Figuring out why I attract Crazy

[SaltyDawg]

My preference is to not recalibrate the definitions of words when there is utterly no basis for the reconfiguration.

Augustine,

   I would agree with you; however, I would like to be mindful that some members are more sensitive than others and I do not wish to offend, as I had to shift my words for my wife who is also hypersensitive and I needed to rephrase my words in order to reduce the likelihood of triggering her.

   I personally do not find it offensive, nor do those in my community, as the local highschool calls, that my child attends, their cheering section at most sporting events calls themselves "The __________ Crazies" of about a hundred or so neurotypical children cheering for their team - good fun for the kids.  The _blank_ is the name of the high school.

SD

cra·zy
/ˈkrāzē/
INFORMAL
adjective
adjective: crazy; comparative adjective: crazier; superlative adjective: craziest


1. mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.
          "Stella went crazy and assaulted a visitor"

  extremely annoyed or angry.
          "the noise they made was driving me crazy"

  foolish.
          "it was crazy to hope that good might come out of this mess"


2.  extremely enthusiastic.
          "I'm crazy about Cindy"


3.  (of an angle) appearing absurdly out of place or in an unlikely position.
          "the monument leaned at a crazy angle"


ARCHAIC
          (of a ship or building) full of cracks or flaws; unsound or shaky.


adverb - NORTH AMERICAN
extremely.
          "I've been crazy busy"


noun - NORTH AMERICAN
noun: crazy; plural noun: crazies

a mentally deranged person.
          "keep that crazy away from me"


Phrases
like crazy — to a great degree.
          "I was laughing like crazy"


Origin

late 16th century (in sense ‘full of cracks’): from craze
          like crazy


phrase of crazy

INFORMAL
to a great degree.
         "I was laughing like crazy"

To summarize, I do not find the term offensive; however, as some do, I need to respect that, even though I so like to use words that I can play with the meaning - as humor is one of my coping mechanisms when dealing with the disordered.

[SinisterComplex]

Note to all...just a friendly reminder to keep discussions as collegium. Please see Membership Board Guideline 2.1 for further reference. To make it simple and concise a cliff notes part of our guideline: Please note that collegial discussion is different than debate. Debate is an argument or a discussion generally ending with a vote or agreement on the best decision. In debate, unity is the objective. Members are discouraged from debating and arguing against others' positions, or questioning the wisdom of others, or restating of their position repeatedly.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[SaltyDawg]

It happened again, my 6th sense was triggered, yet again, this time at a convenience store, I was getting a large diet soda and some Korean BBQ, and the clerk behind the counter as I was leaving the store said to me "I wish I had a husband like you..." as I smiled and waved good-bye clearly showing my wedding band...

The meeting was all of 90 seconds, give or take, the girl behind the counter was slender and attractive, around 6 foot, 5 inches tall (I'm 6 foot 2 inches), about 10-15 years my junior so she did catch my eye and I smiled at her as I approached the counter.  She struck up a conversation as I was checking out, I don't remember the exact exchange of small talk / pleasantries, but it did involve her giving me a good discount at the register of her initiative, I mentioned that I do like to save money (who doesn't).  After I had gotten my receipt, I thanked her, and told her to have a pleasant day.  She then told me "I wish I had a husband like you", I held up my left hand and flashed my wedding band waving good-bye as I was leaving the store.

While there was nothing that indicated BPD; however, I do feel that something with that interchange was clearly "off" - fortunately I was only passing through the area a couple hundred miles from home, so I doubt I will ever see this person again - it was certainly memorable with the 'weird' vibes factor.

I would have thought nothing of the exchange of pleasantries if she said "thank you" or something similar.  However, when I was told she wanted a husband like me - that triggered me and I couldn't get out of the store fast enough.

Thoughts?

[Notwendy]

I hope the discount was legit- such as a tripple A, military, student, etc- so it isn't hurting the business. That would be a boundary violation.

As to what she said- I think it's hard to interpret a compliment. She said "like you" not "you". It's a bit off but maybe she really meant- a nice conscientious husband and not more- or more- but only if you had taken it further, which you didn't.

I recall seeing one of my kids' coaches at an award ceremony dressed up in a nice suit. I had only seen him in athletic clothing, and I spontanously said something like "you look nice all dressed up" and meant absolutely nothing more than that. It was actually a bit of a surprise statement than anything else as we don't usually see someone out of context. If he always wore a suit, that wouldn't be different. I'd have said the same to a female coach if she were all dressed up. He replied something like "my wife wouldn't like hearing this". I felt shocked and embarrased. I don't think I said a word to him after that.

At work, we have training not to say something like that. I wouldn't ever consider complimenting anyone on their appearance in the workplace. But now, I don't do it to anyone, unless I know them very well and they know me well enough to know I only mean the compliment.

Was the clerk being out of line or just being complimentary in a bit of an odd way? I don't think it's possible to know. But back to boundaries- you are married and so, it's not going to go further no matter what she meant or what her boundaries are.

[SaltyDawg]

NW,

   The discount was legit, it was posted in the window in the front of the store. 

   As always your perspective is appreciated as it is different from mine and offers a different point of view that I had not considered.  However, those were the words she spoke; however, her non-verbals, body language, she seemed a bit overly interested which made me feel uncomfortable interacting with her.

   I do have strong boundaries, especially when it comes to being loyal and my BPDw has questioned even more innocent interactions with other women - I know if my wife was with me at the time (she wasn't) this would have triggered her - I'm guessing part of it is still the walking on eggshells routine, even though this has improved dramatically in the past few months.

[Tangled mangled]

Agree with what NW said. Although it does sound like an odd way to compliment a customer, some people just don’t take themselves too seriously.
Working in healthcare, I see this all the time, with female workers saying oh I wish my husband would do that or I wish I had a partner like that, a way to say I wish someone I know would do so and so.

What would you say about workplace ‘husband’ and’wife’. If my husband told me he had a work ‘wife’, I wouldn’t be so insecure to worry about it, as long as there’s trust within the relationship.
I wonder if you are picking up on these signs because you have been falsely accused by your pwbpd.
I am training in a male driven field so I too have experienced what NW described with the sports coach. I had a chat with colleagues, sometimes not even giving compliments, just sharing a benign joke , not even personal, and I’ve had one raise his left hand to flash his wedding band and another quickly mentioned his wife in the next statement.
All that says to me is that my male colleagues were displaying their wife’s projected insecurities.
I’ve walked past some couples- a bit older than myself and watched how just being civil, like saying sorry or thank you while passing on a narrow pavement triggers the women’s insecurities, like they grab their partners arm tightly as if to say back off.
In my job I have looked after male patients whose partners are so insecure when I approach their husbands or boyfriends- being pleasant as my role requires- but triggering their partner’s insecurities.

Just my 2 cents- some people say  inappropriate comments in the name of being nice as part of their jobs.

[Notwendy]

I think everyone has a filter that we experience things through. When I think back on the coach's response, I wonder- was it something I did? Or is it him? Are women frequently hitting on him so he assumes it? Or is he walking on eggshells that a comment like that would upset his wife? We can't know what someone else is thinking.

Is it your wife's interpretation that if a woman is friendly to you, then she's a threat? Or is it your radar and you picked up on crazy? Or is the cashier over the top friendly with everyone?

It's interesting as we do sense boundaries when we interact with other people. It would be interesting to consider what about the cashier made you feel uncomfortable. Was it her or was it being worried about your wife's reaction?

I think our radar for "crazy" is important and protects us from dysfunctional relationships, so good to pay attention to it. For whatever reason, you felt uncomfortable. Perhaps that's the most important aspect no matter what the clerk intended.

[Steppenwolf]

I've been working with my own therapist on developing CRAYDAR (Crazy RADAR) where, like you, I can now detect crazy with my gut feeling.

I also am working with my therapist, on figuring out why I attract Crazy, and I am attracted to Crazy.

I have been thinking a lot about a similar question lately. But mostly about the second part, why do I feel attracted to Crazy (no valueing implied by me). I do feel there are some reasons that are specific to me and some others, but that are often lacking in this discussion.

I was late-diagnosed with ADHD a while ago, but never cared about it except for medication. Currently I am finding out that I also have a lot of ASD traits, maybe even enough for a complete ASD diagnosis.

Yeah, all my life I felt attracted to highly emotional reactive crazy type of women. I kind of don't need to develop a CRAYDAR. In my life I have been attracted to only two types of women, other neurodivergents or cluster-B women. If I am attracted to her, I can be absolutely sure by now she ticks at least one of those boxes.

One reason I think I feel so extremely attracted to cluster-B is that they often allow themselves to more openly show traits that I learned to mask. I have been abused or mobbed frequently whenever I tried to be openly myself, so this really is something I am missing in my life. And it would just be so great to be someone who allows himself to be more openly atypical and also to have another person in my life who feels the same way and can relate to feeling different from others. I found both types of women that I feel attracted to can deeply relate to this experience and this creates an instant bond.

Also I do share a lot of the emotional high-reactivity. Neurodivergence and cluster-B disorders have an extremely high overlap in terms of symptoms. BPD is a very common misdiagnosis for women with ADHD or ASD, so even professionals seem to struggle with detecting the difference.

It is something I am currently trying to come to terms with. I almost had a final breakup with my uBPDw a few months ago and reflected heavily on this and how I want to live my life in the future. Realizing I feel highly attracted to both cluster-Bs and neurodivergent women made me feel much less like a victim and showed me all the beautiful aspects these relationships have put into my life. It also helped me realize that I really have to work on my on unmasking to feel much less in need of following someone else in their atypical ways and to learn more about myself.

[Pensive1]

Thought I’d comment on this comment, because elements of it are so on the mark.

Figuring out why I attract Crazy?
You don't.
First, I would use a word that supports clear thinking like "emotionally available and willing to value me" (not crazy). And I would rephrase the question to be something like, "why am I willing to overlook significant personal issues in another person to have access to emotionally availability and being valued"?
Others have said this above in different ways.
So, we conducted a survey a few years back asking members what kind of emotional state they were in when the got involved with their "BPD" or "BPD-ish" partner. Overwhelmingly, members described being in a situationally vulnerable state; recently broken up from another relationship, recently divorced, lost a job, learned of a health issue, financial problems, dealing with the death/loss of someone dear, etc. Others described longer term vulnerabilities such as lack of confidence, feeling unlovable, feeling old, substance abuse problems, underachievement. Feelings of be  undervalued. Wounded.
Vulnerable.
Only a small percent were "on their game".

In my case, I got together with my BPD ex not long after my ex-wife decided to end our marriage. I was extremely vulnerable at that point, and very down on myself. And I was willing to disregard all kinds of “significant personal issues”. My BPD ex was in a financially disastrous state (actually facing eviction), her apartment was a mess (dishes hadn’t been washed in many months, etc.), her son was in rebellion, and she spoke endlessly of having been victimized by others. But I totally fell for her.

Then my ex-wife begged me to come back. And I temporarily returned to her. I did that both out of a sense of duty to my ex-wife and also because my BPD ex’s constant litany of her resentments/victimization really bothered me. But then I left my ex-wife and returned to my BPD ex. None of what I did in that period showed good thinking or decent judgement.

People with BPD undervalue themselves and tend to seek relationships with some level of imbalance in their favor. They learn from experience that they will be more appreciated in this type of paring (e.g. younger women with older man, extrovert with introvert, "hot" with "average looking", sexual, etc.)
This is why we encourage members coming out of these relationships to do their best to not see themselves as victims and be again be vulnerable. This is not to say that the relationship and the problems were their fault. Hardly. But it is to say that need based, compensating relationships which we think our solving our problems may just be trading one problem for another.
Being idealized by an attractive partner when we are in a weakened state, is a powerful force. And for our partner, having someone idealizing them back is equally powerful.

BPDs really do undervalue themselves – that’s very true of my ex. But our relationship didn’t really have imbalance in her favor. I was younger, had my life more together, would likely have been considered better looking, etc. Though with the ending of my prior marriage, I considered myself much more at fault than my ex-wife (I would now say that my ex-wife and I contributed about equally to problems in that relationship). My getting together with someone with BPD when I did was definitely trading one problem for another.

The NPD guy who pursued and got my BPD partner (ending our relationship) did so at a nadir-point in her life. Her son had become addicted to meth, suicidal, and homeless. And in the midst of that, I was gone for a month caring for a dying relative (and people with BPD don’t do well with being alone – especially in the midst of such crisis). So she was extremely vulnerable when he moved in on her. And he was love-bombing/idealizing her, and that was extremely powerful. Other than the fact that he was married (and cheating on his wife), he was the more attractive and accomplished “partner”. She definitely saw that relationship as solving her problems, but it actually left her much worse off (her mental health is far worse now), and she traded me – basically a decent guy who really loved her – for a controlling philanderer who can’t genuinely love her and is keeping her as a secret mistress. 

In my case, I appear to go for all kinds of crazy. My ex-wife was bipolar and alcoholic, and also suffered from impacts of childhood trauma. My recent ex had pretty severe (definitely not high-functioning) BPD. And the other woman I fell most strongly for had Dissociative Identity Disorder. Other women I've felt milder infatuation with also have all had significant mental health issues.

For me, it’s clear that it goes back to my childhood. My mother had severe BPD. And she was alcoholic. There was a ton of violence and abuse, including some sexual abuse. I was very much a parentified child, and much of my childhood was spent taking care of my mom. And I developed a strong self-sacrifice schema, where I feel compelled to take care of other people’s needs before my own. I feel like I need to rescue women in distress. There’s definitely what psychologists refer to as “repetition compulsion”, where I’m driven to put myself in circumstances that repeat my childhood trauma. In the case of the woman with DID that turned out semi-OK. We didn’t get together as romantic partners (even though I was strongly attracted to her), and I found a therapist for her, and she put in a ton of work to heal, and is now entirely free of DID. Actually, she’s now my best friend (and it’s a healthy friendship and I have zero romantic attraction to her). But I know the odds of a semi-OK outcome when I go down this path are minimal. I know it’s extremely unhealthy and I’m trying to change these patterns via therapy. I’m finding Schema Therapy especially helpful - one thing it focuses on is why we keep repeatedly seeking out the same types of problematic romantic partners.

[Pensive1]

… Red Flag strategies don't work. 
Its not what to avoid in a women, it is what intrinsic values do you seek?  It is about learning how to read and understand people.
 

I’m not sure about this. I agree that learning how to read and understand people is crucial in choosing an appropriate romantic partner. But each of three seriously mentally ill women I fell for have had intrinsic values that were notably consistent with my own. They were each highly compassionate people. They were all notably kind women. And this played out in many of the choices each of them made. Integrity mattered to each of them. They each sought to be honest more than the average person.  Insofar as political views reflect ethical beliefs, there was notable consistently with my own political views.

With each of these three women, disordered thinking led, at times, to screwy beliefs and severely problematic behavior (including behavior that hurt others). But there’s not necessarily a fundamental dissonance of values. And everyone at times acts in ways that are inconsistent with their own values. The fact that my BPD ex is with an affair partner who is cheating on his wife is not only inconsistent with my values, but is also inconsistent with her own values (and this clearly bothers her). I’m not saying this to absolve her behaviors – but it’s not clear to me that a solely positive focus on having shared intrinsic values is sufficient for making appropriate choices in romantic partners.

[SaltyDawg]

Tangled Mangled,

Thank you for sharing.

What would you say about workplace ‘husband’ and’wife’. If my husband told me he had a work ‘wife’, I wouldn’t be so insecure to worry about it, as long as there’s trust within the relationship.
I wonder if you are picking up on these signs because you have been falsely accused by your pwbpd.

I think you are definitely on to something here as I had effectively isolated myself socially because of these false accusations - it is something I am working on with my own individual therapist on my own issues.

I am training in a male driven field so I too have experienced what NW described with the sports coach. I had a chat with colleagues, sometimes not even giving compliments, just sharing a benign joke , not even personal, and I’ve had one raise his left hand to flash his wedding band and another quickly mentioned his wife in the next statement.
All that says to me is that my male colleagues were displaying their wife’s projected insecurities.

Thank you for your insight, I agree with it now that I can see it from a different perspective - this is much appreciated.

I’ve walked past some couples- a bit older than myself and watched how just being civil, like saying sorry or thank you while passing on a narrow pavement triggers the women’s insecurities, like they grab their partners arm tightly as if to say back off.
In my job I have looked after male patients whose partners are so insecure when I approach their husbands or boyfriends- being pleasant as my role requires- but triggering their partner’s insecurities.

My wife has been triggered when this happens in a similar manner that you have described.  Thanks for sharing your observations that have been extremely valuable to me.

Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

I think everyone has a filter that we experience things through. When I think back on the coach's response, I wonder- was it something I did? Or is it him? Are women frequently hitting on him so he assumes it? Or is he walking on eggshells that a comment like that would upset his wife? We can't know what someone else is thinking.

These are all good guesses as to what is happening.  For me, it is a lot more than just words, it is non-verbals, such as body language - I usually can differentiate the difference.  Subconsciously, I am walking on eggshells, as it would upset my wife and has in the past, so that can be a component of me being triggered - there was something definitely off about her mentally in addition to her almost cartoonish physical attributes.

Is it your wife's interpretation that if a woman is friendly to you, then she's a threat? Or is it your radar and you picked up on crazy? Or is the cashier over the top friendly with everyone?

There was one other customer in the store, and she was not friendly with him - looked like a local person who had walked to the store (no other vehicles in the lot) - this was perhaps why I felt this way, as I was definitely being treated differently in a markedly much more friendly way.

It's interesting as we do sense boundaries when we interact with other people. It would be interesting to consider what about the cashier made you feel uncomfortable. Was it her or was it being worried about your wife's reaction?

As I was definitely treated differently than the other customer, it was her, as I usually don't feel uncomfortable with friendly women, except when I am singled out - and in this instance I was.

With respect to my wife's reaction, whenever a woman treats me nice, she does become protective, but makes sure she treats me nicer that the  woman that she perceives as a threat to her.

I think our radar for "crazy" is important and protects us from dysfunctional relationships, so good to pay attention to it. For whatever reason, you felt uncomfortable. Perhaps that's the most important aspect no matter what the clerk intended.

Agreed, after having been exposed to a lot in the past few years, my 'gut' feeling more often than not is quite accurate.  I have since learned how to use 'wise mind' to discern more accurately what I am encountering.

[Notwendy]

One possibility is that you attract "crazy" but another is that you attract people and some of them are crazy because there's a mix in the general population. You may not be noticing the ones who are not crazy- because they don't cross boundaries.

Attraction is personality factors too. I have a friend who I would not describe as movie star attractive but he's likable and approachable. He didn't marry a disordered person but I wouldn't be surprised if he attracted both disordered and not disordered people because people like him in general.

As you said, it's a lot of non verbal communication. I think we can "sense" boundaries when interacting with others. I feel more comfortable interacting with some people than others even if I can't describe exactly why.

[SaltyDawg]

One possibility is that you attract "crazy" but another is that you attract people and some of them are crazy because there's a mix in the general population. You may not be noticing the ones who are not crazy- because they don't cross boundaries.

Good point.

As you said, it's a lot of non verbal communication. I think we can "sense" boundaries when interacting with others. I feel more comfortable interacting with some people than others even if I can't describe exactly why.

Another good point you are making here, thanks for sharing. 

Take care.

[Kashi]

"had a lesbian affair in college"

What?   

Are you kidding.  That constitutes something bad does it?

Looking for perfection?   People have experiences across their lives.   They are entitled to do that.

Using that red flag method nobody should have a relationship with anyone who had a relationship with a pwBPD

Which is all of us.   Would you say we should be seen as a red flag?

I personally do not understand how people get trapped by love bombing.  I didn't.  I saw it and I started to balance it for her, that was my mistake.   My mistake was I saw her inexperience (or perhaps that was a lie as well) anyway I read the room wrong in that regard.

I don't judge people for being sucked into a love bomb, I just don't know how that can happen.  Do people think they are actually that great? It's so obvious but people do fall for it, and you learn.  So be it.

Plain and simple.   I completely read the bloody room wrong.   I thought something happened in her past and she would tell me one day about it.

I thought she could add value to my life, and that she would grow with time.   We were both fairly young at the time.  I had more experience.  I knew what I wanted.   I knew the pitfalls of relationships and I thought that I had the key.  On paper and on the non-emotional side we absolutely did.  On that side we were a team to me reckoned with.  She is very successful.  But the persona was a lie.  I didn't know that someone could fake it until they make it for so bloody long.  One day I realized she was not growing, and I was in a state where time had flown past and I lost myself in it.  Plus, in the middle there was a chaos time and I tried to get help from her family and was told it was nothing.  They convinced me it's a family trait because of the way they were raised.  Now I believe the father is BPD and the mother is a Narc.  Everyone was telling me just be patient. 

I believed it.  I believed until I couldn't believe anymore.  Another mistake.

Don't judge people though because they had a life experience. 

That is like saying that a lesbian should judge me because I had an affair with a man when I was young.  Which I did and surprisingly many lesbians would judge me for it.  Go figure.

I would prefer to have someone with real life experiences, so they have worked through the process of growth and know what they want.   I would be checking that they do know what they want, and they aren't aligning it to me and my "desires" completely. Differences are healthy.   I want to hear what they think without be standing in the forefront leading the conversation. 

[SaltyDawg]

Using that red flag method nobody should have a relationship with anyone who had a relationship with a pwBPD

Which is all of us.   Would you say we should be seen as a red flag?

Sad, but true - anyone who gets into a relationship with a pwBPD, and stays in one - that person has issues, I know do, so, yes, I can admit - if I have not worked on my own issues, I too would be a  ; however, I do feel now that I have worked through many of my own issues with my individual therapist, I am now a 

I personally do not understand how people get trapped by love bombing.  I didn't.  I saw it and I started to balance it for her, that was my mistake.   My mistake was I saw her inexperience (or perhaps that was a lie as well) anyway I read the room wrong in that regard.

I don't judge people for being sucked into a love bomb, I just don't know how that can happen.  Do people think they are actually that great? It's so obvious but people do fall for it, and you learn.  So be it.

Plain and simple.   I completely read the bloody room wrong.   I thought something happened in her past and she would tell me one day about it.

Well, for me, I was love(sex) bombed, and enjoyed it immensely.  I was a bit inexperienced, so I too read her wrong, as I didn't know how to read at the time for this one; however, the previous one was a little more obvious, so I left her.

I firmly believe that PWBPD are adult predatory groomers.

[...]

Grooming is a tool that predators use to gain the trust of a target, and ultimately manipulate that trust to gain sexual, monetary, or other advantages. You may have heard the term as it applies to children, but adults can also groom other adults. In fact, some adults may use other adults, and particularly women, to help them in their grooming.

As with other forms of manipulation, grooming is not a simple cut-and-dry technique. It plays on an individual’s insecurities and, even in a strong-minded person, can wreak havoc psychologically.

Recognizing grooming for what it is can help you avoid being groomed yourself or help you support a friend survive a predator.


The Stages of Grooming
Master manipulators use grooming to get what they want out of someone, whether it’s sex, morally questionable behavior, money, or something else. (Does Dirty John ring a bell?)

Whether the target is an adult or child, the stages of grooming by the predator toward their target are typically the same:

Friendship-forming: The predator will work to determine a target’s candidacy by asking questions about the target’s life and gauging their vulnerability, and also getting contact information such as social media handles or phone numbers.
Relationship-forming: The predator works to gain the target’s trust, often through secret-sharing or by fulfilling a need. For instance, they may run errands for the victim or pay for bills. The predator may also share a secret that “only the target can know”, then ask for a similar secret to level the playing field.

Threat-gauging: The predator will engage in a risk assessment to determine how accessible the victim truly is. This is more common among predators who are grooming children but can also happen with adults who will check a target’s relationship strength with friends, family, and roommates.

Isolation: The predator will begin distancing the target from friends or family. This can be done in multiple ways, including surprisingly positive methods such as compliments and favors. The predator may tell the intended victim that they feel an especially strong connection to them, or that they understand each other in a special way that no one else can get. Control is the predator’s intent. By appearing calm and concerning, the predator is seeking to increase their influence over the victim to advance their agenda.

Abuse: In this phase, the predator will start to use the target to meet their needs. With children, this is generally sexual in nature, but predators will use victims for money, to accomplish morally questionable things for them, or even just to fill an emotional need.

Maintenance: Once the victim is doing what the predator wants, the predator will work to keep them under control through various means. These methods can include gas-lighting (telling the victim their feelings are crazy or unreasonable), destroying the victim’s self-esteem, or continuing the isolate the victim from their loved ones.


I KNOW I WAS GROOMED

I too feel as though I was groomed, the first was one was very maliciously intentional back in the 1990's - she was looking for a 'gravy train' - someone to take care of her.  However, the one I am currently married to was also very intentional; however, even though her behaviors were terroristic in nature; however, I did not see premeditation in her.

Thank you for sharing your observations, Kashi, as this resonates for me as well for both borderlines - it is very insightful.

[PeteWitsend]

When I start to look for reasons now, I have to check myself because I know that we can never really KNOW why something happened; we're just trying to fit explanations to the facts we have, but our understanding of the world is never fully thorough & we can't know how things would have gone had we changed them.

I started another thread kind of  like this a couple months ago, where I wondered if sometimes it's just bad luck.. i.e. there are X% of disordered people out there, and you have a certain probability of meeting only disordered people.  So it might not be you.

Also, it seems like disordered people intentionally seek out relationships; they're emotionally needy and will therefore always be "on the hunt."  If you're kind and polite and not a "user" yourself, you're a mark for them. 

[SaltyDawg]

When I start to look for reasons now, I have to check myself because I know that we can never really KNOW why something happened; we're just trying to fit explanations to the facts we have, but our understanding of the world is never fully thorough & we can't know how things would have gone had we changed them.

I agree 'we can never really KNOW why something happened'; however, I am going to postulate that with enough evidence cycles (with covert recordings, to review what actually happened), a pretty good guess can be made of what actually happened.  When doing this, I try to detach myself emotionally, and look at it only under a logical perspective through a PD lens.  With extensive experience the patterns as they repeat themselves, and with each repeat the understanding becomes greater.  Two years ago, I had no clue.  About a year ago, I started to understand - with a lot of trial and error, I was able to get some pretty reasonable level of knowledge of what my pwBPD was thinking, when she was baseline, and also when she was/is dysregulated.

Also, it seems like disordered people intentionally seek out relationships; they're emotionally needy and will therefore always be "on the hunt."  If you're kind and polite and not a "user" yourself, you're a mark for them. 

I also agree with this, as I have been in two romantic BPD relationships.  Now that I have created a set of firm boundaries, my encounters with these kinds of people have become fewer as I will no longer 'overshare' when someone else 'overshares'.  I believe I have made myself a 'harder mark' for them.