(Quiet) Shoutout to the Neurodivergents on this forum

[Steppenwolf]

Hi all,

It's been a while since I last visited this place. A lot has happened during the last months.

While looking around on this forum, a lot of times we partners of pwBPD are seen as co-dependent. I can understand this sentiment, especially if we have been with multiple cluster-Bs in our life. However, whenever I read about co-dependency, I often fail to identify with a lot a things I read about it.

I was late-diagnosed with ADHD a few years ago, and currently my therapist is suggesting I might also be showing high autistic traits, and I should even attempt to seek an autism diagnosis. I read a lot through other groups of neurodivergent people, and there is one common theme, that neurodivergents just keep ending up in cluster-B relationships repeatedly for some reason, and a lot of us are really frustrated about this. Also, there is a very common theme around abusive behavior that happens during childhood, mobbing etc.

However, from what I found I am not sure if the dynamics between neurodivergents and cluster-Bs in general and neurotypical and cluster-Bs are always comparable. At least I am seeing a lot of dynamics that neurotypical and cluster-B relationships might lack. For example, I am constantly questioning if I am interpreting some situation correctly. I am so often confused by social interactions, that I am just very unsure what to make of it. In addition, I have an extreme high level of lateral thinking, which also seems to be common for neurodivergents. Lateral thinking means, that I typically don't have one single interpretation of any kind of situation but multiple parallel interpretations, that I all view simultaneously. One might be dominant, but that doesn't really mean I disregard the others.

While lateral thinking can be really helpful in some situations, I noticed it also makes me highly vulnerable to some practices of evading accountability. "I didn't hurt you, you are just to sensitive." Yeah, I already considered that possibility as part of my lateral thinking, now I will really doubt if I picked the right dominant interpretation. "I am just telling the truth, it's your fault that you feel hurt." Yeah, great, it's the truth, and now I am also questioning if I am justified in feeling hurt. Both of these have to do a lot with the way I constantly see the world and naturally question myself. But it feels really awful when these traits are abused, as I definitely did not build sufficient defenses against this type of behavior (but I am currently learning).

In combination with some light alexithymia and emotional hyper-reactivity and hyper-empathy it gets even worse. For me my alexithymia means that I am constantly very physically feel my emotions as bodily sensations, up to a point they quite often become painful. But I don't usually know my emotions naturally, which means I have to actively interpret my bodily sensations. Why is my body currently feeling this way? When did this sensation start? In which other moments did I have a similar feeling in my body and how would I label these situations? Etc. That opens a lot of possibilities for easily getting me to doubt if I am currently interpreting myself correctly, because I have extremely misinterpreted myself before.

On the other hand, I also found that my traits seem to make some things much easier for me. We had some very extreme troubles a while ago, where I had to grey-rock my uBPDw for a while to protect myself emotionally. I was really surprised because it was so easy for me to just drop any sign of emotional reaction to her attempts to suck me into her emotional conundrums. She told me it felt extremely distressing for her, and I feel sorry for doing this to her, but it was just a necessary boundary I had to enforce for a while. But I was easily able to do it, even though we almost finally (instead of just temporarily) broke up over this situation.

Also, what I found that especially neurodivergents with ADHD seem to have a very similar fast relationship style to cluster-B where we just feel so intensely, that we kind of skip a lot of important relationship steps.

Are there any other neurodivergents on this forum, and what is your experience with these issues? To which problems can you relate and what does feel differently to you.

I might add that we are currently in the process of getting autism diagnoses for our children as well. That has also given me a lot of food for thought lately. I definitely lack a lot of defenses and awareness that I would need to keep out of cluster-B relationships or even to notice I am getting into one. But I really want to help my children to build these defenses and awareness so they can avoid trouble in their relationships. But I am really unsure on how to approach this.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Lenfan2]

No formal diagnosis, but I probably have those traits at least. Interesting theory. I think being neurodivergent reduces the potential pool of partners to begin with, as many neurotypical  people may be turned off by the  social awkwardness  that can come with being  neurodivergent. So, when a Cluster B type personality enters the picture and someone seems to finally "get you" and the the idealization with the love bombing starts, odds are pretty good you're going to take the bait.  I think the only antidote is more self awareness and self acceptance. If I knew then what I know now . . .

[Steppenwolf]

No formal diagnosis, but I probably have those traits at least. Interesting theory.

I don't think I would just call this a theory at this point. While this is often overlooked, there seems to be at least some research on these types of issues lately. See for example this article: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/13623613231205630

I think being neurodivergent reduces the potential pool of partners to begin with, as many neurotypical  people may be turned off by the  social awkwardness  that can come with being  neurodivergent. So, when a Cluster B type personality enters the picture and someone seems to finally "get you" and the the idealization with the love bombing starts, odds are pretty good you're going to take the bait.

Yes, I also thought about this a lot lately. But I tend to see it in both directions. Having these traits severely limits the number of potential partners that might get along with me, but at the same time it also severely limits the number of potential partners I would be interested in. I do have enough self worth that I wouldn't want a partner who won't get along with my atypical ways. I definitely need a partner I can unmask around. And I found that this seems to work both with other neurodivergent people as well as cluster-Bs, at least during times where the other person is able to value me.

So this comes with a lot of special relationship issues that are not addressed in discussions suited for neurotypicals. For example, I am currently thinking about feeling heard and making others feel heard. There is this weird issue, that when I am actually listening closely without masking, then others often won't feel heard. I might look away, fidget or play around with my stim toy etc. A lot of people associate this with me not listening and won't feel heard. But if I do this stuff, I can actually listen better. Unfortunately, if I try to mask, look the other person in the eye, try to figure out how to get the facial expression right etc, then this distracts me a lot, and I won't be able to actually listen as well. But unless I overdo the masking the other person often will feel more heard than if I actually do listen with my full attention. This creates a constant internal struggle, because my internal experience mismatches the experience of others.

So I constantly question how my experience lines up with those of others and try to find a compromise. But if I feel unheard, then I also give the other person the benefit of doubt. Maybe they actually are listening but just have similar issues of mis-alignment. This makes circular conversations so much more difficult for me.

I think the only antidote is more self awareness and self acceptance. If I knew then what I know now . . .

I am not sure if that is sufficient. I believe I was pretty self aware and self accepting before I got into the current relationship, but it didn't really protect me. I am at a point, where I noticed a lot of typical advice just doesn't work for me and even leads to painful misunderstandings even bordering on therapeutic gaslighting in a lot of cases.

For example, I have come to accept that my dating pool is much smaller than for neurotypicals. I know a lot of therapists would interpret this as me feeling unlovable or not deserving of love. But that doesn't resonate with me at all. It's just a fact I have come to accept.

Or another issue: All my relationships were initiated by the women approaching me, which isn't really the typical role for a man. I've tried to talk about this in therapy, but the typical interpretation would be that I don't approach women with romantic interest because I am afraid of rejection and I just have to be more accepting of myself and be myself in these situations. But that just felt wrong, and didn't help me at all in therapy, so I just stopped talking about this issues. Because that just doesn't relate to how these issues feel to me. A therapist dealing with these issues in that way just feels like a flight instructor putting me into a plane and then telling me that I just have to be myself to figure out which button to press and that I must be afraid of flying if I don't just press any button. But that's absolutely unhelpful, I just don't know how these buttons work, and I don't know how I can figure it out.

I actually started therapy again a while ago and talked to the therapist about these previous issues in therapy, and how I actually feel about these issues. The therapist just actually listened to me and then after I told her my view about this, she just told me that this interpretation made absolute sense to her. Being validated in my experience just felt so great and accepting, which was extremely helpful to move forward with these issues. But it also showed me, that a lot of people just completely misunderstand my experience and that their typical frameworks of understanding might in some cases do more harm than help me.

I hope this kind of makes sense. I really do hope we can find some others that might share our different perspective on these issues and help move us forward and have a more healthy relationship with our partners.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Steppenwolf,

I think you are on to something here. I am also nuerodivirgent. I am not on the autism spectrum, nor do I have ADHD, but I do have a high IQ (I am a member of Mensa) and I have been told by two therapists that I am a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP.) One of them gave me a book to read on HSPs and, apparently, we make up about 10 percent of the population. We are the polar opposites of a High Conflict Person (HCP) who also make up about 10 percent of the population. Most pwBPD fall into the category of HCPs, but not all HCPs are pwBPD.

HCPs feed off of conflict. It recharges their batteries and they are always looking to generate more conflict to feed off of. HSPs are highly empathic and absorb the feelings of those around them. Because HSPs have so much empathy, they can be easily overwhelmed by negativity and will do almost anything to avoid conflict. A match between an HCP and an HSP is highly toxic for the HSP, but it is a goldmine for the HCP. The HCP will generate drama/conflict and the HSP will absorb it. The HCP feels recharged and the HSP feels drained. The HSP will not run away though because we feel empathy for the HCP who is so obviously in distress and in need of help. This is not a codependent relationship. The HSP can, and often does, get physically ill because they are drained to the point of exhaustion.

High-IQ individuals are more likely to be HSPs. The higher the IQ, the more likely they are to be HSP. From my casual observation of the discourse on these boards, it seems like most of us "nons" would fall into the category of high-IQ people. We are, for the most part, successful in most aspects of our lives outside of our romantic relationships with our BPD partners. This is not the marker of a codependent person. I believe that pwBPD are drawn to us HSPs, unconsciously, because we provide them with the perfect match (for them at least.) We do not have all of the baggage that a codependent would bring to the table, but we do have a huge reserve of empathy that they are dying to tap into. That's my working theory at least.

HurtAndTired

[HurtAndTired]

Here's an article that refers to the matches between HSPs and HCPs:

https://highlysensitiverefuge.com/stay-away-from-high-conflict-people/

[jaded7]

Hi Steppenwolf,

I think you are on to something here. I am also nuerodivirgent. I am not on the autism spectrum, nor do I have ADHD, but I do have a high IQ (I am a member of Mensa) and I have been told by two therapists that I am a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP.) One of them gave me a book to read on HSPs and, apparently, we make up about 10 percent of the population. We are the polar opposites of a High Conflict Person (HCP) who also make up about 10 percent of the population. Most pwBPD fall into the category of HCPs, but not all HCPs are pwBPD.

HCPs feed off of conflict. It recharges their batteries and they are always looking to generate more conflict to feed off of. HSPs are highly empathic and absorb the feelings of those around them. Because HSPs have so much empathy, they can be easily overwhelmed by negativity and will do almost anything to avoid conflict. A match between an HCP and an HSP is highly toxic for the HSP, but it is a goldmine for the HCP. The HCP will generate drama/conflict and the HSP will absorb it. The HCP feels recharged and the HSP feels drained. The HSP will not run away though because we feel empathy for the HCP who is so obviously in distress and in need of help. This is not a codependent relationship. The HSP can, and often does, get physically ill because they are drained to the point of exhaustion.

High-IQ individuals are more likely to be HSPs. The higher the IQ, the more likely they are to be HSP. From my casual observation of the discourse on these boards, it seems like most of us "nons" would fall into the category of high-IQ people. We are, for the most part, successful in most aspects of our lives outside of our romantic relationships with our BPD partners. This is not the marker of a codependent person. I believe that pwBPD are drawn to us HSPs, unconsciously, because we provide them with the perfect match (for them at least.) We do not have all of the baggage that a codependent would bring to the table, but we do have a huge reserve of empathy that they are dying to tap into. That's my working theory at least.

HurtAndTired

This is fascinating. Thanks for starting this thread.

I've read a lot about codependency, and it hasn't really resonated with me much. I know that we are likely involved in these relationships because of co-dependent traits...but in no area of my life is codependence an issue. Maybe there are special things to this relationship type that bring it out?

Also attachment issues....I've read that we can have our attachment style modified by the relationship? In attachment inventories I've done I always come out as secure/anxious....mostly secure.

But, I know that my IQ is really high and I know that I am very much the highly sensitive person.

This is a good thread, thank you for starting it.

[hellosun]

I strongly relate to everything you have written, Steppenwolf, but especially the bit about lateral thinking and making others feel heard!

However, I do differ in one area: though for most of my 10-year-marriage I have thought myself to be self-confident and generally lacking co-dependent traits (I have good boundaries, after all, and learned the communication skills taught here early on), alexithymia may have been the reason I was unable to identify with how my inner child was actually feeling deep down.

As I have worked with a therapist using unconventional therapeutic modalities to increase my emotional awareness over the past year-and-a-half, I have identified a core wound and limiting belief I was unconsciously acting out of, leading me to behave in a somewhat—though certainly not totally—codependent manner, at least with regards to a few of my decisions.

I was able to rationalize these fear-driven decisions easily. Cognitively understanding why my uBPDh was acting out inspired empathy for and forgiveness towards him, even after his most egregious errors. I still haven’t quite figured out where the line between enabling and respecting his autonomy lies, but I seem to have erred on the side of enabling here and there.

Also, my current therapist is the first therapist I’ve had who has been helpful. Most were unhelpful, or even outright harmful, for similar reasons as you expressed experiencing. It really helps to find one who “gets you.”

Thank you so much for your post! I found it validating to read. And I hope you find some new and helpful perspectives in the responses. I have, and will check back to read more.

[Lenfan2]

 STEP: "I am not sure if that is sufficient."   I am sure that it is not, but I am afraid it might be all we've got in practical terms. I have been following this site for close to 9 years now, and it seems that there are just more questions than answers. I am glad you're asking them though.


HurtandTired: I too am an HSP and a Mensan.  Your post hit home.  Perhaps we're all trying too hard to "figure this out"?  On the other hand, it is comforting to have some way of categorizing things to help explain and address our struggles, and to have a sense of community.

   

[HurtAndTired]

Lenfan2,

Thank you for the validation! The point that I really wanted to make is that I feel as if many of us are being told that we are codependents by various sources (therapists, books, etc.) when that does not reflect the reality of most of the folks on here whose stories I have been following. Codependents tend to be codependent in many, if not most, areas of their life whereas most of us "nons" only have issues in our romantic relationships. Thinking that we are codependent when most of us are not, is harmful.

The book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Margalis Fjelstad calls us "caretakers" and is very intentional in drawing a line between "caretakers" and "codependents." She assures us that we are not codependent and that caretakers are successful in all other areas of their lives. We excel in jobs that are suited to empaths such as teaching, nursing, and other careers where we can help others. While she never uses the term HSP, I have come to see that HSPs are what she is describing in her book. I don't know why it took me so long to put two and two together and realize this, but it has been a eureka moment for me now that I have.

If we can stop being falsely labeled as codependent and start addressing the real issue, which stems from being a caretaker/HSP, we could cut out a lot of wasted time and anguish when we are working through how to improve our side of the equation in a relationship.

HurtAndTired.