(Quiet) Shoutout to the Neurodivergents on this forum

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi all,

It's been a while since I last visited this place. A lot has happened during the last months.

While looking around on this forum, a lot of times we partners of pwBPD are seen as co-dependent. I can understand this sentiment, especially if we have been with multiple cluster-Bs in our life. However, whenever I read about co-dependency, I often fail to identify with a lot a things I read about it.

I was late-diagnosed with ADHD a few years ago, and currently my therapist is suggesting I might also be showing high autistic traits, and I should even attempt to seek an autism diagnosis. I read a lot through other groups of neurodivergent people, and there is one common theme, that neurodivergents just keep ending up in cluster-B relationships repeatedly for some reason, and a lot of us are really frustrated about this. Also, there is a very common theme around abusive behavior that happens during childhood, mobbing etc.

However, from what I found I am not sure if the dynamics between neurodivergents and cluster-Bs in general and neurotypical and cluster-Bs are always comparable. At least I am seeing a lot of dynamics that neurotypical and cluster-B relationships might lack. For example, I am constantly questioning if I am interpreting some situation correctly. I am so often confused by social interactions, that I am just very unsure what to make of it. In addition, I have an extreme high level of lateral thinking, which also seems to be common for neurodivergents. Lateral thinking means, that I typically don't have one single interpretation of any kind of situation but multiple parallel interpretations, that I all view simultaneously. One might be dominant, but that doesn't really mean I disregard the others.

While lateral thinking can be really helpful in some situations, I noticed it also makes me highly vulnerable to some practices of evading accountability. "I didn't hurt you, you are just to sensitive." Yeah, I already considered that possibility as part of my lateral thinking, now I will really doubt if I picked the right dominant interpretation. "I am just telling the truth, it's your fault that you feel hurt." Yeah, great, it's the truth, and now I am also questioning if I am justified in feeling hurt. Both of these have to do a lot with the way I constantly see the world and naturally question myself. But it feels really awful when these traits are abused, as I definitely did not build sufficient defenses against this type of behavior (but I am currently learning).

In combination with some light alexithymia and emotional hyper-reactivity and hyper-empathy it gets even worse. For me my alexithymia means that I am constantly very physically feel my emotions as bodily sensations, up to a point they quite often become painful. But I don't usually know my emotions naturally, which means I have to actively interpret my bodily sensations. Why is my body currently feeling this way? When did this sensation start? In which other moments did I have a similar feeling in my body and how would I label these situations? Etc. That opens a lot of possibilities for easily getting me to doubt if I am currently interpreting myself correctly, because I have extremely misinterpreted myself before.

On the other hand, I also found that my traits seem to make some things much easier for me. We had some very extreme troubles a while ago, where I had to grey-rock my uBPDw for a while to protect myself emotionally. I was really surprised because it was so easy for me to just drop any sign of emotional reaction to her attempts to suck me into her emotional conundrums. She told me it felt extremely distressing for her, and I feel sorry for doing this to her, but it was just a necessary boundary I had to enforce for a while. But I was easily able to do it, even though we almost finally (instead of just temporarily) broke up over this situation.

Also, what I found that especially neurodivergents with ADHD seem to have a very similar fast relationship style to cluster-B where we just feel so intensely, that we kind of skip a lot of important relationship steps.

Are there any other neurodivergents on this forum, and what is your experience with these issues? To which problems can you relate and what does feel differently to you.

I might add that we are currently in the process of getting autism diagnoses for our children as well. That has also given me a lot of food for thought lately. I definitely lack a lot of defenses and awareness that I would need to keep out of cluster-B relationships or even to notice I am getting into one. But I really want to help my children to build these defenses and awareness so they can avoid trouble in their relationships. But I am really unsure on how to approach this.

[Steppenwolf]

Hi all,

It's been a while since I last visited this place. A lot has happened during the last months.

While looking around on this forum, a lot of times we partners of pwBPD are seen as co-dependent. I can understand this sentiment, especially if we have been with multiple cluster-Bs in our life. However, whenever I read about co-dependency, I often fail to identify with a lot a things I read about it.

I was late-diagnosed with ADHD a few years ago, and currently my therapist is suggesting I might also be showing high autistic traits, and I should even attempt to seek an autism diagnosis. I read a lot through other groups of neurodivergent people, and there is one common theme, that neurodivergents just keep ending up in cluster-B relationships repeatedly for some reason, and a lot of us are really frustrated about this. Also, there is a very common theme around abusive behavior that happens during childhood, mobbing etc.

However, from what I found I am not sure if the dynamics between neurodivergents and cluster-Bs in general and neurotypical and cluster-Bs are always comparable. At least I am seeing a lot of dynamics that neurotypical and cluster-B relationships might lack. For example, I am constantly questioning if I am interpreting some situation correctly. I am so often confused by social interactions, that I am just very unsure what to make of it. In addition, I have an extreme high level of lateral thinking, which also seems to be common for neurodivergents. Lateral thinking means, that I typically don't have one single interpretation of any kind of situation but multiple parallel interpretations, that I all view simultaneously. One might be dominant, but that doesn't really mean I disregard the others.

While lateral thinking can be really helpful in some situations, I noticed it also makes me highly vulnerable to some practices of evading accountability. "I didn't hurt you, you are just to sensitive." Yeah, I already considered that possibility as part of my lateral thinking, now I will really doubt if I picked the right dominant interpretation. "I am just telling the truth, it's your fault that you feel hurt." Yeah, great, it's the truth, and now I am also questioning if I am justified in feeling hurt. Both of these have to do a lot with the way I constantly see the world and naturally question myself. But it feels really awful when these traits are abused, as I definitely did not build sufficient defenses against this type of behavior (but I am currently learning).

In combination with some light alexithymia and emotional hyper-reactivity and hyper-empathy it gets even worse. For me my alexithymia means that I am constantly very physically feel my emotions as bodily sensations, up to a point they quite often become painful. But I don't usually know my emotions naturally, which means I have to actively interpret my bodily sensations. Why is my body currently feeling this way? When did this sensation start? In which other moments did I have a similar feeling in my body and how would I label these situations? Etc. That opens a lot of possibilities for easily getting me to doubt if I am currently interpreting myself correctly, because I have extremely misinterpreted myself before.

On the other hand, I also found that my traits seem to make some things much easier for me. We had some very extreme troubles a while ago, where I had to grey-rock my uBPDw for a while to protect myself emotionally. I was really surprised because it was so easy for me to just drop any sign of emotional reaction to her attempts to suck me into her emotional conundrums. She told me it felt extremely distressing for her, and I feel sorry for doing this to her, but it was just a necessary boundary I had to enforce for a while. But I was easily able to do it, even though we almost finally (instead of just temporarily) broke up over this situation.

Also, what I found that especially neurodivergents with ADHD seem to have a very similar fast relationship style to cluster-B where we just feel so intensely, that we kind of skip a lot of important relationship steps.

Are there any other neurodivergents on this forum, and what is your experience with these issues? To which problems can you relate and what does feel differently to you.

I might add that we are currently in the process of getting autism diagnoses for our children as well. That has also given me a lot of food for thought lately. I definitely lack a lot of defenses and awareness that I would need to keep out of cluster-B relationships or even to notice I am getting into one. But I really want to help my children to build these defenses and awareness so they can avoid trouble in their relationships. But I am really unsure on how to approach this.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Lenfan2]

No formal diagnosis, but I probably have those traits at least. Interesting theory. I think being neurodivergent reduces the potential pool of partners to begin with, as many neurotypical  people may be turned off by the  social awkwardness  that can come with being  neurodivergent. So, when a Cluster B type personality enters the picture and someone seems to finally "get you" and the the idealization with the love bombing starts, odds are pretty good you're going to take the bait.  I think the only antidote is more self awareness and self acceptance. If I knew then what I know now . . .

[Steppenwolf]

No formal diagnosis, but I probably have those traits at least. Interesting theory.

I don't think I would just call this a theory at this point. While this is often overlooked, there seems to be at least some research on these types of issues lately. See for example this article: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/13623613231205630

I think being neurodivergent reduces the potential pool of partners to begin with, as many neurotypical  people may be turned off by the  social awkwardness  that can come with being  neurodivergent. So, when a Cluster B type personality enters the picture and someone seems to finally "get you" and the the idealization with the love bombing starts, odds are pretty good you're going to take the bait.

Yes, I also thought about this a lot lately. But I tend to see it in both directions. Having these traits severely limits the number of potential partners that might get along with me, but at the same time it also severely limits the number of potential partners I would be interested in. I do have enough self worth that I wouldn't want a partner who won't get along with my atypical ways. I definitely need a partner I can unmask around. And I found that this seems to work both with other neurodivergent people as well as cluster-Bs, at least during times where the other person is able to value me.

So this comes with a lot of special relationship issues that are not addressed in discussions suited for neurotypicals. For example, I am currently thinking about feeling heard and making others feel heard. There is this weird issue, that when I am actually listening closely without masking, then others often won't feel heard. I might look away, fidget or play around with my stim toy etc. A lot of people associate this with me not listening and won't feel heard. But if I do this stuff, I can actually listen better. Unfortunately, if I try to mask, look the other person in the eye, try to figure out how to get the facial expression right etc, then this distracts me a lot, and I won't be able to actually listen as well. But unless I overdo the masking the other person often will feel more heard than if I actually do listen with my full attention. This creates a constant internal struggle, because my internal experience mismatches the experience of others.

So I constantly question how my experience lines up with those of others and try to find a compromise. But if I feel unheard, then I also give the other person the benefit of doubt. Maybe they actually are listening but just have similar issues of mis-alignment. This makes circular conversations so much more difficult for me.

I think the only antidote is more self awareness and self acceptance. If I knew then what I know now . . .

I am not sure if that is sufficient. I believe I was pretty self aware and self accepting before I got into the current relationship, but it didn't really protect me. I am at a point, where I noticed a lot of typical advice just doesn't work for me and even leads to painful misunderstandings even bordering on therapeutic gaslighting in a lot of cases.

For example, I have come to accept that my dating pool is much smaller than for neurotypicals. I know a lot of therapists would interpret this as me feeling unlovable or not deserving of love. But that doesn't resonate with me at all. It's just a fact I have come to accept.

Or another issue: All my relationships were initiated by the women approaching me, which isn't really the typical role for a man. I've tried to talk about this in therapy, but the typical interpretation would be that I don't approach women with romantic interest because I am afraid of rejection and I just have to be more accepting of myself and be myself in these situations. But that just felt wrong, and didn't help me at all in therapy, so I just stopped talking about this issues. Because that just doesn't relate to how these issues feel to me. A therapist dealing with these issues in that way just feels like a flight instructor putting me into a plane and then telling me that I just have to be myself to figure out which button to press and that I must be afraid of flying if I don't just press any button. But that's absolutely unhelpful, I just don't know how these buttons work, and I don't know how I can figure it out.

I actually started therapy again a while ago and talked to the therapist about these previous issues in therapy, and how I actually feel about these issues. The therapist just actually listened to me and then after I told her my view about this, she just told me that this interpretation made absolute sense to her. Being validated in my experience just felt so great and accepting, which was extremely helpful to move forward with these issues. But it also showed me, that a lot of people just completely misunderstand my experience and that their typical frameworks of understanding might in some cases do more harm than help me.

I hope this kind of makes sense. I really do hope we can find some others that might share our different perspective on these issues and help move us forward and have a more healthy relationship with our partners.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Steppenwolf,

I think you are on to something here. I am also nuerodivirgent. I am not on the autism spectrum, nor do I have ADHD, but I do have a high IQ (I am a member of Mensa) and I have been told by two therapists that I am a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP.) One of them gave me a book to read on HSPs and, apparently, we make up about 10 percent of the population. We are the polar opposites of a High Conflict Person (HCP) who also make up about 10 percent of the population. Most pwBPD fall into the category of HCPs, but not all HCPs are pwBPD.

HCPs feed off of conflict. It recharges their batteries and they are always looking to generate more conflict to feed off of. HSPs are highly empathic and absorb the feelings of those around them. Because HSPs have so much empathy, they can be easily overwhelmed by negativity and will do almost anything to avoid conflict. A match between an HCP and an HSP is highly toxic for the HSP, but it is a goldmine for the HCP. The HCP will generate drama/conflict and the HSP will absorb it. The HCP feels recharged and the HSP feels drained. The HSP will not run away though because we feel empathy for the HCP who is so obviously in distress and in need of help. This is not a codependent relationship. The HSP can, and often does, get physically ill because they are drained to the point of exhaustion.

High-IQ individuals are more likely to be HSPs. The higher the IQ, the more likely they are to be HSP. From my casual observation of the discourse on these boards, it seems like most of us "nons" would fall into the category of high-IQ people. We are, for the most part, successful in most aspects of our lives outside of our romantic relationships with our BPD partners. This is not the marker of a codependent person. I believe that pwBPD are drawn to us HSPs, unconsciously, because we provide them with the perfect match (for them at least.) We do not have all of the baggage that a codependent would bring to the table, but we do have a huge reserve of empathy that they are dying to tap into. That's my working theory at least.

HurtAndTired

[HurtAndTired]

Here's an article that refers to the matches between HSPs and HCPs:

https://highlysensitiverefuge.com/stay-away-from-high-conflict-people/

[jaded7]

Hi Steppenwolf,

I think you are on to something here. I am also nuerodivirgent. I am not on the autism spectrum, nor do I have ADHD, but I do have a high IQ (I am a member of Mensa) and I have been told by two therapists that I am a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP.) One of them gave me a book to read on HSPs and, apparently, we make up about 10 percent of the population. We are the polar opposites of a High Conflict Person (HCP) who also make up about 10 percent of the population. Most pwBPD fall into the category of HCPs, but not all HCPs are pwBPD.

HCPs feed off of conflict. It recharges their batteries and they are always looking to generate more conflict to feed off of. HSPs are highly empathic and absorb the feelings of those around them. Because HSPs have so much empathy, they can be easily overwhelmed by negativity and will do almost anything to avoid conflict. A match between an HCP and an HSP is highly toxic for the HSP, but it is a goldmine for the HCP. The HCP will generate drama/conflict and the HSP will absorb it. The HCP feels recharged and the HSP feels drained. The HSP will not run away though because we feel empathy for the HCP who is so obviously in distress and in need of help. This is not a codependent relationship. The HSP can, and often does, get physically ill because they are drained to the point of exhaustion.

High-IQ individuals are more likely to be HSPs. The higher the IQ, the more likely they are to be HSP. From my casual observation of the discourse on these boards, it seems like most of us "nons" would fall into the category of high-IQ people. We are, for the most part, successful in most aspects of our lives outside of our romantic relationships with our BPD partners. This is not the marker of a codependent person. I believe that pwBPD are drawn to us HSPs, unconsciously, because we provide them with the perfect match (for them at least.) We do not have all of the baggage that a codependent would bring to the table, but we do have a huge reserve of empathy that they are dying to tap into. That's my working theory at least.

HurtAndTired

This is fascinating. Thanks for starting this thread.

I've read a lot about codependency, and it hasn't really resonated with me much. I know that we are likely involved in these relationships because of co-dependent traits...but in no area of my life is codependence an issue. Maybe there are special things to this relationship type that bring it out?

Also attachment issues....I've read that we can have our attachment style modified by the relationship? In attachment inventories I've done I always come out as secure/anxious....mostly secure.

But, I know that my IQ is really high and I know that I am very much the highly sensitive person.

This is a good thread, thank you for starting it.

[hellosun]

I strongly relate to everything you have written, Steppenwolf, but especially the bit about lateral thinking and making others feel heard!

However, I do differ in one area: though for most of my 10-year-marriage I have thought myself to be self-confident and generally lacking co-dependent traits (I have good boundaries, after all, and learned the communication skills taught here early on), alexithymia may have been the reason I was unable to identify with how my inner child was actually feeling deep down.

As I have worked with a therapist using unconventional therapeutic modalities to increase my emotional awareness over the past year-and-a-half, I have identified a core wound and limiting belief I was unconsciously acting out of, leading me to behave in a somewhat—though certainly not totally—codependent manner, at least with regards to a few of my decisions.

I was able to rationalize these fear-driven decisions easily. Cognitively understanding why my uBPDh was acting out inspired empathy for and forgiveness towards him, even after his most egregious errors. I still haven’t quite figured out where the line between enabling and respecting his autonomy lies, but I seem to have erred on the side of enabling here and there.

Also, my current therapist is the first therapist I’ve had who has been helpful. Most were unhelpful, or even outright harmful, for similar reasons as you expressed experiencing. It really helps to find one who “gets you.”

Thank you so much for your post! I found it validating to read. And I hope you find some new and helpful perspectives in the responses. I have, and will check back to read more.

[Lenfan2]

 STEP: "I am not sure if that is sufficient."   I am sure that it is not, but I am afraid it might be all we've got in practical terms. I have been following this site for close to 9 years now, and it seems that there are just more questions than answers. I am glad you're asking them though.


HurtandTired: I too am an HSP and a Mensan.  Your post hit home.  Perhaps we're all trying too hard to "figure this out"?  On the other hand, it is comforting to have some way of categorizing things to help explain and address our struggles, and to have a sense of community.

   

[HurtAndTired]

Lenfan2,

Thank you for the validation! The point that I really wanted to make is that I feel as if many of us are being told that we are codependents by various sources (therapists, books, etc.) when that does not reflect the reality of most of the folks on here whose stories I have been following. Codependents tend to be codependent in many, if not most, areas of their life whereas most of us "nons" only have issues in our romantic relationships. Thinking that we are codependent when most of us are not, is harmful.

The book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Margalis Fjelstad calls us "caretakers" and is very intentional in drawing a line between "caretakers" and "codependents." She assures us that we are not codependent and that caretakers are successful in all other areas of their lives. We excel in jobs that are suited to empaths such as teaching, nursing, and other careers where we can help others. While she never uses the term HSP, I have come to see that HSPs are what she is describing in her book. I don't know why it took me so long to put two and two together and realize this, but it has been a eureka moment for me now that I have.

If we can stop being falsely labeled as codependent and start addressing the real issue, which stems from being a caretaker/HSP, we could cut out a lot of wasted time and anguish when we are working through how to improve our side of the equation in a relationship.

HurtAndTired.

[Steppenwolf]

I strongly relate to everything you have written, Steppenwolf, but especially the bit about lateral thinking and making others feel heard!

However, I do differ in one area: though for most of my 10-year-marriage I have thought myself to be self-confident and generally lacking co-dependent traits (I have good boundaries, after all, and learned the communication skills taught here early on), alexithymia may have been the reason I was unable to identify with how my inner child was actually feeling deep down.

As I have worked with a therapist using unconventional therapeutic modalities to increase my emotional awareness over the past year-and-a-half, I have identified a core wound and limiting belief I was unconsciously acting out of, leading me to behave in a somewhat—though certainly not totally—codependent manner, at least with regards to a few of my decisions.

I was able to rationalize these fear-driven decisions easily. Cognitively understanding why my uBPDh was acting out inspired empathy for and forgiveness towards him, even after his most egregious errors. I still haven’t quite figured out where the line between enabling and respecting his autonomy lies, but I seem to have erred on the side of enabling here and there.

Also, my current therapist is the first therapist I’ve had who has been helpful. Most were unhelpful, or even outright harmful, for similar reasons as you expressed experiencing. It really helps to find one who “gets you.”

Thank you so much for your post! I found it validating to read. And I hope you find some new and helpful perspectives in the responses. I have, and will check back to read more.

Thank you for your response. I am also thinking a lot about the core wound. Because the current relationship is currently going more and more in a final break up direction since I need to take better care of myself and the kids, I have been thinking a lot about my possible core wounds and how they might keep me from just letting go.

I think we should be careful about core wounds or attachment behavior in the area of neurodivergence. One issue that seems very similar to a core wound for me is the "feeling unlovable" core wound. I think a lot of my behavior would seem like I have this core wound, but it absolutely does not resonate at all with me emotionally and I think looking deeper there is something else at play. People who feel unlovable believe other people won't connect to them, because that is how they were treated in their childhood. I have some experiences in that regard from my childhood, but also a lot of other experiences showing me I was in fact loved and cared for. And these experiences give me a lot of strength and security that I am lovable.

However, at the same time I feel like a lot of people have a hard time connecting to me, like our experiences are so different it is really hard to bridge them. Moreover, this feeling is mutual, I feel like they cannot connect to me and I don't really feel connected. Then, I just met another autistic person (got my diagnosis a short while ago because my therapist indicated it might be helpful), and there was an instant feeling of connection between us. I have wondered if this is how neurotypicals usually feel when meeting other people, because it was so much easier. I had this instant connection with others before, but I found that all these people I could connect to now are either diagnosed or self-diagnosed with ADHD or ASD.

So if I say I don't feel a connection to most people, this might look like a core wound to many therapists. However, I think addressing it as a core wound wouldn't be beneficial for me, as right now I tried to reflect on the beliefs, and I don't feel like it is just a belief but rather a real experience due to neurological differences and thus much different experiences. So I need different strategies, like going to ASD social groups etc to feel connected there.

But yeah, at the same time this experience does keep me trapped and creates a similar structure to codependency. Feeling connected seems much rarer to me than to others, and thus I do in fact tend to attach much more strongly to any person I feel a connection to. But this also does keep me in the relationship right now and before when I felt this sense of attachment, even when I started to feel the person wasn't good for me.

[Steppenwolf]

Thank you for the validation! The point that I really wanted to make is that I feel as if many of us are being told that we are codependents by various sources (therapists, books, etc.) when that does not reflect the reality of most of the folks on here whose stories I have been following. Codependents tend to be codependent in many, if not most, areas of their life whereas most of us "nons" only have issues in our romantic relationships. Thinking that we are codependent when most of us are not, is harmful.

The book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Margalis Fjelstad calls us "caretakers" and is very intentional in drawing a line between "caretakers" and "codependents." She assures us that we are not codependent and that caretakers are successful in all other areas of their lives. We excel in jobs that are suited to empaths such as teaching, nursing, and other careers where we can help others. While she never uses the term HSP, I have come to see that HSPs are what she is describing in her book. I don't know why it took me so long to put two and two together and realize this, but it has been a eureka moment for me now that I have.

If we can stop being falsely labeled as codependent and start addressing the real issue, which stems from being a caretaker/HSP, we could cut out a lot of wasted time and anguish when we are working through how to improve our side of the equation in a relationship.

That is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. I like the distinction between caretaker and codependent and it makes a lot of sense.

The concept of HSP is highly debated in psychology, but I still think the research by Elaine Aron is very important for a lot of people as it addresses a lot of issues many people face. The reason it is debated is that Elaine Aron never truly differentiated between HSP, ADHD, ASD, or CPTSD and a lot of the traits she describes are shared by all these groups. In fact I first got her book and could identify with a lot of the things she writes about, but also found a lot of my previous ADHD diagnosis in what she wrote. Then my therapist figured it is in fact ASD for me. He specializes in HSP and gifted clients, though, so he does in fact differentiate between HSP and ASD. But I now know a lot of people who got their ASD diagnosis after first being exposed to Elaine Arons ideas.

I now learned that neurodivergence can come with issues related to hyperempathy. With ASD people tend to describe either very low empathy or hyperempathy but rarely anything in between. I definitely show hyperempathy, which means I often take on the feelings of others as my own and when I was younger I even had trouble distinguishing my own feelings from those of others. I think this might be part of the caretaker mentality I adopted, because my feelings as well as those of others are often just physical sensations up to a point of painful sensations in my body. At the same time I have a hard time reflecting on what these physical sensations mean or putting them in words (Alexithymia). So taking care of others often has been a way to reduce the painful experiences in my body I picked up from them.

I learned a lot to better separate my own experience from feelings picked up from others, but in many cases I still have these painful experiences from others even though I know they are not my own. But it is still very hard for me to tune them down without becoming a caretaker.

[Notwendy]

Or another issue: All my relationships were initiated by the women approaching me, which isn't really the typical role for a man.

I think this is a key point. For someone who tends to be socially introverted, the initial "persona" of someone with BPD could be very appealing. They are, in a way, carrying the social load of the beginning of the relationship. There may be some red flags but a person on the spectrum might second guess themselves as you mentioned.

I don't think a person with BPD intentionally seeks out neurodivergent people. I think it's that these are the relationships that "stick". It's possible for people to be attracted to each other and after getting to know each other, decide the relationship won't continue. It's possible that someone on the spectrum doesn't come to this conclusion as easily as someone who isn't.

You mentioned "masking". PwBPD mask as well. They can have a superficial public persona and be different when in private. I think everyone masks to some extent in public. We present a more formal side at work than we do at home. I think the difference is how much we mask. Someone with BPD could act like a completely different person in public while people who don't have a disorder don't.

I think one solution is to go slow in new relationships- let time help you to see behavior patterns.

[Steppenwolf]

I think this is a key point. For someone who tends to be socially introverted, the initial "persona" of someone with BPD could be very appealing. They are, in a way, carrying the social load of the beginning of the relationship. There may be some red flags but a person on the spectrum might second guess themselves as you mentioned.

I don't think a person with BPD intentionally seeks out neurodivergent people. I think it's that these are the relationships that "stick". It's possible for people to be attracted to each other and after getting to know each other, decide the relationship won't continue. It's possible that someone on the spectrum doesn't come to this conclusion as easily as someone who isn't.

You mentioned "masking". PwBPD mask as well. They can have a superficial public persona and be different when in private. I think everyone masks to some extent in public. We present a more formal side at work than we do at home. I think the difference is how much we mask. Someone with BPD could act like a completely different person in public while people who don't have a disorder don't.

I think one solution is to go slow in new relationships- let time help you to see behavior patterns.

Yes, I mostly agree. From what I gather now, it seems to be a combination of factors, that at least in my case lead to these repeated outcomes with these type of relationships.

I think it is important to also think about how to go much slower about relationships in general. I now met other autistic people and yes, we do tend to jump to private topics much more quickly. I just recently got to meet another pwAuDHD and within a few days we were talking via text about previous abuse experiences. It felt natural for both of us, but I think a lot of NTs would take much more time to jump to these types of topics. And of course ADHD impulsiveness in the mix, and yeah, I think this is what got me carelessly into relationships I should have taken more time to develop.

[Notwendy]

I think it is important to also think about how to go much slower about relationships in general. I now met other autistic people and yes, we do tend to jump to private topics much more quickly. I just recently got to meet another pwAuDHD and within a few days we were talking via text about previous abuse experiences. It felt natural for both of us, but I think a lot of NTs would take much more time to jump to these types of topics. And of course ADHD impulsiveness in the mix, and yeah, I think this is what got me carelessly into relationships I should have taken more time to develop.

This is a good point as romamces with people with PD's also tend to be fast- and along with the love bombing, and someone else who tends to go fast, things can progress quickly.

I don't think there's a general rule for how slow. It's one of those things that seem to involve that social sense that perhaps is more difficult for people on the spectrum. It's also about boundaries. When someone is revealing too much personal information during a first few meetings, it feels uncomfortable. Another variation of this is when someone has a significant part of their past- when to reveal this? It's important to be honest about issues that can affect a relationship and on the other hand, a person may not want to discuss a personal issue with someone they don't know well. Again, there's a sort of sense for when a relationsip seems to be "ready for the next level" that might be more elusive to someone on the spectrum.

Then there are people who go so slow, it's hard to know if they are interested or not.

When it comes to masking- I think there is a difference with the spectrum and with a PD. This is only based on my own experiences but I have found that people on the spectrum tend to also be honest. The masking is a behavioral attempt to act NT when they have to but they still are generally honest. The masking from someone with a PD is based on their fears and they aren't always honest. Your experience with another person on the spectrum was more of a match of being who you are, not a persona you have when in public.

The one piece of advice I have heard about going slow is about not getting too physical quickly because being emotionally and physically too fast can cloud judgment about compatibility. But how slow, or fast, doesn't have a one rule for all unless someone is following religious rules.

The other is to know what you want in a relationship. We can make choices about the important things. If we are too picky, that makes it more difficult but knowing what you want (realistically) makes it easier to find a person who matches that. If someone is on the spectrum, maybe this is where they'd benefit from one of the dating coach services. I don't have experience with them myself but I have seen them available. Or rely on a trusted family member or friend. I know of cultures that have arranged marriage- it's more like arranged dating- the people still have the choice to move forward or not but family tries to make good dating matches for them by matching qualities they are looking for. One red flag is when friends and family don't like who you are dating, and not due to superficial reasons- but they may sense something about that person that seems "off" to them.

[Skip]

QUIZ

Where do you fall within these characteristics?

1       __ Yes         __Somewhat            ___Not at all.
Enmeshment in relationships with personality disordered, chemically dependent, other co‐dependent, or impulse‐disordered individuals.

2       __ Yes         __Somewhat            ___Not at all.
Continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control oneself (and others) in the face of serious adverse consequences.

3       __ Yes         __Somewhat            ___Not at all.
Assumption of responsibility for meeting others' needs to the exclusion of acknowledging one's own.

4       __ Yes         __Somewhat            ___Not at all.
Anxiety and boundary distortions around intimacy and separation.

[Steppenwolf]

QUIZ

Where do you fall within these characteristics?

1       __ Yes         __Somewhat            ___Not at all.
Enmeshment in relationships with personality disordered, chemically dependent, other co‐dependent, or impulse‐disordered individuals.

2       __ Yes         __Somewhat            ___Not at all.
Continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control oneself (and others) in the face of serious adverse consequences.

3       __ Yes         __Somewhat            ___Not at all.
Assumption of responsibility for meeting others' needs to the exclusion of acknowledging one's own.

4       __ Yes         __Somewhat            ___Not at all.
Anxiety and boundary distortions around intimacy and separation.

Thank you for these questions. I tried to answer them for me, but I am not sure how to apply them to my situation or if I understand the characteristics (language barrier). Maybe you can help me somewhat to figure this out for me.

1       __ Yes         _X_Somewhat            ___Not at all.
Enmeshment in relationships with personality disordered, chemically dependent, other co‐dependent, or impulse‐disordered individuals.

I think enmeshment is a very strong topic in all kinds of relationships. But not necessary with these types of individuals. I felt very enmeshed in my first relationship as well, but she was neither PD, nor any other type of dependency. We were just both pwASD, with different positions on the spectrum that matched really well.

2       __ Yes         __Somewhat            _X_Not at all.
Continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control oneself (and others) in the face of serious adverse consequences.

I am absolutely unsure what is meant by this. I tried googling the phrase and even asked chatGPT about this. From what I understand, this means that my self-esteem is dependent on if I am able to control myself or others. My ability to function is heavily dependent on my ability to control myself, but I wouldn't say my self-esteem is. I would love to be able to be less controlling about myself, and I am happy I found safe spaces where I am accepted the way I am without much need for control. I loved all moments in my life, where I just let go of the control, so rather I get self-esteem from getting out of this rigid self-control every once in a while.

I definitely try not to be controlling of others.

3       __ Yes         __Somewhat            _X_Not at all.
Assumption of responsibility for meeting others' needs to the exclusion of acknowledging one's own.

I don't try to assume responsibility for other people's needs too much. But there are a lot of social interactions, where I still put the needs of others first. But again, this is more so I am able to function together with others, not because I think their needs are more important than mine. And there are a lot of traps I fall into frequently, where I cannot meet my needs.

4       __ Yes         __Somewhat            _X_Not at all.
Anxiety and boundary distortions around intimacy and separation.

Neglecting my boundaries is fairly common for me. When I am absolutely overstimulated, I still might have to go to the supermarket, although it takes up too much energy and leaves me drained much more than it should. If I don't I simply might not have what I need. Going to school was a constant violation of my boundaries, because of the way school is structured.

So I am not sure, if I have more boundary distortions around intimacy and separation. I actually would say, I have less boundary distortions concerning these topics, because I can more freely be myself the more intimacy I have with someone.

[thankful person]

Hi Steppenwolf,

This is very interesting. I have always struggled to fit in to groups of people through school until the present. I have always been drawn to those who are different and those who struggle, whether that is neurodivergence or mental illness, I tend to relate to them. For this reason I have worked with children for the past 30 years, and many with ASD and ADHD, and I relate to these lots and do believe I would get both of these diagnoses were I to pursue it.

My relationships have always been with “messed up” individuals and I have always sought these out for some reason. I have always loved them more than I love myself and always been very controlled, but nothing near as bad as what I’ve been through with bpdw. But I am looking after myself better now and standing up for myself, because I want to be a good role model for my kids and it sounds cheesy, but I know I deserve it too and I thank my dear friends at bpd family for that. Actually the best group I’ve ever had the honour of being in.