My daughter just told me the saddest thing, mom has uBPD

[Depression = 72% of members]

My daughter, and I have been to targets of my wife, who is uBPD for many years. I’m the primary target, but over the last five or six years my daughter has been involved with her circular arguments, rages.and the behaviors you all know all too well.

Something came up tonight that started with an argument between my wife and I. My daughter has become very involved with our church and the youth activities. She is 17 1/2 and I am so proud of her involved with the church. She’s developed several very strong friendships with the church and some of the other friendships at school have Diminished. Most of those friends are starting to drink alcohol and do things that my daughter doesn’t want to do now. Anyway, the youth in the church are starting a fast and giving up a handful of things for the next 40 days. I think it’s great, my daughter is very excited . My wife is upset and is saying things like this is going to the extreme, why does she have to give up sugar? She has to give up all these activities that she might usually do (like she’s not gonna watch our rated movies and focus more on God for this next 40 days). My wife I think is scared because she drinks a lot and she likes to watch shows like. The real housewives. And while my daughter is on this fast, she is not going to be watching this kind of shows. this started a whole circular argument with me. My wife expressed all this to me and I validated that I understood she was scared, but that her daughter was almost 18 and these are decision she can make for herself and I am proud of her for doing it. it just spiraled into a hole, circular argument, screaming eventually. Then my wife is texting my daughter back-and-forth about the fast. Making her feel guilty about it.

After my wife went to bed I went into the other room and talked to my daughter. I didn’t really know what my wife was texting her but I told my daughter that I supported her and I’m proud of her for doing what she’s doing. My daughter was very sad, she said she wasn’t feeling supported , mom and I know what she’s feeling because my wife has done it to me on many different occasions. I’m doing something she doesn’t like or doesn’t agree with and so she starts pressing this stifling guilt.

Anyway, I told my daughter that she has my support and she should continue. I told her something like I wish I was stronger for her and I’m sorry that mom is making her feel bad about this but she shouldn’t feel bad about it. You know what my daughter said to me? She told me you are strong dad most husbands wouldn’t have stuck around as long as you have…

I’ve just been in tears all night because of that. That my daughter has seen this so much that my own daughter would say something like that. How blind am I?

I’m trying to encourage her to be strong, but I feel like I am so weak and it’s been so hard for me to maintain boundaries and impose limits.

[campbembpd]

My daughter, and I have been to targets of my wife, who is uBPD for many years. I’m the primary target, but over the last five or six years my daughter has been involved with her circular arguments, rages.and the behaviors you all know all too well.

Something came up tonight that started with an argument between my wife and I. My daughter has become very involved with our church and the youth activities. She is 17 1/2 and I am so proud of her involved with the church. She’s developed several very strong friendships with the church and some of the other friendships at school have Diminished. Most of those friends are starting to drink alcohol and do things that my daughter doesn’t want to do now. Anyway, the youth in the church are starting a fast and giving up a handful of things for the next 40 days. I think it’s great, my daughter is very excited . My wife is upset and is saying things like this is going to the extreme, why does she have to give up sugar? She has to give up all these activities that she might usually do (like she’s not gonna watch our rated movies and focus more on God for this next 40 days). My wife I think is scared because she drinks a lot and she likes to watch shows like. The real housewives. And while my daughter is on this fast, she is not going to be watching this kind of shows. this started a whole circular argument with me. My wife expressed all this to me and I validated that I understood she was scared, but that her daughter was almost 18 and these are decision she can make for herself and I am proud of her for doing it. it just spiraled into a hole, circular argument, screaming eventually. Then my wife is texting my daughter back-and-forth about the fast. Making her feel guilty about it.

After my wife went to bed I went into the other room and talked to my daughter. I didn’t really know what my wife was texting her but I told my daughter that I supported her and I’m proud of her for doing what she’s doing. My daughter was very sad, she said she wasn’t feeling supported , mom and I know what she’s feeling because my wife has done it to me on many different occasions. I’m doing something she doesn’t like or doesn’t agree with and so she starts pressing this stifling guilt.

Anyway, I told my daughter that she has my support and she should continue. I told her something like I wish I was stronger for her and I’m sorry that mom is making her feel bad about this but she shouldn’t feel bad about it. You know what my daughter said to me? She told me you are strong dad most husbands wouldn’t have stuck around as long as you have…

I’ve just been in tears all night because of that. That my daughter has seen this so much that my own daughter would say something like that. How blind am I?

I’m trying to encourage her to be strong, but I feel like I am so weak and it’s been so hard for me to maintain boundaries and impose limits.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Notwendy]

I have a mother with BPD. When I post on the relationship board, it's if I have something that will hopefully add information. I try to present the perspective of the child when I think that might help.

I was very aware that the situation at home was disordered by the time I was a teen ager. Little was known about BPD at the time and it was before the internet but I was looking in psychology books to see if there was some kind of explanation for my mother's behavior.

In some ways I was emotionally more mature than my mother, and also parentified. Yet, I was also naive about adult relationships and marriage- no 17 year old has that pespective yet.

BPD mother's issues were a family secret. We didn't dare to say anything about them. Of course I could see that what was going on with my mother wasn't OK. I had learned appropriate behavior and what isn't appropriate.

Of course your D knows- probably more than she lets on. It's good that you told her you are supportive of her- and her interests and dedication to her church activities. It's interesting that your wife isn't pleased that your D doesn't want to watch these shows with her. Parents with PD's see their children as extensions of themselves. Your D is asserting that she is her own separate person - and IMHO making wise choices. Teens don't know who they are yet, but they need to differentiate themselves from their parents. I didn't want to act like BPD mother. She also drank at the time. I was afraid of being drunk and so avoided drinking.

On the other hand, I hope your D isn't being too hard on herself. Growing up, we walked on eggshells. A small transgression could be the "crime of the century" to BPD mother. I tried very hard to be "good enough" as if I could change BPD mother by being good enough, but that is an impossible task. Parents have an influence on how children form their concept of God. It's hard to feel secure in God's love when one doesn't feel this at home. Trying to be good in the moral sense is a good thing. Trying to be "good enough" for God - as if one has to work hard to earn God's love isn't feeling secure in what is a given- God made your D exactly as she is and God's love is a given. I hope she can be secure in that. Yes, she is on a sugar fast because she chose to but if she were to eat a cookie tomorrow- that won't change God's love for her.

I think it's good that your D has found a support community at her church. Considering that teens want a peer group, this is a good one. It is good that you support her choice. On the other hand, don't be misled by her apparent maturity. Underneath that veneer is a teen age girl who is dealing with a disordered mother in the best way she knows how and she's still very young.

[campbembpd]

 

I thought maybe a night's sleep would calm things down. Silly man...

woke up this morning to an even more infuriated wife saying:

• I don't support her the way she needs to be supported
• We're divorcing, that's it
• She started throwing my clothes from the bedroom closet onto the couch and told me I'm moving to the spare room
• It continued until she cleared off every shelf with my clothes, nick nacks, christmas gifts I gave her
• Said she is telling our kids we're divorcing and she is telling our daughter it's her fault
• While I was in a meeting, she berated my daughter to tears, telling her she's a bad Christian
• I've treated her badly our whole marriage and she's finally had enough

There's a lot more she said and did. I only engaged a little. Asking her how she needs to be supported. Ultimately it became about me not agreeing with her on our daughter doing a fast for church. Wife thinks its too extreme, she said it's "cultish" and she's going to lose out on friendships because she won't want to hang out with some of her friends who swear, talk about sex and hooking up, etc. I disagree and said I am proud of our daughter and support her. This is the typical scenario. Me having a different opinion = me not supporting her. I did try validating her feelings the night before - using phrases like "I understand why you might feel upset, etc" But I wasn't agreeing with her so she stewed and stews.

I've not engaged in any arguing, I did ask her a few times to please not throw my stuff on the ground. I walked away and told her I had to join a work meeting (we both work from home) - which I did. She proceeded to bring in a few more things into my office and clutter my desk with things I had given her while I'm on a work conference call.

We had setup a financial advisor to help us with finances this month (spending is also out of control). She wanted the contact number to tell the advisor that we need to be counselled on separating and preparing for divorce. My first instinct was to say no, let's not make any rash decisions until things calm down, let's give it a day or 2 if we need. She's the type of person to fire off emails and texts in a rage and she wouldn't have any part of waiting. I gave her the number, I decided she needs to take ownership of her actions and I shouldn't protect her. But it may screw us if she doesn't. the whole purpose of getting a financial counselor was for a 3rd party to tell my wife we can't spend like she wants to. For our whole marriage whenever I curb spending or tell her facts she doesn't like, I become "controlling" and she spirals into a rage, threats of divorce, etc. I was hoping a 3rd party would make it more real for her and I wouldn't be the one making decrees. But I may have to now...

I expect more storms coming. I'm trying to maintain boundaries. Prayers please.

[Notwendy]

In some ways it seems like you are married to my BPD mother. For reference, I am middle age, and my mother is elderly, but- I remember being 17.

The Karpan triangle has been a helpful model for me in understanding the dynamics in the family. As I mentioned before, parents with PD's see their children as extensions of themselves and when children are little, they are less individualized. The normal task of a teen is to differentiate from their parent. The teen years can be challenging even for parents who don't have BPD. It takes a strong sense of self and maturity on the part of a parent to recognize this and not take it personally. Parents with BPD don't have a strong sense of self or emotional maturity.

Your D is becoming her own mature individual. When she disgrees with your wife, your wife perceives this as an attack on her. (D is in persector position) PwBPD take on victim perspective. Most likely, your role in relationship to her is as rescuer/enabler. She expects you to take her side in this as rescuer against your D. When you agreed with your D, you also took on persecutor role with her and she feels attacked and unsupported.

While it makes sense to you that a parent would support a child, an
almost grown adult (I think especially a female) feels like competition for someone with BPD. Two common ( and not a good thing) results of having a disordered parent are parentification and also "emotional incest" and as creepy as this sounds, it isn't necessarily sexual in the actual sense- it is relying on the child to meet an emotional need that a partner would ordinarily need.

Emotionally, I had an odd feeling that I was more emotionally mature than my BPD mother in some ways- starting at about age 12. She would be acting out emotionally in ways I thought were younger. I was parentified- I think that is almost inevitable. As to the possibility of emotional incest, I don't think my father looked to me for emotional needs but we were all emotional caretakers for BPD mother. I think, for my father, he was ovewhelmed and so this was helpful to him. In terms of the Karpman triangle, I aligned with my father- which then could put me at odds with my mother. I knew I had to obey her, but I also didn't think her behaviors were OK.

As to telling your D she's a bad Christian, I think I have heard all kinds of things from my BPD mother. One was that I was the reason for their marital problems. At 17, I believed this. I believed that once I went to college, my parents' would be happy together. It was a younger sibling who told me that this wasn't the case. What this is is actually verbal abuse. I thought that abuse was just being hit, or starved or harmed in some way. My parents didn't do that- but there were plenty of insults from BPD mother. It did impact my self esteem. Fortunately, I had supportive friends. They were essential. I am glad for your D that she does too.

As to your wife, I don't think you need to be appeasing her and come down on your D for no reason but perhaps the Karpman dynamics will help you to understand what is going on.

 

[campbembpd]

Your D is becoming her own mature individual. When she disgrees with your wife, your wife perceives this as an attack on her. (D is in persector position) PwBPD take on victim perspective. Most likely, your role in relationship to her is as rescuer/enabler. She expects you to take her side in this as rescuer against your D. When you agreed with your D, you also took on persecutor role with her and she feels attacked and unsupported.

Yes this seems to fit very well. If I don't agree with my wife in anything that has to do with our daughter then I'm taking my daughter's side. My wife feels attacked. Again and again. And if daughter has nothing to do with the fight of the week, and I disagree with her, she feels attacked.

She asked me how I can keep treating her so horribly, so awful? She said I wouldn't do this to her again and again if I really loved her. She's lost her husband... When I ask what I did and what does she mean by treating her so terrible, she said it's not supporting her. When I ask how she feels like she needs support her response is that I need to agree with her and support her position so we can be unified. It's only her position that ever counts though...

[campbembpd]

And I'm seeing the split more and more. Just a few days ago it was rainbows and unicorns. Telling me how she couldn't imagine her life without me or with anyone else. How we have so much good and we get through the bad.

One wrong comment or response and now it's threats of divorce, calling 2 divorce lawyers in front of me to get information and costs. How she can't live like this and I've treated her terribly our whole marriage, etc, etc. 

I love her but I see so much mental illness now. It's hard to see how that can be overcome when it's always everyone else.

[Notwendy]

It makes sense that my BPD mother would blame the marital issues on me if my father had ever defended me- due to the thinking that someone or something else is to blame. But my going away to college didn't solve this for them.

On the other hand, it was best for me to move out and work at becoming independent. So for your D's sake- I hope she has plans in place to accomplish that - either through education or employment. As the spouse- the decision to stay or leave is up to you. For all children-with or without a BPD parent, they need to become fully independent adults and in our modern times, this is a process involving college or other job training often with parent assistance. I hope you can be on board with helping her to achieve this.

[kells76]

Hi campbembpd,

Are you in touch with any of the youth leaders at your D17's church?

I wonder if it might help your D17 if the leaders knew a bit more about the pressure she's under -- that it isn't just "well Mom isn't a Christian and so she thinks going to church is dumb", it's much more than that. Of course, it wouldn't be a blame or vent session, but getting you and the leaders on the same page to care about your daughter could be helpful for her.

Food for thought;

kells76

[campbembpd]

Hi campbembpd,

Are you in touch with any of the youth leaders at your D17's church?

I wonder if it might help your D17 if the leaders knew a bit more about the pressure she's under -- that it isn't just "well Mom isn't a Christian and so she thinks going to church is dumb", it's much more than that. Of course, it wouldn't be a blame or vent session, but getting you and the leaders on the same page to care about your daughter could be helpful for her.

Food for thought;

kells76

That's good advice, really wonderful idea... The thing is we all go to the same church, daughter is in her own youth program. Mom is a Christian but often screams and rages about it because she feels 'judged' by other people. My wife drinks excessively, is always looking to 'party' and just wants to have 'fun', lashes out at people, gossips terribly but claims such virtuosity. I had to step in yesterday and remove my daughter from the living room and stop my wife because my pwuBPD was screaming about how good a christian she (mom) was then saying nasty comments sarcastically that my daughter's friend parent was so 'perfect' and such a good Christian she doesn't need mom anymore. It was vile to me. My daughter spent the night at a friends. 

My daughter is 17 1/2 so I feel comfortable talking with her about bringing this up with some church leaders together, they have church counselors at the church as well. Thanks for the wonderful thought. 

[Notwendy]

Another idea is ACA or Alateen. I have done a lot of work in 12 step groups- and ACA. I don't know if there's a minimum age for ACA but I think a teen would be more comfortable with other teens. Alcohol isn't an issue in my now family so I didn't know if it would be helpful but what I learned is that the family dynamics with BPD are similar to that of a family where someone is an alcoholic- so it can be helpful even if alcohol is not involved. ACA has now expanded to "adult children of alcoholics and dysfunction".

Not all people with BPD have an issue with drinking and not all alcoholics have BPD but both can coexist.

I think counseling for your D is a good idea. If the youth pastors can provide this- great. On the other hand, your D may be hesitant to discuss issues in the same church you and your wife attend. A separate counselor may feel more comfortable. It's up to her. The 12 step groups don't take the place of counseling but can be helpful too.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother did drink when we were younger. She's elderly now and doesn't do it to that extent- probably hard to handle at an older age.