resolution and decision for how to move forward. You don't feel capable of doing so- that's important to learn why that is and it sounds like your T can help with that.

 

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

   Thank you for coming back and sharing an update with us.

Thanks for checking in on me. I am still as confused and depressed as ever. What seemed like a beautiful thing has merely complicated my already complicated life.

I know it seems and feels that way now.  However, you need to focus on becoming less confused and gain more clarity, so you can formulate what is best for you, and move forward in this matter.
 

I have seen the psychologist twice now. He is probably the best psychologist I have seen, so I am fortunate in that regard. My appointments are fortnightly. He is experienced in BPD so I don’t have to fill him in on the difficulties navigating such a relationship.

That's awesome to hear.  I am glad he can be of help to you.  Even though he is ethically prohibited from telling you which one to choose; perhaps, the next time you see him, perhaps reframe a question into a hypothetical, as to what he would do personally if he were in your shoes (like I have previously done, and will do again in this post). 

Basically I am now (still) in a situation where I have two women in my life both expressing they would like a relationship with me. As I do not want to hurt anybody, I am stuck in between. One side of me feels like I can continue with the 10 year plus pwBPD, as crazy as that sounds. I really feel for her and her struggles. This is of course fraught with danger and the outcome is unlikely to be anything different than what I have experienced thus far. It feels like a complete tragedy as I felt deeply in love with her (whatever that may be). I have shared a lot of my life with her.

You have shared a lot with #3, and for that matter #2 as well.  Now, I am going to challenge you a bit, why aren't you with #2 as well?  I seem to recall, your psychologist at the time told you not to.  That is why I am asking you to pose that hypothetical to your current one to help you in this matter.

On the other side is the first love of my life from decades ago. I was completely in awe of her as a young man. Things have changed. She has grown and changed over the time we have not been together. She is still essentially the same, but different. Her life has taken a different path and she has different interests to me in some ways, although there is still a lot we have in common. She is very direct and honest. She is very kind and loving too. She really wants me to be in her life which is nice to hear.

This sounds absolutely fabulous to me.  If I were in your shoes, I would take the chance on #1, especially if I were absolutely miserable being with number #3, especially in light of how badly she is treating you.

I have had messages from Girlfriend #3 which I am feeling great sadness about. I have met up with her once since I last posted here. It was a pleasant enough few hours. We sad by the seaside and talked. I have told her I don’t think I can be in a relationship with her because of the difficulties we had; the arguing, fighting, violence etc. She expressed remorse about this. She has told me she doesn’t want me gone from her life and would like to try being friends again.

Anyone can be pleasant enough for a few hours.  I personally know a serial killer and he is pleasant and charming too.  Pedophiles are really pleasant as well, they have to be in order to do what they do.  One can have sympathy for them; however, one should be aware of their true nature as well.  Also, anyone can feign remorse, the serial killer is remorseful that I personally know.  If she is so remorseful, whey did she throw candies at you the time before this one?  My feeling is that I suspect, she is only changing just enough to keep you from leaving, in order to appease you, so you won't leave, as she herself fears being abandoned by you.

My psychologist has said until I resolve things with #3, I will not be able to pursue anything with anyone else. This is the first decision I need to make. Also, he said that I will not be able to have a friendship with her at all. It needs to end completely, if that is the route I am choosing. He will support me in whatever decision I make. If I decide to stay with #3, then he will help me navigate that, but I need to realise that she may never change. He said he is not going to tell me what to do either; I need to decide this.

I agree 100% with what your psychologist has said.  You do need to resolve things with #3, and that this is indeed the first decision you need to make, sooner rather than later.  If you choose #3, you will have to let #1 go.  If you choose to leave #3, then you can have a relationship with #1 OR (not an AND) someone else of your choosing provided that they want to have one with you.  I also firmly believe that they borderlines will never fully change, since we last chatted, my pw BPD, my wife, who has made really good progress with her anger management issues, had a very bad borderline episode where she threw a snow shovel at / near my daughter, screamed at the top of her lungs for many minutes (better than the hours she used to) and brought my daughter to tears for two days straight after my wife split her black as night.  I personally believe, no matter how good they can become, and my wife is very motivated to do so, and my wife is really well intentioned; however, my wife still had a bad borderline lapse. 

So basically, this is not a success story.

It is not YET a success story, this will depend on what choices you make, and that will depend on how you resolve the issue with #3.  I have given you my opinion on what I would do in your shoes.  You have given your logical opinion on what you would recommend to do for a friend in a similar position that you are in - please follow your own advice, as this is the path that has the highest chance of success.  Your sister has given you her opinion on how you should proceed.  Yet, ....

It is a tale of doubling one’s misery.

I couldn't have said that better - Yet, you are perpetuating "this tale of doubling one's misery" as you so aptly put it.  Only you can stop this misery - what can you do to stop this misery from continuing on?

I am in perpetual depression and wake up using the f word before my eyes are open. What I thought was a release with my recent reconnection with the old flame from the past, has forced my hand.

Yes, #1, is forcing your hand.  She is offering an escape from the abuse you have suffered, yet you are bound by the trauma bond, and you are compelled to stay with #3 to save a person, who has shown no sign of wanting to be saved from her own behaviors.  #1 cannot save you from yourself.  I cannot save you from yourself.  Other members here, cannot save you either.  The only person who can save you, is the person you see is the man in the mirror!

You are the proverbial horse that has been led to the water, it is up to you to drink from that water, we cannot force you to drink, even though are dying of thirst for a much healthier relationship.  Only the horse can decide if it wants to drink.

Yes she was a mirror held up to my destructive relationship, but now I have to make massive life changing decisions which I don’t think I am capable of doing. In the meantime I am taking this out on everyone, #1, #3, and my two sons, by expressing my desire to ride off into the sunset and become a missing person!

Not sure what I will do about this. If there is any chance of this getting worse, I am surely the person most capable of  it all up!

This is no laughing matter.  This is very serious.  You know that change must occur, before it can get better.  I have faith in your ability that you can do this change.  In fact you have already changed by moving forward by meeting #1, and started an intimate relationship with #1.  You know what you will be getting with #1 is a lot better than #3.  You also know what you will be getting with #3 if you choose #3 - she will most likely revert to her old behaviors given enough time.  With #3, you have a 'sunk cost' in her; however, you will never recover what you have invested in her, here is a good analogy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

Right now you are taking it out on everyone who you hold dear, #1, #3, and your two sons.  Do any of these people deserve being treated this way?  I am wondering if you shared your dilemma with either of your sons, what would they encourage you to do?

If you continue to be really distraught about this, I would suggest talking to someone about it.  I did find the local hotline for Australian residents 24/7 at https://www.lifeline.org.au/  or you could ring/text 13 11 14 for additional emotional support for both your depression and your indecision on what to do.

I do care for you, and your two sons.  I also care what is best for #3 (to minimize the drama she has with you - best to remove that drama), and also #1 as well (so you don't keep her waiting).

Circling back to the serial killer I mentioned earlier, he is my step brother, and I have chosen to go No Contact with him several years ago - I do not regret this decision at all, even though I did at the time.

Keep coming back, and update us from time to time, it is greatly appreciated.

Take care, and be sure to do self-care.

SD

[Pook075]

So basically, this is not a success story. It is a tale of doubling one’s misery. I am in perpetual depression and wake up using the f word before my eyes are open. What I thought was a release with my recent reconnection with the old flame from the past, has forced my hand. Yes she was a mirror held up to my destructive relationship, but now I have to make massive life changing decisions which I don’t think I am capable of doing. In the meantime I am taking this out on everyone, #1, #3, and my two sons, by expressing my desire to ride off into the sunset and become a missing person!

For the "average" person here, I'd guess that it takes them 12-24 months or more to truly heal from a BPD relationship.  So try to keep things in perspective- you're only a few months out and you've added a wildcard in a first love. 

This is complicated because it's actually complicated- at first, you thought you could skip the grieving process and ride off into the sunset with #1.  It felt so good because it wasn't the chaos with #3, but at the same time it wasn't giving you a fair chance to heal or find yourself once again.  Ten years in a bad relationship is a very long time; it simply can't be fixed or erased in a few months.

My point here is that you're not doing anything wrong and your feelings aren't betraying you; it simply hasn't been enough time to genuinely heal.  That's why the priority right now has to be you (#1) and your children (#2).  I agree with the psychiatrist as well- you need to be all-in or all-out with the recent relationship.  Doing a little of both keeps you from healing and moving on in a healthy way.

If fate brought girlfriend #1 back into your life, then that same fate will ensure she's still around once you process through this.  Take the time for you to heal and grow and grieve, I promise you'll be a better person for it a year from now.

[seekingtheway]

If you continue to be really distraught about this, I would suggest talking to someone about it.  I did find the local hotline for Australian residents 24/7 at https://www.lifeline.org.au/  or you could ring/text 13 11 14 for additional emotional support for both your depression and your indecision on what to do.

Just jumping on to say that a better hotline to call here in Australia is the 1800 RESPECT helpline, which is a free helpline for people dealing with abusive relationships. The counsellors are amazing and they'll chat to you for up to an hour at a time. You can call as often as you need. They've helped me with my relationship, and just helped to lift me out of those depressive states where I felt I didn't have clarity and felt stuck in my own head.

Sometimes all that's needed is time and space to get true perspective. I hope you're able to access both those things.

[SaltyDawg]

Just jumping on to say that a better hotline to call here in Australia is the 1800 RESPECT helpline, which is a free helpline for people dealing with abusive relationships. The counsellors are amazing and they'll chat to you for up to an hour at a time. You can call as often as you need. They've helped me with my relationship, and just helped to lift me out of those depressive states where I felt I didn't have clarity and felt stuck in my own head.

SeekingTheWay,

   Thanks for suggesting that, I am not a local.  I have visited for a couple of months (whilst working) on the SE coast of Qld. but that was in 97 & 99.

SD

[ForeverDad]

Quite interesting and excellent that your therapist laid out before you the various future scenarios before you.  Therapists are there for consultation and assistance but it is always the patient who decides which path to take.  That in itself can be daunting.  Guess what, even not making a choice, letting things carry on as they have in the past, that inaction too is a choice.

However, we here in peer support, remote and anonymous as we are here, don't have that same level of policy.  We can share our collective wisdom, experiences and conclusions.  (Well, I think so, right?)  So let me excerpt from a recent post by one of our long-time respected members who wrote rather clearly - and dare I say bluntly - about most of the BPD relationships reported here in this separating board.

I want to address your emotional state... From what you’ve shared about your <GF#3>, I’d give the odds that she’d have an epiphany and would come to an empathetic understanding of how her behavior has impacted you negatively over the years—at about 0%.

That you continue to hope for some level of understanding from her is likely to cause you angst in perpetuity...

What I’ve learned is: IT AIN’T NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.

*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

I’m OK with them painting me as the one at fault, the negative influence, the *bad guy*. After all, I know by now that nothing I say or do will change their mind about me. They will think what they think, and that can change from minute to minute.

Letting go of my attachment to their positive regard frees me up mentally and emotionally to be the best version of myself in the moment.

I have one question for you.  Knowing that you already know which choices would be better for you, can you trust your logical brain sufficiently to proceed now with a best case choice going forward until your emotional heart can catch up?

After all, GF#3 had dumped you for months, even years, oops until she noticed you were removing yourself from simmering on her back burner and is suddenly trying to yank you back onto a front burner (a stove top analogy).

Okay, another question.  Will you choose to accept her long term dumping, or instead her last minute gasp of "oh no, I will really lose him, I will promise him a token to keep him around but still at a distance"?

[2020]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to write. Things have taken a turn here and I am not sure what to make of it.

I thought things with girlfriend #1 were going well. I wasn’t walking on eggshells and she was being very kind and generous to me. I felt like I was being very well looked after. Recently in our conversations, we were having increasing disagreements. Often the subject matter would be trivial, at least to me.

I was in this punk band in the mid 80’s; kind of a send up of punk in a way. Comedy-punk perhaps? We had these stage personas where we hated everything. You know, how punks invented derogatory names for themselves… Well in our recent hook up, we had been reminiscing those days and I guess I have been going into character again. Just a bit of banter I guess you’d call it. At least that is how I perceived it…

The last couple of days have been odd. I know we can’t go making assumptions, but I am getting this push/pull vibe. It is like there is suddenly this built up resentment towards me. Like my jokes have been taken personally. I admit I can be cynical and pessimistic, but I have been painted out to be this negative  hole who likes to put everbody down.

Yesterday she rang me and I thought the phone call was going well. Suddenly she declares that we are not a good match, sorry, and it is over. I was quite taken back and hurt. At the same time she is telling me she really likes me though. She is then asking me what I’ll do now, and I said I might just go back to bed for a bit. This might not have gone down well 

Last night I am getting messages again from her. I was trying to explain (JADE-ing perhaps?) that it is unfortunate that I have not had the time to show her a different side to me; the more serious one that is loving and cares about people around me. She seems to have cherry picked some joking around comments I have made about inanimate objects and taken them very personally. I am beginning to see she is rather sensitive. Although there has been a passage of time since the 80’s, I think we are in many ways the same people we were back then, just an extension of that. She knows what my personality is like, I would have assumed.

Last night she says “thanks for fixing my washing machine” and wants to know what she should do with the shirt I left there. I told her it is old and she can toss it out. Then she is upset about that, saying a less than perfect shirt is no use to someone like me.

She tells me she needs a loving creative relationship in her life and she is now feeling down because she had to break up with her boyfriend today. I ask about these other ‘suitors’. She says she has many other men in her life but that isn’t the point. She tells me it is insane. She spends all day checking her messages waiting for me to type something. I reminded her that she said I was on trial, and unfortunately I have failed her test. She said but now she misses me. “Damned if I do etc….”

Maybe I am just crap at relationships. I am going to have to spend this year looking at this in therapy. Is it possible that I picked the same partner three times, or a version of the same partner? Or am I reading too much into this? I was due to see her in a couple of days, but there is no mention of this now. And in the meantime I am receiving fluctuating messages from girlfriend #3.

I did say I can’t really lose, earlier on in the piece. Well I guess I have a double loss now. It isn’t all bad. I get to have some alone time and to look at myself. I really don’t want a repeat of the same old…. I am not entirely convinced that #1 is finished with me yet. And that might be a worry, even a red flag. 

Reading this back…..Am I missing something here? I am, aren’t I? Is this some kind of test. I’m not all that good at this!

[Notwendy]

There's a 40 year gap of time between now and when the two of you had a relationship. When you two got together this time, your references were when you knew each other. Now you are discovering there are differences, even conflicts- that would be inevitable with a time span of so long.

I have at times, met up with people I knew as a teen through school reunions. It's exciting to reunite with friends- we are happy to see each other- in that context. For a brief time, we feel as if time didn't pass, but the idea of suddenly invading their current lives- it would be disruptive. We all have full separate lives, friends, families. With some of them, we might not even be friends at all now because we are so different. For others, there may be potential but it would also feel like starting over. I agree with you that our basic personalities aren't different however, we have had different experiences and changed in ways.

I think it's unrealistic to think the two of you could just rewind to your teen years and go from there. Are there issues- sure. But you have  s as well, having been in a dysfunctional relationship for a long time. She has her own history of emotional trauma too. But to make more meaning out of this- such as saying she has BPD or if this relationship could work or not- there isn't enough to know that now.

FWIW, I dislike it when someone clowns around making derogatory statements - the kind of comedy you describe. It's not that it's "right" or "wrong"- it's just not a style of comedy that appeals to me. Now that you know this about your GF#1- just don't do it around her. It doesn't have to be an argument. People can like or dislike different things.

I think you "missed the boat" when she brought up the possibility that the two of you might not be compatible. This was an emotional statement on her part. When she asked you what you were going to do, she didn't mean what are you going to do right now in the concrete sense. She wanted to know how you felt about that. A response like "well I'm just going to bed" could sound like you aren't that interested in her or concerned about what she just said.

She may be better than you are at communcating her feelings- that is OK - but such an answer seems emotionally disconnected from the situation. It's also OK if you were tired and didn't want to get into an emotional discussion but another way to say it would be "of course that would upset me but it is late and I am too tired to have a discussion about this- I'd like to talk about it tomorrow". 

It's possible that when she said the two of you aren't a good match, she didn't mean "break up" and don't talk to each other, but that she is wondering about it. I don't know what to make of the comment about the shirt but it may have been said in frustration.

So rather than focus on what her problems might be, turn the focus back on you. You call this a double loss, but actually, it could also be a gift- that someone came into your life and shed some light on the dysfunctional relationship you were in with GF#3 and going from that relationship into another is not an instant solution for your own part in that relationship. It's a gift if you see this as an opportunity to move forward. If you go back to GF#3, you know what you are choosing- more of the same that you had before you reconnected with GF#1. The other two choices- be alone and not in a relationship or continue with GF#1 have unknown outcomes.

Here is what is written in some books on dysfunctional relationships: If you end one and go into another without looking at your part in the disordered relationship, there's a risk you will recreate similar disorder with someone else- because you are the same person in both of them. So how do you reduce the risk? By looking at how you could do things differently. The only person you can change is you. Maybe you don't have the best relationship skills, having been in the relationship with GF#3 but you won't gain more by going back to her or being a hermit either. The tools here on this board for having more validating conversations can be helpful for any relationships, not only for pwBPD.

Another option is to take it slow with GF#1- and try getting to know each other now, as the adults you are. Maybe she's correct- that the two of you are not compatible but if you don't get into a lot of drama- you two could arrive at this conclusion and have some closure while still being civil to each other.