Some insight and potential progress

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi forum,

I'm reporting some insight that I gained over the weekend and progress on my relationship.

I did have more conversations with her about what happened back in December.  My take is that she basically doesn't believe what I've told her about why I wanted to end the relationship.  I've tried explaining many times but she usually just responds that it doesn't make sense and that I should have just talked to her.  She think that it had everything to do with her being upset that I was late getting back from my hobby and that this is what it was really all about.  The truth is much more complex and has more to do with how I was feeling minimized and that I didn't have a voice in the relationship anymore.  It just happened to be that topic, which has been a raw spot for her for some time.

I think she's just going to have to work this out herself over time.  I've given her all the information I can share but it's up to her to accept it or not.

She's also said that she wants to stay with me and move in together at the end of our lease here.  This was a bit of a whiplash moment for me as she was saying she wanted to end things just a few days ago.  I think the weekend get away idea was helpful to show her that she does mean a lot to me.  Sadly, we ended up coming home part way through because one of the dogs got sick.  We had a pretty good weekend anyway.

On Sunday morning she did have a panic attack.  She's very allergic to dust and decided that the house was disgusting and causing lots of breathing problems and sickness.  I worked to help clean things up but she screamed at me a bit when she got home from the gym and I hadn't completed all the tasks she wanted done.  I used my new found SET skills to hang with it and just be open to her venting.  She calmed down and had a wonderful rest of the day.

Such a ride!

[usagi]

Hi forum,

I'm reporting some insight that I gained over the weekend and progress on my relationship.

I did have more conversations with her about what happened back in December.  My take is that she basically doesn't believe what I've told her about why I wanted to end the relationship.  I've tried explaining many times but she usually just responds that it doesn't make sense and that I should have just talked to her.  She think that it had everything to do with her being upset that I was late getting back from my hobby and that this is what it was really all about.  The truth is much more complex and has more to do with how I was feeling minimized and that I didn't have a voice in the relationship anymore.  It just happened to be that topic, which has been a raw spot for her for some time.

I think she's just going to have to work this out herself over time.  I've given her all the information I can share but it's up to her to accept it or not.

She's also said that she wants to stay with me and move in together at the end of our lease here.  This was a bit of a whiplash moment for me as she was saying she wanted to end things just a few days ago.  I think the weekend get away idea was helpful to show her that she does mean a lot to me.  Sadly, we ended up coming home part way through because one of the dogs got sick.  We had a pretty good weekend anyway.

On Sunday morning she did have a panic attack.  She's very allergic to dust and decided that the house was disgusting and causing lots of breathing problems and sickness.  I worked to help clean things up but she screamed at me a bit when she got home from the gym and I hadn't completed all the tasks she wanted done.  I used my new found SET skills to hang with it and just be open to her venting.  She calmed down and had a wonderful rest of the day.

Such a ride!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

Hi usagi, good to hear back from you;

I did have more conversations with her about what happened back in December.  My take is that she basically doesn't believe what I've told her about why I wanted to end the relationship.  I've tried explaining many times but she usually just responds that it doesn't make sense and that I should have just talked to her.  She think that it had everything to do with her being upset that I was late getting back from my hobby and that this is what it was really all about.  The truth is much more complex and has more to do with how I was feeling minimized and that I didn't have a voice in the relationship anymore.  It just happened to be that topic, which has been a raw spot for her for some time.

I think she's just going to have to work this out herself over time.  I've given her all the information I can share but it's up to her to accept it or not.

It's good that you had the insight that the issue isn't that you haven't explained it enough, or given enough information.

There is no amount of logical, rational, fact-based argument/justification you can give that will impact how she feels inside.

It's good that you realize that it's her responsibility if/how she processes things you tell her. It is not your responsibility to "make sure she gets it" once you've seen that the issue isn't about sharing more information.

While it's her responsibility if/how to accept the info you gave, her, it's your responsibility to accept that she may not accept it -- if that makes sense.

This may be a key part of continuing on in your relationship. Can you accept that she will feel really strongly about any number of things, that those strong feelings may or may not last, that they may or may not have anything to do with stuff going on outside of her, and that unless she sees that as a problem, this is how she's going to be?

She's also said that she wants to stay with me and move in together at the end of our lease here.  This was a bit of a whiplash moment for me as she was saying she wanted to end things just a few days ago.  I think the weekend get away idea was helpful to show her that she does mean a lot to me.  Sadly, we ended up coming home part way through because one of the dogs got sick.  We had a pretty good weekend anyway.

This sounds like a feature of BPD, not a bug. This is just how she operates. She probably meant both things in the moment when she said them, due to her inner feelings of the moment.

I'm glad you had some good times over the weekend. The more I read on the Staying board, the more it seems to me that to have a chance of success, the "non" needs to be OK with the relationship looking different from "generally normal" relationships. You may need to have the structure be more "be together when it's safe to connect, take a break and exit her proximity when it's not". Validation and boundaries.

On Sunday morning she did have a panic attack.  She's very allergic to dust and decided that the house was disgusting and causing lots of breathing problems and sickness.  I worked to help clean things up but she screamed at me a bit when she got home from the gym and I hadn't completed all the tasks she wanted done.  I used my new found SET skills to hang with it and just be open to her venting. She calmed down and had a wonderful rest of the day.

Tell me a little bit more about that. What did "being open to her venting" look like? How long did it last?

Such a ride!

I bet! I hope you can find more ways to let her ride her rollercoaster when she wants to, while declining to hop in when you don't want to. Definitely not intuitive!

...

Any fun/relaxing stuff you are looking forward to this week/weekend?

[usagi]

Hi kells76!

Can you accept that she will feel really strongly about any number of things, that those strong feelings may or may not last, that they may or may not have anything to do with stuff going on outside of her, and that unless she sees that as a problem, this is how she's going to be?

I can.  She feels strongly about lots of things.  She often tells me a story about how she felt she let her mom down and still to this day can't forgive herself.  It's something her mom doesn't even remember but she can't let it go.  It's part of who she is.

Tell me a little bit more about that. What did "being open to her venting" look like? How long did it last?

Basically it was her going through all the things she felt people were doing to her.  That she isn't taken care of.  That the house is much dirtier than she's ever experienced with her ex.  How I can't concentrate on my tasks.  How no one cares about her health...and on and on.  I stood with my hands open sort of in a welcoming posture.  I tried to recognize her feelings as much as possible and didn't get upset at her accusations.  Probably 15 to 20 minutes of this while she was making herself some lunch.  She finally said she didn't want to see me so I went in the other room with the dog.  She eventually came over and we talked some more about how she was feeling.

Any fun/relaxing stuff you are looking forward to this week/weekend?

Thanks for asking =)
No big plans for this weekend.  Step son will be with us, which means that she'll be focused on him.  Some talk of bowling but nothing in particular at the moment.

[thankful person]

Usagi,

Glad to hear you’ve been making some progress, it sounds like you’re handling things really well. I think it’s all about taking the power back and realising that we non bpd’s can play a large part in the insanity, if we’re letting a mentally unstable and somewhat delusional person rule our lives and homes and families. Easier said than done for sure.

It’s been such a rollercoaster here too. My wife had a high week where she connected with new friends and was happiest since she’s had kids she said. She got baptised and felt reborn and it was an amazing difference in her. Silly me.. I forgot that we were at the top of a rollercoaster. And then we came hurtling down. It seemed to be triggered by a notification quote on her phone where she’s getting Bible verses and affirmations and it said, “you deserve to be treated well.” And she turned on me and we came crashing down because she suddenly remembered, hang on, life is not good because my wife treats me so badly. “Jesus knows how badly you treat me” she said.

My wife has not returned to church since the baptism and has multiple excuses and me being a bad wife is one of the main ones. Yesterday we all drove there but she refused to go in. I wish she’d give the church a chance to help her feel better, but I know it’s codependent thinking and none of my business whether she goes. I am trying to pay less attention to her tantrums and not be emotionally involved, and I gave up all the apologising several years ago. I have noticed that I literally care less about all this drama and that takes her power away so she behaves more sanely. Sometimes.

[usagi]

Thanks for sharing thankful person.

I'm sorry to hear that you're on the downswing of the rollercoaster.  I've often used that analogy with people.  I'm honestly not sure where I'm at at the moment.  I think it's the upswing?

Pretty tough to be told that "Jesus knows".  How are you handling that?

I am slowly learning to not let the drama overwhelm me.

[SinisterComplex]

Thanks for sharing thankful person.

I'm sorry to hear that you're on the downswing of the rollercoaster.  I've often used that analogy with people.  I'm honestly not sure where I'm at at the moment.  I think it's the upswing?

Pretty tough to be told that "Jesus knows".  How are you handling that?

I am slowly learning to not let the drama overwhelm me.

Usagi, it is okay if you are slowly learning...it takes time. The important thing is that you are taking the steps forward and you continue to make progress...even when setbacks occur. Just focus on being centered and stay the course. Do not put any undue stress or pressure on yourself such as comparing to others, etc. Everyone has their own timeline.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[once removed]

I did have more conversations with her about what happened back in December.  My take is...

it seems like the conversation hit an impasse, but would you say that there was progress on the issue, or maybe more specifically, the communication?

worth revisiting from another angle in a few days?

[usagi]

worth revisiting from another angle in a few days?

Thanks once removed,

I think so.  I need to talk with her anyway because I have an event related to my hobby that happens this summer.  It was the same as last summer that really started this whole thing.  I want to figure out when I'm going so everyone knows well in advance.

But I'm honestly not sure what else I can say about this topic.  She's convinced that I abandoned her and my step son and our dog and other pets for my hobby.  I don't agree with any of that.  I'm not going to admit something that I think is untrue.  I'd be willing to hear more about what she thinks but I'm not sure I'll hear anything new either.  What I've heard from her is that my hobby "stands in" for something else in my life.  I've done my best to explain why this is important.  I was with this group of people when I got divorced and they were really supportive and helped me through it all.  It's an activity that I find very fulfilling and I'm good at it.  It's not unhealthy in any way and it helps me be a happier person.

I think all of that to her sounds like a challenge for her attention.  She's said that either you want to do this or be with me.  I don't see it that way and have already scaled WAY back on how much I participate.

All that said, I left because I couldn't even have a conversation with her about this.  Her position was that it was either all or nothing.  And she used the house purchase and our relationship as the ultimatum.  She has said that if she hadn't gotten upset with me about my hobby I never would have left.  That may be true.  I don't really protect much in my life but this is something I don't want to lose.  She's said that she wishes that I would fight for her and our family like that.  But she doesn't know how much I turn myself inside out to be with her.  All the counseling, studying, reflection, working through things on this forum.  It's like a part time job if not more.

[once removed]

I was with this group of people when I got divorced and they were really supportive and helped me through it all.  

have you impressed this part on her specifically?

[usagi]

have you impressed this part on her specifically?

Oh yes.

[thankful person]

Pretty tough to be told that "Jesus knows".  How are you handling that?

I am slowly learning to not let the drama overwhelm me.

I like to think that Jesus knows I have the patience of a saint even though I’m not religious. Things were ok again but then today I received a call about agency work and they wanted me to fill the gaps in my CV. Unfortunately I was having the time of my life travelling the world with my ex 20 years ago. Whilst I didn’t put it like that, that’s what she heard, that I’m always still choosing him over her. I pretty much ignored it knowing I had several hours of work to spend away from her soon. By the time I had finished she was over it. I used to feel like I wasn’t strong enough to handle work when something like that went down. But I really didn’t care today. That was very helpful.

[once removed]

Oh yes.

do you think the significance of that might have to do with why she sees it as "hobby" vs her?

[usagi]

This is really the only "me" time that I protect for myself.  Since it's the only real competition for her time I'm sure that's true.  But I'm only ever doing this maybe once a week.  Like 90% of my free time is spent with her and her son (just checked that number).  10% time for me is NOT unreasonable.

Lately I've been focusing on making sure to communicate when I'll be gone and trying to stick to a set schedule so it's predictable.  I also need to talk about the seminar this summer.

"Baby, I don't want to have any of the problems we had last year with my hobby so let's sit down and work out right now when I'll be going so we can both stop worrying about it."

Something like that.

[once removed]

"Baby, I don't want to have any of the problems we had last year with my hobby so let's sit down and work out right now when I'll be going so we can both stop worrying about it."

Something like that.

she might hear "i dont want to deal with your   so lets get this over with"  

I was with this group of people when I got divorced and they were really supportive and helped me through it all.  
...
This is really the only "me" time that I protect for myself

the reason that i bring this up is that it has an emotional significance to you that wasnt clear before, and at the risk of reading too much into it, may be a bigger part of the picture than is obvious.

two quick examples:

1. early in my relationship, i got in a really big (one of many) fight with my ex. i was around her and some of my friends, at home. at some point, she found a bag of hair. that hair belonged to an ex girlfriend. the reason that i had it was a joke to begin with, but id forgotten all about it. she suggested that i get rid of it. i told her i wasnt going to do that. she went ballistic. we fought over it, multiple times, over many hours.

to her, it represented that i was still holding onto my ex, and especially with my refusal to get rid of it. to me, that was absurd; i was long past my ex, and it was the principle of the thing: i wasnt going to just have someone new in my life come into it and tell me what to change, what to do, and i certainly wasnt going to do it to resolve her (in my view) unreasonable insecurity.

2. i came to bpdfamily about thirteen years ago now, for support for that relationship. im here, thirteen years later, not for anything directly to do with my ex, but because it was, and is, a community i want to be a part of, and in my experience, help others now going through it.

but would it be crazy if i met someone and they thought that maybe my being here thirteen years later meant i was hung up on my ex, or how i hadnt moved on?

presumably, you are in a similar boat. this hobby/community was an invaluable source of support for you in a very difficult time. you want to remain part of it, give back to it. it has an important emotional significance to you, that not just any hobby would have.

i probably dont need to tell you that people with bpd are generally insecure, and they tend to be hypervigilant for signs that confirm their feelings/beliefs. your loved one knows the emotional significance of this hobby to you, and she also probably sees it as a connection to your ex wife, and/or that time period. if shes right on any level, then she can feel that, and reasonably, would see it as a threat to her connection with you. it is why she may feel, as strongly as she does, that you are choosing it over her. and you may not literally be choosing that, but it is effectively true, if push came to shove.

im not telling you to drop the hobby. i would take some time to think about if theres any validity to that line of thinking, if it is indeed her line of thinking. i would take some time to consider whether my refusal to drop the hobby has to do with emotional attachment.

if so, understanding that part of the bigger picture in this conflict will help navigate. if not, its really good to be sure.

[SaltyDawg]

Usagi:  "I was with this group of people when I got divorced and they were really supportive and helped me through it all."

Once Removed: "have you impressed this part on her specifically?"

Usagi:  "Oh yes."

Once Removed: "do you think the significance of that might have to do with why she sees it as "hobby" vs her?"


Usagi,

   I think your most recent answer to Once Removed, you might have missed the point he was trying to make, so, I am going to be a little more blunt than Once Removed - you shared that your hobby originated when you 'got divorced' and all of these people were really 'supportive' to you and 'helped' you through your divorce.

   For a moment, try looking at this statement from a borderline lens or perspective of their 'fear of abandondment (real or imagined)'.  Although, we are not mind readers, when I read your statement, this too stood out to me, specifically your 'divorce' 'support' comment.  I strongly suspect, if this support aspect has been communicated regularly and consistently to her, she is likely freaking out on the inside with a thought pattern that might look like "My man is doing his hobby, the same one that he got all of this support and help for his divorce - if he is so adamant about doing this again, he is thinking of leaving me too"

   You know this is not true, we know this is not true; however, she does not think this way.  To her, it is her worst fears coming true, you are going to leave her, and she is freaking out because of her likely thought patterns.  I would suggest asking her, using SET communication, if she is thinking this way.

   Perhaps say something along the lines, in your own words, "[pet name], I have previously communicated how my hobby friends previously supported me in my hobby through a dark time in my life of my divorce.  I know you are very upset with me, whenever I leave in order to do this hobby, it makes you incredibly angry at me.  I am wondering if you might be thinking that whenever I leave you in order to do my hobby, it finally dawned on me on how I could be so insensitive to your feelings as as you might be thinking I am going to be leaving you too.  I am very curious as to your thoughts on this matter?" 

   If she agrees in the affirmative on this, you will need to damage control and reassure her that it is not your intent on leaving her, and make promise not to make any more insensitive comments on how they helped you through your divorce with your ex, and only focus on how it helps you without alluding in any way form or fashion to helped you in your divorce.  Only focus on expressing how it is helping you now, without any reference to leaving her.

   Take care.

SD



P.S.  I saw Once Removed just posted along similar lines, in a different manner, when I hit the 'post' button. I feel there is enough of a different perspective to impress upon you the borderline viewpoint of the insecurity that O.R. mentioned of a borderline.  I am in agreement with O.R.'s assessment.

[usagi]

Thanks SD and OR,

There is definitely an emotional component to my hobby.  The activity is important to me for different reasons but the emotional bit is the people.  Community is important to me and something that I need.  And this is my community.

I totally get what you are both poking at.  Because of my emotional ties to this group she feels threatened.

So how to balance my needs with her feelings of abandonment?

This is something I feel is really at the heart of being in a relationship with someone with BPD.  That strong fear of abandonment, real or perceived, drives them to demand all of your time.  And it can be easy to fall into the thinking that if I just let go of this one thing she'll be happy.

I think talking to her in a more straightforward way about topic could go one of two ways.  Either it will trigger her and we'll just get into a big fight.  Or it might make her feel some relief that I recognize how she's feeling.  Or maybe both of these things will happen.

One of the approaches I've been trying to use is to not really talk about it and try to normalize my time with these people.  I state clearly when I'm leaving and when I'm coming home and stick to it.  If she asks me about what happened I keep things pretty general, even if I would like to share some of my experiences.

I suspect this is very similar to what others experience when they try to balance their outside relationships with their time with their loved one with BPD.  Same here.  Activity isn't really important.  It's that there are people that I want to spend time with that aren't her, sometimes.

[SaltyDawg]

Usagi,

There is definitely an emotional component to my hobby.  The activity is important to me for different reasons but the emotional bit is the people.  Community is important to me and something that I need.  And this is my community.

If and when you have this conversation with her, this is the point I would drive home, if I were in your shoes...

I totally get what you are both poking at.  Because of my emotional ties to this group she feels threatened.

So how to balance my needs with her feelings of abandonment?

This is something I feel is really at the heart of being in a relationship with someone with BPD.  That strong fear of abandonment, real or perceived, drives them to demand all of your time.  And it can be easy to fall into the thinking that if I just let go of this one thing she'll be happy.

I think talking to her in a more straightforward way about topic could go one of two ways.  Either it will trigger her and we'll just get into a big fight.  Or it might make her feel some relief that I recognize how she's feeling.  Or maybe both of these things will happen.

Yes, there needs to be a balance here, his needs vs. her needs. 

I also agree with you about your observation that their fear of abandonment drives them to demand all of your time, and I have documented this in my own relationship many times.  When ideally there should be 50:50 reciprocity; however, when I measured it using time doing the other's top two love languages for the two different weeks I measured this in 2022 it was 135:1, and in 2023 it was 99:1 measured in six minute increments (1/10th of an hour).  Now I have matched her input after calling her bluff on divorce (she doesn't do it any more), and my goal is 60/40 so she cannot complain that I do not do 50/50.  For the most part this has been achieved, even though she has convinced the couple's therapist this is not happening.  In 2022, when I told my wife, I was taking a few hours per day for self-care she attempted suicide - this issue surrounding your time, to a borderline, can get scary fast, scary quick.  With therapy, my wife has been able to manage this aspect; however, from 2003 to 2022, this was not managed by her, and it was always contentious at best. 

I fully encourage you to follow your desire with your hobby, do not let her take that away from you.  However, this must be balanced by at least acknowledging her needs of not feeling abandoned.

You know how your wife will respond to such a conversation.  Other than a blow-up which you are already experiencing whenever this topic comes up anyways, what is there to lose if you talk to her about this topic while she is baseline at least once?  From my perspective there is very little to lose (another potential blow up), and a whole lot to gain by talking about this with her - I suspect she will feel validated, and perhaps a change her mind to accomodate your needs - I have seen it in my wife - I hope and pray yours can be able to do this too.

One of the approaches I've been trying to use is to not really talk about it and try to normalize my time with these people.  I state clearly when I'm leaving and when I'm coming home and stick to it.  If she asks me about what happened I keep things pretty general, even if I would like to share some of my experiences.

I suspect this is very similar to what others experience when they try to balance their outside relationships with their time with their loved one with BPD.  Same here.  Activity isn't really important.  It's that there are people that I want to spend time with that aren't her, sometimes.

I do something similar, especially with the times I am coming and going.  I always return home well before the stated time, and on the rare occasion I cannot make the return time, I will text well before this time, so when she looks at her phone she will not become anxious over this.  I have seen her lose it recently with our daughter with her being only 15 minutes late coming home due to inclement weather.  My wife's mind immediately went to catastrophizing where our daughter died in an accident, effectively abandoning her, when in fact that was not the case.  I have seen the pattern in other borderlines as well.

Take care.

SD

[usagi]

Thanks SD,

I do realize that more conversations need to happen.  It's clear that she's still feeling threatened by me spending time at my hobby with my friends.

Late last year she and I were home alone together.  We both had a day to work from home.  I decided to do some hobby related things since I hadn't been with the group in a while.  While I was engaged in the activity she watched and commented that she has no issue with the activity.  It's the people and amount of time I spend away that she struggles with.

My goal for this year is to normalize the whole thing.  I'm going to stick to my schedule and try to not talk about it at all when home.  If she asks I'll make some general comments but keep things brief.

It's clear that she really struggles with this.  Even before the blow up last year in July, she would make comments like "parents don't have hobbies and if you want to be a parent you need to make some decisions."  She's convinced that any parents that participate are "bad parents."  She's said many times that maybe I want to go back to living the life of a childless person and that I really don't want a family.  Those kind of comments hurt but it's coming from this place of fear.

I feel that helping her not feel abandoned means making sure she knows EXACTLY when I'll be gone and when I'm coming home, not talking about the activity much with her so she feels like it's more important than her, and making sure to schedule one on one time with her so she gets the attention that she needs to feel wanted and loved. 

[SaltyDawg]

It's clear that she really struggles with this.  Even before the blow up last year in July, she would make comments like "parents don't have hobbies and if you want to be a parent you need to make some decisions."  She's convinced that any parents that participate are "bad parents."  She's said many times that maybe I want to go back to living the life of a childless person and that I really don't want a family.  Those kind of comments hurt but it's coming from this place of fear.

I feel that helping her not feel abandoned means making sure she knows EXACTLY when I'll be gone and when I'm coming home, not talking about the activity much with her so she feels like it's more important than her, and making sure to schedule one on one time with her so she gets the attention that she needs to feel wanted and loved.

Usagi,

   I scanned your previous posts about children.  From what I can tell you have only mentioned that she has a son from a previous relationship and shares custody with her ex.  Do you have any children together?  If not, are you planning on having children together?  Do you have any children from a previous relationship that live with you?  If the answer is 'yes' to any of these questions, this may change the dynamic a little bit, and would validate some of her narrative a bit more, as she would be watching/supervising 'your' child/children while you are having your 'me time'. 

   In your post at

But she does have some physical activities that she does every day that take up 1 to 1.5 hours.  So that's 7 to 10.5 hours a week for her self care.  My hobby doesn't exceed that.  This past weekend I was gone for a little over 6 hours on Saturday and had intended on working a couple of hours Sunday morning.  After she got upset and left with her son for 4 hours I kept working for a bit.  I was going to spend time occupying him but she was too hurt to listen.

   You mentioned she does 1-1.5 hours per day.  Is that physical activity alone, or at the gym with other friends?  I am curious if she has any activities that she does that involve interactions with other people outside of your relationship -- her "community" (using your term)? 

   I do agree you should communicate exactly when you will be gone and returning, that is one part of the equation.  Scheduling one on one time is also very important as well.  I am curious as to what kinds of activities you do with her child / your children?  I am also curious as to the approximate age of her child / your children?

   The reason why I am focusing on the child aspect, is because leaving a child / children with a disordered person when they are disordered can be very emotionally damaging to the child /children - I am guilty of doing this for many years, and now I am trying to undo the damage that I have contributed to by pursuing my career, which was also a passion of mine, by most standards a fun and adventurous one by most people's standards as TV shows have been made about my career, and I was oblivious to the damage I was causing at home by doing this.  I am mentioning this, as it is one more thing to consider in finding the right balance for you, her, and the child(ren).

   Take care.

SD

[usagi]

Do you have any children together?  If not, are you planning on having children together?  Do you have any children from a previous relationship that live with you?
  If the answer is 'yes' to any of these questions, this may change the dynamic a little bit, and would validate some of her narrative a bit more, as she would be watching/supervising 'your' child/children while you are having your 'me time'. 

She only has the one son with her ex-husband.  I do not have any children of my own.  We had thought about adopting at one point but that went so south and is a difficult story to tell.  We are not going to have kids together.

Is that physical activity alone, or at the gym with other friends?  I am curious if she has any activities that she does that involve interactions with other people outside of your relationship -- her "community" (using your term)?

She just does lap swimming.  There are people she sees frequently and chat with but not sure if I'd go so far as to say it's a community she shares.  Lap swimming is a very solitary practice.

I am curious as to what kinds of activities you do with her child / your children?  I am also curious as to the approximate age of her child / your children?

Her son and I usually bond over building things.  I've found little projects and STEM type of activities to do together.  Otherwise we geek out over airplanes and space flight.

Her son has the full support of her and her ex.  I do my best to parent when he's with us but I don't feel ultimately responsible for him.  If we can't be with him for some reason he goes to his dads.

I had expected that in December when I went away she would have taken him to his dads place.  Instead he stayed at our place and she complained that he didn't have any support because she was away at work.

[SaltyDawg]

She only has the one son with her ex-husband.  I do not have any children of my own.  We had thought about adopting at one point but that went so south and is a difficult story to tell.  We are not going to have kids together.

Her son and I usually bond over building things.  I've found little projects and STEM type of activities to do together.  Otherwise we geek out over airplanes and space flight.

Her son has the full support of her and her ex.  I do my best to parent when he's with us but I don't feel ultimately responsible for him.  If we can't be with him for some reason he goes to his dads.

I had expected that in December when I went away she would have taken him to his dads place.  Instead he stayed at our place and she complained that he didn't have any support because she was away at work.

Usagi,

   Thank you for sharing the additional details about children.  Borderlines often think in absolutes - I see where you said that you don't have ultimate responsibility for him, and that is understandable; however, what does she think about this arrangement?

   I suspect she does think you have ultimate responsibility for him, when he is not with her at your place and you were not around when she complained he had no support from you [implied].  I can now understand her complaint about you not being a parent a little more clearly - I sense she is feeling that she is not feeling supported by you with regards to helping her with her son.  She sees you as not stepping up to the plate, and that is very important to a mother, whereas you do not think you are ultimately responsible for her son since he is not biologically yours - I see both perspectives here. 

   I am not going to tell you what to do; however, I will ask, if you think she might be open for a compromise here?  I know my wife does not compromise well, even though she says she does, my wife's version is all or nothing, and is not a compromise.  If she is going to do this version it will be contentious at best.  If she keeps her word and has compromised on other things in the past, you might want to explore that aspect of offering her support, at least a token amount, while still maintaining your hobby.

   One last observation, if a child is left home alone, make sure that he is old enough to be home alone - where I live it is 12 years old by state law, and from the sound of your activities together he might be 12 or younger with the STEM kits.  While it is ultimately her responsibility to ensure this is complied with; however, you are her partner, and at least in theory, be willing to support her on this.

She just does lap swimming.  There are people she sees frequently and chat with but not sure if I'd go so far as to say it's a community she shares.  Lap swimming is a very solitary practice.

I agree lap swimming is a very solitary practice, unless breast stroke is being done having a conversation really cannot occur while exercising.  Encourage her to have her own community type activities, if she is open to this - she might schedule hers at the same time as yours and that may generate more conflict.  Have you considered inviting her to yours?  I seem you recall you might have mentioned it before, possibly in a different thread, can you refresh my memory?

That's it for the moment.  Take care.  Have a great weekend.

SD

[usagi]

Thanks so much SD!

However, what does she think about this arrangement?

Some days she says that she wants to have her son live with us full time.  Other days when he's been abusive and difficult she doesn't want to see him again.  It's interesting, she's lately been rewriting the break up story in December to say that she decided not to move because she needed to be close to him.

She sees you as not stepping up to the plate, and that is very important to a mother, whereas you do not think you are ultimately responsible for her son since he is not biologically yours - I see both perspectives here.

If she and I did break-up, I would not expect to still be part of his life and be responsible for his parenting.  But while we are together I very much treat him as my son.  He does online school and I mostly work from home.  During those days we are together I am the primary parent.  And there are times when I need to step in and parent when my partner is unable to because of her own emotional needs/dysregulation.  I love him and am working hard all the time to be a better parent.  When my partner is dysregulated she often says that I'm not a parent at all and have not shown to be even trying.  That's pretty hurtful.  I work very hard at being a good parent and am getting more effective all the time.

I am not going to tell you what to do; however, I will ask, if you think she might be open for a compromise here?

I have already made lots of compromises on my hobby.  I used to attend three times a week.  Now I'm down to once a week or less.  I am flexible on our family and her schedule to not go if we are going to do something special.

Have you considered inviting her to yours?  I seem you recall you might have mentioned it before, possibly in a different thread, can you refresh my memory?

She actually suggested that she could do my hobby with me at home and when we moved.  We tried that out for a very brief period but she quickly lost interest.  Since she invaded my privacy and looked at some of my text messages with my colleagues she never wants to spend time with them.

[SaltyDawg]

Quote from: SaltyDawg on 2024-02-16, 15:31:00
However, what does she think about this arrangement?

Some days she says that she wants to have her son live with us full time.  Other days when he's been abusive and difficult she doesn't want to see him again.  It's interesting, she's lately been rewriting the break up story in December to say that she decided not to move because she needed to be close to him.

Her son is abusive too?  I am curious who do you perceive as being more abusive her, or her son?  I also notice with my BPD wife, she will write whatever narrative her feelings are at the moment.  Be aware of this dynamic, and adjust accordingly.

If she and I did break-up, I would not expect to still be part of his life and be responsible for his parenting.  But while we are together I very much treat him as my son.  He does online school and I mostly work from home.  During those days we are together I am the primary parent.  And there are times when I need to step in and parent when my partner is unable to because of her own emotional needs/dysregulation.  I love him and am working hard all the time to be a better parent.  When my partner is dysregulated she often says that I'm not a parent at all and have not shown to be even trying.  That's pretty hurtful.  I work very hard at being a good parent and am getting more effective all the time.

When she is dysregulated, she says mean things, that is the nature of BPD.  Try not to take it personal at the time she is saying these things.  This does not mean hold her accountable for these things; however, you will have to wait until she is regulated again, and then using "I" statements make her aware of these terrible things she has said about you.  Perhaps reframe it in a way, I do 1, 2, 3, 4, for [name of son]; do you think I am being a good surrogate parent to him?  If it is different that what she said when she was upset, you know she did not mean this.  I do a form of radical acceptance; however, I also feel that one needs to hold them accountable for spewing such lies when they are dysregulated, which only can be done when they are regulated.

I have already made lots of compromises on my hobby.  I used to attend three times a week.  Now I'm down to once a week or less.  I am flexible on our family and her schedule to not go if we are going to do something special.

Remind her of your compromises each time the subject comes up when she is regulated, using "I" statements.  I hear you where you are coming from. keep your new boundary, and ask her for some concessions, when she is regulated.  However, do not go out of your way to rub this in her face, unless she makes it an issue, as it is obviously a sore spot for her.

She actually suggested that she could do my hobby with me at home and when we moved.  We tried that out for a very brief period but she quickly lost interest.  Since she invaded my privacy and looked at some of my text messages with my colleagues she never wants to spend time with them.

I'm glad you tried it.  Since you know she will not engage, offer it up as "I have nothing to hide, you are more than welcome to join me"  which should indicate a willingness of you to see everything that you do and hopefully relieve some of her anxieties.

Take care.

SD

[usagi]

Thanks SaltyDawg,

 

Her son is abusive too?

He is very often verbally and emotionally abusive to the both of us.  Sometimes he will also be physically abusive with slapping and punching.  He becomes dysregulated very easily.  It's usually when he is asked to do something for an adult that he doesn't want to do.  When this happens he becomes abusive.

Early in our relationship I would see some of this behavior and thought that maybe this was just something he was dealing with, some sort of disorder of his own.  Now after seeing more of how she can behave I wonder how much of it is his own issue and how much of it is learned behavior from his mom.

There is a pattern here that I've been trying to figure out how to break.  I saw it play out this past weekend.  Saturday morning my partner told him he needed to clean his bathroom.  It had been several months and it needed a good cleaning.  He immediately said that he wouldn't.  My partner told him all the reasons that it was necessary and that it was his responsibility to contribute to taking care of the house.  Then he starts yelling no and launches into name calling.  "You're a horrible mom!" and "I never want to live with you again!".  So my partner starts to get dysregulated and starts her own name calling.  She threatens to take away his savings.  This enrages her son and he starts slamming doors and screaming "you can't do that!"
Finally he retreats to his bedroom and we go for a walk to help her cool down.  He does clean the bathroom but the rest of the day any requests, please wash your cup and put it in the dishwasher etc, is met with hostility.  After some prodding by his mom about how he's bored and needs to find something to occupy himself, he decides to bake some cookies.  This turns into a mess when he can't find the ingredients he needs.  I try to help out but then he starts yelling and slapping me so I get dysregulated and yell back and stomp around.  At this point my partner leaves the house.  Some more yelling between me and my step son then we both go to bed early.

My thoughts are that I need to step in earlier in this cycle or do something to disrupt it.  I just haven't figured out what yet.

Try not to take it personal at the time she is saying these things.

I know.  I've gotten a much thicker skin from all of this.  I know that I am actually doing a good job of parenting a difficult kid and that I've been very helpful in that way to our family and her.  These comments have less of an impact on me now but I think it's important for me to recognize when I am feeling hurt.  I have sometimes tried to list some of the facts about how I am parenting him to her but she usually doesn't see it.  I do my best work when she isn't around.

When my step son is here the dynamic is much more complex.  He triggers SO easily.  I think I've really learned how to work around it but my partner can be pretty forceful.  She doesn't back down and then the fireworks happen.  Even if she keeps it together when dealing with him I can expect she'll turn on me afterwards.  "You're not setting a good example for him" noting that I tried to break off the relationship this past December.  "You don't treat me well and so neither does he".

When he's not hear it's easier with my partner sometimes.  But then she misses him and can get sort of emotionally distant.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and questions.

[kells76]

There is a pattern here that I've been trying to figure out how to break.  I saw it play out this past weekend.  Saturday morning my partner told him he needed to clean his bathroom.  It had been several months and it needed a good cleaning.  He immediately said that he wouldn't.  My partner told him all the reasons that it was necessary and that it was his responsibility to contribute to taking care of the house.  Then he starts yelling no and launches into name calling.  "You're a horrible mom!" and "I never want to live with you again!".  So my partner starts to get dysregulated and starts her own name calling.  She threatens to take away his savings.  This enrages her son and he starts slamming doors and screaming "you can't do that!"
Finally he retreats to his bedroom and we go for a walk to help her cool down.  He does clean the bathroom but the rest of the day any requests, please wash your cup and put it in the dishwasher etc, is met with hostility.  After some prodding by his mom about how he's bored and needs to find something to occupy himself, he decides to bake some cookies.  This turns into a mess when he can't find the ingredients he needs.  I try to help out but then he starts yelling and slapping me so I get dysregulated and yell back and stomp around.  At this point my partner leaves the house.  Some more yelling between me and my step son then we both go to bed early.

My thoughts are that I need to step in earlier in this cycle or do something to disrupt it.  I just haven't figured out what yet.

Can you remind me how old your SS is?

...

I wonder if "less is more" could change the dynamic.

At that moment when he couldn't find what he needed, did he explicitly ask you for help?

[usagi]

Hey Kells76,

He's 12.

Well...he didn't explicitly ask for help in that case.  I think he said some thing like "where is the salt!?".  So sort of.

The less is more is what I've been trying to do with him.  When he gets upset or is refusing to do something I try to just say once or twice "this is your task" and not engage with him after that.

If he asks for help and is rude about it I tend to just point out that he's being rude or encourage him to ask in a different way.  If he can't then he doesn't get my help.

Thank you

[kells76]

It sounds like at a very basic level, you and your SO agree that his behavior is an issue? I.e., if the only question that was asked was "Is SS12's hitting a problem", both of you would say Yes, we agree that him hitting is a problem?

Do you agree at a more granular level about the issues/causes? Or does the agreement kind of stop there (she says "yes, hitting is a problem, but he only hits because you do blah blah blah")?

How is her relationship with SS12's dad? Do she and he have any kind of agreement/shared perspective about SS12's behaviors?

Trying to find an area of common ground for the two of you to have a united front -- you'll still be in a different role as "stepdad", but there can be ways to say "in Mom and usagi's house, Mom and usagi agree that XYZ. And hey, sure, you can complain to Dad, but he agrees with us."

[usagi]

We definitely agree that his behavior is a problem.  His quick temper and screaming at us, slamming doors, occasional physical violence, all of it.  He's very disrespectful to me and same to his mom whenever he doesn't get his way.

Where we differ is the cause of the behavior.  She seems convinced that it's due to external factor, like with her.  If me and his dad would only set a better example he wouldn't behave like this.  I haven't told her this but I think that part of the issue is seeing the way she reacts.  But really I think that he may be suffering from similar mental heath challenges as she does.

Me being "nicer" to my partner isn't going to solve this.  Likewise my partner isn't going to suddenly treat me with more respect while he's around.  She is quick to blame "men" for all the problems in her life.  Sometimes that includes him.

[kells76]

We definitely agree that his behavior is a problem.  His quick temper and screaming at us, slamming doors, occasional physical violence, all of it.  He's very disrespectful to me and same to his mom whenever he doesn't get his way.

Is there anything in that agreement there that would give some traction for the two of you (at minimum, whether it includes SS12 or not) getting "family therapy" to learn better ways to deal with his behavior?

Or, maybe you can frame this as a "you thing": "Babe, I'm struggling more and more to handle SS12's behavior -- I want to learn better ways to manage it, so if you want to join me, I set up an appointment with Family Therapist on Day/Date. No pressure either way."

Where we differ is the cause of the behavior.  She seems convinced that it's due to external factor, like with her.  If me and his dad would only set a better example he wouldn't behave like this.  I haven't told her this but I think that part of the issue is seeing the way she reacts.  But really I think that he may be suffering from similar mental heath challenges as she does.

That all rings true, so the challenge might be staying in the realm of "both of us agree that the hitting and yelling isn't OK -- let's get some support around that" and not delving into "but why is he hitting", which sounds like a one way ticket to conflict. Maybe some "canned phrases" like "He could be hitting for all kinds of reasons -- let's see what the therapist says", or "Yeah, no matter why he's hitting, I'm glad you and I are on the same page that it is totally inappropriate." The "why" sounds like a rabbit hole; improving your home life may depend on focusing on behaviors, not motivations. You may need to be the emotional leader in those conversations, able to bring things back to "I agree it could be a lot of things -- behavior isn't OK -- glad we're a team -- wonder what the T will suggest".

Me being "nicer" to my partner isn't going to solve this. Likewise my partner isn't going to suddenly treat me with more respect while he's around.  She is quick to blame "men" for all the problems in her life.  Sometimes that includes him.

Agreed.

[usagi]

Unfortunately therapy is not an option in my partner's mind.  They tried some therapy with him some years ago.  They visited several therapists and none of it helped.  Many of them accused my partner of causing the behavior.  So she's pretty sour on the topic.  I've tried to bring it up saying that I'd take care of the details and get him to/from sessions.  No luck.

The "why" is definitely a rabbit hole.  I do my best to avoid that subject as I can and focus on things that we could do together to help.  One thing she's identified is that he acts out when he's got an audience.  So one thing I proposed was to instruct him to do his chores then we leave the house for a bit while he gets it done.  Then he has no one to bounce off of.  She seemed to like that idea.

But I really think I need to figure out a way of stepping in when I see things running off the rails with the two of them.  They both ramp each other up very quickly sometimes.

Thanks Kells76