Break Up Continued

[Brokenmind]

Hey SD

I went through the character flaws link for CODA you sent me, Some resonated and some were utterly repugnant to me:

• minimize, alter, or deny how they truly feel.
• mask pain in various ways such as isolation
• are embarrassed to receive recognition, praise, or gifts.
• value others’ approval of their thinking, feelings, and behavior over their own.
• do not perceive themselves as lovable or worthwhile persons.
• have difficulty admitting a mistake.
• are extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
• compromise their own values and integrity to avoid rejection or anger.
• put aside their own interests in order to do what others want.
• are hypervigilant regarding the feelings of others and take on those feelings.
• are afraid to express their beliefs, opinions, and feelings when they differ from those of others.
• accept sexual attention when they want love.
• give up their truth to gain the approval of others or to avoid change.
• freely offer advice and direction without being asked.
• demand that their needs be met by others.
• use charm and charisma to convince others of their capacity to be caring and compassionate.
• use indirect or evasive communication to avoid conflict or confrontation.
• suppress their feelings or needs to avoid feeling vulnerable.

It was a sobering read to say the least.

[SaltyDawg]

I will do this in my next session, my T did say when I contacted her that she has experienced in these matters but I fell like all I do is talk about my ex and I get a response which is either her sympathising with me and/or compares it to her own experiences (she had a BPD ex) which I find a bit odd as its almost like we are both focusing on them and not me.

If she has a BPDx, yes, she has personal (peer) experience in these matters which may not effectively translate well into what you should do for yourself.  For me, I tend to focus on my wife's behaviors first, how to put out the fire, how to manage a new dynamic that I hadn't seen before, before I will even focus on myself - a good therapist will follow your lead and gravitate in that direction as they are there to work on you.  For my therapist, when I focus too much on my wife, she will try and redirect me towards working on myself instead.
 

Im not actually sure what I want from my T. I would like her to be like a personal trainer in a gym, as in push and motivate me and give me healthy advice on how to stop ruminating about her and focus on me.

I too am that way, I personally push 'self-care' as this is a universal concept and is good for whomever does it, and I found I myself had neglected my own self-care sacrificing myself for my wife's wellbeing - a martyr.  Specifically ask your therapist to treat you in this manner, with 'firmness' and specific 'direction' - basically tell her the very same thing that you expressed to Tina, in bold above.

Stopping the ruminating... I can share is extremely difficult, if not impossible to do; however, the best thing I have personally found is to find distractions in the form of healthy coping mechanisms of self-care to fill my mind with a different purpose.  I previously gave you my exercise example, also getting lost in a good book, tv series, movie are also things I personally use to do this.

I will respond to a few more posts, in a separate replies.

Take care.

SD

[once removed]

As I mentioned to Tina7986,  all I do is talk about my ex and I get a response which is either her sympathising with me and/or compares it to her own experiences (she had a BPD ex) which I find a bit odd as its almost like we are both focusing on them and not me.

Do you think thats normal?

what youre describing is one particular style of support (or one part of an overall approach) called relating.

it is part of (a great deal of) what you see on this very board: you share your story, and someone relates to you by sharing theirs. ideally, you feel less alone, you feel understood, you get perspective.

it isnt for everyone, or all the time. i know that for me, at least when im in crisis, im too needy, and i dont have the bandwidth to spread my attention to someone elses story. i need the spotlight in order to feel heard.

all I do is talk about my ex

it really depends on what you mean by "all i do is talk about my ex".

when people show up at therapy to talk about someone else, especially in the early stages, theres not a great deal for a therapist to do but to actively listen. sometimes the patient needs to get it out before theyre ready to switch the focus, and a good therapist will recognize this. sometimes, thats really all the patient is there for...to talk it out (vent) and then theyre done.

if youre wanting feedback about your ex (or your therapist perceives that), your therapist has never met them, and cant really offer that. if youre wanting feedback about you, its important to communicate that.

remember, your therapist is assessing your needs, and going off of what youre communicating or not communicating.

I dont seem to be getting any advice on how to deal with how I feel.

be clear about this. what you are describing are "coping tools". ask for coping tools. if you scroll up, youll see a menu at the top that says "Tools". these are coping tools. if you check out the library, there are lots of workshops and articles that are full of them.

most of us came into our relationships with poor coping skills; we coped poorly during the relationship, and we coped poorly after it. learning to replace those old coping methods with healthier ones can help us become far more resilient in life and in love. its a good point of focus in your recovery.

I went through the character flaws link for CODA

this is not a list of character flaws, per se, and i would encourage you to look at it a little bit differently.

it is a list of beliefs and ways of coping. they describe how you deal with stress and relationship stress. they speak to how you see yourself, and how you relate to others.

we all develop coping mechanisms to help us deal with psychological stress as we grow. sometimes, some of those coping mechanisms, the older we get (as we become adults), stop serving us, or create problems. sometimes, even when that happens, theyve served us for so long, become so ingrained, they can be hard, even scary, to let go of, and replace, but worth it, when we do.

in other words, it isnt that you are "bad", and that you need to "remove these bad things". its that you need to see them, assess them, understand them fully and honestly, and understand how they mix with the people you bond with. some of them may be bad habits that you do want to stop, or change. some of them are things that may be neither "good" nor "bad", but may be more compatible with one person, and not compatible with another. some of them may be things about you that are unlikely to change all that much, but that you should be fully aware of how they will interact with others. for example, in romantic relationships, ive had a history of overpursuing...too much, too soon. it isnt necessarily something that is "wrong" with me, but i did need to understand that it can make it less likely for me to be successful in love; its a turn off. i did need to learn to recognize it, learn to read others better and how they perceive it, how to shift away from it, how to better cope with my anxieties.

but i still have those tendencies and anxieties. they are fairly ingrained (things that are ingrained can improve with practice). the difference is that i can see how they were impacting me, and im better equipped to switch gears. people with codependent tendencies, while we can be highly in tune with ourselves about lots of things, we dont tend to have the most objective view of ourselves, or how others see us. so much of recovery is about growing and maturing in that regard; learning, not only that better choices exist, but learning how to make them.

PS. any of those on that list would be good topics to discuss with your therapist.

[SaltyDawg]

This is what I feared and felt helpless during the the last 12 years. I felt like I was all he had and I remember trying so much to show him stable love and I hope my influence having someone he could talk and vent to.

See the problem I had was that I gave up so much of myself doing this. I was walking on eggshells, emotionally blackmailed and abused by her with daily tantrums, jealousy and suicidal thought but I also had to manage their relationship as their tantrums were so similar in intensity. Her son rarely directed it at me but it was heartbreaking to watch.

When she was verbally abusing him it was the only times I actually lost my temper with her, as in I would get really angry. I would internalise that anger when she abused me, even when she cheated, but I couldn't hold it when he was being attacked. I said things to her that I regret saying even if it was the truth, such as calling her an abusive mother. Looking back it amazes me that her response was not even of denial but am accusation that now she thinks I'm going to tell the authorities to take her son away (something her "abusive" ex tried to do)

BM,

Her son, is very lucky to have you as his advocate.  When and more importantly "if" he were to come into your life again, you will have a huge responsibility.  I would recommend first and foremost, get him into his own individual therapy. 

I will share when my son was in individual therapy, there was little progress for the first two years after the therapist listened to my wife's perspective; however, once I discovered, and eventually shared the BPD dynamic about my wife with his therapist, the therapy became extremely effective, and my son made more advances in two months, that he did in the first two years - almost like flipping a lightswitch on him.  At the same time, I also had communicated similar sentiments to my wife's therapist (it is a one-way communication to them) and my wife also made great progress in reducing her anger at the same time.  Perhaps they fed off each other, I don't know, and I don't care, as the end result was a whole lot more peace in the house along with significant improvement on their respective anger management issues. 

My son and wife had similar intensities; however, they had differences in duration of the rages.  Our son was typically 30 minutes to 45 minutes with extremes being 15 minutes and 90 minutes; whereas, my wife used to be 2-4 hours were typical, and extremes being 45 minutes to 7 hours - due to my wife's new dynamic of controlling most of her rages, this is now shifted to a much more muted mood swing, still very impactful, but it typically last for the remainder of the day, and if severe enough will span two wake-up cycles.  My son would recognize his tantrum and was remorseful and apologized for it; whereas, my wife thought she was right, and there was nothing to apologize for, no matter how wrong she might have been.

This was really prevalent in my ex. She would also generally say this about herself the opposite of who she was. Like she always hated cheats and would call them every name under the sun, she called her sister a prostitute when she cheated on her bf. But then she would cheat. There were times she said really disgusting racist and homophobic things but when I got angry she would get angrier saying she doesnt mean all of them and the fact she loves her nieces and brother proves that.

It so exhausting when it happens daily over many years. I remember when it started with self pity jealousy I felt almost flattered that she feared losing me, then when the accusation started getting aggressive and vile, I went from disbelief to dread then to this is driving me insane. It consumed all my time. I mean for 6 years I didnt even attend work christmas functions to avoid accusations and she would never let me do anything on my own outside of work. It was literally "Im going to see my friend today his feeling down", her response "Can I come?". I would then explain my friend just needs me and then she would accuse me of cheating and insist I stay on the phone to her the whole way and until I knock on the door she can hear his voice! Even then she would call me every 20min. I still for the life of me dont know why I accepted ALL of this!!!

My wife accused me of cheating from from time to time, thankfully this wasn't consistent and frequent, as I had isolated myself from friends and acquaintances outside of work, I did not give her much opportunity to make these outrageous accusations of infidelity.  However, this isolation, which took over a period of several year, the better part of a decade, is probably the worst aspect to me on how my wife's behaviors have negatively affected me.  This 'temporary paranoia' / 'disassociation' symptom is perhaps the more perplexing one that really drives home the nature of the illness.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, as I am still stuck), my wife has a good moral compass, and as far as I can tell has not cheated on me, I even looked from time to time.  However, other behaviors she has accused me of, that she is doing, this is called 'transference' where she transfers her bad behaviors, or more simply 'projection'
  

Good advice thank you. To be honest I thought if i causally date it may distract me, (I feel guilty even writing that) and if I was clear with them Im not leading anyone on. I actually have a date with her tonight (Valentines).

We have been talking for hours on end every day but last nights conversation was a bit of a shock. Now she had already asked me about my last relationship and all I said was ill tell her more about it once we get to know each other but its very recent and raw (she said she is ok with this and she is in the same boat).

Last night she spoke a lot about what she went through with her ex. I was in disbelief when she told me her ex was disordered and has bpd! I could tell she had anger about it still. It was in the context of explaining to me she will no longer put up with red flags from guys anymore. I then told her my ex was actually diagnosed and the 12 years was abusive.

We both agreed at this point to not talk about our exes but it I feel like Ive met someone with very similar flaws to me. We both agree that we take things slow and Im happy with that.

Dont get me wrong SD I loved the love bombing, I thought it was genuine for years. But I was never comfortable with it, my gut would scream at me. The fact is it was something Ive always yearned for which I never had previously. When I was younger I always saw girls who were so in love with their partners and wished I could have that as well. My exs previously were never like that so when I met my ex and she loved bomb me I thought "finally! so this is how it feels to be really wanted".

It made me ignore all the red flags and forgive her each time.

Congratulations on your date this evening, I hope that it goes well for you.  I would urge a bit of caution, especially as both of you have already revealed to each other that your respective Ex's both have BPD - this is a very big for both of you, and I suspect the temptation to talk excessively about his will be high - and if you do talk about BPD, oversharing is likely as both of you still have 'anger' about this issue.  Both of you are used to high intensity emotions with these types of relationships.  If channeled in a good direction, you can both have all of the positive aspects of a BPD relationship (the high intensity admiration which will very much feel like love bombing) without most of the more damaging negative aspects (the rages and being split black) - it is important to be extremely self-aware of every aspect of this relationship.  However, and this is a big 'however,' it also can be just as damaging as a BPD relationship, if each person has not worked on their own issues and things go badly - if I were you, I would definitely bring this up topic with your own therapist and proceed accordingly.

I think you and her agree to take things slowly, and I agree wholeheartedly with your intent.  Focus on your passions, your work, your hobbies, your life goals, and also take time to learn her passions, what kind of therapy work she does (exercise caution on this one if her therapist roll focuses on mental health; however, if it is other kinds of therapy, such as a voice/occupation/etc. type therapist, and then ask plenty of questions from a perspective of curiosity), her life goals, and whatever else she wants to talk about.  Since I suspect you might be out of practice, you can google, things to talk about on dates.

Take care.

SD

P.S.  I'm thinking of splitting off the next topic of codependent patterns into a separate thread, as it will likely generate some interest; however, I will discuss, what you have highlighted about yourself in my next post here on this thread with a link to a new thread about my codependent/caretaker patterns.  I am still thinking about how I would like to approach this, but I will definitely post about it by tomorrow.  In the meantime, once removed has made some great observations on the codependent patterns and characteristics that you have identified in yourself.

[Brokenmind]

Hi Once Removed

Thank you again

it really depends on what you mean by "all i do is talk about my ex".

What I mean is the first 3/4 sessions it was all about my ex and what happened and how it ended. Which is understandable. But I thought now my therapist knows the "story" and how I feel I felt we would start talking about how I move forward than continually dwell on my ex.

I did tell that I would like to talk about my childhood where I think my issues stem from so I made it clear what I want; but she kind of batted that aside and said we will get to that in later sessions and we carry on talking about my ex with her agreeing how bad it was.

but i still have those tendencies and anxieties. they are fairly ingrained (things that are ingrained can improve with practice). the difference is that i can see how they were impacting me, and im better equipped to switch gears. people with codependent tendencies, while we can be highly in tune with ourselves about lots of things, we dont tend to have the most objective view of ourselves, or how others see us. so much of recovery is about growing and maturing in that regard; learning, not only that better choices exist, but learning how to make them.

I can see that its very ingrained in myself and admit that its only now I see how its impacted me. I just feel ridiculous that Ive only just seen it at aged 46. For me I was always surrounded by a supportive family, friends and had stable relationships with people who didnt take advantage of these traits (and put up with them too).

It was only aged 34 when i met my ex that my life just unravelled. What gets me down is how much my gut and instincts were screaming at me and even when the abuse got really bad how I get doubling down and lost myself.

I will take your advice and make it clear to my T. I was actually thinking of sending an email to her prior to the next session as I find I can articulate what I want better. For example the sessions always starts with me being asked "so how have you been feeling since we last spoke". Obviously with all my emotions I go into a monologue of how I felt or if anything has happened (like a phone call from my ex cousin) this inevitably  leads to talking about past events with my ex and then she empathises and compares her own experiences and then it ends, so I feel like i get swept up into the narrative of my past rather than talking about coping mechanisms.

[Brokenmind]

Hey SD

If she has a BPDx, yes, she has personal (peer) experience in these matters which may not effectively translate well into what you should do for yourself. 

This is kind of my feeling too SD.

Stopping the ruminating... I can share is extremely difficult, if not impossible to do; however, the best thing I have personally found is to find distractions

Its so hard to not have that thought pop in your head. Also it doesn't help that I keep wanting to look at the youtube channel to see if what she is commenting to him. I hate it because it makes me feel emotional and insecure.

My son would recognize his tantrum and was remorseful and apologized for it; whereas, my wife thought she was right, and there was nothing to apologize for, no matter how wrong she might have been.

Thats a good sign that he is remorseful, something her son unfortunately hasnt learnt.

This 'temporary paranoia' / 'disassociation' symptom is perhaps the more perplexing one that really drives home the nature of the illness.

This is what I never understood, my ex paranoia was daily. Thats not an exaggeration, it was at least 3 texts a day where she would accuse me of cheating and at least a handful of suicidal threats per week.

I always excused it as, I have a high end job and work with females who, in her opinion, have more "value" than her; so with her being unemployed and uneducated she felt insecure.

Congratulations on your date this evening, I hope that it goes well for you.  I would urge a bit of caution, especially as both of you have already revealed to each other that your respective Ex's both have BPD - this is a very big for both of you, and I suspect the temptation to talk excessively about his will be high - and if you do talk about BPD, oversharing is likely as both of you still have 'anger' about this issue.  Both of you are used to high intensity emotions with these types of relationships.  If channeled in a good direction, you can both have all of the positive aspects of a BPD relationship (the high intensity admiration which will very much feel like love bombing) without most of the more damaging negative aspects (the rages and being split black) - it is important to be extremely self-aware of every aspect of this relationship.  However, and this is a big 'however,' it also can be just as damaging as a BPD relationship, if each person has not worked on their own issues and things go badly - if I were you, I would definitely bring this up topic with your own therapist and proceed accordingly.

I can share with you how it went (and also how good you are in your analysis)

I booked a nice restaurant in central London and we met. I was very nervous as its my first date in over a decade.

She is very easy to talk to and we spoke about a varied number of topics. She is like me in that she avoids conflicts and tend to people please so we both kind of laughed at this. There was a slight bit of love bombing element to it from both her and me and some oversharing which I didnt mind. We both have a very similar childhood upbringing

Then she did start talking about her ex. She did say sorry for bringing him up again which i told her its understandable. Then she got a bit angry when talking about him. She had  shame that given her qualification she fell for the manipulation and didnt see she was in trauma bonded relationship. So like me there is still anger and most likely feelings for him still.

I didnt reply with my own examples (although i wanted to) and she picked up on that and said she wont bring him up again. Aside from that we spoke a lot and I found myself smiling home.

It just felt nice to go out for a meal and not get into a big argument where we cut the night short after causing a scene.


Also by the way she is forensic psychiatrist, so I can send her your brothers way if you like .

P.S.  I'm thinking of splitting off the next topic of codependent patterns into a separate thread, as it will likely generate some interest; however, I will discuss, what you have highlighted about yourself in my next post here on this thread with a link to a new thread about my codependent/caretaker patterns.  I am still thinking about how I would like to approach this, but I will definitely post about it by tomorrow.  In the meantime, once removed has made some great observations on the codependent patterns and characteristics that you have identified in yourself.

Please do, unless something happens I will cut down on posting on this thread as I think its long enough!! I do want to contribute on other threads as well, I feel, although not as versed as you that my experiences can help others on here. Im apprehensive about giving advice but I can empathise with them.

[SaltyDawg]

BM

This is kind of my feeling too SD.

Regarding your T, you can ask her if she has a timetable on what you want to do, and reiterate what would like to do 1., 2., 3. first.  If she disagrees, ask for a brief explanation why she thinks this is not a good idea.  My current T will work as fast or as slow as I want.  I can cover an enormous amount of material with a counseling style called "motivational interviewing" - while most do not do well with this style, and therapists use it only if their client is emotionally strong enough to tolerate it, as it is a lot less sympathetic than more traditional styles.  This style would be closer to the 'fitness trainer' method that you expressed in a previous post than other styles.

Its so hard to not have that thought pop in your head. Also it doesn't help that I keep wanting to look at the youtube channel to see if what she is commenting to him. I hate it because it makes me feel emotional and insecure.

It sounds like you are a 'glutton for punishment' - the only purpose watching these videos will serve is a bad reminder of her true nature - if you do watch (I don't recommend) it will only make you more upset than you already are.  I would suggest only to watch these videos if and when you decide to fall for a recycle / H00VER attempt with her as a nasty reminder of her true nature.

Thats a good sign that he is remorseful, something her son unfortunately hasnt learnt.

I too am glad my son is remorseful and apologetic when he has his own anger episodes.  These episodes have come less and less - I am hoping he will just 'grow out of it' as he is at an age where that can happen and is still pre-pubescent (late bloomer).  However, if and when her son enters your orbit, you may not be so lucky, and individual therapy for him, on a weekly basis until his behaviours become normalized would be recommended.

This is what I never understood, my ex paranoia was daily. Thats not an exaggeration, it was at least 3 texts a day where she would accuse me of cheating and at least a handful of suicidal threats per week.

A previous dBPD-Therapist confided in me she would do the divorce threats almost on a weekly basis to her husband and have the cheating allegations 2-3 times per week, some of which were founded, as she would show me FB posts (where her H would compliment another woman) and a nasty e-mail from a lady that her husband was hitting on and asking her to make it stop.  Mine would only do it if she was really stressed.  Each borderline is different; however, whatever pattern they initially display, will give you a pretty good indication of how it will continue, it will not change much unless there is therapeutic intervention and/or major changes in their stress level from any source.

However, I am curious as to how her suicidal threats on a weekly basis would manifest?  Mine were only when she would hold a 10" (25 cm) kitchen knife to her wrists, or a pair of 12" (33cm) old-school scissors fashioned as a dagger against her chest, or try to swallow her heart medication pills, but these were few and far between 6 in the span of two decades.  Each time she did this, I grabbed the instrument of death and removed them from her hands, and she more often than not complained, "you are not supposed to behave that way". 

I always excused it as, I have a high end job and work with females who, in her opinion, have more "value" than her; so with her being unemployed and uneducated she felt insecure.

You know her best, her anxieties likely were a result from those stressors.  BTW, my wife is also an accountant like you, and well educated, just as you mentioned earlier, but unlike your gf, in her profession my wife was/is secure, it was just with her emotional state in relation to me is where she felt insecure.  She says I am her very first boyfriend, even when I asked her that question yesterday when it casually came up in conversation while we were talking about our daughter's boyfriend valentines date where I comment the first will always have a special place in her heart, as the boys grandmother indicated she was the first of many more to come.

Speaking of dates...

I can share with you how it went (and also how good you are in your analysis)

I booked a nice restaurant in central London and we met. I was very nervous as its my first date in over a decade.

She is very easy to talk to and we spoke about a varied number of topics. She is like me in that she avoids conflicts and tend to people please so we both kind of laughed at this. There was a slight bit of love bombing element to it from both her and me and some oversharing which I didnt mind. We both have a very similar childhood upbringing

A little bit of love bombing at this stage is not a red or yellow flag at all, as you are trying to impress each other.  Much like a speed limit, if it is within a certain limit, it is okay; however, when it exceeds the limit to the point of being reckless (an extreme example would be being seduced sexually on the first date for example, which happened to me on each of my first dates with borderlines, one was a blowjob in a parking lot, and the other was having a very hot, hot tub experience).

Then she did start talking about her ex. She did say sorry for bringing him up again which i told her its understandable. Then she got a bit angry when talking about him. She had shame that given her qualification she fell for the manipulation and didnt see she was in trauma bonded relationship. So like me there is still anger and most likely feelings for him still.

You and her will always have strong feelings your respective ex partners as those relationships are very intense in nature, even as time moves on - the more appropriate question is which relationship dominates your thoughts, the new love interest, or the ex?  Does ruminations on the ex get [too much] in the way of the new relationship?  Since both of you are in the 'same/similar boat', you will like have discussions on this.  Be emotionally supportive and validate her feelings, but do not be her therapist, likewise do not let her be your therapist - there is a fine line between being supportive and being a therapist in this.  Your respective exes should not be the primary focus of your dates.

I can very easily see how she has shame about being manipulated in this manner, just like you do, and I do as well.  The borderline has a natural survival instinct of being manipulative that they learned from an early age (typically before 5 yo) on how to get their way to the point that they are not even aware they are doing it (in the case of my wife, not so sure about the exgf though).

I didnt reply with my own examples (although i wanted to) and she picked up on that and said she wont bring him up again. Aside from that we spoke a lot and I found myself smiling home.

It just felt nice to go out for a meal and not get into a big argument where we cut the night short after causing a scene.

I'm glad that you didn't ruminate on your ex especially as she is trained in the field - you probably made a good impression you are well on your way of getting over your ex (even though you might not be as far as she thinks).  You definitely don't want to 'burden' them with your ex, talk to your therapist on how to best proceed on this.

It sounds like you had a very nice evening.  How did that smile feel?  I can imagine that it felt quite alien, but in a very nice kind of way, perhaps like a nice warm fuzzy hug.

Also by the way she is forensic psychiatrist, so I can send her your brothers way if you like .

I would like to distance myself from my step-brother serial killer as we are NC.  There is no biological relation, and I did not grow up with him, and met him around 30 yo.  psychologytoday.com has labelled him as a sociopath and possible psychopath, the closest we got was that he was a member of my wedding party.  The freakiest and most off putting part of him, is that he had a perpetual smile and joyful tone, like a giddy school kid, in his voice no matter the circumstance, if it was the birth of his child, or if he was facing the death penalty in court - it was the continuously identical behavioural pattern leading me to personally believe he was more psychopath than sociopath as he could not change what he was emoting based on changing circumstances which should have shifted his behavioural pattern at least somewhat if he were a sociopath.  I am still trying to figure out the FOO side for what may have caused him to be this way.

I had a family emergency, so I was not able to respond sooner; however, I will endeavor to respond to the codependent patterns later on today.

Take care.  Good luck.  It is okay to wind down the frequency of your responses, but do check in after your next therapy session, as I am interested in how that may have gone for you.  If your new lady friend is curious about my step brother, send me a PM, and I will send you many links, he does not share a surname, so I will remain anonymous.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

BM,

   I did a follow-up on the list of codependent traits/patterns at:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357723.new#new

It has the following title:  "Codependent/Caretaking patterns that ensnare us in a BPD relationship"

SD

[Brokenmind]

Hey SD

Apologies I haven't had a chance to reply for a few days some new developments happened which Ill explain after I reply to your post.

It sounds like you are a 'glutton for punishment' - I would suggest only to watch these videos if and when you decide to fall for a recycle / H00VER attempt with her as a nasty reminder of her true nature.

Which is me in a nut shell. I would never fall for her again SD theres no question of that, for me I need to just stop. Its not healthy and the only reason i do is not honourable as Im looking and hoping to see cracks in their relationship. I think its to assure myself that she was not just like this with me (therefore my fault). Its a stupid way of thinking and I need to stop.

However, I am curious as to how her suicidal threats on a weekly basis would manifest?

Your experience sounds a lot less than my ex.

My ex had three types of suicidal threats. First would be the benign one, not a threat as such but just a proclamation. If something small went wrong she would say "I wish I was dead" or "Im going to kill myself". Or she would say things like "If you cheat on my I will kill you and then kill myself you know" All said in a throw away comment kind of way. This was daily and all multiple times a day. This I could handle.

The second would be the texting threats. So Im at work, she sends me a funny text. I dont respond because well, Im at work.. So she will call. I miss that call. Then I get a nasty text accusing me of sleeping with someone at work and to see what she is going to in revenge. Then its the suicidal threat. So in bold capital: "YOU NEVER LOVED ME! WHEN YOU COME BACK HOME TONIGHT (Sons name) WILL BE AY MY COUSINS AND ILL BE DEAD! BYE!

I would come to my phone to these three texts and you can imagine how i felt. Sometimes Ill be lucky and see the first one and respond but my work has a lot of meetings and I couldnt have my phone next to me all the time.

Other times would be if she ran out of weed and couldnt find any. (In London it is illegal and can be hard to come by). She would call or text threatening suicide as she is "going crazy" without.

These texts/calls would happen 3-4 times a week.

The third would be during a meltdown or major argument. So we are arguing, Im no longer holding back, and it gets really heated, I go to leave to get some space. She would think im never coming back for some reason and then hold a knife to her stomach threatening suicide if I leave the house.

Other times she would pull her hair out (sometimes literally) and kick/punch the walls or even her own head. Almost like a childs tantrum only with violence,

This would be rare but over a single year perhaps 3-4 times?

Reading this back is really freaking me out, what the hell was I thinking!!


 

BTW, my wife is also an accountant like you, and well educated, just as you mentioned earlier, but unlike your gf, in her profession my wife was/is secure, it was just with her emotional state in relation to me is where she felt insecure. 

Thats the complete opposite to my ex SD. I wish my ex worked or was secure. It sounds like with your wife her biggest trait is the fear of abandonment which manifests onto you. Can I ask SD does it feel like sometimes she expects you to love her almost like a parent would and also treats you like a parent when she thinks you let her down? This is the feeling I had with my ex and was wondering if it was the same for you

A little bit of love bombing at this stage is not a red or yellow flag at all, as you are trying to impress each other.  Much like a speed limit, if it is within a certain limit, it is okay; however, when it exceeds the limit to the point of being reckless (an extreme example would be being seduced sexually on the first date for example, which happened to me on each of my first dates with borderlines, one was a blowjob in a parking lot, and the other was having a very hot, hot tub experience).

The date went really well SD. The love bombing is not extreme  and I think is there as we are both really giving people who like to please others. So it almost feels like I can trust her not to hurt me as she is similar to me. We have seen each other twice since so thats everyday now but we haven't had sex or anything else like that. Which to me is a breath of fresh air. With my ex that's all she knew what to offer. With this girl I'm having flirty conversations and laughing and just really getting on.

Dont get me wrong sex with my ex was great and almost porn like but looking back now it was just lustful and I dont think I ever "made love" to my ex it was always more about the actual act of sex than connecting in love.

You and her will always have strong feelings your respective ex partners as those relationships are very intense in nature, even as time moves on - the more appropriate question is which relationship dominates your thoughts, the new love interest, or the ex? Your respective exes should not be the primary focus of your dates.

Since I started dating I have to admit my thoughts are not more dominated by this new interest but I would say my thoughts are LESS dominated by my ex.

I think she has more of a problem with it than me. As she has quite a few times veered the topic back onto her ex. She apologises and does say afterwards she is sorry for bringing him up but that he was a big part of her life so a lot of her memories are of him. I get it and I told her that but ive resisted more than her plus I dont go into any details unlike her. Hopefully she wont feel the need to if the relationship continues.

How did that smile feel?  I can imagine that it felt quite alien, but in a very nice kind of way, perhaps like a nice warm fuzzy hug.

It actually did SD. I went home that night I think kind of feeling like the old me before I met my ex (I say think as its been 12 years). It did feel alien in the sense I had that nice feeling of being wanted but with none of the alarm bells ringing.

I had a family emergency, so I was not able to respond sooner

I hope nothing serious SD, (if you need to talk or anything I can do PM me)

Take care.  Good luck.  It is okay to wind down the frequency of your responses, but do check in after your next therapy session, as I am interested in how that may have gone for you.  If your new lady friend is curious about my step brother, send me a PM, and I will send you many links, he does not share a surname, so I will remain anonymous.

Thank you SD, I wont stop writing on here even when I start feeling over her. This site and you in particular has practically saved me from falling so I will always be grateful. Plus same to you SD , if you ever need me PM me and we can go from there.

Haha Ill ask if she wants that link


Ok so now SD Im going to tell you what happened yesterday as I got a text from her son,

[Brokenmind]

I got a text from an unknow number.

Its from her son who stated "Mum told me ive been actually allowed to text you this whole time so that great"

I said great that Ive missed him and love him so much and how he has been doing.

He replied that hes not great. That his Mum is still screaming at him everyday. I told him im sorry thats happening and I could never help her stop doing that when we were together. He said I wasnt around for 2 years and thats why Mum was mad at me but he doesnt blame me because of the way she is.

He then said "Ive just realised how much bad she has done, especially to you"

I then asked if hes Mum would ever let me meet him maybe to go lunch. He said no then said "but look, dont say anything to Mum but her relationship is not going very well. Hes narcissistic  and has made her cry multiple times and it will end between them soon. He said in her words that "he gets very angry and feels it could lead to violence and he talks to other women and is a narcissistic pr@ck and how she knew she made a mistake" then in the next breath she would say how much she loves him and wants to marry him"

I told him that it upsets me to hear that he is abusive as I still care about his mum as we were together so long.

He then said that he needs to ask me something. He asked "if it came down to her relationship ending and she gave me another chance  would I give her another chance"

At this point I started getting paranoid thinking is this her telling him to say this,

I replied with that I loved his Mum for 12 years but a lot has happened but I do still care about his Mum just not like I used to. I then asked him if he would want that to happen.

He replied of course he would and that its either me or nothing as he wont ever see anyone else like his Dad again.

He then had to go and we ended it with a promise to text me again tomorrow.

So; any thoughts????

[SaltyDawg]

BrokenMind,

   I am going to focus on your adopted son post first, as that one requires more immediate attention.

I got a text from an unknow number.

Its from her son who stated "Mum told me ive been actually allowed to text you this whole time so that great"

   Make a note of the number, add the 'unknown' number to your contacts as her son.  If you are concerned about his mum feeding him information, instead of texting, since you are both 'apple' do 'facetime', first of all it will be more like a face to face conversation with him, and secondly, you can pay attention to the background for 'clues' to if his mum is feeding him information to tell you in real time, it will also give you an indication if he is at his nan's place or his mum's place to give you an indication of the level of privacy you might have with him.

I said great that Ive missed him and love him so much and how he has been doing.

He replied that hes not great. That his Mum is still screaming at him everyday. I told him im sorry thats happening and I could never help her stop doing that when we were together. He said I wasnt around for 2 years and thats why Mum was mad at me but he doesnt blame me because of the way she is.

He then said "Ive just realised how much bad she has done, especially to you"

His mum is screaming at him, before doing this talk it over with your own individual therapist; however, I would suggest to start sharing tools with him on how to pushback against his mum in gentle, but effective ways to encourage his mum to stop yelling at him and mistreating him.

If he has a kindle account, https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stop-Caretaking-Borderline-Narcissist-Drama-ebook/dp/B00B60DRKI/, buy him this book.  I would suggest sending him the link of https://margalistherapy.com/articles/borderline-and-narcissism-issues/handbook-for-dealing-with-a-bp-np/ which are the core principles of this book once you verify that his mum does not go through his phone, and after a facetime, as you do not want to inflame his mum any more than what has been done.

He also has shown a great bit of self-awareness on how his mum has treated you, and does not hold you accountable for the way she is, and he may have processed why you weren't around for 2 years.  Whenever he mentions this, gently reaffirm that it was not your choice not to be there for him and you wanted to have a relationship with him.  As you don't want to disparage his mum too much, I would urge caution before assigning blame directly to his mum on why you were not there for two years.

I then asked if hes Mum would ever let me meet him maybe to go lunch. He said no then said "but look, dont say anything to Mum but her relationship is not going very well. Hes narcissistic  and has made her cry multiple times and it will end between them soon. He said in her words that "he gets very angry and feels it could lead to violence and he talks to other women and is a narcissistic pr@ck and how she knew she made a mistake" then in the next breath she would say how much she loves him and wants to marry him"

I told him that it upsets me to hear that he is abusive as I still care about his mum as we were together so long.

It sounds like he is being parentified and he IS his mom's confidante or even therapist in this matter.  Anything you share with him, there is a good chance he may share with her, and vice versa.  The potential violent aspect of the sasquatch hunter is a new dynamic not previously known about him. 

He then said that he needs to ask me something. He asked "if it came down to her relationship ending and she gave me another chance would I give her another chance"

At this point I started getting paranoid thinking is this her telling him to say this,

I replied with that I loved his Mum for 12 years but a lot has happened but I do still care about his Mum just not like I used to. I then asked him if he would want that to happen.

He replied of course he would and that its either me or nothing as he wont ever see anyone else like his Dad again.

He then had to go and we ended it with a promise to text me again tomorrow.

So; any thoughts????

A lot of thoughts.  He definitely wants you do be a father figure to him.  He is likely his mum's confidante, so whatever you share with him, there is a good chance he will share with his mum as well, so keep your guard up on what you do and do not share with him until you firmly re-establish a relationship with him and can accurately measure what he does and does not share with her.  Any piece of information that you don't want shared after verifying that his mum is not looking at his phone (on facetime ideally) ask him not to share with his mum, much like he asked you not to share the information about the hunter that he shared with you.

I think your answer is an excellent one.  If I were you, I would loop your therapist into the matter, and get her opinion on it too.

Now I am going to ask you a some very direct questions, BM, what do you want?  Do you want to have a relationship with the forensic psychologist?  OR (not AND), do you want to have one with the sasquatch hunter's part-time lover?  From your perspective, the relationship being over is 'fresh' although from the sound of things it could have been over for as long as two years.

I am curious if you have follow-on date(s) lined up with the new girl you just saw a few days ago?  I'm asking as I would like to estimate how emotionally vulnerable you might be.  If you are not going to see her again, this makes you much more vulnerable to a recycle attempt and would require a different approach.

In any event, I suspect you will be asked this question again, as you did not directly answer him with a clear yes or no answer.  For now, leave it open ended (as this will encourage communication with him), until you can re-establish a good relationship with him, and then slowly give him pieces of information that you want him to have.  I know you have considered having him move in with you when he turns 16 - I wouldn't directly bring up this topic immediately, or you could frame it in a manner like "If your mum continues to yell at you, and you feel unsafe, when you are old enough, ..." [don't mention an age] "..., you could possibly live with me, only if you are interested.  What are your thoughts on this?"  This way you can get an accurate feeling on if he is thinking this way, and if he isn't, you planted a 'seed' that would eventually make this a possibility.  If he knows that he has options it could embolden to do more self-care for himself.

Do continue to interact with him, work to re-establishing the father/son dynamic, and move forward from there.

As always, do self-care & take care.

SD

P.S.  I ran out of time today, I will type more tomorrow, as I am still dealing with FIL issue, today he has an operation, and I need to be there for my wife.













[/quote]

[SaltyDawg]

Apologies I haven't had a chance to reply for a few days some new developments happened which Ill explain after I reply to your post.

No worries, I am a bit preoccupied myself, so I have flipped the responses around.

Which is me in a nut shell. I would never fall for her again SD theres no question of that, for me I need to just stop. Its not healthy and the only reason i do is not honourable as Im looking and hoping to see cracks in their relationship. I think its to assure myself that she was not just like this with me (therefore my fault). Its a stupid way of thinking and I need to stop.

This is not a stupid way of thinking.  You want to reassure yourself, that you are not the messed up one, that is just human nature.  Now that you know the back story on the sasquatch hunter, this should give you more distance.

Your experience sounds a lot less than my ex.

With my current wife, agreed; however, my exgf is a lot more conventional, and is more comparable to your exgf - my wife is not my first romantic BPD relationship.

My ex had three types of suicidal threats. First would be the benign one, not a threat as such but just a proclamation. If something small went wrong she would say "I wish I was dead" or "Im going to kill myself". Or she would say things like "If you cheat on my I will kill you and then kill myself you know" All said in a throw away comment kind of way. This was daily and all multiple times a day. This I could handle.

The second would be the texting threats. So Im at work, she sends me a funny text. I dont respond because well, Im at work.. So she will call. I miss that call. Then I get a nasty text accusing me of sleeping with someone at work and to see what she is going to in revenge. Then its the suicidal threat. So in bold capital: "YOU NEVER LOVED ME! WHEN YOU COME BACK HOME TONIGHT (Sons name) WILL BE AY MY COUSINS AND ILL BE DEAD! BYE!

I would come to my phone to these three texts and you can imagine how i felt. Sometimes Ill be lucky and see the first one and respond but my work has a lot of meetings and I couldnt have my phone next to me all the time.

Other times would be if she ran out of weed and couldnt find any. (In London it is illegal and can be hard to come by). She would call or text threatening suicide as she is "going crazy" without.

These texts/calls would happen 3-4 times a week.

What you described above is suicidal ideation, in each of these variants and I do not believe rise to the level of being disordered; however....

The third would be during a meltdown or major argument. So we are arguing, Im no longer holding back, and it gets really heated, I go to leave to get some space. She would think im never coming back for some reason and then hold a knife to her stomach threatening suicide if I leave the house.

.... This on the other hand is a suicidal 'gesture' and I feel that this rises to the level of the described symptom in a disordered way.

Other times she would pull her hair out (sometimes literally) and kick/punch the walls or even her own head. Almost like a childs tantrum only with violence,

This would be rare but over a single year perhaps 3-4 times?

Reading this back is really freaking me out, what the hell was I thinking!!

Same here with the suicidal thinking, only a bit less, like once or twice per year instead of your 3-4 times per year.  I did not count her ideation.  And, yes, it did freak me out, once I saw the symptom in writing.

Thats the complete opposite to my ex SD. I wish my ex worked or was secure. It sounds like with your wife her biggest trait is the fear of abandonment which manifests onto you.

My wife's comorbid OCPD makes her a good hard worker, that follows the rules when she is regulated, she is also incredibly smart too, so she doesn't think she is like a traditional borderline.

Most borderlines have at their core, is a fear of abandonment, I also have a fear of abandonment, although at a much lower level than she does.  I had this before I had any romantic relationships due to childhood trauma so I would not characterise it as being manifested onto me.  However, I do not let it rule me, and even my wife's most recent attempt at separation/divorce had no effect on me in essence nullifying my response, which in turn caused her to stop making these threats.

Can I ask SD does it feel like sometimes she expects you to love her almost like a parent would and also treats you like a parent when she thinks you let her down? This is the feeling I had with my ex and was wondering if it was the same for you

Yes, you can ask.  Both borderlines expected me to treat them like a child at times as though I was a parent; however, if and when I do so, and if they realize it, they hate it, and got mad.  My wife will go one step further, and treat me like the child and her the parent.

The date went really well SD. The love bombing is not extreme  and I think is there as we are both really giving people who like to please others. So it almost feels like I can trust her not to hurt me as she is similar to me. We have seen each other twice since so thats everyday now but we haven't had sex or anything else like that. Which to me is a breath of fresh air. With my ex that's all she knew what to offer. With this girl I'm having flirty conversations and laughing and just really getting on.

I am very happy for you, and a bit envious as well - so far it sounds healthy.

Dont get me wrong sex with my ex was great and almost porn like but looking back now it was just lustful and I dont think I ever "made love" to my ex it was always more about the actual act of sex than connecting in love.

The exgf was into some kinky stuff.  My wife, not so much, but there were some issues there too.

Since I started dating I have to admit my thoughts are not more dominated by this new interest but I would say my thoughts are LESS dominated by my ex.

I personally think that this is a healthy mindset as well.

I think she has more of a problem with it than me. As she has quite a few times veered the topic back onto her ex. She apologises and does say afterwards she is sorry for bringing him up but that he was a big part of her life so a lot of her memories are of him. I get it and I told her that but ive resisted more than her plus I dont go into any details unlike her. Hopefully she wont feel the need to if the relationship continues.

I personally think your mindset on this is healthy as well.  However, do pay attention how she describes her ex to you - if he is someone who unintentionally hurt her, or if he was a monster who could do no good which could be a  or flag.

It actually did SD. I went home that night I think kind of feeling like the old me before I met my ex (I say think as its been 12 years). It did feel alien in the sense I had that nice feeling of being wanted but with none of the alarm bells ringing.

This also sounds good as well.

I hope nothing serious SD, (if you need to talk or anything I can do PM me)

FIL is still in hospital, my wife is doing a great job of holding her emotions together, I will elaborate a bit more when the crisis is over.

Haha Ill ask if she wants that link

lmk

Take care.  I will write more about codependence soon, right now it is on my backburner.

SD

[Brokenmind]

Hello SD

Apologies again for the non reply for the last 6 days a few things happened and I kind of isolated myself by taking a week off. Ill get back to you regarding your replies which again I cannot thank you enough and tell you what happened this last week.

Make a note of the number, add the 'unknown' number to your contacts as her son. 

If you are concerned about his mum feeding him information, instead of texting, since you are both 'apple' do 'facetime', first of all it will be more like a face to face conversation with him.

I did this straight away and saved him as a contact but he cannot do facetime.

Her son wasnt that clear when he said his Mum told him he can have contact and he admitted that she doesnt know and would go mad if she knew. This threw me completely as technically Im now communicating with a 15 year old without his parents consent. I told him that he should of told me as this could make this messy. I told him that I would need to text his Mum again asking for permission to speak to him and have a relationship with him. I havent as yet text her and I last communicated with him on Thursday so its been 4 days now. He did say that he has been deleting the texts on his end in case his Mum sees it,

What are your thought on this? I too thought that his Mum would be pouring over my texts to him so Im not sure if she does know and this is a further layer or (and I think this is more likely), that she doesnt know.

Whenever he mentions this, gently reaffirm that it was not your choice not to be there for him and you wanted to have a relationship with him.  As you don't want to disparage his mum too much, I would urge caution before assigning blame directly to his mum on why you were not there for two years.

Thanks SD thats exactly what I did. I answered his question truthfully and he does understand it  and I told him that I will listen to what he has to say about his Mum but all I want is to be there for him.

Now I am going to ask you a some very direct questions, BM, what do you want?  Do you want to have a relationship with the forensic psychologist?  OR (not AND), do you want to have one with the sasquatch hunter's part-time lover?  From your perspective, the relationship being over is 'fresh' although from the sound of things it could have been over for as long as two years.

I want to have a relationship with the psychologist. I would never get back with my ex in any shape or form. Im still hurt by the events, Im still healing from it and therefore my ex still evokes powerful emotions in me, but these emotions are negative and there is no desire for her anymore.

It is fresh because for 2 years the relationship was dying, I gave her the ultimatum to go therapy and stopped trying to fix it so it got worse and worse. I just provided financial support to her and only really talked about her son and just argued all the time about our relationship. But I had hope that she would eventually see that Im not willing to budge until she committed to therapy. So when the break up happened due to me finding out about this guy it hurt as I did have that hope we would stay together and somehow get back to having that passion for each other. Now that I know about how she betrayed me with money etc and all her lies being confirmed over 12 years I cant see her that way ever again.

I am curious if you have follow-on date(s) lined up with the new girl you just saw a few days ago?  I'm asking as I would like to estimate how emotionally vulnerable you might be.  If you are not going to see her again, this makes you much more vulnerable to a recycle attempt and would require a different approach.

Its going really well, we had a follow up date but she and I were busy with work to see each other more but whats been really nice is that we get on really well. We have spoken everyday and our conversations last for hours on end.

Now this is where Im getting a little freaked out. So she does talk about her ex a lot. Which I dont mind as he was (she suspects) BPD and was abusive. In fact all her exs have been abusive.

That part threw me a bit and leads on to....

...Secondly she does love bomb a bit, by saying how nice and caring Iam and she needs to get used to all this and she admitted that since her ex she does feel like she picked up some of his "borderline fleas" as she put it. I see the oversharing straight away as a flea as she has pretty much told me her entire childhood history (how she never felt seen by her family) as well as her 4 abusive exs in detail. But she is not emotional when she talks about them and I feel like she recognises it and deals with it well.

Thirdly, myself. I feel like Im really attaching to her myself. I enjoy listening to her and get that exciting feeling when i receive a text from her but this makes me feel vulnerable again and its not something I like feeling. Also I feel we share very similar traits in that we can both be easily taken advantage of so it feels good that I dont have that fear with her as she has been through the same.

In any event, I suspect you will be asked this question again, as you did not directly answer him with a clear yes or no answer.  For now, leave it open ended (as this will encourage communication with him), until you can re-establish a good relationship with him, and then slowly give him pieces of information that you want him to have.  I know you have considered having him move in with you when he turns 16 - I wouldn't directly bring up this topic immediately, or you could frame it in a manner like "If your mum continues to yell at you, and you feel unsafe, when you are old enough, ..." [don't mention an age] "..., you could possibly live with me, only if you are interested.  What are your thoughts on this?"  This way you can get an accurate feeling on if he is thinking this way, and if he isn't, you planted a 'seed' that would eventually make this a possibility.  If he knows that he has options it could embolden to do more self-care for himself.

Thank you I haver since communicated this to him. I told him right now my concerns are his schooling as he is reaching the year where his exams affect his next move after school. And the fact that no matter what he has me as an option to live with me and I can provide a safe and secure environment. Regarding his Mother I wasnt totally honest and left it open ended on purpose until I establish a stronger relationship with him

FIL is still in hospital, my wife is doing a great job of holding her emotions together, I will elaborate a bit more when the crisis is over.

Im sorry to hear that SD I hope all is well and the operation went smoothly. PM me if you need to talk or need any kind of support from me mate.

Now Im going to share the events of the last week. So he last text i got from her son was Thursday.

He shared that his Mum wants him to start working at the local coffee shop for work experience. He got into a heated argument with her as he wants to catch up with his missed lessons.

I agreed with him that school is more important especially as he is behind. Then he admitted to me that for the last 18 months he hasnt done a single thing! In other words for the last 2 years where she took him out of school and decided to home school him she was lying to me about how well they were doing and in fact he didnt do a SINGLE lesson at home. So he basically has had NO schooling for under 2 years.

I was fuming and angry and this is illegal as well. Her son even told me she may go to court over this as well. I wanted to call her straight away but obviously i dont know all this and she doesnt even know im talking to her son...

I told him I will pay for private tutoring whatever it took to help him catch up. But I would need to speak to him mum. So we agreed I send her a text just asking for contact again.

He again reiterated how badly his Mum relationship is going with this guy and how she genuinely feared he would hit her and  i responded that all I care about is him but it saddens me to hear she is in that situation.

Then he went into some elaborate plan. He said that "once this relationship ends and his mum feels the harsh break up I will plant seeds in her head so she thinks of you in a "good way". Then that thought can grow and then you never know. In other words I might pull off the biggest wingman move in history "

I told him to stop thinking like this. That I loved his Mum but the relationship was toxic and that I also take responsibility for that. I tried my hardest to be with her and I dont regret the relationship as I had the honour of raising him and that I love him and that wont ever change.

I said that right now all I want is to be able to communicate with his Mum in order to have a relationship with him that is it.

Again sorry for the late replies SD, I should be back on daily now and I hope everything is ok on your end.



















[/quote]

[once removed]

...Secondly she does love bomb a bit, by saying how nice and caring Iam and she needs to get used to all this and she admitted that since her ex she does feel like she picked up some of his "borderline fleas" as she put it. I see the oversharing straight away as a flea

there are no such things as "fleas". its an urban legend  

mental illness is not contagious, and cannot be "caught". if you spend a month in a mental institution, you will not develop mental illness.

what shes telling you is she has baggage she hasnt dealt with, left over from the last relationship, and the previous ones. its nothing to be afraid of, but it suggests a person thats emotionally unavailable for a fulfilling, sustainable, and healthy relationship.

Thirdly, myself. I feel like Im really attaching to her myself. I enjoy listening to her and get that exciting feeling when i receive a text from her but this makes me feel vulnerable again and its not something I like feeling. Also I feel we share very similar traits in that we can both be easily taken advantage of so it feels good that I dont have that fear with her as she has been through the same.

the fact is, you are both carrying baggage, which is understandable; you are fresh out of a traumatic relationship that you havent completely grieved.

the problem? youre both emotionally injured people, bonding over your wounds. that can work great in a lot of contexts, like say a support group. not so much as a foundation for a romantic relationship; its how a lot of us found ourselves here, or how a lot of us coped after the breakup. it can feel great at first, but when the relationship moves beyond those initial stages, it can get messy.

[Brokenmind]

Thanks for the reply Once Removed. I do hope SD is doing ok as I note he hasn’t been on for a while.

there are no such things as "fleas". its an urban legend 
what shes telling you is she has baggage she hasnt dealt with, left over from the last relationship, and the previous ones. its nothing to be afraid of, but it suggests a person thats emotionally unavailable for a fulfilling, sustainable, and healthy relationship.

I thought as much I’ve only ever heard it called fleas and I ha tee to generalise. This is what worries me slightly. She is a qualified forensic Psychologist so I found it strange she would use terms like this nor recognise what she is doing in this respect .
.

the problem? youre both emotionally injured people, bonding over your wounds. that can work great in a lot of contexts, like say a support group. not so much as a foundation for a romantic relationship; its how a lot of us found ourselves here, or how a lot of us coped after the breakup. it can feel great at first, but when the relationship moves beyond those initial stages, it can get messy.

I was apprehensive about starting a new relationship but I thought (sounds selfish writing this) that it may help me with stopping ruminating about my ex. It did at first but now I find myself attaching a bit too strongly for my liking.

For example I was conditioned over the years to immediately reply to my ex texts for fear that it would trigger her. Now in this relationship I found myself getting “worried anxious” when I missed her text for 4 hours and not only that I also got anxious and worried when she didn’t reply straight away as I was so used to constant texts and calls from my ex

I feel like I get on with her really well but I would say 40% of our conversations are about her ex. I haven’t mentioned mine too much but do give her little insights to the abuse I had in context with hers.

I’m going to carry on seeing her. The good thing is we haven’t become sexual and both want to take it slow. However  right now the situation with my ex’ son is taking prevalence as I’m really concerned about his future in education as well as the fact she doesn’t not feed him adequately.

I started a new thread I. The other section regarding this. 

In thank you so much for coming back to me once removed, it is really really appreciated.

You know I have to say that I feel like I owe you all so much for helping me through this. Thank you.

[EyesUp]

Hello @BMind,

A couple of ideas in response to recent posts:

Fleas:
While mental illness is not contagious, conditioned responses and other patterns can develop - in any relationship.

Habits and routines become familiar. Sometimes we adopt phrases from our partners, e.g., my uBPDxw's family all say (and write!) "nite nite" (not "night night"), and I find that it's something I've adopted and continue to say to our kids...   is that a kind of "flea" that jumped off her and now resides on me? Maybe. 

That said - It's not a "BPD flea" - I'll defer to Once Removed and others re: how far we need to go scrutinize the language, I mainly wanted to say: I've spent a great deal of time in my own therapy exploring how my relationship with my uBPDxw has influenced me.  I don't see the influence as a permanent thing, and so I strive to work on how to think objectively - about myself and others - without knee-jerk reactions I may have developed over years of adapting - or attempting to adapt - to meet my uBPDxw's ever changing needs/demands/preferences/expectations/entitlements...  it's something I'm still working on a few years out, and expect to continue to work on.

Dating:
Conventional wisdom suggests that we all take time to heal after a breakup, divorce, etc.  There are many good reasons for this, at the top of the list are: to protect yourself (from getting hurt again, repeating past mistakes, etc), followed closely by to protect others (from getting hurt by you).

That said, I don't think that there is only one possible approach to all possible scenarios and individuals...  Based on what you've described, it sounds like you're attuned to risks and potential problems.  I agree that exploring a new relationship can be an important step in almost any recovery process.  So now that something is underway - What are some other things to look out for at this point?

- do you feel that sharing recent experiences is a mutual discussion?  i.e., does she show interest in you and your recent experience, or only in venting her own feelings?
- are you comfortable sharing your recent experience at this point?  both in general (requires a great deal of vulnerability and awareness of the trauma you've experienced), and also with her in particular (do you have a sense of safety and trust)?  it might be hard to know...
- do you feel that you're at a point where you can "trust your gut" or is there a chance that you're overlooking or even ignoring certain signals?  again, hard to know - but at this moment and going forward, you need to be your own best ally

In my case, after my 14yr marriage ended, I intended to pursue a "year of peace" and to focus on my kids and my self following my divorce. During this time, my therapist advised me to reconnect with old friends, family, etc - standard advice. In the process of reconnecting with friends, I learned that my college girlfriend was also recently divorced.  We hadn't been in touch in years, but we had a positive post-dating friendship after college (and before my marriage), and you can see where this is going...  I was a bit apprehensive because I did not fully complete my "year of peace" however it was enormously helpful to reconnect with an old friend, with a certain level of mutual trust, as well as recent shared experience. We live on opposite sides of the US, so there was never a question about dating per se - but we got together about once a month, as parenting schedules would allow, and the time we spent together was very healthy for both of us. 

In fact, it was helpful to me in ways I could not have anticipated - I didn't realize that I was holding on to the idea that I might be the problem.  Over some time, I was able to begin to learn to trust myself again - and let go of my uBPDxw's voice, that was still echoing in my head (fleas?).

Which is to say:  please be accountable to yourself, mindful of your readiness, and strive for some mutuality.  We all know about the cliche of rebound relationships.  The truth is:  They are great when everyone is aligned.  It's the alignment that's tricky...   just like any other relationship.

I hope this is helpful in some way.

[once removed]

I thought as much I’ve only ever heard it called fleas and I hate to generalise. This is what worries me slightly

phrases, sayings, mannerisms, interests, hobbies, all kinds of influences: these are all things we pick up in communities and relationships. relationships/communities develop their own language and ways of interacting. this is very normal. adapting and becoming like our surroundings is part of evolution. mirroring is how people (everyone) bond. people with bpd, or anyone with a weaker identity, just tend to take it to a higher level.  

our mental health issues are about us and how we cope and respond to stress. if i had a higher than normal fear of abandonment after my breakup, it isnt because my ex gave it to me - its because i was going through a bad breakup, and under a lot of stress from it, and i was pretty needy.

breakups can be traumatic of course, and a lot of what we may be going through in the aftermath can be expected, eg it is "normal" to be emotionally unavailable after a breakup, or the death of a loved one, etc; hence the need to fully grieve and work through the attachment to that person and the wounds from the relationship.

if someone cheats on me, its reasonable to a point that i might be concerned about that happening in a future relationship, but if i bring that concern/fear into future relationships, and i start to try to manage the other person to placate my fears that i havent worked through, that is my own unresolved baggage, and my own way of coping, and its going to impact my relationships for the worse. this is self evident: no two people who, having experienced the same thing (anything traumatic), will struggle with it to the same degree, or in the same way.

For example I was conditioned over the years to immediately reply to my ex texts for fear that it would trigger her. Now in this relationship I found myself getting “worried anxious” when I missed her text for 4 hours and not only that I also got anxious and worried when she didn’t reply straight away as I was so used to constant texts and calls from my ex

i dont say this to minimize your experience; we all dealt with a great deal more stress than is present in your average relationship, and while we all did the best we could, we struggled with it.

this anxiety/worry you developed and the strategy you used, are how you adapted to and coped with stress. its an important distinction, because remove the ex from the equation, and its still present in your new relationship. could it be temporary? sure. could it speak more broadly to your attachment style, or your unresolved grief? also sure.

moreover, if people have that power over us, there is absolutely nothing to prevent it from happening again.

I thought that it may help me with stopping ruminating about my ex.

this, likewise, is how you are coping with stress. there are lots of ways to work through ruminations; using a relationship as one is a crutch or a distraction from your grief. distractions arent inherently bad; i fully support diving head first into video games or other hobbies (within reason) after a bad breakup   the problem in this case is that theres another person on the end of that, that youre interacting and bonding with over it. thats a far more complex thing happening.

I feel like I get on with her really well but I would say 40% of our conversations are about her ex.

a previously unresolved relationship (thats a pretty extreme amount happening in the context of the two of you starting a relationship), while not a sign of physical danger or harm, is a sign of an emotionally unavailable person that is not prepared to be relationship material.

it all suggests that you are both emotionally unavailable/wounded individuals looking to each other to heal your (very fresh) wounds. that is a foundation of a relationship that is fraught with peril. it will get complicated when the exes are no longer a part of the picture.

I’m going to carry on seeing her.

with that said, you neither have to stop seeing her, nor "run for the hills". there is nothing inherently wrong with dating or flirting after a breakup. what i think is important here, and for all of us after these breakups, is to be both self aware, and realistic. our relationship pickers are usually off; i know mine was. if anything, it might help to expand your dating pool (see other people, even casually), and otherwise not to invest your emotional recovery in this pairing. there are limits to what it can be.

[Brokenmind]

Hey EyesUp

without knee-jerk reactions I may have developed over years of adapting - or attempting to adapt - to meet my uBPDxw's ever changing needs/demands/preferences/expectations/entitlements...  it's something I'm still working on a few years out, and expect to continue to work on.

Yeap this is me. I find myself, not so much now, adopting some of our defenses in dealing with my emotions. For example she would drink coffee after coffee smoking weed rocking back and forth on the sofa. I dont smoke weed but during christmas and january i found myself sitting on my own drinking coffee after coffee and chain smoking. I stopped now but its interesting that I started rocking back and forth too.

Or when I'm waiting in line for something I would start getting impatient and angry just like she used to when waiting. Before we split I was very patient and it took a lot to get me angry.

- do you feel that sharing recent experiences is a mutual discussion?  i.e., does she show interest in you and your recent experience, or only in venting her own feelings?
- are you comfortable sharing your recent experience at this point?  both in general (requires a great deal of vulnerability and awareness of the trauma you've experienced), and also with her in particular (do you have a sense of safety and trust)?  it might be hard to know...
- do you feel that you're at a point where you can "trust your gut" or is there a chance that you're overlooking or even ignoring certain signals?  again, hard to know - but at this moment and going forward, you need to be your own best ally

Yes it does feel mutual, she always brings up her ex first, normally our of a normal situation. Like yesterday when we were talking about italian restaurants, (her ex is italian) and she would say how her ex hated going italian as it doesnt compare to his mothers cooking. This will lead to her remembering something he did that was abusive and talk about that, I would then resonate and share my own similar experience with her and she does take an interest and it doesnt feel like she is just venting to me.

Im more apprehensive about sharing and I dont go into details too much. When I share something its normally me just validating her experience and give a vague description of what happened to me and why i resonate with how she is feeling.

For me I have 12 years of abuse and shame, she was with him for under 3 years and if Im honest Im a bit apprehensive to tell her everything that happened (the abuse, cheating, rages and violence) as for me it shows how little self esteem and respect I had and feel ashamed,

I do trust her to share, she is a psychologist as well, and I trust my gut enough to listen to it now. But its the fear of getting hurt again is really there still.

In my case, after my 14yr marriage ended, I intended to pursue a "year of peace" and to focus on my kids and my self following my divorce. During this time, my therapist advised me to reconnect with old friends, family, etc - standard advice.

The same thing my therapist told me to do too. But she wasn't against the idea of me dating again, just for me to be mindful.

This has been very helpful EU thank you. I do feel like I'm not emotionally ready as I'm still healing but I have totally honest with this and I feel so far so has she. Im just scared of being hurt again and I think so is she.

My other fear is that she told me she has only had bad relationships so far. 4 partners in her lifetime (she is 40) and each one had traits of narcassism or bpd. So she even said she feels im the first guy she has dated who doesnt show any red flags. This worries me as a) will she find me boring (is she addicted to trauma) and b) the only common factor in those relationships is her so does she have issues or like she says she only seems to meet people with personality disorder added to the caveat that she is a psychologist so if anything how did she not recognise the toxicity?

[Brokenmind]

Hi Once removed

if i had a higher than normal fear of abandonment after my breakup, it isnt because my ex gave it to me - its because i was going through a bad breakup, and under a lot of stress from it, and i was pretty needy.

I think thats where Iam right now and you encapsulated it perfectly. I never had a fear of abandonment before and Iam feeling pretty needy too and i believe she is too.

The good thing is we have spoken about this and the need to not rush into it  and we have spoken about the fact we are both hurt and need to heal. So we are both aware and she is like me in that although she is very agreeable we are very self aware now of our faults because of our pasts.

it all suggests that you are both emotionally unavailable/wounded individuals looking to each other to heal your (very fresh) wounds. that is a foundation of a relationship that is fraught with peril. it will get complicated when the exes are no longer a part of the picture.

THIS. This is what Im afraid of. That we are both only dating to heal or mask our very fresh wounds. For me personally, I wanted to stay single for a long time until Im happy with myself. I went on a dating app as admittedly I wanted to feel wanted again, especially when I can see by going on Youtube how happy my ex is with this guy. I started dating just to feel good and perhaps try and forget how i feel which at the time was very dark.

And it did feel good. I went on a date with a different girl before and that was fine although we didnt click but it felt nice that she had an interest in me. And then I met this girl where we spoke for over 3 hours in the first phone call alone. This has carried on and we still speak for hours and hours on end. We dont only speak about our exes and this has gotten less and less each time.

Can you elaborate why you think it will get worse once our exes are no longer part of the picture? Do you mean that once we are both healed we would have nothing in common?

[Brokenmind]

Okaaaay maybe you were right.

First red flag???

We were supposed to meet yesterday but she got really drunk at her families house the night before and felt ill yesterday so we didn't meet as planned. I was absolutely fine with it and wished her a speedy recovery. We only communicated by text as she felt so rough.

This morning I get a text from her asking if I want to meet up for a walk in the park but she still feels like crap.

Unfortunately I couldn't as I have a family get together today and I said we can meet after or she is more than welcome to come with me to the get together. I got no response so I called her and still got no answer.

I then get a text saying "sorry not in the mood to talk right now lets talk another time. Its too soon to meet each others families. Have a good day". with none of the usual kisses at the end.

I replied by saying "sorry did I say something wrong" and Ive gotten no response since.

So Im right now feeling like what happened?? Is it me?

She cancelled our plans on Saturday because she was hungover and it feels like she expected me to drop everything today to walk with her in the park.

I really dont need this right now..... So Im going to leave it there and not do anything and just see what happens next.

But Im feeling like crap right now and I dont get why I keep thinking of how I could of done better to have avoided this reaction.

Should I have just dropped my family to go on this walk? I mean she was feeling pretty low still from Friday but Ive only known her for just under a month and this family get together has been planned for weeks.

I'm starting to see the attraction of living like a hermit.

[EyesUp]

Yup, it sounds like you need to slow your roll...

I replied by saying "sorry did I say something wrong" and Ive gotten no response since.


She told you exactly how she feels...
- like crap
- too soon to meet families (a fair position)

Somehow that didn't click.

She didn't say she didn't want to get together - only that she's not ready to join your family event. As far as you know, she doesn't expect you to change your plans for her. She didn't say anything like that. She did miss the offer to connect after the family event, but also wished you a good day, and offered to connect at a later time - so focus on that.

The way I read this is:  She's not feeling great, wanted to try to connect anyway, it's not lining up quite right and she prob still feels like crap...

You're probably accustomed to prompt if not urgent text exchanges with your X, and seem concerned that your new acquaintance was slow to respond. My suggestion is: Dial it back a bit. Another response might have been:  "yeah, probably getting ahead of myself - thanks for that - catch you later"

If that sort of non-defensive response isn't intuitive, then I agree: you may benefit from a bit more time to heal / recover in general.

In the meantime, give her a minute or two - i.e., maybe follow up tomorrow the day after to see if she's recovered.   

In the meantime, enjoy that family gathering, and take some time for yourself.

[Brokenmind]

Hey EyesUp

I was correct in my assumption that she was being stand offish. She sent me a text later today apologising and that something happened on her night out which involved someone spiking her drink. Nothing happened but she recalls getting into a cab with 2 nurses (male and female) and she got scared and screamed to be let out. She is fine and got home safely.

I comforted her and offered her my support as she works with these people and is unsure who actually spiked her drink.

One problem remains though. I didnt mention it to her but she lied. She told me she was at her parents house and she must of forgotten and slipped she was out with friends.

Why she would lie I dont know but I take that as a red flag.

[SinisterComplex]

Hey EyesUp

I was correct in my assumption that she was being stand offish. She sent me a text later today apologising and that something happened on her night out which involved someone spiking her drink. Nothing happened but she recalls getting into a cab with 2 nurses (male and female) and she got scared and screamed to be let out. She is fine and got home safely.

I comforted her and offered her my support as she works with these people and is unsure who actually spiked her drink.

One problem remains though. I didnt mention it to her but she lied. She told me she was at her parents house and she must of forgotten and slipped she was out with friends.

Why she would lie I dont know but I take that as a red flag.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck well then it is a F duck! LOL.  As for why she would lie...does it really matter? It's ultimately irrelevant because it is a red flag. It is a do not pass go do not collect $200 moment. Your assumption wasn't an assumption...it was a protective instinct kicking in...listen to it.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[EyesUp]

@BMind,

I have to agree with @SC. 

We can speculate all day about what's going on here, but it all boils down to:  Is it possible to establish a healthy dynamic, trust, etc., from this starting point?   

Sure, it's possible to talk it out and see how goes, see how you feel, listen to your gut, give it another shot...  but...  for many of us, there will be a lingering doubt - "remember that time, way back when, at the beginning, when you said that you were with your parents, but you were actually roofied while out drinking?" 

Given everything you're working on these days, I have to wonder if this is a positive distraction or something else?

You don't need to go full hermit, but you don't need to dive right into a new relationship either.

How are you feeling about her point re: not meeting families right away? 
How was your family event? 

Wishing you a good week...

[once removed]

First red flag???

I'm starting to see the attraction of living like a hermit.

if what you take from this experience is to approach dating with fear (hypervigilance), you will be even less likely to find a fulfilling, healthy relationship, and more likely to find one that is dysfunctional.

sure, she shows obvious signs of dysfunction. they speak for themselves. but they (further) paint a picture of someone who is not emotionally available for a mutual, healthy relationship, not something that is going to harm you.

the potential harm to you isnt about her at all, or what to learn to avoid. its about you.

if you read through your posts and your descriptions of her, what is the fundamental point of attraction that you describe having to her? validation.

it isnt about her character. it isnt about the great memories you share. it isnt about the values you share. heck, it isnt even about her looks.

its about how she makes you feel about yourself. and youve pursued that even despite feeling uncomfortable with how things have been going. that isnt a warning sign about her. shes just trying to attract a mate. it is, when you really look at it, what youre looking for in a partner. it is what you are gravitating toward. when you understand that, you can begin to switch gears.

what you are encountering (her dysfunction) is out there. especially as we get older, the dating pool becomes collectively less healthy, so the more you date, the more youre going to run into it.

the difference, when you learn what to look for in a partner, is not that you will never encounter it again, or that youll run from the first sign of dysfunction. the difference is that when you approach dating with confidence and self assuredness in who you are and what you have to offer (and first become that person), and what you want in a partner, this stuff will either be a blip on your radar, or something you will quickly rebound from. it wont grind you down. sure, you will encounter, or may even pair up with someone who is dysfunctional, or just not a good match (both of those things may not be readily visible, and real intimacy and lasting bonds develop slowly over time), but you will not find yourself deep in a dysfunctional situation thats difficult to extricate yourself from. youll pick yourself up, dust yourself off, get back on that horse, and back on that path, older, wiser, stronger.

[Brokenmind]

Hi SC

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck well then it is a F duck! LOLit was a protective instinct kicking in...listen to it.

Your right. You’d think a psychologist would recognise their own issues. It’s funny how easy I tried to ignore the red flag and second guessed myself.

[Brokenmind]

Hey EU

Given everything you're working on these days, I have to wonder if this is a positive distraction or something else?

How are you feeling about her point re: not meeting families right away? 
How was your family event? 

Absolutely not a positive distraction now. I mean going on the actual dates was positive in the fact I was out having a nice dinner and enjoying her company. But I def don’t need to sit here thinking about why she lied.

It’s ok though as I don’t feel hurt, I’ve only just met her. And it’s kind reassuring that when I saw the lie I kinda just smiled to myself and thought “oh this again?”

In terms of meeting family, in mine it’s not a big thing to bring a partner as it was just a bbq event where we would have stayed for an hour or 2 and ate and leave but I get it.

Also when we spoke before about our families she said she told them about me and they want to meet me now. She said my family sound so close and really wants to meet my nieces who she said hello to when they were round during a video call.

So I didn’t think it was a “let get serious and meet the family” and she gave the same impression as well.

Oh it’s great thank you EyesUp. Nice BBQ and time spent with my nieces and nephews. I’m starting to really come out of the depression shell I’ve been in since the break up and finally started to feel like my old self with my family.

[Brokenmind]

Hi OR

Thank you for the reply.

the potential harm to you isnt about her at all, or what to learn to avoid. its about you.

I think you’re right. To be honest this was my whole intention when I started dating. It was literally to distract myself by going on dates and just having fun. The first date I had was like this, we went out, had a nice night, we didn’t click but it was fine, we both had a nice night.

With the psychologist we spoke for 3 hours in the phone before dating and in this first call she shared that her ex had BPD so she was hurt by it and I’m the first date she’s been with since. This immediately brought a shared connection and we both found validation in each other.

if you read through your posts and your descriptions of her, what is the fundamental point of attraction that you describe having to her? validation.

Yes. You’re correct that was the most fundamental point of attraction. I mean I do find her attractive, she is interesting to talk to and seems to come from a similar family value culture as me. But the fact she went through a similar situation and we both know how that feels brought a certain validation for both of us.

as we get older, the dating pool becomes collectively less healthy, so the more you date, the more youre going to run into it.

Im starting to realise that! It’s been so long for me. 12 years with my ex who I never really dated before being serious, 4 years of not dating before that and a 9 year relationship prior to that. So thats 25 years! Things have certainly changed!

I’m going to take a step back from this relationship. I will tell her about the lie today and say I think it shows we are both not ready to date as she felt she had to lie and I almost forgave it straight away. I think it’s beat. I need to concentrate on my healing and recovery journey as well as concentrate on what’s going on with ex’ son.

Thanks again for this.

[SinisterComplex]

Hi SC

Your right. You’d think a psychologist would recognise their own issues. It’s funny how easy I tried to ignore the red flag and second guessed myself.

You over analyzed and got stuck in analysis paralysis. You are not the first and won't be the last. We are all human and thus all fallible the same. You didn't want to be true what you knew to be true. S happens amigo. You live and you learn. Its a journey and a process. No reason to beat yourself up about it. Take the perspective of hey I guess I have more to learn than I thought I did and I am now presented the opportunity to get better and get stronger.

Cheers and Best Wishes my friend!

-SC-