40 years later: First love of my life has reappeared

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hello family,

I haven’t posted for ages but I do read here often, and I don’t think I have posted in ‘Conflicted’ before. I am very conflicted right now!

I am in a really odd situation. As my relationship with my partner has deteriorated around me to the point of barely existing, a week ago I received a message on a website I seldom look at from the first love of my life whom I have not spoken to for a very long time. We are talking the 1980s here! We were basically kids, well, teenagers and in our early 20’s together.

Our relationship ended one night over something trivial really, and a couple of months later I was love bombed by somebody whilst drunk. She moved in, we had kids. It was 16 years of hell. It ended one morning when she booted my 13 year old son at the time, and I, onto the street. Somehow we went from squatting in a garage to renting under a house.

I sat alone, totally miserable for six years approx, then an angel fell from the heavens and my life felt complete…. or so I thought. We were friends for a few years. It did have its moments. After my mother died we moved in together and well, it has been a difficult relationship. Probably as bad or worse than the previous one.

Currently she lives out of town nearby and I see her everyday. I spend most nights there, sleep there, but the intimacy dried up six months or so ago. It was sporadic prior to this. To be honest, the relationship has been a disaster. No matter how hard I have tried to hold it together, it is just abuse on a daily basis. I will spare you the details and try get to the point.

Out of the blue, I receive a message from this girl. It is a pretty innocent “hi, hope you are well” message. And it has since become something which I am having difficulty understanding. I am having all these very strong feelings towards her. Our text conversations go on for hours and it is like we have not had almost 40 years absence. The conversations are becoming intimate and romantic.

I am very confused. I had pretty much dug in and resigned myself to a difficult caretaking role with the current spouse, but this recent development has sent me in a tailspin. I have never actually had feelings like this before. I just don’t know what to do with this. It is totally out of the blue and has had me completely rethinking my life. I’d appreciate any comments or wisdom how to proceed… thanks!

[2020]

Hello family,

I haven’t posted for ages but I do read here often, and I don’t think I have posted in ‘Conflicted’ before. I am very conflicted right now!

I am in a really odd situation. As my relationship with my partner has deteriorated around me to the point of barely existing, a week ago I received a message on a website I seldom look at from the first love of my life whom I have not spoken to for a very long time. We are talking the 1980s here! We were basically kids, well, teenagers and in our early 20’s together.

Our relationship ended one night over something trivial really, and a couple of months later I was love bombed by somebody whilst drunk. She moved in, we had kids. It was 16 years of hell. It ended one morning when she booted my 13 year old son at the time, and I, onto the street. Somehow we went from squatting in a garage to renting under a house.

I sat alone, totally miserable for six years approx, then an angel fell from the heavens and my life felt complete…. or so I thought. We were friends for a few years. It did have its moments. After my mother died we moved in together and well, it has been a difficult relationship. Probably as bad or worse than the previous one.

Currently she lives out of town nearby and I see her everyday. I spend most nights there, sleep there, but the intimacy dried up six months or so ago. It was sporadic prior to this. To be honest, the relationship has been a disaster. No matter how hard I have tried to hold it together, it is just abuse on a daily basis. I will spare you the details and try get to the point.

Out of the blue, I receive a message from this girl. It is a pretty innocent “hi, hope you are well” message. And it has since become something which I am having difficulty understanding. I am having all these very strong feelings towards her. Our text conversations go on for hours and it is like we have not had almost 40 years absence. The conversations are becoming intimate and romantic.

I am very confused. I had pretty much dug in and resigned myself to a difficult caretaking role with the current spouse, but this recent development has sent me in a tailspin. I have never actually had feelings like this before. I just don’t know what to do with this. It is totally out of the blue and has had me completely rethinking my life. I’d appreciate any comments or wisdom how to proceed… thanks!

[ForeverDad]

Yes, there is something special about reconnecting with a decades-old crush.  That was someone from my younger years (25-30) and is among my treasured memories.  Nothing happened then - and nothing now - but I did reconnect after my marriage ended.  Though we're both single, we both got older, and grew into other persons, sadly.

I have a few thoughts here...

First is that you are in a committed relationship, though it is pretty much on the rocks recently.  Are you contemplating ending it?  Are there any complicating factors?  Children?  Commingled assets or debts?

Second is that you must beware rebound relationships, that is, starting a new relationship too soon.  You need to gift yourself time to unpack and recover from your current relationship before contemplating another.  I recall one mistake I made, a common one, I kept talking about my parenting struggles with my ex.  It's one thing to inform, quite another to keep reverting to the angst from the past failed relationships.

And of course this is your life.  There's also this girls own life and circumstances to consider.  If there's a future here, then it just makes sense to determine when and how to adjust your life to allow something healthy to happen.

[ThanksForPlaying]

That's exciting! It's nice to find a connection like that.

Consider how this new relationship is developing. You said you originally ended it over something trivial and went basically NC for 40 years? Were there any red flags with that original relationship?

This time around, is it evolving naturally? You haven't yet met up in person? Does it seem overly love-bomby? I'm only suggesting that you might want to look out for red flags. BPDs somehow have a way of seeking out us Nons, even after many years.

Having said that... you certainly don't want to be closed off from the possibility of a healthy relationship. Keep us posted.

[2020]

Thank you both for your considered and sensible replies. I think I am getting swept away a bit here. I have only been in three relationships before, and believe me, from what I have learnt about myself on this site and the experiences of others, it is not that unrealistic to think that all three of these are women with BPD traits. And yes, it does seem love-bomby.

I am just so worn out from this ten year plus daily abuse, that when this comes along, I am flattered and it seems like a way out of my misery.

I met this girl at an art college event in ‘86. She was seventeen; black messy hair over her eyes, red lipstick, blackened eyes, beautiful cheek bones. She was wearing an oversized patched coat her brother’s friend had stolen from a scarecrow in Germany. It was love at first sight. I had never even kissed a girl before.

A couple of weeks later she said that she needed to talk to me. “You know how people meet and then they have sex? Well I can’t do that.” I was saddened to hear this but was not going to rush into anything like that. We hung out together all the time.

About a year later I was at her parents place one weekend when she said she didn’t want me to go home. They lived semi-rural at the end of the railway track. We hatched a plan to meet around midnight at the old milking shed. Well, that night was the first time I was with a woman. I was a young artist and she was my muse.

Unfortunately we got ourselves in a spot of bother. There was a pregnancy to deal with and her mother was very upset with me. This resulted in the girl leaving art school and cutting me out of her life. I sent her letters, handwritten with serifs…. this is pre-internet, written with a quill and bottled ink. (no I am not kidding). But she never replied.

About ten months later she called on the phone. We met up and gradually we grew together again. We went on long rail journeys to other cities. Stayed with her aunt and uncle. She decided to stay with them, which left me with a two day rail journey every month to go and spend time with her. Eventually she moved back but one night told me she had gone out on a date with another guy whilst away.

That night I ran from her. I moved in with a friend. I got messages through people that she wanted to contact me but I had been love bombed a week earlier by another woman.

I ended up with this other woman and had kids with her, and the whole time, I am ashamed to admit, I was never really in love with her. I just didn’t want to break her heart. It was a horrible abusive relationship, either bipolar or bpd or both. I got thrown out in 2004 and sat for six years alone on my doorstep drinking coffee and smoking…. and that is when number 3 came into my life. She even looked similar to the first love I had all those years ago…

And now she has reappeared, and my brain is very confused. I was not expecting this. I had thought I would be a caretaker for the rest of my life with number 3. And it has in the last year or so become so dreadful that I cannot live with her. I spend each day with her most of the time, but I am grateful I have a room at my son’s house.

I don’t want to break anyones heart. I have never been anything but loyal to people I have been involved with. Never been unfaithful. I just don’t know how to handle this. Do I drive the 200km and see the person I first met? Would that be bad or risky? It would be difficult to do discretely. She really wants to see me and I want to see her. I really hope I am not walking into a minefield here. Maybe I need some time by myself?

Thank you for listening, and Merry Christmas! I hope the season is not too stressful for you all.

[Cat Familiar]

This seems like an unexpected Christmas *gift* of sorts. Perhaps it’s just validation that you are a desirable man and that there is an alternative to the life you’ve chosen. Or perhaps there’s truly a connection here and a possibility for a healthy relationship.

Time will tell.

In the meantime, you are in a dysfunctional relationship that is bringing you no joy.

It seems you have a decision to make about your future. Will you continue with the present you know? Or will you choose to explore a possibility that has shown up?

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

  you are playing with emotional fire, somebody will get hurt badly.

Having an affair with your highschool sweetheart has different rules than a normal affair does.  A normal affair will usually fail within 2 years or much sooner; however, one with your 'first' love usually around highschool the opposite usually happens, they have about a 90% success rate.

I know you are loyal and it sounds like you have a decent moral compass; however, you are on the conflicted board, so this leads me to believe that you no longer want to be in the 16 year relationship that you are presently in.

It is okay to end a relationship with a borderline person; however, there are consequences for doing so, financial, as well as your relationship with any children, relationships with mutual friends, and so forth.  Also, of my 3 relationships, two have been with borderline women, and there have been several other borderline women who have expressed an interest in me - simply put, "I attract CRAZY".  Make sure you don't either.

From what you remember of your 'muse' from back then, what kind of moral values did she have?  What kind did her parents have, as we more often than not base our own moral values on those of our parents, no matter how functional or dysfunctional they might be.

I would suggest talking at length with a licensed therapist, prior to doing anything like this.

Can you share with us if your original muse is aware of your current relationship status, if so, what exactly have you shared?  If you shared, how do you think your original muse would interpret your actions towards her?

You are in a tricky place right now.  You need to stop (or pause), assess what is best for your situation, your children, be willing to take the consequences of your actions, and then fully commit one way or another.

I am not telling you what to do; however, I do suggest thinking long an hard before making an irreversible life altering decision like this.

Do some self-care to clear your head.

Take care.

SD

[2020]

Thanks for the replies. I really need help with this. I never imagined this coming along and it is worrying me.

It is giving me validation that I might be desireable after all. I spend my days being a carer for my autistic 22 year old son, and my current partner. Neither of then see eye to eye so there are two homes which I run between every day. For a year the distance between was several hours of driving; now it is half an hour. I have become more and more miserable as I willingly hand my life over to my son and my partner and have nothing left for myself. I am 57 years old. My energy levels are so depleted that I am tired and worn out all day. And now this falls from the sky. I have gotten myself in quite a pickle.

I do not want to hurt anyone. But I am hurting, myself. I have become very unwell over the past few years. I have not been able to see any great change from using ‘the tools’ here. As this relationship has now ground down to this point, I am having to seriously look at some things.

I have become a master eggshell walker. I have sold myself short and become a person I do not want to be. I filter the truth to my partner. I will be honest but dare not tell her everything.

As far as the new first love coming back into the picture, we have had texting marathons and two very long phone calls. We have a lot to talk about regarding our shared past and the intervening years. It sounds like she has had quite a difficult time. There has been some complex addiction problems, bad relationships, death in the family and friends passing. I have had my fair share of the above too. From our discussions, there seems some apprehension from her about rushing into things. I believe she has turned her life around and now is involved with Chinese medicine, healthy eating etc. I don’t think I am walking into some drug nightmare or abuse… at least I hope not!

I have mentioned the current woman in my life, but have not been explicit as to the level of involvement it is at. The truth is I am enmeshed in an unhappy relationship where I even fear if I left she would kill herself. I find it hard to leave to go home during the day for a few hours to check in with my son. I feel controlled and trapped. My son jokingly says I am a victim of domestic violence. Maybe he is right?

Obviously I will have to confess to this. I need to have an honest conversation to this first love of mine. In all fairness, she at least needs to know where it’s at. And I need to be honest for myself. I can’t keep texting romantic messages and live in this arrangement. It wont be easy, but maybe this is the time where I have to stand up for myself, for something, and stop being a squid. I really don’t like what I have become. Kind of like a secret agent.

Like I said, I never expected this would happen, but now it has, everything has become more complicated than ever. I would really like to go and see this girl but I don’t know how to do that. I am under constant duties here. And these feelings I am getting are really strong. I am in uncharted waters having never experienced this before.

I am sorry for the long post. I am very confused and worried. I just can’t live like this. It is no good at all. Thanks for reading.

[2020]

A further thing with my current partner, is a couple of years ago whilst drunk, she got her son to contact an old work colleague of hers who had a crush on her, and got his phone number. She then dressed up, put on her boots and visited him at 3am. She came back home the next afternoon and slept.

She has been in contact with him since. I have read about Drama Triangles here. I can see somewhat what might be going on. Since she has moved back closer, she has been seeing him. She claims he isjust a friend and he is dying of cancer. Not sure what the truth is.

There have been three instances I am aware of recently where she has gone and stayed the night at his place. It usually happens when I arrive at her place, she gets angry at me, accuses me of things which aren’t true, tells me we aren’t in a relationship, tells me to  off, and I leave. Or she becomes physically violent, in which case I make sure I always leave. That’s when she stays with him for a day or two. I am not 100% sure whether it is a sexual relationship. She has told me he has told her she needs to leave me.

I can only guess what she says to him. What I do know is there has been nothing intimate between the two of us for months. She has told me she is never having sex with me again and that I repulse her. I am the worst thing which has happened to her. But you know how these people exaggerate….   It has done significant damage between us. And here I am now having an emotional affair myself, which could possibly become physical. I am not sure what is going on with me or what to do. I need to figure out something.

[ForeverDad]

While the peer support here is helpful and insightful and free - donations gratefully accepted - it is also remote and anonymous.  As mentioned by SaltyDawg, you most certainly would benefit from in-person counseling.  The downside is that it generally isn't free, sessions are usually limited to an hour and it may take time to find a counselor that is a good fit for you.

The truth is I am enmeshed in an unhappy relationship where I even fear if I left she would kill herself.

This is a perfect question for a counselor or therapist.  In short, you both are adults.  Just as your partner is not responsible for your life, you are not responsible for your partner's life.  You can't "fix" another adult.  You just can't.

The most you could do is to point her in the right direction and then support her.  Of course, such efforts would likely be resisted with Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting.  You already know that.

Over in our Topic discussing The Bridge there is a post there about The Backyard Black Hole.  (If you haven't read The Bridge, then please read it too.)

The Bridge
The Backyard Black Hole

In short, no matter what you do or say to comply, appease or whatever, there is little if anything you can do to help long term ... unless your spouse wants and tries to improve himself/herself.  Only a very few can do so without experienced guides by means of intensive therapy.

[2020]

Thank you for the reply. I have read the rope analogy and also, I realised I had read the hole one too! Shame I haven’t quite digested it yet.

Yesterday I had a bunch of kind messages from the old flame from the past. Because I was dealing with crazy  from my current partner, I could not find space or a private moment to reply.

This is not sustainable. I am seriously thinking hard about having a break from all relationship matters until such time as I can sort myself out first. It is all well and good trying to figure out why other people bevave the way they do, but really what is essential is to look at oneself. I am in Australia and have access to 12 free visits per year with a psychologist or counsellor. We had a flood here in March 2022 and the man I had been seeing for years was washed away and has now decided to retire. I need to find someone else. That would be a start.

I need to talk to this first love of mine and have an honest discussion. I actually believe she will be very understanding of this as she has been in similar situations herself. She wants to meet up. Not sure how I will do this as it is a day trip…

[SaltyDawg]

It is giving me validation that I might be desireable after all. I spend my days being a carer for my autistic 22 year old son, and my current partner. Neither of then see eye to eye so there are two homes which I run between every day. For a year the distance between was several hours of driving; now it is half an hour. I have become more and more miserable as I willingly hand my life over to my son and my partner and have nothing left for myself. I am 57 years old. My energy levels are so depleted that I am tired and worn out all day. And now this falls from the sky. I have gotten myself in quite a pickle.

Regarding your autistic 22 yo son.  I am not familiar with AU health care - I know where I live (East Coast USA) there are available group homes for adults with mental disabilities - you might want to check that out if it is available in your area.  You indicated that you are 57 and you are very tired, and you won't be around forever either.  It also sounds like you need to do a bit of self-care, as you are suffering in your own mental and/or physical health.


I do not want to hurt anyone. But I am hurting, myself. I have become very unwell over the past few years. I have not been able to see any great change from using ‘the tools’ here. As this relationship has now ground down to this point, I am having to seriously look at some things.

If you are hurting yourself, you need to do self-care, whatever that looks like for you.  The tools are effective up to a point for disordered persons.


I have become a master eggshell walker. I have sold myself short and become a person I do not want to be. I filter the truth to my partner. I will be honest but dare not tell her everything.

Same here, I do the same with my uBPDw.  After realizing my wife likely is a borderline, and I will never get back the lovebombing wife that I first fell in love with, I too am feeling as though I am selling myself short - it is the fear, obligation, and guilt that is keeping me here (FOG).


As far as the new first love coming back into the picture, we have had texting marathons and two very long phone calls. We have a lot to talk about regarding our shared past and the intervening years. It sounds like she has had quite a difficult time. There has been some complex addiction problems, bad relationships, death in the family and friends passing. I have had my fair share of the above too. From our discussions, there seems some apprehension from her about rushing into things. I believe she has turned her life around and now is involved with Chinese medicine, healthy eating etc. I don’t think I am walking into some drug nightmare or abuse… at least I hope not!

Thank you for sharing.  From what you have described, I see several flags  .  Addiction is very serious, bad relationships (you may be moving from one bad relationship to another, as even at a very early age, one attracts the same kind of people over and over again, I am seeing this in my 17 yo D with her BF, both are parentified caretakers whose mum's are likely disordered). 


I have mentioned the current woman in my life, but have not been explicit as to the level of involvement it is at. The truth is I am enmeshed in an unhappy relationship where I even fear if I left she would kill herself. I find it hard to leave to go home during the day for a few hours to check in with my son. I feel controlled and trapped. My son jokingly says I am a victim of domestic violence. Maybe he is right?

If you don't want to feel controlled and trapped, setting firm enforceable boundaries are the way to go.  Jokingly or not, you need to assess this.  If she hits, kicks, bites, punches, pushes, or does this to walls, furniture, etc. - you are in a DV situation, and you should have a safety plan.

Since you mentioned your current woman to the new one - what is your first love's opinion of this.


Obviously I will have to confess to this. I need to have an honest conversation to this first love of mine. In all fairness, she at least needs to know where it’s at. And I need to be honest for myself. I can’t keep texting romantic messages and live in this arrangement. It wont be easy, but maybe this is the time where I have to stand up for myself, for something, and stop being a squid. I really don’t like what I have become. Kind of like a secret agent.

Am I correct in assuming that your 22 yo son is not from the current dead-end relationship you are in?  Do you have any children with the current dead-end woman?  You are right, you cannot keep doing this, you will have to tactfully disclose your situation.  It may scare off your your new first love, or it could deepend.  In either scenario you have already had an emotional affair with your renewed first love with your current dead-end woman.


Like I said, I never expected this would happen, but now it has, everything has become more complicated than ever. I would really like to go and see this girl but I don’t know how to do that. I am under constant duties here. And these feelings I am getting are really strong. I am in uncharted waters having never experienced this before.

No one ever expects this to happen, you are in 'uncharted waters'.  Since you have dual duties, one to your son, one to the dead-end relationship.  Perhaps start by talking about your son, as that seems very important to you.


I am sorry for the long post. I am very confused and worried. I just can’t live like this. It is no good at all. Thanks for reading.

No need to apologize, 'no worries, mate'.  You need to do a lot of soul searching, I won't tell you to go one way or another; however, I will reflect back to you what you said, and ask some questions to help you reflect.


A further thing with my current partner, is a couple of years ago whilst drunk, she got her son to contact an old work colleague of hers who had a crush on her, and got his phone number. She then dressed up, put on her boots and visited him at 3am. She came back home the next afternoon and slept.

  Talk about a bomb-shell, it is like your current partner wants things to end, no good can come of being all dressed up meeting a crush at 3 AM.  Does she know you know about this?


She has been in contact with him since. I have read about Drama Triangles here. I can see somewhat what might be going on. Since she has moved back closer, she has been seeing him. She claims he isjust a friend and he is dying of cancer. Not sure what the truth is.

There have been three instances I am aware of recently where she has gone and stayed the night at his place. It usually happens when I arrive at her place, she gets angry at me, accuses me of things which aren’t true, tells me we aren’t in a relationship, tells me to  off, and I leave. Or she becomes physically violent, in which case I make sure I always leave. That’s when she stays with him for a day or two. I am not 100% sure whether it is a sexual relationship. She has told me he has told her she needs to leave me.

  - You have shared so many red flags, why are you still in this relationship.  It usually is FOG - fear obligation and guilt.


I can only guess what she says to him. What I do know is there has been nothing intimate between the two of us for months. She has told me she is never having sex with me again and that I repulse her. I am the worst thing which has happened to her. But you know how these people exaggerate….   It has done significant damage between us. And here I am now having an emotional affair myself, which could possibly become physical. I am not sure what is going on with me or what to do. I need to figure out something.

Borderlines do exaggerate, and from what you have shared.  She is definitely having an emotional affair, if not a physical one too.  For me, I ended the previous relationship I had with another uBPD/uNPD/+exgf for her cheating on me - it was a firm boundary for me.  As long as you do not have children together, and you can easily separate your finances, you may want to consider ending your current relationship permanently.


Yesterday I had a bunch of kind messages from the old flame from the past. Because I was dealing with crazy  from my current partner, I could not find space or a private moment to reply.

This is not sustainable. I am seriously thinking hard about having a break from all relationship matters until such time as I can sort myself out first.

No, this is not sustainable.  Would you move in with your son in order to have a break from these matters?  In order to give yourself time so you can sort out your feelings?


I need to talk to this first love of mine and have an honest discussion. I actually believe she will be very understanding of this as she has been in similar situations herself. She wants to meet up. Not sure how I will do this as it is a day trip…

I agree with you, that you need to have an honest discussion with your first love.  Do not rush into a new relationship, nor should she.  Take your time, learn the red flags, and proceed with  .

Share more when you can.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[livednlearned]

I have only been in three relationships before, and believe me, from what I have learnt about myself on this site and the experiences of others, it is not that unrealistic to think that all three of these are women with BPD traits. And yes, it does seem love-bomby.

Would you consider getting out of your current relationship and spending time alone for a while?

I have not been able to see any great change from using ‘the tools’ here.

What kind of tools are you using? There are lots here, I'm curious which ones. Some are for us alone.

I am just so worn out from this ten year plus daily abuse, that when this comes along, I am flattered and it seems like a way out of my misery.

Does the first love know you're in a relationship? Sorry if I missed that detail somewhere.

Do I drive the 200km and see the person I first met? Would that be bad or risky? It would be difficult to do discretely. She really wants to see me and I want to see her. I really hope I am not walking into a minefield here. Maybe I need some time by myself?

It sounds like a total minefield! But you might like minefields. That's what I would want to get to the bottom of. If it's a minefield and you know it, what is it about you that runs toward it?

Also, it seems like this doesn't solve the problem of your current partner being suicidal  

[2020]

You have all given me much to think about.

I have had some kind of serious messages from this girl. She wants to see me. I hope I don’t get myself in the  here.

“I feel like having a conversation with you about radical honesty.   Is it too early in the day to be having that conversation

[2020]

You have all given me much to think about.

I have had some kind of serious messages from this girl. She wants to see me. I hope I don’t get myself in the  here.

“I feel like having a conversation with you about radical honesty.   Is it too early in the day to be having that conversation

[2020]

SORRY FOR THE TRIPLE POSTING! Not sure why it wouldn’t upload the message. I can’t edit, sorry!


You have all given me much to think about.

I have had some kind of serious messages from this girl. She wants to see me. I hope I don’t get myself in the  here.

“I feel like having a conversation with you about radical honesty.   Is it too early in the day to be having that conversation?  I feel very JOYFUL about being in contact with you. Why is that?  Can you please call me to discuss or come and see me?”

So I rang her up and we spoke about a lot of past things. There was a pregnancy termination when she and I were young which has caused her grief. We spoke about that. She has had some difficult times during the years we have not had contact. She spoke about that today and needed to check whether I had complex drug issues. She’s been sober for 27 years. She spoke of her past relationships a bit and I of mine.

I have agreed to meet her tomorrow for a few hours during the day. She knows of the current woman in my life but I need to be explicitly clear to her about where it is at. I am a bit worried about this to be honest. I don’t know what this first girl is wanting from me. A friendship or relationship possibility? Even a friendship would cause a lot of  !

I still dont know what to do. I feel quite sad actually. It feels bad and wrong. It wont be easy but I am going to have to have a serious conversation. In a way I wish this unexpected event had not happened. But it has, and my life is so miserable that I am desperate for a tiny bit of happiness. If I don’t walk the minefield I might be depriving myself of a very different life. At the same time I feel terrible.

I will leave at 7am.

[Notwendy]

Regardless of what she wants- you are responsible for "what happens" - your own boundaries.

You feel terrible about the meeting up and yet, don't want to dismiss the opportunity. Consider some of the consequences in terms of your own self worth and dignity. If you cheat on your relationship- you would feel badly about yourself. Yes, there are other reasons to not cheat but your own self esteem and dignity are enough.

Boundaries are key here. Jumping into something quickly would be a red flag IMHO. If this is going to be something worthwhile, it can wait until you have ironed out your own situation.

Maybe she wants some resolution.  A pregnancy is not a trivial situation for either of you. You don't know what this was like for her. Maybe she needs you to hear about it. Maybe she wants more- and I think you are being honest with yourself in that- if she wants friendship- you don't have the emotional space to be that for her- then be honest with her. And if she wants more than that right now- as if the meeting today turns into something "more"- IMHO, that would be a red flag. Decades have passed between the two of you and neither of you know each other well enough now to decide on that right away.

Regardless of what she wants, if you wish for this to be just coffee and talking- you decide on this boundary. This is about you, not her, not your current partner. You can return from this meeting without feeling shame or that you have something to hide if all you did was that and this outcome is yours to decide.

[2020]

Thank you for your reply. I feel better after reading what you said Notwendy. I am not going up there to sleep with her, but to meet with her. I find I have to excuse myself all the time in my current situation, just to take my son shopping for example. I guess this feels wrong on another level.

This woman from my past has boundaries. We have spoken on the phone about this. She said to me that she has to be careful of people because she doesn’t want to be hurt. She suggested if we do meet up, I could stay at her place which is a very small apartment, whilst she house minds her aunt’s place. I suggested to make it a day trip first and that is what I intend to do.

When we first hooked up as kids really, she said to me within the first week, that she can’t just have sex with me like other people do when they start going out. There has been chilhood abuse. I have never pushed anything like that with her or anyone. I am a bit shy or scared myself at first with sexual matters.

I very much missed her when I quickly became involved in my second relationship. I have to confess, part of me just wants this to work out… kind of like a fairy tale. Not sure if that will happen.

The sun will be rising soon. I will be going to meet her for myself. I deserve to have a nice day. I am going to try to not feel shame. I am not doing something wrong, am I?

[SaltyDawg]

G'Day 2020,

I went back to your earlier posts in this threads, and I will try and read between the lines if you will to give you some additional clarity...

I am in a really odd situation. As my relationship with my partner has deteriorated around me to the point of barely existing, a week ago I received a message on a website I seldom look at from the first love of my life whom I have not spoken to for a very long time. We are talking the 1980s here! We were basically kids, well, teenagers and in our early 20’s together.

Our relationship ended one night over something trivial really, and a couple of months later I was love bombed by somebody whilst drunk. She moved in, we had kids. It was 16 years of hell. It ended one morning when she booted my 13 year old son at the time, and I, onto the street. Somehow we went from squatting in a garage to renting under a house.

I sat alone, totally miserable for six years approx, then an angel fell from the heavens and my life felt complete…. or so I thought. We were friends for a few years. It did have its moments. After my mother died we moved in together and well, it has been a difficult relationship. Probably as bad or worse than the previous one.

Currently she lives out of town nearby and I see her everyday. I spend most nights there, sleep there, but the intimacy dried up six months or so ago. It was sporadic prior to this. To be honest, the relationship has been a disaster. No matter how hard I have tried to hold it together, it is just abuse on a daily basis. I will spare you the details and try get to the point.

Out of the blue, I receive a message from this girl. It is a pretty innocent “hi, hope you are well” message. And it has since become something which I am having difficulty understanding. I am having all these very strong feelings towards her. Our text conversations go on for hours and it is like we have not had almost 40 years absence. The conversations are becoming intimate and romantic.

Thank you both for your considered and sensible replies. I think I am getting swept away a bit here. I have only been in three relationships before, and believe me, from what I have learnt about myself on this site and the experiences of others, it is not that unrealistic to think that all three of these are women with BPD traits. And yes, it does seem love-bomby.
[...]

I met this girl at an art college event in ‘86. She was seventeen; black messy hair over her eyes, red lipstick, blackened eyes, beautiful cheek bones. She was wearing an oversized patched coat her brother’s friend had stolen from a scarecrow in Germany. It was love at first sight. I had never even kissed a girl before.

A couple of weeks later she said that she needed to talk to me. “You know how people meet and then they have sex? Well I can’t do that.” I was saddened to hear this but was not going to rush into anything like that. We hung out together all the time.

About a year later I was at her parents place one weekend when she said she didn’t want me to go home. They lived semi-rural at the end of the railway track. We hatched a plan to meet around midnight at the old milking shed. Well, that night was the first time I was with a woman. I was a young artist and she was my muse.

Unfortunately we got ourselves in a spot of bother. There was a pregnancy to deal with and her mother was very upset with me. This resulted in the girl leaving art school and cutting me out of her life. I sent her letters, handwritten with serifs…. this is pre-internet, written with a quill and bottled ink. (no I am not kidding). But she never replied.

About ten months later she called on the phone. We met up and gradually we grew together again. We went on long rail journeys to other cities. Stayed with her aunt and uncle. She decided to stay with them, which left me with a two day rail journey every month to go and spend time with her. Eventually she moved back but one night told me she had gone out on a date with another guy whilst away.

That night I ran from her. I moved in with a friend. I got messages through people that she wanted to contact me but I had been love bombed a week earlier by another woman.

I ended up with this other woman and had kids with her, and the whole time, I am ashamed to admit, I was never really in love with her. I just didn’t want to break her heart. It was a horrible abusive relationship, either bipolar or bpd or both. I got thrown out in 2004 and sat for six years alone on my doorstep drinking coffee and smoking…. and that is when number 3 came into my life. She even looked similar to the first love I had all those years ago…

And now she has reappeared, and my brain is very confused. I was not expecting this. I had thought I would be a caretaker for the rest of my life with number 3. And it has in the last year or so become so dreadful that I cannot live with her. I spend each day with her most of the time, but I am grateful I have a room at my son’s house.

I don’t want to break anyones heart. I have never been anything but loyal to people I have been involved with. Never been unfaithful. I just don’t know how to handle this. Do I drive the 200km and see the person I first met? Would that be bad or risky? It would be difficult to do discretely. She really wants to see me and I want to see her. I really hope I am not walking into a minefield here. Maybe I need some time by myself?

From what I have read, I will list the order of relationships from my understanding, I want to make sure we are on the same page... regarding your three intimate relationships...

#1 - The girl you are texting.  You got her pregnant (which was aborted), her parents, specifically her mother, was a major reason and influence on why you guys broke you up (reading between the lines) initially so many years ago.  Ten months later you found yourself in a long distant relationship with her again, and then you broke up with her after she went out with someone else.
 How old was she when this happened?

#2 - about the same time, when #1 announced that she went out with someone else, and while you were "drunk", you were seduced by the next one, had children with her, and 16 years later were kicked out with your 13 yo son at that time, and you were 6 years on your alone on your 'Jack Jones'.  No mention if you married this one, even though you had children together.  I am curious as to why she kicked you and your son out together?

#3 - The current one, who lives on the other side of town, who looked a lot like #1 (with whom you still likely had a deep rooted emotional attachment with since you mentioned this) in which you are technically not living together, even though you do visit her on a daily basis.  Since you have not mentioned any children, I must assume that you do not have any with her.  You each have your own place, which indicates not much of a financial commitment to each other.  Also, you indicated a high probability that she has cheated on you, repeatedly.  You did refer to this one as your 'spouse', so I must assume that you guys are 'married'.  This one has suicidal ideation, and is keeping you there mainly out of FOG.

#1 - Reconnecting with your first love, chatting and now a planned visit, tomorrow.

Do I have this right?  Is there anything I have wrong?

You have all given me much to think about.

I have had some kind of serious messages from this girl. She wants to see me. I hope I don’t get myself in the  here.

“I feel like having a conversation with you about radical honesty.   Is it too early in the day to be having that conversation?  I feel very JOYFUL about being in contact with you. Why is that?  Can you please call me to discuss or come and see me?”

So I rang her up and we spoke about a lot of past things. There was a pregnancy termination when she and I were young which has caused her grief. We spoke about that. She has had some difficult times during the years we have not had contact. She spoke about that today and needed to check whether I had complex drug issues. She’s been sober for 27 years. She spoke of her past relationships a bit and I of mine.

I have agreed to meet her tomorrow for a few hours during the day. She knows of the current woman in my life but I need to be explicitly clear to her about where it is at. I am a bit worried about this to be honest. I don’t know what this first girl is wanting from me. A friendship or relationship possibility? Even a friendship would cause a lot of  !

I still dont know what to do. I feel quite sad actually. It feels bad and wrong. It wont be easy but I am going to have to have a serious conversation. In a way I wish this unexpected event had not happened. But it has, and my life is so miserable that I am desperate for a tiny bit of happiness. If I don’t walk the minefield I might be depriving myself of a very different life. At the same time I feel terrible.

I will leave at 7am.

I am going to make several conflicting observations with questions designed to make you think...

...You left #1 and 'monkey branched' to #2 ... ironically many years later you are considering monkey branching from #3 back to #1.  What do you think of this?

Your current relationship with #3 is on the rocks, where you don't live in the same house, even though you are seeing each other almost on a daily basis.  Do you see this relationship going anywhere?  If so, is it in a positive direction?  Or, do you think it has reached its 'expiration date' especially in light of your spouse's apparent infidelities?

Your current relationship with #3 has seen infidelity, and she has pretty much shut down most if not all of your emotional needs; however, keeps you around with threats of suicide and other manipulation tactics.  Is this healthy for you?

You are married to #3, and traditional vows are typically have "in SICKNESS and in health..."  She has a mental health sickness.  You do live in a country with good public health, so her care should be less of a concern.  However, you have a moral obligation to take care of her, yet she has left you at 3AM dressed up (a deliberate act) to see another man.  Do you think she is pushing you away?

You see an opportunity for a better life than the one you are currently 'stuck' in.  In essence #1 is the rescuer, #3 is the persecutor, and yourself as the victim in the drama triangle.  Likewise, #1 will likely see herself as the victim and you the rescuer with #3 still being the persecutor.  Do you understand these dynamics?

She is very concerned about 'drugs'.  Do you use?  If so, can you quit?  Also, alcohol is a drug, and even that should not be consumed - if you are a casual drinker would you consider quitting?

I will not repeat a lot of the stuff Not Wendy said; however, I will highlight what else I would have shared with you...

Regardless of what she wants- you are responsible for "what happens" - your own boundaries.

You feel terrible about the meeting up and yet, don't want to dismiss the opportunity. Consider some of the consequences in terms of your own self worth and dignity. If you cheat on your relationship- you would feel badly about yourself. Yes, there are other reasons to not cheat but your own self esteem and dignity are enough.

Boundaries are key here. Jumping into something quickly would be a red flag IMHO. If this is going to be something worthwhile, it can wait until you have ironed out your own situation.

Maybe she wants some resolution.  A pregnancy is not a trivial situation for either of you. You don't know what this was like for her. Maybe she needs you to hear about it. Maybe she wants more- and I think you are being honest with yourself in that- if she wants friendship- you don't have the emotional space to be that for her- then be honest with her. And if she wants more than that right now- as if the meeting today turns into something "more"- IMHO, that would be a red flag. Decades have passed between the two of you and neither of you know each other well enough now to decide on that right away.

Regardless of what she wants, if you wish for this to be just coffee and talking- you decide on this boundary. This is about you, not her, not your current partner. You can return from this meeting without feeling shame or that you have something to hide if all you did was that and this outcome is yours to decide.

I agree with NW on everything she has said.  I would go, as a reconnaissance mission, to figure out specifically what you are dealing with.

Don't sell yourself short and reject a potentially much healthier relationship where #1 has worked on her drug issues (and presumably others as well).  However, do keep your eyes out for flags to make sure you are not replacing one bad situation with another.  If you do feel 'chemistry' and you likely will, as there were unresolved issues when you parted ways decades ago, you will need to open up to your spouse with a much more level playing field on infidelity.

I am not normally a fan of ultimatums; however, there is a time and place for them.  Here might be one of them when you return from your trip and you are considering having a deeper relationship with your old flame #1.  Have a conversation with number #3 in a public space, like a restaurant.  Accurately recount the state of your marriage with the no sex, her seeing a guy friend at 3AM (ask if you can accompany her so you can show support for his [terminal] cancer -- see what her response might be, and have dinner with her and the guy friend - if he is just a friend she won't mind; however, if there is something more, she will reject this - use the rejection as a springboard into a conversation about #1 reaching out to you and how you are conflicted - be honest here; however, tactfully present it to her as you're triangulating).

When you have the conversation with #3 about #1 reaching out to you, cite #3's behaviors and that you find them unacceptable, and these must change especially as the two of you are no longer living under the same roof. 

#3 will do one of two things, and this might surprise you.  #3 could use this as an excuse to out herself on her own affair partner, and give you permission to have a relationship with #1 effectively ending your marriage.  Or, #3 could become enraged, and try to hold you to a double standard and keep you.  Have a plan that she stop seeing her affair partner and that both of you go to couple's therapy to rebuild the relationship.  If she refuses, and wants to maintain the double standard, then you are in a double bind and need to sort out feelings on what is best for you and your son.

Do what is best for you.

Do not be impulsive, take your time.  See if #1 also wants to take her time too.  See if #3 is willing to change once she has knowledge of the new dynamic.

Do observe and look for flags.

Do resolve unresolved issues from your past with #1, including her date which triggered you to monkey branch to #2.

Do take time to reflect and clear your head of #1 & #3 (and #2 if she is still an issue too) and figure out what is best for you.  Sleep on it for more than a week, as your decision will have life-long implications.

Do take time to do self-care, whatever that might look like for you.

Take care.

SD

[Notwendy]

I think the issue here is that- you are in an unhappy relationship and this has left you with an emotional void and your communication with GF #1 is filling some of that void. This actually acts as an escape- like an addiction- rather than face the actual problem, you can escape your feelings of discomfort with GF #3 by interacting with GF#1. All addictions serve the purpose of an emotional escape- so drinking, love addiction, drugs, all provide a temporary escape. This could be why you feel a euphoric high when interacting with her. Rather than see this as cheating/not cheating- ask- is this good for you or not- in the long run. In the long run, your relationship is the issue that needs to be addressed for yourself. This is temporary relief because it doesn't address the relationship with GF#3.

Fantasy doesn't necessarily correllate with reality. Teen romances don't deal with the types of responsibilities that adult relationships do so it's hard to correllate them. If something is to come out of this connection, I think there needs to be time spent together as adults to figure this out. (IMHO). Also it's not possible to be fully emotionally available to a relaionship while still being in another one. If you did want to give this the best possible chance it's better to end the one you are in first. (IMHO)

Our own self worth is determined by our boundaries as boundaries are based on our own values. So if your boundary is not to sleep with this woman, then don't do it for your own sake- you will let yourself down if you do and feel bad about yourself.

I don't think being curious and meeting up is necessarily wrong. It's preferable if you didn't feel you needed to hide it but with BPD that gets a bit fuzzy because if even going to the store could provoke a rage, it's understandable you don't want to share this. I think the bottom line is you being true to your values and also honest with yourself and her. I think if you keep this to coffee in a public place- and talking, you can walk away with your integrity intact.

IMHO, I think you are in a very emotionally vulnerable position right now and it would be better to consider a relationship from a position of emotional stregnth. Fort hat to be- requires you take care of the issues you currently have. This is more about you than her.

[2020]

I am very grateful for both of your detailed replies. Thank you for taking time typing out your considered responses. I’ll try to go through this all but might run out of time….


#1. Yes, I did get her pregnant. It pretty much happened the first time I had sex. #1 told me we could handle it and wanted to have a child. We were really young, both living at home, going to art school. We told friends too, so a lot of people knew we were having a kid. But her mother thought otherwise. once she had told her, she dropped out from art school and would not talk to me.

About ten months later, after I wrote letters to her every week, she rang me and we met up in town. We spent a lot of time in each others company in the coming months. We went to visit some of her relatives in a city about 1500km away. She liked it there and decided to stay. I traveled back and forth frequently. Eventually she moved back. Four of us moved into a share house at that point and she we t back to art school. One night she told me she had gone on a date with someone else whilst away and she felt she wanted to tell me. I was very hurt and ran away. Stayed with a male friend of mine for a few weeks. He told me I could move in. That is where #2 came along.

#2 was met one night when I was very drunk with a friend I was in a band with. She bought me drinks and ended up staying the night. There was no sexual interaction that night. A few days later she rang me, and came over after work. She came bearing gifts of cigarettes and alcohol. It was very fast but she pretty much moved in there and then. Showered me with gifts; and expensive camera, called me Mr. Rockstar, that sort of thing, even though we were a cheap and crappy punk band with no musical ability. I wont go into too much more detail, but in recent years I have identified BPD traits in her.

I had three children with her, the second was still born. Around 2004 she threw my eldest son and I out. She was having an affair with someone she met at university and we were on the streets. It never worked out for her. She ended up with more drug problems than prior and leaving the man.

I don’t think I monkey branched necessarily. Maybe I did? She just came on the scene one night soon after the break up with #1. To be honest, I did not find her attractive. I knew after three weeks with her that is was not what I wanted. Pretty sad really.

#3 Came along around 2010 I guess. Met her at a small party upstairs. She looked very beautiful, reminded me of #1. I only spoke with her that one night then she disappeared for a year. I though of her on my doorstep every day. One night out of the blue rocked up on my doorstep with her son. We went to town and drank at a bar. She told me I was a really nice guy. This did wonders for my battered self esteem.

We ended up having a close friendship for maybe two years but there were these incidences where out of the blue she would hate me. Eventually we slept with each other. She said it must never happen again, but it did, from time to time.

After my mother died, I rand #3 up. She had not been talking to me for many months. I was pretty depressed. She asked me to visit her. She had been living in her car but was now at her sisters house. So to cut a long story short, which I am certain could be read on this website elsewhere, I told her I loved her. She moved in with me soon after, with her son.

About a month later she was accusing me of being in a relationship still with #2. The accusations and fighting became more frequent. She cut me off from my family of origin and friends. Really dislikes my two boys. Took until 2018 until a counsellor pointed me to DBT articles and the penny dropped.


I have never been married to any of these women, or anyone for that matter. Only had these three relationships. Only had sexual intimacy with these three women. I am not financially tied to #3. We jointly own a few things together, including a caravan worth $4000. We lost everything in a flood in 2022.

As far as drugs go, no I don’t use drugs. I stopped my daily weed problem over ten years ago. Haven’t touched it since. I stopped cigarettes soon after. Alcohol I don’t care much for. I sometimes drink with #3 . She drinks daily and often to excess.  eing her drinking buddy is problematic. I don’t mind a glass of French red, but I don’t go buying alcohol just for myself and wouldn’t miss it.

What do I think of the monkey branching? Well I thought it was something they did, not us! Seeing you have mentioned it, yes, it does look like I am doing this from #3 to #1. That has to be a   if not   , correct? I really don’t want to act poorly here. These are real people and they need to be treated with respect. And I need to figure out respecting myself a little more.


I would write more if I had more time. I have to leave very soon and will come back with a report and answer the remaining questions which have been raised. I am realy grateful for all who have contributed and helped me figure this out. I read here often but seldom post. Thank you for taking time out of your day and giving me such excellent guidance.

I’ll be back in 24 hours. I’ll be watching out for those flags and monkey branches!  

[SaltyDawg]

2020,

Comments and observations on your more recent post...

#1. Yes, I did get her pregnant. It pretty much happened the first time I had sex. #1 told me we could handle it and wanted to have a child. We were really young, both living at home, going to art school. We told friends too, so a lot of people knew we were having a kid. But her mother thought otherwise. once she had told her, she dropped out from art school and would not talk to me.

For young people who are still living with their parents, this is really powerful stuff, not only for you, but her too, especially with the pregnancy - there is likely a lot of residual emotion even after several decades of separation that need to be resolved.


#2 was met one night when I was very drunk with a friend I was in a band with. She bought me drinks and ended up staying the night. There was no sexual interaction that night. A few days later she rang me, and came over after work. She came bearing gifts of cigarettes and alcohol. It was very fast but she pretty much moved in there and then. Showered me with gifts; and expensive camera, called me Mr. Rockstar, that sort of thing, even though we were a cheap and crappy punk band with no musical ability. I wont go into too much more detail, but in recent years I have identified BPD traits in her.

That is typical 'love bombing'.


I had three children with her, the second was still born. Around 2004 she threw my eldest son and I out. She was having an affair with someone she met at university and we were on the streets. It never worked out for her. She ended up with more drug problems than prior and leaving the man.

She just came on the scene one night soon after the break up with #1. To be honest, I did not find her attractive. I knew after three weeks with her that is was not what I wanted. Pretty sad really.

She was not what you wanted, yet you stayed... WHY?  Probably attachment issues.  Even though I test as 'securely attached' my own individual therapist sees a tendency of anxious avoidant in me - that is what makes me codependent.  This is what makes me stay in a relationship that I really have no business being in.  I am looking at you from the perspective you gave me, and I share many of the same character traits as you do...  I will expand near the end of this post on this aspect more...


#3 ... So to cut a long story short, which I am certain could be read on this website elsewhere, I told her I loved her. She moved in with me soon after, with her son.

About a month later she was accusing me of being in a relationship still with #2. The accusations and fighting became more frequent. She cut me off from my family of origin and friends. Really dislikes my two boys. Took until 2018 until a counsellor pointed me to DBT articles and the penny dropped.

Same here, I have been accused of having affairs with my children's playdate mothers, a licensed therapist, and an ordained minister - some really weird sh!t.  My wife acted crazy first in front of my female acquaintances (the playdate mothers) and then my guy friends too a few years later, where I would no longer interact with them, nor invite them, and they fell by the wayside, effectively isolating me from them.  Like you, it took a therapist to blurt out only 40 minutes into my first session with him "Has your wife been evaluated for bipolar or BPD?" - That was June of 2022, and it was a definite eye opening experience that I really did not want to know about or accept.


I have never been married to any of these women, or anyone for that matter. Only had these three relationships. Only had sexual intimacy with these three women. I am not financially tied to #3. We jointly own a few things together, including a caravan worth $4000. We lost everything in a flood in 2022.

$4k AU is a very inexpensive caravan, I live next to a caravan dealer, and they only sell the smallest caravans that can be towed by a motorcycle at that price, used.  I see almost no obligations to #3, other perhaps emotional support of her son - what is your involvement with him?  I know you mentioned she doesn't like yours, and I can only assume that yours are now grown and out of the home, and you live with one of them.


As far as drugs go, no I don’t use drugs. I stopped my daily weed problem over ten years ago. Haven’t touched it since. I stopped cigarettes soon after. Alcohol I don’t care much for. I sometimes drink with #3 . She drinks daily and often to excess.  eing her drinking buddy is problematic. I don’t mind a glass of French red, but I don’t go buying alcohol just for myself and wouldn’t miss it.

From what you have described, I do not see an issue here.  Let #1, lead by her example on what she finds acceptable with substance use (wine, beer, etc.). 

To summarize, all three of the women you have had sex with have had some variation of affairs (or it felt that way).  All three have had, or presently have issues with substance abuse.  You yourself had an issue over a decade ago, that you have managed to stop, so you might have this in common with #1.  I sense you are a lot like me, and seeing this friend feels like an affair and this is making you feel bad, being shameful, yet all three have seen others while you were seeing them.  Out of the three women, #1 is the least bad, even though she wounded you emotionally when she shared with you that she saw someone else.  How old were you and #1 at the time of your breakup with #1?

What do I think of the monkey branching? Well I thought it was something they did, not us!

While borderlines do monkey branching more readily, it is not an exclusive Cluster-B trait.  It stems from an attachment style from our own childhood wounds on how we were brought up, I myself found myself feeling that way after my uBPD/uNPD/u+exgf dumped me to chase after another man, as she still had my stuff, but I was shut out.  A few months later, I rang up the woman who would become my wife as she had given me her contact information while I was still dating the exgf. 


Seeing you have mentioned it, yes, it does look like I am doing this from #3 to #1. That has to be a   if not   , correct? I really don’t want to act poorly here. These are real people and they need to be treated with respect. And I need to figure out respecting myself a little more.

It is definitely a and can even be a  .  Yes, they need to be treated with respect, just as you deserve to be treated with respect as well, mate.  One of the most damaging traits of being codependent that I see in myself, and you too, is a compliance pattern of "Are extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long." - for a list of patterns see https://coda.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/2011-Patterns-of-Recovery-2015.pdf - look for ones that you do, see if any of these patterns resonate with you.  An excellent article on codependent (be sure to follow the links, there is one on how to fall out of love with someone at https://www.happierhuman.com/codependent-traits/.

All borderlines are also codependent; however, the reverse may not be true.  In my case, and I suspect in your case as well only #2 and #3 are borderline; however, #1 is likely a codependent like yourself.

If both of you are codependent, your relationship will either be better than everyone else's or worse than everyone else's.  If both of you are in Therapy (highly recommended) it can be a really wonderful thing.  For more free resources in Australia, you can visit https://www.codependentsanonymous.org.au/ - the US site has excellent free literature at https://coda.org/meeting-materials/


This will give you a tremendous amount to think about, if you want more resources, let me know.

I am hoping your meeting went well, please fill us in when you get a chance.

Take care, with self-care.  Also, ponder, assess, reflect, meditate on what is happening.  Definitely do not rush things. 

Until next time, keep coming back.

SD

[2020]

Thank you for taking the time again to write a lengthy reply. I am sorry for any similarities in my relationship and yours! I will check out the links. Here is an update.

I drove up to see #1. She is pet-sitting in a strangers house for 3 weeks. It was very luxurious. She opened the door and was not the teenager I met in ‘86. Her black ‘goth’ hair was now silvery and well, so is mine! We have become older. She looks very beautiful. We hugged each other and she said how great it was to see me. We talked all afternoon and both commented how strange the experience was. We literally picked up from 1988 as if there was no 35 year absence inbetween.

She suggested we go out and get dinner. We drove to an Indian restaurant and ate dinner under the moonlight in a park we used to frequent. It was very romantic. Then we returned to the house and she offered to make up a bed on the sofa for me if I’d like. We lay there talking until 4am and fell asleep in each others arms.

The discussion was a mix of happy memories, lots of laughter and some tears. We both filled in the gaps between when we were kids and now. There was talk about the pregnancy and what happened. We had never communicated about that before, even when we got back together years ago. A lot of hurt was put to rest.

She spoke of her addiction issues. She had problems with drugs but when she became pregnant with her daughter who is now 27, she left all that behind. The father of her daughter killed himself a few years back; jumped off a cliff. She was not in relationship with him at the time. She has had a series of one or two year bad abusive relationships, but nothing for some time. She told me stories of repeated sexual abuse at the age of 14 and how that has affected her as an adult. She mentioned she did online meetings in the past for people with love or sex addictions.

I told her of #3 and we spoke quite a lot about this. She has been in similar relationships and judging by her take on things, she sounded very well read and had done a ton of work on personal boundaries etc.

The atmosphere was quite ‘charged’ the first night. I did try to kiss her but she said she would need to feel safer with me first. The cuddling was quite intense. It felt so good to be in the arms of a gentle woman. She commented on how I had grown into a beautiful caring man and how my diverse interests in the arts and other things was very attractive to her.

The second day was really nice. We drank tea and chatted all day. There were some difficult topics. She did comment how I am intertwined with a person who is manipulating and has complex issues and this is perhaps something I should think about changing, for my own good, and that she (#1) was not telling me what to do. It made me feel sad. Maybe because it is true.

We cooked dinner together, then she invited me to sleep upstairs with her in bed. We hugged each other under the sheets. She told me we can’t have sex; she needs to have that boundary to protect herself. I agreed it was a good idea. During the next hour or so however, it did become intimate. The boundaries were blurred and there followed hours of very slow sexual intimacy. You know what? It felt incredible. It felt real. Very different to bpd sex. I realised how deprived I had become of human contact. At least I can report that there is great (but different) sex out there outside of bpd…. unless this is bpd sex in a different form!?

The next morning, New Years Eve, we continued talking. We both admitted that we were heading into something deep here. It is uncharted waters for both of us. We would really like see each other again. It just felt so comfortable. There were tears on parting. I donkt think either of us wanted this to end. The unseen forces at play are very extreme.

Driving back today I checked my messages on my ipad. Lots of concerned messages from #3. Some abusive ones too. And some photos of hand writen notes/diary entries. It’s incredibly sad.

It is 5am now. I am in bed feeling like crap to be honest. It was NOT the innocent coffee meet up in a public place where I walk away with integrity intact. It was a full on slow-motion seductive dance and extremely sexually charged. Maybe this is what sex addict do? I don’t know. I have made my life infinitely more complex than it ever was. Maybe I should never have gone up this path?

I have had to reply to #3 so she knows I am back in town. I told her a few days ago that I would be visiting my sister, not having sex with a childhood sweetheart. That makes me a liar and unfaithful. And I am VERY surprised at how readily I threw my own lines-in-the-sand out of the window regarding ‘affairs’, which is what I have now done! I never thought I’d reconnect with this woman. I just never saw this coming.

I am now feeling torn between two paths. Stay in the misery with #3? I still ‘think’ I love her. I do care very much about her. She is a long term relationship. I have know her for a big part of my life. I feel really terrible about what I have done. I am involved with a very sick person with #3. I have been her friend, lover, partner, caretaker for years. It would be so hard, painful, and difficult to walk away.

The interlude with #1 was so nice. In an ideal world, in a parallel dimension the two of us would have had kids together, a life together, without spending the next 35 years plugging a huge hole in our hearts with  .

Here I am in the middle not knowing what to do. Guys, I really ed up! A big part of me wants to get in the car and drive west into the desert and become a missing person. But I can’t do that. I have ‘responsibilities’. Maybe I just want to run away from my problems, rather than face them, or stand up for myself?

After being on this public forum for 5 years, I am coming to the realisation that the focus has to be on ourselves. We can’t fix these people. We need to fix ourselves. Because we are as much a part of the problem as they are. We might have even been the entire problem all along.

[Notwendy]

What is the plan with GF #1? Does she want to pursue a relationship?

Perhaps separate these two relationships.

You are unhappy wih GF#3, it is a disordered relationship and not likely to change. You could choose to stay for more of the same, or leave and be single.

If you wish to pursue a relationship with GF #1- then to give that relationship the best chance, you would need to not be in a relationship with GF#3 at the same time. You would have to end that relationship.

If you were single, then a relationship with GF #1would be two consenting adults doing what they choose to do- and you can make that choice without feeling badly about it if you were single.

The conflict for you is that- you are still in a relationship with GF #3. We don't post "run" messages here- that is up to you. A hypothetical "leave" would leave you single and able to pursue a relationship with someone else without feeling badly about it. 

Let's say relationship with GF #1 does not work out. Then, you'd be single. If it does work out, then you would be in a relationship with GF #1. You don't know the outcome of this possibility but in the worst case, scenario, you'd be single.

If you stay with GF #3- then you either cut off the relationship with GF#1 or you juggle both and deal with that kind of drama. And- you know what staying in a relationship with GF #3 is like.

I would also advise you to not disclose this to GF #3. Although I think there's great value in honesty- with someone with BPD, I don't see any good coming out of this. Even if she has done this herself- her emotional thinking won't logically apply this to you. To her, this will be a constant source of reasons to blame you for her unhappy feelings and to be emotionally/vebally abusive. Yes, you are responsible for your actions but- trying to discuss this with a disodered person is had pittfalls.

Rather than discuss with her- you need to get squared away with yourself so that you can make some decisions. It may help to get counseling. You feel badly about seeing this woman GF#1 on the downlow while being in a relationship with GF #3. Let that be your guide to deciding what to do.

[ForeverDad]

Notwendy posted well.  Listen and take heed.

I would also advise you to not disclose this to GF #3. Although I think there's great value in honesty- with someone with BPD, I don't see any good coming out of this. Even if she has done this herself- her emotional thinking won't logically apply this to you.

Why?  If you were trying to repair the relationship then you would share information.  However, she GF#3 has pushed you away, almost like how a cook sets a cooked food on the stove's back burner so it is on a low simmer and left for later or not.  With such a hurtful and unsatisfying relationship, we understand why you can decide to end it.  In that case then you would give priority to your own privacy and confidentiality.

Until you actually do call it quits, just say you need time for yourself.  You have a right to privacy.  Or do what you said you'd do at some point while you're away... so you're sharing but just not sharing everything.

Also, be mindful of my prior post about rebounding too soon into another relationship.  Give yourself time to heal and the hurts to fade.

[2020]

Thanks Notwendy for the wise words. When I visited the first girlfiend and was completely honest about my situation, what I did notice was the lack of necessity to creep around on eggshells. I did not have to fear a violent reaction at all. And she told me before I arrived that she had some things to tell me about herself, how she behaved badly and hurt me, and how what she wanted to say might upset me. I said that she need not fear telling me anything. There is so far a truthful ‘relationship’ between us.

Another thing was, before I left, she said there had been two men interested in her. One quite young and an older one who she had imagined something sexual might occur in future. She asked me how I felt about that. I said if things between her and I continued like they were, then I would be upset if that happened. She said she wouldn’t do that, but really, how can I even expect loyalty if I am still intertwined with girlfriend #3?

Your advise not to tell is the best choice. The first girlfriend said she can see #3 is unwell, and can understand why I would want to help her, but she said she doesn’t want crazy in her life and never ever wants to ever meet the psychopath. She insisted I delete all messages between her (#1) and myself, which I did in front of her.

This morning I am receiving messages of “hope you slept well” etc, from the current girlfriend. I still don’t know what will become of all of this. I have choices to make, but am I capable of making them, and which one will I make? The default ME would just keep running around with girlfriend #3. Maybe I just need to be by myself for a while? I said to girlfriend #1that I really needed to get my  in order and learn to stand up for myself in 2024. She jokingly asked how long this would take? Two weeks? One week? A month? I think the damage I have sustained beating my head against a wall may take a year or more to recover from.

[Augustine]

“Neither should a ship rely on a single anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope” Epictetus

I’m trying to gauge the matter from #1’s mindset.

After forty years, I cannot fathom a healthy motivation behind contacting anyone after that length of time, particularly if the initial connection was ephemeral. If after forty years I was someone else’s path of least resistance, I would be extremely cautious.

I did have someone whom I dated briefly in my late teens contact me after forty years. I just found it odd, as I had almost as much of a connection to this person as any random individual off the street after such a length of time.

I’ll be brutally frank here,  if I did look anyone up after that length of time: I would back off 100% if I knew they were already in a relationship, and the health of that relationship would be irrelevant; I wouldn’t be telling them about the other people who are also interested in me; I wouldn’t be sending long texts to anyone already in a relationship.

I think you’re in a bad spot right now, but I can assure you that the appearance of this new person in your life isn’t going to generate a positive outcome.

[2020]

Thank you Augustine. I have read your personal story and really appreciate your honesty and prose. I admire your application of boundaries too and the fact you have managed to apply ‘no contact’ so well. There are vampyres out there and we need to be cautious. I think I need to withdraw from the World for a while. I have no friends, close or otherwise so perhaps it won’t be too isolating? I can see some red flags here. I feel bad saying this, but maybe this is just some wild sexual fling? Not sure if I would want that. Fairy tales are not real, are they?

[Notwendy]

I think Augustine makes a good point about boundaries and the time between knowing her. I think social media has made it more possible to look people up and Facebook groups such as school alumni groups put people in contact with each other. But when decades have gone by- it is as if meeting someone new in ways.

She spoke of her addiction issues. She had problems with drugs but when she became pregnant with her daughter who is now 27, she left all that behind. The father of her daughter killed himself a few years back; jumped off a cliff. She was not in relationship with him at the time. She has had a series of one or two year bad abusive relationships, but nothing for some time. She told me stories of repeated sexual abuse at the age of 14 and how that has affected her as an adult. She mentioned she did online meetings in the past for people with love or sex addictions.


This information is of note- and not to be critical of her. This points to  trauma. While BPD is a possibility, it isn't necessarily so but trauma can lead to issues with boundaries and relationship difficulties. It isn't GF#1 fault that she experienced abuse at a young age- but the effects of this can take some personal work. She seems aware of this and has done some personal work- but that's where she is at the moment. It doesn't address where you are emotionally.

There's no way to know all that is going on with her but this information can be helpful to you. Who we are attracted to, and who is attracted to us is complicated- but we tend to ",match" on an emotional level- we bring our own issues into relationships.

As Augustine mentioned- if someone contacted him out of the blue- he'd have a different reaction to it. There isn't an emotional match here but for you, there was but what is the basis of that match? You have felt a "match" with disordered people, and so has GF#1.

Perhaps this experience is helpful information for you to do some self work, some counseling- on your part of the relationship dynamics.

I said to girlfriend #1that I really needed to get my ______ in order and learn to stand up for myself in 2024. She jokingly asked how long this would take? Two weeks? One week? A month? I think the damage I have sustained beating my head against a wall may take a year or more to recover from.

This is long term work- with a counselor and possibly 12 step groups if that appeals to you. It's not forever but it isn't done over weeks to months. What you said is a truth about yourself. You are in a relationship at the moment and need to decide about that.This isn't a rejection of her- it's about you and where you are at emotionally.

[2020]

I am in a situation which I don’t like. I have never behaved like this before, and I never imagined this would happen. I have a connection with two women at the same time now. You cannot juggle that type of thing. It is not fair.

Last night I found myself in text message conversations with both of them simultaneously. It is an impossible situation. I actually feel like crap. The woman I have been with now for a long time is very upset:

“I can not sleep and I am a nervous wreck…… you will not ring me or visit me to tell me what is honestly happening. After ten years you choose to break up with me after three days of ignoring me via an obscure text. This is cruel. This is not love. This is torture. You are playing me because you can not be honest and give me a definitive “ I am dumping you”.

I have not said I am breaking up with her. I said I was very unhappy and needed some time to work on myself. She wanted me to see her today:

“How about you visit tomorrow night and we be intimate….. I really miss us making love”

She is suffering and so am I. Because things became so awful between us, I ran towards an escape hatch and I feel terrible.


And then there is girlfriend #1:

“I have just been letting my other love interests know that I am not available at this time.  I hope that goes down ok. Maybe they won't care much..”

“ Its not everyone in the world fancying me, there are only two people I felt I needed to inform, gosh. I am feeling a lot more deeply about you. And its messy involving multiple people. I want to make things as simple and clean as I can, to give us the best chance.“

I asked her if it was wise ending connections with other people for me. We had only just reconnected. Then I said maybe I just said the wrong thing?

“Thinking maybe you feel bad about me letting my friends know I'm not going to continue flirting cos you have too much invested elsewhere yourself ? Is that true at all? And maybe you don't know whether you want to pursue things with me, despite strong feelings, which would be fair enough given such early days. Maybe I acted too soon.  But its ok. It doesn't mean I expect anything of you. I actually told you about it (ending connection with other interests) thinking it might be relaxing for you. But now seeing it might be the opposite”

I just don’t know what to do about any of this. I don’t even know how to speak to these two women. They deserve respect from me! I wish I could simply run away.

And this is my problem: Because I have never stood up for me in my entire life, I am now in this impossible situation. I don’t want to upset anyone, and now everone will be upset because of me. I will end up alone and miserable. I feel connected to both of these women. It is a horrible scenario. Everyone will hate me soon, if they don’t already! I am about to serve out the remaining years of my life alone, caring for my autistic son.

[2020]

I am thinking…

There is a definite strong connection with girlfriend #1, but neither of us can figure out what it is. No doubt we had a really nice intimate weekend. We were alone in a clean house which belonged to none of us, comfy sofa, cute pug dog, talking and cuddling into the night. I wish that could have gone on forever. And the sexual intimacy which went on during the second evening felt very different to what I have grow accustomed to. It wasn’t bpd sex. It was on a completely different level. Maybe this is sex addict sex? I have never come across this before. It was like a climax from a single sex act frozen in ice and allowed to thaw over two days. And I am still feeling its echoes now. Was I just love bombed?

And the other aspect in regard to girlfriend #1 is this upfront directness. There is none of the outlandish accusations and gaslighting. For the first time in ages, I can relax and be myself. If I went down a path with her, I would find it strange to adjust to not having to creep around on eggshells and actually be myself.

I need to be honest with myself first. I need to think very carefully about what I want in my life. Imagine if I directed even half of the effort and care into this previous girlfriend? And maybe she is picking up on this already. I did take her chocolates and flowers which she said she never receives.

“You are a very compelling man. I love the way you communicate. You're very playful, and smart. Its sexy.”

Personally I can’t see it. I actually feel like a piece of crap a lot of the time. sounds like a love bomb, doesn’t it? Or is she just being honest?

On our recent connection:

“Maybe part of it for me is actually the tension between you being so familiar, but also brand new. It was intense from the first moment. That recognition. I didn't expect to recognise you that much. Do you think we also recognised the starving in each other? Might that have created a magnetism?“

Here is somebody who analyses things and expresses themselves. There is no bpd raging or distortions….yet!  It feels nice to communicate with someone on this level.

But I do need to figure out a way through all of this. I need to think about me. I wonder if my connection with the current partner is me fulfilling a need by being this caretaker? Maybe there is a good dose of FOG keeping me there too, plus not wanting to hurt anybody.

The problem is girlfriend #1 clearly would like to pursue something with me, or at least stay connected to me.  #3 is feeling very worried and abandoned right now. I feel very bad about this. I will have to see her today and try to figure out what to say to her. I will not be disclosing what has happened recently with #1. I just don’t know what to say. She can tell my behaviour is out of character and senses the end might be nigh. She is now trying to desperately repair things between us.

And there is this third option for me. I tell both these women that I have thought about this and really need to be single right now to get myself well again and be available fully as a partner in a relationship. I suppose that way I will be by myself and so will they. We all lose but perhaps it is the best option because the torture ends. I don’t want to juggle two women at once. It is not on in my books, and that is what I am doing right now.

I have four options: I juggle this current conundrum until it all falls down. I end things with #3 and get involved with #1. I end it with #1 and continue with #3. Or I just decide to be single.

Whatever the answer, this is moving way too fast. As exciting as it is with #1, I need to think with a level head and not with my  ! I have been living in an abusive relationship for a decade, that is true. Girlfriend number one pointed this out clearly to me on the weekend and also indentified the fact I am still in it. She gets it because she has lived it many times herself.

This is so incredibly complex. For once in my life I need to stand up for myself! But for some unknown reason I am frozen like a mouse looking into the open mouth of a snake.