It’s really bad at the kids’ mom’s house

[kells76]

Last post was here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358217.0

Yesterday was our weeknight with SD18 (well, the parenting plan doesn’t apply any more, but she is sticking to the schedule, which is fine with us). H picked her up and drove her to our place. I was already home and saw the car park but they stayed out there for at least half an hour.

When they came in things seemed ok/normal. Earlier today I checked in with H by text and he said he was pretty emotional about talking with her. He and I finally got a chance to catch up over dinner just now.

Things are worse at Mom’s house than either of us thought. SD18 and Stepdad are no longer on good (or any) terms. It sounds like he has gotten really volatile — rages, yelling, throwing things, breaking things. She tries to deflect it away from SD16 and their younger brother (I think he’s 11, so B11). It’s a 2-3 month cycle. Mom delusionally believes the marriage can be saved but pretends nothing happened after Stepdad’s rages. Mom disappears sporadically and leaves Stepdad as the only adult in the house. Stepdad also drives erratically and rages when he drives. SD18 thinks they should/wants them to divorce. Apparently it started getting this bad during Covid — so, 4 years ago.

The pest issues are worse (there was a significant rat issue in the past — like chewing through bedroom doors). The laundry area is infested with fleas so none of the kids want to do laundry. Last time, SD18 took her laundry to Stepdad’s girlfriend’s place. Yesterday she brought all her laundry here. We suggested she and SD16 could bring a bunch over this weekend.

SD16 (by SD18’s account) is good at “disappearing” during the rages but SD18 worries about what will happen when she (SD18) goes on her 3 month trip in a week or so. B11 can’t/won’t talk about any of it. SD16 also is really sensitive to talking directly about this stuff. She has hinted to me recently that she really wants to get her drivers license so she can drive herself to school, because even though she is ready on time, it “isn’t a priority” to the adults there and she ends up being late which she hates.

SD18 can get riled up so H asked her to try not to antagonize Stepdad (in the sense of confronting/calling him out for raging) — not that it’s her job, but so that she doesn’t get hurt. He told her that at any time, she can bring SD16 and B11 to our place, and that she can call him at any moment and he will help. He reiterated to her that she can move in here (she could still go over there to check on B11).

She reflected on how she finally realized that it’s an abusive household, even though nothing is overt.

H is feeling guilty that he let this happen (yeah, I get that he didn’t do these things, but that is how he is feeling — like he failed to protect them). I’m feeling kind of in shock but also afraid that if I push too hard, it’ll push SD16 away. SD18 I think could handle a direct conversation but I don’t want SD16 to be so overwhelmed that she retreats to her room at Mom’s and feels like H and I were too pushy/didn’t understand.

Even before this, my therapist had suggested she could make a CPS call. I struggle to believe that CPS could help over there, but maybe telling SD18 “a third party was ready to call CPS about your situation” would help SD18 feel validated — to know that yeah, objectively, it is that bad? I have no idea.

I feel like I may need to step over the line of “hey, stay neutral, you’re the stepparent, just listen and be positive and don’t put adult stuff on the kids” and have a straightforward talk with SD18? Yeah, it shouldn’t be the case that an adult is going to an 18 year old saying “would you want me to call CPS, do you think it would help based on what you’ve experienced” but we were never given a normal situation. She shouldn’t be the one H and I are asking about “so how is it over there” but we haven’t had any written communication (text/email) with Mom in… months?

We plan to offer to drive SD16 to school even though it would add ~45 minutes to either of our commutes. SD16 was also really worried about if Mom could pay for her extracurricular that she loves, so we’ll offer to cover that. She is a tough one to connect to directly so we will just try the oblique approach of trying to take care of what she says she is worried about.

SD18 leaves in 9 days. I guess it’s now or never.

[ForeverDad]

SD16 has hinted to me recently that she really wants to get her drivers license so she can drive herself to school, because even though she is ready on time, it “isn’t a priority” to the adults there and she ends up being late which she hates.

When I already had custody and was seeking majority time,  S11 had about 20 or so tardies the year before and 19 of them were on mother's time.  That was listed in the court's decision as one of the factors granting me majority time during the school year.  Of course, son was not of an age to drive so he had no way to "vote with his feet or vehicle".

It's a tough loyalty quandary when there's a preteen that could be left behind, especially legally.

[Notwendy]

I get how you and your H feel and yet, whatever you do can make a difference. I was distanced from my BPD mother's FOO for some time. They thought she was a bit odd but didn't fully know what was going on. Out of the blue, they contacted me and apologized for not intervening when we were kids. They had figured some things out and put the pieces together and realized there were times when they thought something was off but didn't know.

They felt badly about it- but I assured them that there was no way they could have known the whole of it. Nobody could have known. Denial is also a part of BPD and my parents would have refuted any suggestion that there might be some issues. We had our basic needs met- we had clothes, food, - we'd not have come to the attention of teachers or other adults.

The best of this is that they are supportive to us now. Not materially- we are adults, we don't need that but they are supportive emotionally and want to be in contact with us and even as a middle age adult- this means a lot to me.

It's not possible to go back and change the past but I encourage you to do what you feel you want to do now. You and your H have been a support already. I don't think there's an age limit for the impact an adult can make in a child's life by being "there for them".

[livednlearned]

Oh geez. It's sad that SD18 has this meaningful trip planned and is feeling like she's a parent who is leaving her siblings to fend for themselves. What a challenging home life for them over there.

Ok, someone's gotta say it: your spidey senses were right.  

This makes the sticker thing with stepdad even weirder. "I'm covertly abusing the kids. Here, have a sticker."

I wouldn't feel great about collaborating with SD18 about how to proceed but I don't see how to avoid it ... she isn't going to feel ok leaving if things escalate for her siblings, and if BPD mom catches on that you and H are getting involved, wouldn't that lead to an escalation that negatively impacts the kids?

The silver lining is that SD18 opened up and felt she could talk things over with H. Big!

It seems like the tricky thing is to offer workable solutions to SD16 and B11without drawing any attention to the problems, at least if one goal is to support SD18's opportunity to travel in a week or so.

Any thoughts on where BPD mom goes when she disappears?

[kells76]

It's a tough loyalty quandary when there's a preteen that could be left behind, especially legally.

I think you're right that the loyalty bind/sense of obligation is a huge part of the dynamic. SD18 could maybe mentally handle living with us and then going over there to check on things. SD16 could not at this time, I don't think.

Maybe the core issue is -- H, myself, and SD18 are all kind of aligned (there is a huge problem, solutions/intervention are needed) but SD16 is so withdrawn that I fear she would still have the loyalty alignment with Mom's house. So instead of H, myself, SD18, and SD16 being able to team up to help B11, there's a sense that SD16 isn't in a place to handle bright light shining on the reality of how bad it is at Mom's. I don't like "splitting" the kids (SD18 is "capable, responsible, can handle problem solving with adults" and SD16 "needs help, is a child, isn't part of the problem solving team") and would rather approach it as a united team, where all 4 of us are "equal" (in a sense) participants in problem solving, not "3 of us and then we have to help SD16".

[kells76]

I get how you and your H feel and yet, whatever you do can make a difference. I was distanced from my BPD mother's FOO for some time. They thought she was a bit odd but didn't fully know what was going on. Out of the blue, they contacted me and apologized for not intervening when we were kids. They had figured some things out and put the pieces together and realized there were times when they thought something was off but didn't know.

How old were you when they called to apologize? How did it go for you?

They felt badly about it- but I assured them that there was no way they could have known the whole of it. Nobody could have known. Denial is also a part of BPD and my parents would have refuted any suggestion that there might be some issues. We had our basic needs met- we had clothes, food, - we'd not have come to the attention of teachers or other adults.

I feel like I should have known, because I know that denial is a part of the NPD-BPD family dynamic: "Not only is nothing wrong with us, we're a superior family admired by all".

[kells76]

Ok, someone's gotta say it: your spidey senses were right. 

This makes the sticker thing with stepdad even weirder. "I'm covertly abusing the kids. Here, have a sticker."

And after all the work I've been doing on "hey, just because I feel like this seemingly normal interaction has deeper meaning, doesn't mean it does". Well, it all did. Not excited to be right.

I wouldn't feel great about collaborating with SD18 about how to proceed but I don't see how to avoid it ... she isn't going to feel ok leaving if things escalate for her siblings, and if BPD mom catches on that you and H are getting involved, wouldn't that lead to an escalation that negatively impacts the kids?

I asked my T for a last minute appointment today to talk about that. My T was the one who first suggested she could call CPS for me -- that was before I learned all this. I hate that SD18 seems to be in this position of me and H, the adults, going to her and asking "do you want to do this, do you want that to happen, can you ask B11 to do XYZ" -- it reinforces the "you're the parent there" dynamic but then again as much as I wish it were different, it isn't. That is how it is over there. Mom has abdicated responsibility and Stepdad is erratic. There are no functional adults in that house besides SD18. Sure, H should be coparenting with Mom but that is nowhere near happening. It isn't an option.

The silver lining is that SD18 opened up and felt she could talk things over with H. Big!

There was a lot more she shared, not related to the home issues; apparently this friend she's going to visit is actually her girlfriend (soon to be boyfriend, I guess this SO wants to transition and SD18 plans to help with the hormone shots) and they've been together for a year. She did show H a lot of their texts and so she and H talked about communication in relationships. It seems like an OK/mostly healthy relationship based on what H saw, and it's good that SD18 trusted H enough to show him the texts. SD18 now wants to transition as well. Navigating what all of that means is kind of small potatoes at the moment compared to the bigger crisis at Mom's. But at some point we'll have to figure that out.

It seems like the tricky thing is to offer workable solutions to SD16 and B11without drawing any attention to the problems, at least if one goal is to support SD18's opportunity to travel in a week or so.

SD16 has mentioned wanting to take a long trip this summer to visit cousins. I'm not thrilled about that; it's Mom's sister's place, and Mom's sister is into unstable relationships, but I'm hopeful that at least there isn't erratic violence there? And I can empathize with wanting to escape to somewhere that -- relatively speaking -- is safer and more stable.

I don't know what to do about B11 besides work with SD18 (and I think maybe that's an area SD16 could feel comfortable problemsolving in?) to make sure he has a phone, has his grandma's number in the phone (she is local) and maybe has some school friends he can stay with.

If I were to suggest to SD18 that she encourage B11 to talk to school staff, then I feel like I would need to give her a heads up that they are mandatory reporters and that depending on what he discloses, they may be required to make a CPS report. I guess because I would not want her to think "oh, kells76 suggested that B11 do XYZ, and then all that means is that school staff will make sure he has lunches and clean clothes" and then they get blindsided with a CPS visit.

Any thoughts on where BPD mom goes when she disappears?

At SD16's school play, Mom had a +1. Also, when SD18 was finishing her "high school at community college" program, Mom was apparently also taking an art class at the community college? I've also heard rumors of Mom's "art studio" that is somewhere besides the house.

...

I am wondering about asking SD18 if she thinks Stepdad's girlfriend is aware of the volatility. I think my reason would be to get a better picture of the situation and possible outcomes, because if GF doesn't know about the volatility, then there could be escalation if Stepdad feels like "his secret is about to get revealed" to GF.

[Notwendy]

How old were you when they called to apologize? How did it go for you?

I feel like I should have known, because I know that denial is a part of the NPD-BPD family dynamic: "Not only is nothing wrong with us, we're a superior family admired by all".

How old- like recently- middle age. That is how well things were hidden when we were kids. As I said- it wasn't physical abuse or neglect. We had all we needed materially.

There were incidents but these relatives couldn't put them in context with the overall impression of our family. They knew BPD mother was odd but they thought she was eccentric.

But as they became more involved with her in her elder years- they began to see more of her behavior and the times where there were clues - where they could see we were afraid of her or she did something that didn't seem OK began to make sense.

So how could these family members make a difference even now?  I don't "need" parents in the way a child does but I think in general, not having the kind of affirmation from a parent leave a blank somehow. You have already filled the role of a motherly person for these children and that is huge. It may not seem like doing enough by your standards but if someone doesn't have that- it still makes a difference.

Whether or not this is deliberate gaslighting- growing up, it's confusing as we hear the explanations that our mothers tell us and often that is to blame us for our failure at not achieving the kind of relationship we wish we could have with a mother. So now, even decades later, they can provide some clarity and validation for the misperceptions.

[livednlearned]

I hate that SD18 seems to be in this position of me and H, the adults, going to her and asking "do you want to do this, do you want that to happen, can you ask B11 to do XYZ" -- it reinforces the "you're the parent there" dynamic but then again as much as I wish it were different, it isn't. That is how it is over there. Mom has abdicated responsibility and Stepdad is erratic. There are no functional adults in that house besides SD18. Sure, H should be coparenting with Mom but that is nowhere near happening. It isn't an option.

It's kinda but not quite similar to what happened when SD27 was casually using suicidal ideation with her friends, siblings, and H. My therapist at the time said she believed that with BPD, suicidal ideation can accidentally become deadly because when a little suicidal ideation gets positive results from caring people, then maybe more suicidal ideation will work even better. From the time I met SD27 (at 15, turning 16) her chronic suicidal ideation began to morph into something useful, if that makes sense. So, she was chronically suicidal and that was real, and she was also seeing how it could be wielded to handle her life in an unhealthy way, basically using it to make sure she was never alone. Mostly by telling people not to tell anyone that she felt suicidal, sort of to make sure no one talked about it with each other and potentially escalate it beyond what she actually wanted, which was to have people keep her from being alone 24/7.

The one person put in an impossible situation was SD29, who didn't know that H was in contact with SD27's psychiatrist and was fully functioning in parent mode, with some success. He got SD27's agreement that he could talk to her psychiatrist and therapist, and together they set up a safety plan that included him driving to stay with her until she stabilized.

Not that it's the same as your circumstance ... only that it's a crisis where there is a role for you, even if it's more of a flank role with some direct parts. It's the one time when I felt like it was ok to cross my own self-imposed line and talk to SD29 directly about what I knew and thought and frankly, cared about. I wanted her to know that H was involved, and SD27 was agreeing to his support, so if she felt ok about it, SD29 could be a graduate student in an admittedly bad relationship and focus on herself without worrying if her sister was going to kill herself when SD29 didn't respond to a text in .03 seconds.

In my case, H's tunnel vision and way of managing SD27 was decent, it was more that he wasn't focusing on how SD29 was impacted. That's where I got involved and I don't regret it.

I did make clear to myself and to SD29 what my intention was. It took a while to get really, really clear about that for myself, especially because SD27's suicidal ideation and behaviors were not (are not) neutral for me. In the end, my intention was to make sure someone was supporting SD29, even if it meant going against a family-secret type vibe where no one could discuss SD27 suicidal ideation with each other.

Maybe with SD18 your intention is: "You get to be a young adult and go do your thing. There is a plan and it's for us to put in place. Heads up that it might make things worse before they get better because that household needs sunlight and it will take some planning to figure out what that looks like in the short and long term."

Meaning, like you said -- mandatory reporters have already talked about calling CPS and the situation is getting attention (you don't have to say where since that's privileged info and maybe it's better for her to not know? Idk).

With SD29, my conversation was about how to handle SD27's suicidal ideation in a handful of different ways, with all lanes pointing back to me and H shouldering responsibility. She particularly appreciated the idea that some stuff needs sunshine on it and that means we have to communicate. One thing I have said often to SD29 is "It's important that SD27 is ok." I think that has been helpful for SD29 to hear because she loves her sister as challenging as she is. What I've also said is "It's important you're ok, too." That is what was driving my intention when I crossed my line about what to say and how much.

I might be projecting a lot of my situation onto you so that's probably in the mix here  

But being step parent to a blended family dynamic when one family member isn't safe and the rest are shouldering a lot of responsibility beyond their capacity -- that feels very familiar.

I don't know if there are any right solutions, only retrospect and trusting your instincts. I mean, we're wired for crisis so may as well recognize the silver lining that you are more likely to handle this kind of stuff better than most, at least people who aren't in a chronic state of vigilance waiting for that darn shoe to drop.

 


EDIT to add: I think if you are clear about your intention, if SD18 wants to, she'll open up more and you'll be great in that moment. One of the things I notice about being a step parent is that it's a bit easier to stay focused on the kid. Whereas with my kid, sometimes I slip out of that because our relationship is so hard-wired into me. As a stepparent, you can get the higher elevation view with a bit more perspective. Even if you can't see the whole thing in its entirety, we see other perspectives that the bio parent may be too flooded to see. This works for H too. He doesn't always know how to handle the thing, but he can see the thing very clearly. Whereas not so much for me, especially when it's a time of high tension.

[ForeverDad]

There was a lot more she shared, not related to the home issues; apparently this friend she's going to visit is actually her girlfriend (soon to be boyfriend, I guess this SO wants to transition and SD18 plans to help with the hormone shots) and they've been together for a year... SD18 now wants to transition as well. Navigating what all of that means is kind of small potatoes at the moment compared to the bigger crisis at Mom's. But at some point we'll have to figure that out.

As I recall there was a trans issue in the past with one of the girls.  Combine that with the extensive discord and chaos virtually her whole life, my spidey sense is tingling that it would be wise for her to have a therapist help her figure out *why* transitioning is being pondered.

My personal impression is that there are other issues, most likely a ton of FOO history, that has impacted her perception of herself and influencing her life choices now as an adult.  I guess my perspective is that if she had lived a childhood free from all the push-pull of her home environment, would she be contemplating such life altering changes?  This can impact whether she could have children, some processes can't be undone.

I don't know whether any studies have been made as to why some people choose such life changes.  Maybe there are studies out there explaining some factors why (or some indication why) alternative lifestyles are chosen?

[kells76]

Quick update.

Talked with my therapist. She confirmed that this is very reportable. She raised a concern that if we were to shelter B11 at all, it might escalate things with Stepdad (perceived humiliation, or exposure of failure). If SD16, for example, after SD18 goes on her trip, were to decide on her own to bring B11 here, that's one thing, but if we were to tell SD16 "you need to bring B11 over with you", that might be another. Taking both kids to a neutral place (a friend's house, or B11's grandma's house) might be better. T said it was really good that SD18 trusted H with all her disclosures and it sounded like SD18 had been "testing the waters" with us for a while. She also agreed it might be good to include both kids in any discussions H and I have (versus just including SD18). T also asked, before I brought it up, about if Girlfriend was aware of this. I said I didn't know but worried that if she didn't know but it got around to her, that might also escalate Stepdad (humiliation/exposure).

I also called a local DV hotline. They confirmed that there are red flags and it would not be overreacting to report this. They aren't mandatory reporters, though (it's a confidential hotline), so if necessary SD18 could call them for advice/support and it wouldn't generate an automatic report. They could listen to SD16 as a minor but couldn't work with her the same way. Confirmed that in our state, violence around or in front of kids is taken seriously. They suggested educating both kids about what mandatory reporting is and who are mandatory reporters.

[kells76]

Kids are with us for the weekend. Talked with SD18 a lot, will talk all 4 of us together tomorrow.

She doesn't want to have any kind of relationship with Stepdad any more and is only interacting with him because of B11. They rarely talk.

SD18 did tell Stepdad's girlfriend about his rages, but GF "has really different ideas of what's normal" and didn't do anything with the info. SD18 is unsure if GF told Stepdad that she (SD18) disclosed his rages.

He does not currently rage at a person and does not seem to specifically select someone's belongings to throw/break -- more random/whatever is at hand. He does not rage at the cat but will "play" with it rough and if SD16 asks him to stop, he gets offended.

SD18 isn't sure that B11's grandma (Stepdad's mom) is neutral enough. I recommended she put some friends' parents' phone numbers in B11's phone, then text those parents asking them to keep an eye out for messages from B11. He generally eats enough and SD18 feels ok with reminding Mom to get groceries.

SD18 felt the most scared when Stepdad was driving erratically. She said he locked the doors so they couldn't leave the car. I told her that blocking an exit is DV and she reluctantly agreed. H and I will try to take over as much driving as possible.

We are getting a "flea fogger" treatment tomorrow (for use in Mom's laundry area) and will go over instructions with the kids. If that doesn't work, we're ok with SD16 doing B11's laundry here.

She is ok with moving in with us when she gets back from her trip but worries about B11. We told her the door is always open here for all 3 of them as long as him being here (to visit, not to live) wasn't escalating to Stepdad. She thought it might be ok.
We agreed that ideally she could get her own place and maybe SD16 could move in with her. Yes, I get that both the kids "could" move in here but I think there is still a pretty big social/cultural hurdle for SD16, plus what it might communicate to Mom (a lot for SD16 to handle).

I filled her in on mandatory reporting vs anonymous hotline and let her know I called a local DV hotline. I plan to give her the number tomorrow. Also let SD18 know that we don't currently plan to call CPS but may have to if things escalate (and that 2 separate trained persons consider this call-worthy). She understands.

Both kids are still verbally committed to transitioning, surgery, etc. So, more conversations in the pipes.

They were great with my parents when we all had dinner together earlier -- engaged and present and grateful. Both seemed talkative and mostly happy.

Will see how the rest of the weekend goes...

[hellosun]

All the best to you this weekend, kells76! I’m really glad your therapist recommended taking an open and honest approach with SD18. It sounds like you are doing a great job of providing the kids with an environment that shows them what “normal” feels like, and a relationship where they are learning to build trust.

[Notwendy]

I am glad the kids have you and your H.

As to their wanting to surgically transition. It's such an emotionally charged topic it seems almost impossible to discuss it. But from the position of the girls growing up with a disordered mother as a female role model, and a disfunctional family dynamic with their step father, I think that is a reason to have caution about a permanent surgical decision.

Bringing up the family dysfunction would also be difficult. You don't want them to dismiss you as being critical of their mother or influenced by politics. It really comes down to caution about making a permanent decision (any permanent decision) based on what may be environmental and emotional influences and emotions that might change in the future. Hopefully the girls would be willing to wait until they are older to consider someting like that.

[livednlearned]

They were great with my parents when we all had dinner together earlier -- engaged and present and grateful. Both seemed talkative and mostly happy.

I notice this with my stepkids too. The nuttiest stuff (i.e. abusive) can be happening and somehow they are able to compartmentalize. There have been times when I thought they would want to talk about things or process with us what was going on, but that doesn't seem to be how it goes. Gratitude is expressed but not always verbalized.

More often when there are crises with BPD mom it's one of the kids confiding 1:1.

I do wonder at times if growing up in a BPD family creates a sense that walking on eggshells is baseline except when things go too far with the dysfunction which to healthy people would feel extreme. It's possible your kids look back and think "everything was great until stepdad started dating someone while married" instead of looking at the full picture for what it was even before then.

Last time SD29 came to visit she defended her mom when H mentioned SS24 was having a hard time living there and was trying to find a way to become independent, which BPD mom seems to be doing her best to prevent. I don't get it.

It doesn't seem to be a trajectory where they recognize abuse and then have boundaries. It's messier than that. I try to remember that when any trash talk comes up about their step dad or BPD mom. My intention has to always be "what's best here for ________. what might help them manage this situation." But inside, I have to admit that does take restraint on my part.

[GaGrl]

I can not imagine the internal conflict and process of transitioning that an adolescent must go through. Our life-long friends have a graduating high school senior who has decided to graduate as (male name) rather than (female name). The entire family -- parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles -- are refusing to use the preferred name. I feel helpless, in that I love this family, yet recognize that they have far right views that I don't share.

Does S18 plan to stay in your local area after her trip? Attend university locally? Might it be better for S18 to live further away?

It is very concerning that so much an emotional burden weighs on S18, in terms of the other siblings' safety and needs.

[ForeverDad]

The nuttiest stuff (i.e. abusive) can be happening and somehow they are able to compartmentalize. There have been times when I thought they would want to talk about things or process with us what was going on, but that doesn't seem to be how it goes. Gratitude is expressed but not always verbalized.

I do wonder at times if growing up in a BPD family creates a sense that walking on eggshells is baseline except when things go too far with the dysfunction which to healthy people would feel extreme. It's possible your kids look back and think "everything was great until stepdad started dating someone while married" instead of looking at the full picture for what it was even before then.

Here and there over the years I've seen comments that sometimes it's likely the kids don't know how to express their thoughts... can't verbalize the words, especially if they're youths in the midst of chaos.

[Notwendy]

Here and there over the years I've seen comments that sometimes it's likely the kids don't know how to express their thoughts... can't verbalize the words, especially if they're youths in the midst of chaos.

I think it's that we don't have a comparison point for "normal"- we may cognitively know that our BPD mothers aren't "normal" but it's our normal emotionally. We are used to it in a way. We've been coping with it.

Walking on eggshells was a part of that "normal".

[kells76]

H picked up SD16 from Mom's yesterday morning; Mom & Stepdad weren't there. SD16 let him come in while she got her stuff and H said it was really bad in there -- totally filthy, old food left out, dishes piled up.

H and I are taking over driving SD16 to school 4/5 days. He texted Mom to give her a heads up and Mom actually sounded grateful. SD16 is still defending Mom ("She's just soooo busy, it's really hard for her to keep up with laundry and drive Stepdad to work and me and B11 to school"). That's fine, I get it that a 16 year old might need to believe that her mom "would actually care and be competent if she just wasn't so busy".

So much for Stepdad being a feminist though. Guess he can't get himself to work, clean the house, or do his own laundry. Rant over 

SD16 told me on the drive to school today that there is no doorknob on her door, so she "locks" it with a pair of scissors, but people can still get in. I offered to help her install a doorknob.

H wants to make the CPS call. I am scared. I know we should but I am afraid it'll set off Stepdad. SD18 leaves for 3 months on Saturday so the timing is not great. And I think (given that we just offered to drive SD16 to school, and cover all transition transportation so the kids aren't in a car driven by Stepdad), Mom and Stepdad would know who made the call.

I suggested to H that we talk to my T about it.

SD18 knows we may have to call at some point, but fears that B11 would feel like she betrayed him, and/or wouldn't understand why it had to happen. SD16 doesn't know (I think) that we may have to call.

I'm fine with the "making the call" part, but worried about Stepdad's response.

[kells76]

Documenting stuff as I remember it.

We gave SD18 a real sword (3/4 size) for her last birthday (she's really into history). She was sorting thru stuff in her room this past weekend, figuring out what she wanted to take back to & keep at Mom's during her trip. She wanted to bring her sword to Mom's so that B11 could take care of it. DH told her he didn't think it was a good idea because he "didn't want anything bad to happen with it" over there. SD18 agreed so the sword is staying at our house.

Just trying not to forget stuff that might be important.

[Turkish]

Even tolerating exposure to DV is a felony (for mom). If your H knows about it, then it's possible he could lose custody. It happened to the bother of a friend at work.

The pests are gross, and I would think reportable, as well as being impossible to hide.

Flea foggers need a later dose to kill the fleas which will hatch from eggs later. My mom ran a puppy mill in our suburban home. You could see and feel the  fleas jumping on your legs.

[kells76]

Had another last-minute meeting with my T last night, with H, because H is leaning towards wanting to report.

She recommended including the kids in the process; not to the level of "you can decide if we make the report or not", but giving them a heads up about "so if we were to report, it could be this day or that day, and it might go like such and such". Basically not letting them decide but not hiding it from them.

She also recommended calling DHS/CPS and describing a "hypothetical" situation to learn more about their processes/approaches. I did that this afternoon; more on that later.

Finally, she was curious if there was anyone left in our small community who might have Stepdad's ear. I reached out to 3 people today and all of them had oddly similar stories: they decided to go out of contact with Stepdad a few years back due to disgust over his lack of integrity (one did try to keep in touch but was rebuffed). And, in the last 4-5 years, none of them noticed any overt red flags. So it tells me that Mom/Stepdad, whether on purpose or not, isolated themselves and the kids from this former community, and also were able to hide the dynamic well enough that friends and acquaintances didn't know it was going on. There is one person left who might still be in touch with Stepdad, so I will talk to H about him today (the person is a former friend of H's who took Mom's side during the divorce, but who generally seemed to be a decent enough person). If that person does still have a relationship with Stepdad, I may ask my T what her idea was for that involvement.

...

Called DHS today and asked what their response/support would be for a "hypothetical" scenario of DV plus neglect, where the DV is a stepdad yelling, behaving/driving erratically, and then throwing and breaking things while the kids are around, and the neglect involves infestations and an oldest child taking care of younger children.

"Assignable" in that DV scenario is: Stepdad throwing and breaking things around the kids.
Not "assignable": him driving erratically

"Assignable" in the neglect scenario is: rats -- yes 100%; fleas -- it depends
Not "assignable": 18 year old or 16 year old taking care of younger kid(s)

The DV stuff would likely involve a safety plan for Stepdad but nothing "assignable" on Mom. The safety plan might involve him having supervised time with the kids (could be Grandma if she is neutral enough). Typically, if the other adult is trying to leave the relationship, there is a lot of financial support, but because Mom is not inclined to leave, the "self sufficiency" services might not come into play.

Infestation stuff: plan would involve working with Mom to clean stuff up. In the past they have offered paying for a hotel while the home is exterminated, then providing a dumpster for more clean up, and a "family coach" if the logistics of all of that are too overwhelming. It is generally not "my way or the highway" from DHS -- if Mom is concerned that the landlords will see an exterminator truck and dumpster, then as long as she offers another solution, DHS can go with that.

The kids are really, really, really concerned that their cat at Mom's house (which the landlords don't allow) might get taken or that the landlords would get told about it. DHS said they don't generally contact landlords, and even if a cat is involved, they probably won't bring it up unless the infestation/cleanliness issue is directly cat related (cat poo and pee). They recommended getting the cat certified as an emotional support animal.

DHS said that given what I told them in this "hypothetical" scenario, it would get a 24 hour response time. They encouraged me to report. I haven't yet but will talk to H tonight. We are with both kids tomorrow so we need to talk to them then.

[Turkish]

That's a lot of good info. How do you feel about it?

I do recommend the electrocution rat trap. $50 was expensive where I live, but is reusable and clean.

[kells76]

That's a lot of good info. How do you feel about it?

Still totally torqued out.

I did also call the local humane society yesterday to see if they can temporarily house the kids' cat in case it gets to that point. They can for up to 6 weeks as long as we work thru the local DV center, so I called them, and they said that no case # is needed to initiate that process. So hopefully that helps the kids relax about the cat being safe. Or, if Mom accepts help with pest exterminators, that gets the cat out of the spotlight ahead of time.

May need to put in one more "hypothetical" call with DHS today -- Stepdad works at a university and I don't know if/how a DHS safety plan would impact his employment. It's not like "I want to protect him from his choices" but it would be bad for the kids if he lost his job or had to change jobs.

H and I driving SD16 to school is working so far (3 days in). She is mostly talkative on the drive in.

I pick up SD18 this afternoon and then the 4 of us need to talk at home because of the 6 persons/groups (half mandatory reporters, half not) I've talked about this with, every single one has said we need to report.

Please pray for us. IDK how the kids will take it.

[Pook075]

Please pray for us. IDK how the kids will take it.

Prayers sent!

I've stayed quiet here because I don't have any practical advice.  I will say, however, that protecting the kids is the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS.  I can only imagine what a wreck you are going through this, and the eventual blowback has to be super stressful. 

Maybe this will help.  The late pastor Charles Stanley, he gave a seminar for new pastors several years ago.  In his message, he said that the most important thing to learn as a Christian, the greatest life lesson from his career, is to do whatever God tells us regardless of the circumstances....and then let God deal with all the consequences. 

It may not make sense to us at the time, but there's a bigger plan in motion that we can't see and God is always working in our favor.  So while you can't control this situation, trust that He can and He's already many steps ahead of you.

[kells76]

We made the call tonight at 6pm, the kids wanted to be on it and share their experiences for the report. So it was me, H, SD18, & SD16.

They did disclose some more stuff -- apparently Stepdad would "make them drinks" that did have some alcohol in them, and the kids knew there would be a bit, but after agreeing to try a drink with only a bit of alcohol, he would make the drinks with more liquor than the kids thought or wanted, and not tell them. The kids would feel tipsy when they never wanted or agreed to that.

The kids had to go back to Mom's around 7:30. We all agreed that them telling B11 that some people might ask him questions at school was ok and could help him, so the kids did that.

We also agreed that I would give Mom a heads up text that "just me" made the call -- hoping that she would be in a "help me, I'm a victim" place and accept support.

Immediately after I sent that, I got a "I have no idea what you're talking about, what did they tell you" text, and a couple minutes later, SD18 called me, scared because Mom & Stepdad were so angry with her.

I told her to get herself and SD16 and B11 in a bedroom together. She did and I told her I was driving over and would park around the corner. That was probably ~9:30?

She said that SD16 & B11 were scared but ok. They are still at Mom's house. She got in the car and was crying and so mad at herself for "messing everything up". Mom and Stepdad are catastrophizing ("Mom will have to drop out of school, they will take B11 away, people will lose their jobs") and blaming SD18: "you should have just told us how you were feeling, we could have had a family meeting, you should have given me a chance to listen to you". SD18 feels so guilty and like she wrecked everything.

Mom is texting her asking what to expect in the process.

SD18 wanted to call the hotline back and ask them to pull back the report. I told her she could call, I didn't know what would happen or what they were allowed to do, but it would be important to share her thoughts and concerns with them. She did call and got some info -- they will email her the status of the report. She wants to share that with Mom.

H and I have tried to just listen and validate and occasionally bring some reality in. She feels so responsible to "fix this" before she goes on her trip.

After an hour or two she was calmer and more able to process the info that even if I/we hadn't made the call tonight, it had to happen soon -- it was going to happen within days -- because my T thought it needed to be reported soon. SD18 was able to understand that, I think.

She asked if she could tell them that actually I was the one who made the report. I said yes, throw me under the bus, and my T as well. That seemed to help.

I am scared. H is supposed to pick up SD16 at Mom's tomorrow morning for school and I have no idea what will happen. I'm ok if the adults are angry with us but am terrified that this will undo all the progress we made with trust with SD16.

I am also scared that Stepdad will escalate. I think both he and Mom perceive this as a major betrayal.

Mosaic assessment for that situation before tonight was a 6/10 with comment "situations like this often escalate".

I wish that I could have directed Mom and Stepdad's anger at me, not the kids.

[Notwendy]

You did the right thing for the kids, Kells.
Consider the possibility that there's more that the kids didn't tell you. They told you enough.
If it escalates- there's more evidence for their behavior.

Thankfully, the kids have your and your H's support- that's big.

[GaGrl]

You absolutely did the right thing, kells. It was inevitable, so better that it be done before S18 as not available.

My sister was a mandated reporter and always agonized when she made a report -- except the time she saw bruises and cigarette burns on an elementary age child.

[kells76]

Thank you both. Agonizing is right.

H was able to pick up SD16 and take her to school ok this morning.

SD18 is still at our place in her room. I took today off of work. SD18 wants to head back to Mom's sometime and talk with Mom. I said I could drive her over.

Have a T appointment this afternoon.

[livednlearned]

kells76, does SD18 know that you and H were already suspecting something wasn't right? It seems like SD18 is thinking that her opening up to H (and you) led to this. Does she understand that this thing was starting to unravel (like this stuff does) and was probably going to end badly one way or another?

It's so similar to the choice to leave an abusive relationship. Do you wait for the very very worst thing or do you go when it's super bad, before the very very worst thing happens.

I suspect mom was totally blind-sided that SD18 was hurting about what was going on and not confiding to her, after years trying to enmesh.

Your T will be super helpful and I'm glad you'll see her tonight. It also seems like an opportunity for SD18 to learn how drama triangles work since it's so ... overt here. She's asking if you will volunteer to be perpetrator so she can be, what? Rescuer?