I just signed the lease on an apartment

[Gerda]

I did it. I'm committed now. This past week I finished the online application for an apartment, downloaded and sent in pay stubs and bank statements, answered all these questions about my income and rental history (or lack thereof in my case, which had to be explained), paid a non-refundable application fee, did the pet screening for my cats (which involved getting vaccination records from my vet, taking pictures of them to send in, answering questions like when did I adopt them, when did I get them spayed and neutered, etc). And I was approved and then I had to sign all these forms on the lease contract and pay a security deposit, but I think I'm finally done for now. I will have to get renter's insurance and set up my accounts with the electric company and internet service provider, but my move in date isn't until July 22, so I think I just have to do that stuff some time before then.

I'm exhausted now. I don't remember renting an apartment being this complicated before, but I admit it's been a long time since I last did. And I'm super depressed. I texted my best friend to let her know what I had done, and she texted back something like, "Yeah! Way to go! I'm happy for you," and I just texted her back telling her I sure don't feel happy, and then I cried for a bit.

I guess my next step is to call the lawyer I've chosen to let her know I've chosen her to handle my case. I did the apartment stuff first because I wanted to make sure I got one right away, because I live in a college town, and I was afraid that if I waited too long, college students would come rushing in this summer and grab up all the available apartments. I also wanted to know exactly what my move-in date would be for planning purposes. I wanted to be able to tell the lawyer that so we could then use that information to figure out when to serve my husband with papers, ask for temp orders, all that stuff.

There's just so many moving parts to all this, and in the meantime a ton of grief has hit me again. I really would like to just curl up under a rock somewhere. Doing all this apartment finding stuff has taken up all my mental/emotional energy this week.

But yes, next week, call the lawyer to get officially set up as a client. Then I'll have to pay them thousands of dollars for a retainer. They'll set me up with some kind of online client portal thing, and whatever else they do now.

Meanwhile my husband is in the dark about all this. He says we ought to do something fun this weekend as a family. I suggested we take 4D to this children's museum I've been wanting to check out for a while. Little does he know that meanwhile I'm secretly plotting this evil scheme to destroy our family (or at least I'm sure that's how he'll see it once he finds out).

I had therapy this morning, and told my therapist that I feel like I'm throwing my life away. She said something like, "isn't it sad that because of someone else's mental illness, you're having to upend your life like this?" I guess it just is and there's no way around it. I reminded myself of all the crazy and abusive stuff my husband has said and done over the last few years and how he's completely unwilling to improve or change any of it. So I still know on an intellectual level that this is the right thing to do. But I don't feel good about it at all.

[kells76]

So I still know on an intellectual level that this is the right thing to do. But I don't feel good about it at all.

That makes sense. Doing the loving thing -- the "good" thing -- often doesn't feel good. I can say that calling CPS has not felt completely good, relaxing, clear, or relieving for me. I guess it's weirdly nice to know that there's no necessary correlation between how I feel about something, and whether it's the right thing to do or not.

When you say you don't feel good about it, what's going on there, do you think? Guilt? Regret? Fear? Discomfort? all of the above, or something else?

[Gerda]

I guess I'm still grieving the family and the life I was supposed to have had. The one I thought I was going to have when I first married this guy and when we bought our house and when I decided to have a kid with him.

I'm going to lose the house I've lived in for 12 years and have to move into an apartment. I'm an outdoorsy person and really prefer living in a house. We have a nice big yard with lots of trees. I'm leaving behind several fruit trees I planted, some of which are just now starting to mature and get fruit. I'm leaving behind the raised bed vegetable garden we built together, and the herb garden by the back door. I'm leaving behind the grave of one of my cats and a tree I planted when my dad died that I sprinkled some of his cremation ashes onto.

I'm probably not going to be able to go to my church anymore, because I started going because his parents went there, and his mom and sister and brother-in-law still go there and are active there, and so that will be awkward at best. At worst, his family might totally turn against me for being so evil to divorce him. I'm really not sure how they'll react.

I don't like leaving my in-laws either. I've spent most holidays with them since I got married. Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter... because I don't get along with my FOO. I've always gotten along well with them, especially with my mother-in-law. Now I'm not going to have any family at all.

I guess that's what I mean when I say I feel like I'm throwing my whole life away. I'm not just grieving the relationship with my husband, which has been lousy for several years now, but there's a lot that goes along with him too.

[zachira]

You are making some big changes in your life yet you will find that with the grief and time, you will likely start to feel better, and not regret moving on from a very unhappy marriage. Some big surprises are in store, as people will be showing their true colors: some supporting your husband without knowing your side of the story, and others standing beside you without judgment.

[CravingPeace]

Gerda,
I just want to say I relate so much to what you are saying. After my couples therapist in confidence told me I am in a toxic relationship, where I am being abused and she didnt know how I am still sane, and uBPD decided to refuse to go back as therapist was working with me against her (because therapist told my wife she was projecting, calling her up on denying things she had said, and stopping her when she attacked me over things I supposedly had said a minute before that I hadnt), I decided enough was enough.

I told my wife its time for divorce. We have young kids. Youngest just 9 months. I wish to god or the universe I could keep it all together but i cant, I just cant. I am riddled with guilt and fear but I know i must do this after 17 years for my sanity and one day my kids will thank me. I hope....

Right now being young kids they are quite emessed in mom. 5 and 7 year old regularly sleep with her. When she is here they quite often are off with me tell me they hate me, and everything is hard. When she is not here they behave  go to bed when I ask, generally respond to what I am asking and are lovely to me. Something about her brings the worst out in them against me.

But the main thing I am trying to say is I feel so full of grief for the life I had hoped for. I spend alot of time second guessing myself. Is it really this bad? I mean she hasn't been violent. But I know that I am constantly sabotaged. She has just admitted she gets alot of things wrong, and disassociates, and gets emotionally disregulated. Why has it taken over 15 years to tell me this? I tried to explain if you are disassociated do you not see how that leads to abuse? The amount of conversations where she has said cruel vindictive and upsetting things then denied it, or reversed it and attacked me again when i bring it up. Does she really not know she says these things?

Now she is mixed between telling me how awful I am, while also telling me how much I have let her down and discarded her, why am I not trying harder?

Its awful the guilt is horrendous. But I know hand on heart now I will not be happy if I stay. I need to move on. Even if it means being alone for ever. You have the reverse to me as I read your previous posts in some ways. You are kinda forced to have sex. I have only had sex to make babies, and she oretended before she wanted me but when it happens she looks away from me , acts like she hates it and tells me to hurry up. I feel traumatised from that and it puts me off ever wanting sex again. Both are sexual abuse I think. Although now she tells me it is my fault. She was waiting for me to fix me so she would want to have sex with me. She wanted me to try harder. Unfortunately trying harder is what got me into this mess .... There isnt enough trying I could do to make her feel happy. I realise from childhood trauma I was trying to do the right thing, listen to what my oartner was tellong me and try to change to meet her expectations. And besides I now know being happy is her responsability not mine.

I wish you well, and I wish me well. Retainer is being paid on Monday . I am trying to get into mediation right away. I am sending her half the savings account so she can pay her own attorney. Which costs nearly double mine.

I wish she could see thr pain she has caused me but I realize she will never realize.

So we are both doing this at the same time and it is brutal, and it hurts. But stay the course.  You deserve better than to be raged at and forced to have sex. Alot better!

[ForeverDad]

As much as you hurt and feel all the things you do and are facing the need to those hopes and dreams, there is one more task before you, not to be lost among everything you're experiencing now...

Your kids need you, desperately, even though they don't quite know how to express it, are sabotaged by their mother and it may be years before they thank you.  Be the best, most involved father you can be.

The adult relationship is toast, so to speak, but you will always be their father.  Likely your spouse will be determined to remove you from the kids' lives.  Many of us had allegations of DV or child abuse immediately thrown at us in an attempt to sabotage you.  Doesn't matter that she never filed complaints against you for all the umpteen years you've been together, now that your mentioned the D word, the claws will come out.  As my ex tried, she may claim that though she is the aggressive one, she'll pose as an abused victim, expecting officialdom to believe her and let her walk off with the kids.  The system is structured to give women default credibility - at first.

You can't sit back and let her sabotage your parenting.  As much as possible you need to get the best (least bad) temp order in court.  This is not a time to be "nice" or "fair".  Yes, you will never be nasty, but your kids need you to be as much of a father as you can be.

In my case, the court defaulted to their standard temp order... mother gets temp custody and father gets alternate weekends and the bills.  Court eventually saw the conflict and blocking was always on my ex's side but still they never adjusted the temp order until the final decree two years later.  Try to avoid a lousy temp order since you might be stuck with it a lot longer than you expect.

Meanwhile, protect yourself.  Do you have William Eddy's essential handbook, SPLITTING: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

[CravingPeace]

Thanks forever dad, I have hired a reasonably expensive attorney part of a firm of 17 that only do divorce and they all work together in my county. They litigate alot. I have instructed I want a quick deal. However if she tries anything on to turn the screws fast .

He said if she tries anything on he will strike back with pysc evals and our own temp order petition. He said he and his firm have dealt with NPD and BPD cases unfortunately quite a bit.

Does that sound right? For defense

[PeteWitsend]

I guess I'm still grieving the family and the life I was supposed to have had. The one I thought I was going to have when I first married this guy and when we bought our house and when I decided to have a kid with him.

I'm going to lose the house I've lived in for 12 years and have to move into an apartment. I'm an outdoorsy person and really prefer living in a house. We have a nice big yard with lots of trees. I'm leaving behind several fruit trees I planted, some of which are just now starting to mature and get fruit. I'm leaving behind the raised bed vegetable garden we built together, and the herb garden by the back door. I'm leaving behind the grave of one of my cats and a tree I planted when my dad died that I sprinkled some of his cremation ashes onto.

I'm probably not going to be able to go to my church anymore, because I started going because his parents went there, and his mom and sister and brother-in-law still go there and are active there, and so that will be awkward at best. At worst, his family might totally turn against me for being so evil to divorce him. I'm really not sure how they'll react.

I don't like leaving my in-laws either. I've spent most holidays with them since I got married. Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter... because I don't get along with my FOO. I've always gotten along well with them, especially with my mother-in-law. Now I'm not going to have any family at all.

I guess that's what I mean when I say I feel like I'm throwing my whole life away. I'm not just grieving the relationship with my husband, which has been lousy for several years now, but there's a lot that goes along with him too.

Why do you think you're going to lose the house?  Is it jointly owned? 

Do you expect he'll be able to buy you out? 

If thinking of what you lost is getting you down, remember you're only losing the expectation you had of those things; the happy family you wanted to have and thought you could have, came with an asterisk in the form of you H's possibly/likely BPD. 

Focus on what you DO have, and what you can have going forward... you have your daughter.  You'll be able to make a safe, calm home for her.  And yeah, she'll probably still have to see her dad for a while, and you won't be able to have a clean break, and there will likely be more conflict with him down the road, but it won't be in your own home.  You can lock the doors and night and know that the source of conflict is outside them, and can't (legally) enter. 

[ForeverDad]

While a psych eval might be helpful, it is only a cursory overview of an individual.  It likely does not address specifics such as custody or parenting of a child.  If he contests it or seeks more custody or parenting than you believe appropriate, then you may need an in-depth Custody Evaluation that digs deeper into your family's dynamic in order to make a recommendation to the court.

From a post I made on the past Nov 23... keep in mind that your experience may not be as difficult, a lot depends on how much your stbEx will obstruct.  If your stbEx has not been an involved parent before now, he may not contest your parenting too much.  He will still try to sabotage you, but how much won't be known in advance.

Most divorces here take many months or sometimes even a year or two.  (This is common for us because most of our ex-spouses must fight or are super-possessive of the children.)  My impression is most family courts are jammed with cases and progress in a case is slow.  You're assigned a time slot for a hearing, often just a half hour, and it may be scheduled for an appearance in a month or two.  Judges & lawyers are used to the slow page.  For you it's your life and parenting at stake, for them it's just another day at work.  My divorce had about a dozen hearings, it was a two year case.  Then my ex kept causing problems and we were in and out of court for another few years with incremental improvements.

So be prepared for a slow pace.  However, beware with being unprepared for the temp order hearing.  Warning: Get the best (or least bad) temp order because it may be a long time  before it gets fixed.  As I am a father, mine had a bad start (judge defaulted to preference for mother) and didn't get fixed until the final decree two years later.

Summary of my process, no cooperation from ex:

• Initial hearing... rubber stamped temp hearing for temp order
• Mediation... these are attempts, we try but nearly all of us can't negotiate with an unreasonable ex so it usually fails and we go back to court
• Parenting Investigation by court social worker who is not licensed for custody matters
• Custody Evaluation which can take months and $$$
• Judge & lawyer discuss CE report
• Settlement conference (mine failed in 5 minutes)
• Trial day (full day) scheduled for 4 months later
• Trial Day - ex surprised me, ready to negotiate

[PeteWitsend]

...

From a post I made on the past Nov 23... keep in mind that your experience may not be as difficult, a lot depends on how much your stbEx will obstruct.  If your stbEx has not been an involved parent before now, he may not contest your parenting too much.  He will still try to sabotage you, but how much won't be known in advance.

In my experience, you see their lazy side conflict with their desire for vengeance.  It also seems like once in court, their bark is worse than their bite.  They will squawk about a lot of things, but no one really cares, and if they start to waste the judge's or the mediator's time, they'll get slapped into reality pretty quickly. 

So they might demand a lot of things they have no interest in actually doing once the divorce is over and they have something/someone else to occupy their time.  It's important to ensure that their failure to follow through on obligations doesn't affect the non-BPD parent in the long run. 

And always document all the continued issues in case you have to go back to court.  An acquaintance of mine had to share more custody with her ex (likely a NPD case), but over time he was shirking his parenting time and leaving the kids with her more and more, even though he was paying less in child support based on his time with them.  She's had to document this and accumulate evidence in order to be able to go back to court and get the full measure of child support he should've been paying all along if it accurately reflected the amount of time she's had with her kids. 

[Gerda]

PeteWitsend,

My plan with regards to the house is for him to buy me out. The house might be a complicated issue because he bought it before we were married, but it was only like a month before, and after that I contributed to half the mortgage payments. Then I talked him into putting my name on the title since I was contributing to the mortgage payments. And then a couple of years ago he decided he wanted to go ahead and pay it off early. He used up most of his savings doing that, and then demanded that I pay him back for half of it since my name is on the title, so I used a big chunk of money I inherited when my father died to pay him. (Oh, and I also contributed to half the cost of various household repairs and remodeling we've done over the years.)

So our house is paid off, and I really, really hope that I'm entitled to half of its value because my name is on the title and I contributed to the mortgage payments and to the early payoff. I hope it doesn't count as separate property because he bought it right before we were married, and it's like I've just been paying him rent this whole time.

I plan on using my half of the value of the house that I will hopefully get on a down payment on my own house. My husband has made it clear during several rants that he views this house as his, and that I should be grateful that he's allowing me to live here. (He's also said several times that he regrets putting my name on the title because I don't deserve it.) So my plan is to let him have it, but he needs to pay me for my half. I don't think I'd be able to afford a down payment on a house myself if I don't get that payment.

[Gerda]

Yesterday my husband called in sick to work so that he could stay home and have sex with me while our daughter was at preschool.

And then he spent the whole rest of the day ranting and raging at me about various topics until it was time to pick 4D up. Now I'm completely drained and exhausted. It's tough listening to someone rant about all the things they hate about you and all the things you do wrong for six hours straight.

I guess it's good he didn't end up doing this in the middle of the night and kept me up until 3 or 4 am like he's done before. At least he let me actually sleep last night. And it's a good thing 4D wasn't around to witness it this time.

I just can't take this anymore. He used to do these hours-long rants before we had our daughter (often starting in the evening and then going late into the night), but the difference was that before he'd be ranting about how upset he is about various other things, and he'd only do it once every month or two. After our daughter he started doing it more like once a week and the topic of his rage became me and all the things he doesn't like about me and our relationship.

Now I know this is the so-called "BPD rage." It's one of the  I didn't know about before we got married and had our kid. I thought I was being nice to him by being a shoulder to cry on/sounding board to him. Just like I used to listen to my mom rant for hours and hours and then I'd feel exhausted and drained for days afterwards.

Of course now he's acting all happy like he feels so much better now that he got sex and then got all that anger and rage of his chest, at least for now.

I worry sometimes that once I do divorce him, since he won't have me to unload on anymore, he'll turn to our daughter instead. I had kind of a "vision" or "premonition" one time when I was thinking about all this. In the daydream, our daughter was older, like 10-12, and was over at her Dad's house for visitation. She called me begging me to come get her because Dad is in rage again, and he's been going for hours and hours, and it's 2 am or so and he won't let her go to sleep.

[PeteWitsend]

PeteWitsend,

My plan with regards to the house is for him to buy me out. The house might be a complicated issue because he bought it before we were married, but it was only like a month before, and after that I contributed to half the mortgage payments. ...

I can't imagine you wouldn't be entitled to half of the house, regardless of whether you're in a community property state or not.

Out of an abundance of caution, I would work on collecting any and all bank statements and transaction records showing evidence that you contributed to both paying the mortgage and paying it off.  It might take your bank longer to produce the records or they might charge a small fee for them if it was too long ago. 

Your attorney should be able to advise you on this... there must be a ton of case law about this issue, since the home is usually a couple's biggest asset.

I had to do this when BPDxw started accusing me of "stealing" money from her; had to show my personal investment account was established before we got married, and I never deposited a cent into it during our marriage.  It was approx. 10 years worth of monthly account statements!

[PeteWitsend]

...

I just can't take this anymore. He used to do these hours-long rants before we had our daughter (often starting in the evening and then going late into the night), but the difference was that before he'd be ranting about how upset he is about various other things, and he'd only do it once every month or two. After our daughter he started doing it more like once a week and the topic of his rage became me and all the things he doesn't like about me and our relationship.

...

Well... look at it this way: he's removing any doubts you had about choosing the right course of action by leaving him. 

I know how hard it is to have a kid or kids and essentially have to leave without them, and think you're "killing" the family... dashing all those happy memories into pieces. 

But it's not your fault.  Your only mistake - if it can be called that - was getting into a relationship with a disordered person.  And b/c you have your daughter, you can take that positivity from it as a silver lining; it wasn't all bad, just his behavior.

You can't afford to be sentimental about it, at least not right now.  The pwBPD certainly won't be - they're only focused on themselves. 

I worry sometimes that once I do divorce him, since he won't have me to unload on anymore, he'll turn to our daughter instead. I had kind of a "vision" or "premonition" one time when I was thinking about all this. In the daydream, our daughter was older, like 10-12, and was over at her Dad's house for visitation. She called me begging me to come get her because Dad is in rage again, and he's been going for hours and hours, and it's 2 am or so and he won't let her go to sleep.

It probably won't be like that.  He'll badmouth you to your daughter and try to manipulate her into going along with it while she's with him.  If she stands up to him, he'll probably pull away first.  Just like all BPD parents do when their kid stops acting like an extension of the parent.

She'll learn for the sake of keeping the peace to stay quiet anout mom when she's with her dad.

The advice I got from my D's therapist was not to engage in back and forth, and to allow your child to make up their own mind, and understand you loved them unconditionally.

When one parent is pushing the kids around mentally, and telling them things they know aren't true, that parent only loses credibility in the long run and the kids learn not to trust them. 

Honestly if you can get your D a counselor for a while, do it.  It was as beneficial for me as it was for my kid, and I learned a lot from it. 

[PeteWitsend]

I forgot to add, it's good for you that you'll likely end up with primary custody and be able to have your D with you most of the time, if not all of the time - during the period of initial separation.  You'll be able to protect your daughter from the worst of it, when emotions are at their most heated.

[CravingPeace]

Hi Gerda,

Depends on the state. But if he bought it with his own assets before you married, he may have a case for the initial down payment to be his. However I think you said you have lived there 12 years. You should be able to get 50% of the equity outside the down payment, so all the contributions to paying off the mortgage plus the growth in value of the house. I on the other hand put the down payment down, I also overpaid mortgage with inheritance and hard graft. She will get half of everything as I sold my property from before marriage, and put it into this property during marriage so it is comingled and hence a marital asset.

Personally I am more worried about custody than assets at this point. I can always go earn more money. Within reason of course.

[ForeverDad]

My ex started counseling for our 3 year old preschooler - evidently play therapy - when we separated.  I didn't even know until months later when my insurance (oops) sent a recertification letter, what a surprise.

Eventually I learned that my then-stbEx was trying to convince everyone how evil I was.  At some point, not sure if then or later, I complained to my divorce lawyer and he replied, "Courts love counseling!"

So if your spouse doesn't want your little girl to have counseling, then you can include that request in your filing to the court.  Judge will almost certainly allow it.

[Gerda]

I've got our daughter in counseling right now because of her behavioral problems at preschool kind of forced us to. I'm actually treading very carefully here to NOT tell her preschool teachers or counselors much about what's going on at home, because they're mandatory reporters and my therapist warned me that if I told them what I've told her, they might call CPS on me (and then she felt she had to explain why she hasn't called CPS on me yet). My therapist said I'm in a gray area here because my husband hasn't directly abused my daughter, but he does abuse me in front of her, and that's already pretty bad.

I also don't really want to make my husband look bad to my daughter's teachers, because even after the divorce, they'll still have to deal with him sometimes (like when it's time for him to pick her up from school for his custody time), and I don't want to make that too awkward for everyone.

My husband has been kind of OK with our daughter being in therapy so far, though he has some reservations. The play therapist explained to me that when counseling a minor, they don't tell the parents every little thing that goes on, because the child is their client, not the parents, so she is entitled to some confidentiality. I actually liked that, but when I later explained it to H, he was like, "I don't like that at all!" and said he wants the counselor to tell us every little thing that happens.

Which just kind of goes along with how my H doesn't have any respect for people's boundaries. This is why I didn't want to let him know that I'm in therapy, because I knew he'd be like, "What did you talk about in therapy today? Anything about me? What bad things are you saying about me?"

My therapist did say that if my husband ends up demanding that I pull 4D out of therapy, it will make him look bad to the court (though her ending play therapy wouldn't be the best thing for her because it's probably helping her). I hope she's right. I also worry about some threats my husband has made that he'll tell the courts that I'm in therapy, and that will show them that I'm really the crazy one here, not him (because he's not in therapy and I am). I wonder if I have some kind of proof, like an email or something, about how our marriage counselor recommended that we both go into individual therapy but my husband refused. Maybe that I can show that I'm the one who's actually doing what I should be doing here.

I've been pretty depressed since Monday because a lot of what my husband said on Monday was stuff about how I'm really the abusive one here, not him, and that our daughter's problems are my fault, not his, and I'm turning out to be just like my mother (who multiple therapists of mine have told me probably has BPD), and that I abuse our daughter because of this time or that time I lost my temper with her (or nearly did).

And then I get on this board and there's all these men here with wives/exes with BPD messing up their kid's lives and I'm back to, "Is he right? Am I the abusive one here? Am I the one who has the disorder here?" I'm sure if my husband knew about this board, he could get on here and rant about me and how I'm probably crazy and it would look just like what other men post on here.

Though a bit later he started ranting again about how bad it is that I have her in preschool instead of being a stay at home mom like a "normal" family should, and I was like, "Wait a minute, just a little while ago you were talking about how abusive I am!" I then went on to say that if I am an abusive mother, then why does he want her to spend MORE time with me? When a kid has an abusive parent, you should want them to spend LESS time with the abusive parent, and more time with other, non-abusive adults, so isn't she better off with her preschool teacher than with me all day?

That gave him pause for a little while, but eventually he started talking about how I just don't listen to him or understand what he's saying, and the marriage counselor was right that we just don't communicate well.

[jaded7]

Yesterday my husband called in sick to work so that he could stay home and have sex with me while our daughter was at preschool.

And then he spent the whole rest of the day ranting and raging at me about various topics until it was time to pick 4D up. Now I'm completely drained and exhausted. It's tough listening to someone rant about all the things they hate about you and all the things you do wrong for six hours straight.

and
Gerda....this must be so confusing, and frightening if I'm honest. He both wants to have sex and also yells at you and rants about all the things about you he hates? I recall an earlier post where you were asking about this kind of situation...where he wants you but also hates you, thinks you're a horrible person, bad for your daughter etc.

Others with experience with divorce are helping you here, that's great. But someone wants to have sex with you and then yells at you and puts you down for hours?? That's absolutely crazy-making, at least it would be to me.

In fact, I experienced something similar. My ex would go on hours long rants against me. To the point I was crying in hurt and frustration, and she'd keep going. One in particular was similar to your recent experience....she wanted to come over for sex, but because of a long and vicious verbal attack the week before I was not feeling it, but still loved her. So I told her I didn't think we were ready for that. I was confused,  how could she want to have sex with a person she very recently exploded at and belittled and put down for hours?? I mean, it felt like she hated me.  I couldn't make any sense of it, and certainly felt emotionally unsafe with her. After saying gently no, I'd call her though after my work....which she rejected and I had to repeat it 3 times, she got mad and hung up. Then showed up to my business anyway, then came over and attacked me until 3 in the morning. In a matter of 4 hours she went from wanting sex with me, ignoring my boundaries I clearly set, and just showing up only to belittle me and put me down for hours.

I feel your confusion Gerda. I don't know you, but you are a person here on the boards who is trying to make sense of things in your relationship, so you have some insight and desire to make things better or escape as my be the case. To me, the confusion is the very clear sign.....you've been called a lot of things, placed in very confusion situations, told you are 'bad' in many ways. It's very common in these situations to internalize all of this. I did myself, I still do 4 years later.

As a man, I just wanted to share that I see you and recognize your confusion.

[kells76]

Before I made an official call to CPS, I made two or three "hypothetical" calls, because I wanted to know as much as possible about how the process might play out.

My general stance up until then had been that government should stay the heck out of family life. I was reticent to involve CPS, even with me being the reporting party, because it would mean they'd get involved in our home as well as the kids' mom's home.

Without fail everyone I spoke with at CPS (and I think talked with at least six workers) was helpful, understanding, neutral/nonjudgmental, supportive, communicative, and open about what would probably happen and what they couldn't confirm would or wouldn't happen. They let me know what was "assignable" and what was not, how they might intervene, the likely timeline for when we could expect contact (i.e., 2 hours, 24 hours, 24-72 hours, 2 weeks, etc -- in our situation we got initial home visits ~47 hours after the reporting call)

If you call your state's reporting line and say you have some questions about a hypothetical situation, you should be able to talk with a screener. You can keep reiterating that it is "hypothetical" and you just want to learn about likely outcomes/processes. They do not somehow record your phone number or secretly get your name and initiate anything without your knowledge, if it is not an official reporting call.

I would highly recommend you try that in your situation. You can explain where you (or a hypothetical person!) are at in the separation/divorce process and share concerns about what an initiation of CPS involvement might do. They may have ideas for help/support that you just didn't think of or weren't aware of.

I'm also guessing you've talked with a DV hotline, too? I made 2 calls to our local one before the CPS call. DV hotlines are not mandatory reporters so you can share whatever you want and they also won't initiate any kind of action behind your back.

[CravingPeace]

"That gave him pause for a little while, but eventually he started talking about how I just don't listen to him or understand what he's saying, and the marriage counselor was right that we just don't communicate well."

Verbatim "you never listen to me". Although I used to get told "I don't communicate well", but this was recently changed it to "I don't communicate well with her", to finally "we don't communicate well".

I know sometimes it feels like maybe it is you. I sat and listened to a recording of my therapy, where I talked for 10 minutes about things she has done and how bad it was. Yes these were not good things but what a pathetic victim I sounded like. I thought wow maybe this is me. But the abuse has been real, but I have allowed it to happen, due to codependency which I traced back to being sent away for school, having to fit in, comply to not get bullied etc.

I know you may be questioning is it you after you hear all the men here complaining about their wifes. The fact you are questioning this probably means it isn't you with BPD. But you may well be very codependent. Many of us here are. The answer is to ask "what do I want out of this situation", "what do I need", "How do I make this better". Take back control and don't focus on him.

[Gerda]

and
Gerda....this must be so confusing, and frightening if I'm honest. He both wants to have sex and also yells at you and rants about all the things about you he hates? I recall an earlier post where you were asking about this kind of situation...where he wants you but also hates you, thinks you're a horrible person, bad for your daughter etc.

Others with experience with divorce are helping you here, that's great. But someone wants to have sex with you and then yells at you and puts you down for hours?? That's absolutely crazy-making, at least it would be to me.

In fact, I experienced something similar. My ex would go on hours long rants against me. To the point I was crying in hurt and frustration, and she'd keep going. One in particular was similar to your recent experience....she wanted to come over for sex, but because of a long and vicious verbal attack the week before I was not feeling it, but still loved her. So I told her I didn't think we were ready for that. I was confused,  how could she want to have sex with a person she very recently exploded at and belittled and put down for hours?? I mean, it felt like she hated me.  I couldn't make any sense of it, and certainly felt emotionally unsafe with her. After saying gently no, I'd call her though after my work....which she rejected and I had to repeat it 3 times, she got mad and hung up. Then showed up to my business anyway, then came over and attacked me until 3 in the morning. In a matter of 4 hours she went from wanting sex with me, ignoring my boundaries I clearly set, and just showing up only to belittle me and put me down for hours.

I feel your confusion Gerda. I don't know you, but you are a person here on the boards who is trying to make sense of things in your relationship, so you have some insight and desire to make things better or escape as my be the case. To me, the confusion is the very clear sign.....you've been called a lot of things, placed in very confusion situations, told you are 'bad' in many ways. It's very common in these situations to internalize all of this. I did myself, I still do 4 years later.

As a man, I just wanted to share that I see you and recognize your confusion.

Thanks jaded. Yeah, I hope this finally puts the nail in the coffin of the whole idea that the only problem with our relationship is we don't have sex enough, and if we just had sex more everything would be fine. Doesn't seem to be working. Of course he'll keep claiming that again and again, but at least *I* know that's not what's really going on here.

I actually thought the sex Monday morning went well too. And then after that he started talking about this building project he's working on (he's building a carport in our driveway), and I was just sitting there listening to him go on and on about it. But then he started talking about how hard it is for him to do this by himself (he usually works on it on weekends while I am watching 4D), but he doesn't have any friends to help him. Then that led him into how my friends all hate him now for no reason (at least according to him - I know it's actually because I've started telling them about some of his abuse), which then reminded him about that camping trip I took back in April for the solar eclipse where I took 4D with me but he wasn't invited (I posted a whole thread about that here after this happened), and how he spent all weekend texting me threatening to report 4D kidnapped, and I told my friends that he was making those threats, which made him look bad in front of them and "publicly humiliated" him, and he just kept getting more and more worked up into a rage remembering all that.

And once he gets himself worked up he just can't calm down for hours and hours. That just leads to another thing after that, and another thing after that, and finally it's time to pick up 4D from school, and I'm like, "Are you done yet? You're not going to keep going after [daughter] is home, are you?" Thankfully this time he didn't.

Of course since then he's been doing the thing where he blocks me in the house (like standing in doorways or in the middle of the hallway), and when I try to get through he grabs me and forces me to hug him and kiss him. And when I told him I don't really feel like it, now I'm the bad guy for being mad at him.

So yes, I just can't take these crazy mood swings anymore. I'm glad that at least now I know it is crazy. He loves me in the morning, hates me by that afternoon, then the next day he loves me again.

Most people aren't like this, right?

[Gerda]

If you call your state's reporting line and say you have some questions about a hypothetical situation, you should be able to talk with a screener. You can keep reiterating that it is "hypothetical" and you just want to learn about likely outcomes/processes. They do not somehow record your phone number or secretly get your name and initiate anything without your knowledge, if it is not an official reporting call.

I would highly recommend you try that in your situation. You can explain where you (or a hypothetical person!) are at in the separation/divorce process and share concerns about what an initiation of CPS involvement might do. They may have ideas for help/support that you just didn't think of or weren't aware of.

I'm also guessing you've talked with a DV hotline, too? I made 2 calls to our local one before the CPS call. DV hotlines are not mandatory reporters so you can share whatever you want and they also won't initiate any kind of action behind your back.

The thing I'm worried about is being too open with my daughter's teachers and counselors, and then them contacting CPS. The latest incident was my daughter hitting a classmate in the face. Most incidents she's had at school seem to correlate with her witnessing fights at home. I even wonder if she hit that other kid because she's seen her dad threaten to hit me a few times when I made him angry, so she's learned from his example that reacting that way to someone who makes you angry is acceptable.

But I've been playing dumb with her teachers when they ask me, "is anything going on at home that we should know about?" because my therapist said that "it wouldn't be unreasonable" for someone to call CPS if they find out a child's dad is threatening her mom in front of her. Then my therapist told me that she hasn't called CPS herself because she doesn't think they would really do anything in this situation, and it would just make my husband angry. But she did say that if my husband ever does actually hit me, or hit 4D, then she'll report.

I think she's trying to give me a chance to leave on my own before that happens.

I haven't actually called the DV hotline yet. It says something on there about "high call volume," so I feel like I shouldn't be taking up their time when there are other people in there who need it more than me. But I have read a bunch of articles on their website that have been very helpful for me to understand my situation.

[ForeverDad]

My therapist said I'm in a gray area here because my husband hasn't directly abused my daughter, but he does abuse me in front of her, and that's already pretty bad.

Back when I dealt with CPS in the early days, even before separation, and I reported she was ranting and raging with our preschooler right there, they said it wasn't quite actionable but to call back if my then-spouse started directing her abuse toward our child.   Depending on your local reporting policies, exposure to abuse may not rise to the level of being actionable.

By the way, I called CPS twice in the months before my separation and divorce.  I even gave my name, I actually wanted some level of documentation I had called them.

Which just kind of goes along with how my H doesn't have any respect for people's boundaries. This is why I didn't want to let him know that I'm in therapy, because I knew he'd be like, "What did you talk about in therapy today? Anything about me? What bad things are you saying about me?"

The closer you get to a decision to end the adult relationship, the more important it is not to share (or "confess") every little thing.  You may not realize which disclosure (or confession as he would see it) could result in him sabotaging you, your parenting or your strategies.

This is where you also defend your rights to privacy and confidentiality.  You do know you have a right to privacy and confidentiality?  It's an aspect of setting proper Boundaries.

My therapist did say that if my husband ends up demanding that I pull 4D out of therapy, it will make him look bad to the court (though her ending play therapy wouldn't be the best thing for her because it's probably helping her). I hope she's right. I also worry about some threats my husband has made that he'll tell the courts that I'm in therapy, and that will show them that I'm really the crazy one here, not him (because he's not in therapy and I am).

He's uninformed.  Court and the surrounding professionals have seen marital discord (and mental health issues, though they won't officially admit it) in hundreds of cases.  He won't fool them, at least not for long.

While therapists and counselors usually avoid court testimony (to avoid lawsuits or complaints to licensing boards), they do consult with court appointed experts such as parenting coordinators, custody evaluators and Guardians ad Litem (GAL - child's lawyer).

Guard your documents well, keep them where your spouse does not have any physical or electronic access.  And don't cave to demands you delete or destroy evidence of poor behavior.

I've been pretty depressed since Monday because a lot of what my husband said on Monday was stuff about how I'm really the abusive one here, not him, and that our daughter's problems are my fault, not his, and I'm turning out to be just like my mother (who multiple therapists of mine have told me probably has BPD), and that I abuse our daughter because of this time or that time I lost my temper with her (or nearly did).

Don't let him manipulate you into believing his disparagement.  Have you watched the infamous movie "Gaslight" (1944)?  You need to be strong enough in your resolve not to be convinced of another's Blaming and Blame Shifting.

And then I get on this board and there's all these men here with wives/exes with BPD messing up their kid's lives and I'm back to, "Is he right? Am I the abusive one here? Am I the one who has the disorder here?" I'm sure if my husband knew about this board, he could get on here and rant about me and how I'm probably crazy and it would look just like what other men post on here.

Believe me, there are many of us here who have been here for years and years in peer support.  While nothing is ever 100%, we can usually detect within a few paragraphs or posts when someone is more than a little "off".  While you are clearly distressed, you write as any of us would write.

If anything,you're being a little bit too fair with him.  What do I mean?  I've recently started mentioning in my posts that our good qualities such as a sense of "fairness" can lead us into a dangerous path where we are "too fair".  We instead need to stand up for what is right and what is best (less bad) for ourselves and our children.  Essentially, do not insist or assume your spouse will have a lot of time with your child.  While the court may expect him to have contact in the years to come, that is not your task.  Your task is to ensure you and your child are reasonably protected from poor behavior.  You probably can't avoid it all, but don't be complacent or enabling.

Though a bit later he started ranting again about how bad it is that I have her in preschool instead of being a stay at home mom like a "normal" family should, and I was like, "Wait a minute, just a little while ago you were talking about how abusive I am!" I then went on to say that if I am an abusive mother, then why does he want her to spend MORE time with me? When a kid has an abusive parent, you should want them to spend LESS time with the abusive parent, and more time with other, non-abusive adults, so isn't she better off with her preschool teacher than with me all day?

That gave him pause for a little while, but eventually he started talking about how I just don't listen to him or understand what he's saying, and the marriage counselor was right that we just don't communicate well.

And that is an example of his mental illness... it doesn't make logical sense and he doesn't even notice it.  And when you point it out, he just attacks from another direction.

These aspects of mental illness just don't make sense and in our acting-out cases the other is not receptive to correction or enlightenment.  So our strategies have to deal with "what is" and realize willing cooperation is not going to happen.

[kells76]

The thing I'm worried about is being too open with my daughter's teachers and counselors, and then them contacting CPS. The latest incident was my daughter hitting a classmate in the face. Most incidents she's had at school seem to correlate with her witnessing fights at home. I even wonder if she hit that other kid because she's seen her dad threaten to hit me a few times when I made him angry, so she's learned from his example that reacting that way to someone who makes you angry is acceptable.

That is something you can ask the CPS hotline about -- that "hypothetically" you are worried about other mandatory reporters making a report unbeknownst to you, while you are in the middle of a high conflict DV separation, and you're concerned that that will escalate the conflict and DV before you and D4 can make a safe exit.

But I've been playing dumb with her teachers when they ask me, "is anything going on at home that we should know about?" because my therapist said that "it wouldn't be unreasonable" for someone to call CPS if they find out a child's dad is threatening her mom in front of her. Then my therapist told me that she hasn't called CPS herself because she doesn't think they would really do anything in this situation, and it would just make my husband angry. But she did say that if my husband ever does actually hit me, or hit 4D, then she'll report.

Would you feel comfortable telling the teachers that both you and D4 are in therapy? It may help them feel like "at least there are professionals involved" -- I wonder if the teachers are concerned that there are no other mandatory reporters with eyes on things?

I haven't actually called the DV hotline yet. It says something on there about "high call volume," so I feel like I shouldn't be taking up their time when there are other people in there who need it more than me. But I have read a bunch of articles on their website that have been very helpful for me to understand my situation.

The DV hotline and CPS are for people just like you and me 

I promise you that you and I are not "prank callers" wasting their time.

Minimizing the situation ("other people need it more") doesn't mean that the situation isn't a big deal. Minimization is kind of symptomatic of being in a situation that is actually a candidate for hotline support.

...

ForeverDad is giving some good, straightforward advice -- I'd encourage you to lean on that, too.

[jaded7]

Thanks jaded. Yeah, I hope this finally puts the nail in the coffin of the whole idea that the only problem with our relationship is we don't have sex enough, and if we just had sex more everything would be fine. Doesn't seem to be working. Of course he'll keep claiming that again and again, but at least *I* know that's not what's really going on here.

I actually thought the sex Monday morning went well too. And then after that he started talking about this building project he's working on (he's building a carport in our driveway), and I was just sitting there listening to him go on and on about it. But then he started talking about how hard it is for him to do this by himself (he usually works on it on weekends while I am watching 4D), but he doesn't have any friends to help him. Then that led him into how my friends all hate him now for no reason (at least according to him - I know it's actually because I've started telling them about some of his abuse), which then reminded him about that camping trip I took back in April for the solar eclipse where I took 4D with me but he wasn't invited (I posted a whole thread about that here after this happened), and how he spent all weekend texting me threatening to report 4D kidnapped, and I told my friends that he was making those threats, which made him look bad in front of them and "publicly humiliated" him, and he just kept getting more and more worked up into a rage remembering all that.

And once he gets himself worked up he just can't calm down for hours and hours. That just leads to another thing after that, and another thing after that, and finally it's time to pick up 4D from school, and I'm like, "Are you done yet? You're not going to keep going after [daughter] is home, are you?" Thankfully this time he didn't.

Of course since then he's been doing the thing where he blocks me in the house (like standing in doorways or in the middle of the hallway), and when I try to get through he grabs me and forces me to hug him and kiss him. And when I told him I don't really feel like it, now I'm the bad guy for being mad at him.

So yes, I just can't take these crazy mood swings anymore. I'm glad that at least now I know it is crazy. He loves me in the morning, hates me by that afternoon, then the next day he loves me again.

Most people aren't like this, right?

Right? You have sex, he says that has been the problem, yet he's still able to easily and quickly work himself into a rage. And that then leads into another thing and another thing, maybe because of JADING (which was my issue before I knew about this), and voila...hours into it. Sex is not the issue. And it keeps going until you need to get your daughter.

You may find this funny and/or similar. My ex was really bullying me and coercing me into going to Mexico with her for a week and I was struggling because I had to get my business and it's classes covered....23 classes, plus opening and closing... and I had two other trips I needed to do in a 1.5 time period. And I mean daily aggressive phone calls that started with me saying 'hello!' or 'hi honey' and the first words out her mouth were "Wellll! Did you get the classes covered?" in an angry tone, or "I have the ticket for the flight to see your family ready right now, just SAY YES to Mexico and I'll push the button". I just couldn't get the business covered and I couldn't justify being out of town 3 times in a 1.5 month period. I had even suggested more local trips to the ocean or mountains for 3 days or so, but she rejected these with "don't you dare suggest an alternative!" When I told her I couldn't get the shifts covered, she said "just close it down for a week then!!!", which would have cost me thousands. I FINALLY just said NO, I'm not going. I'm sorry. What followed was a 2.5 hour session of her belittling me and yelling and calling me names. I had to hang up and go open my business, so I told her

"I need to go, I'm sorry, but I need to open my business for the evening and I'm already late. If you want to yell at me some more you're going to need to write down what you want to yell and do it another time"

She hung up in great anger.

You're 'are we done yet' sound EXACLY like my experience.

And clearly sex is not this issue here with you two. It's obvious. Yet, somehow he won't see it.

Strength to you Gerda.

[PeteWitsend]

I think once you realize the pwBPD is saying things that make no sense, or demanding contradictory things from you, that should be your sign that it's time to get off the ride.  You're in the twilight zone, and trying to make sense of it is fruitless.  This is when the type of communications techniques referenced on this site can defuse the situation. 

At such times, it has nothing to do with what they claim.  You're just there "filling the void" or the "bottomless pit" that is their self-identity. 

In my better moments, I would remember this, and be able to defuse the situation and leave.  Sometimes, though, BPDxw would catch on, and realize she still wanted to scream at me more, and at that point, I'd have to just leave the house and go for a walk.  or to the bar.  and of course that would trigger her fears of abandonment, so she'd escalate with something else crazy.

It's really hard.  I read somewhere else that trust forms the basis of every human relationship and is really the glue that holds society together.  We have to trust that our words mean the same thing to eachother or we couldn't communicate.  We trust that when a person says "I'm unhappy you did/didn't do XYZ" that's what they mean, and if they get that, or you stop doing that, they'd be happy.

When they don't actually mean what they say, it's very disorienting; you almost have to be constantly "reading between  the lines" with them, and even then, all you're doing - at best - is possibly buying yourself a little extra time before they dysregulate again.

[ForeverDad]

I think once you realize the pwBPD is saying things that make no sense, or demanding contradictory things from you, that should be your sign that it's time to get off the ride.  You're in the twilight zone, and trying to make sense of it is fruitless.  This is when the type of communications techniques referenced on this site can defuse the situation. 

At such times, it has nothing to do with what they claim.  You're just there "filling the void" or the "bottomless pit" that is their self-identity.

Over in our Topic discussing The Bridge there is a post there about The Backyard Black Hole.  (If you haven't read The Bridge, then please read it too.)

The Bridge
The Backyard Black Hole

In short, no matter what you do or say to comply, appease or whatever, there is little if anything you can do to help long term, BPD is a disorder most evident inside close relationships ... unless your spouse wants and tries to improve himself/herself.

[Gerda]

I think once you realize the pwBPD is saying things that make no sense, or demanding contradictory things from you, that should be your sign that it's time to get off the ride.  You're in the twilight zone, and trying to make sense of it is fruitless.  This is when the type of communications techniques referenced on this site can defuse the situation. 

At such times, it has nothing to do with what they claim.  You're just there "filling the void" or the "bottomless pit" that is their self-identity. 

In my better moments, I would remember this, and be able to defuse the situation and leave.  Sometimes, though, BPDxw would catch on, and realize she still wanted to scream at me more, and at that point, I'd have to just leave the house and go for a walk.  or to the bar.  and of course that would trigger her fears of abandonment, so she'd escalate with something else crazy.

Yeah at this point I'm just trying to keep the peace for another six weeks or so until I can move out.

In hindsight I probably should have come up with some excuse to leave on Monday and not sat through all that for hours. At first I thought things would be OK because after the sex, he'd be in a good mood for the rest of the day. He had planned to go out and work on the carport for the rest of the day afterward, but then it started raining so he couldn't. That's when he started talking to me instead.

And I tried to do my usual thing of just listening to him and nodding and not really responding much, but then he started getting himself worked up into a rage anyway, and then finally he started saying things that started really getting to me (accusing me of child abuse and so on), so unfortunately I started responding. (I guess JADE-ing is what it's called.)

But part of me might have been wanting to just test him a little bit and see if maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he can still be reasoned with, but nope. So the one good thing that came of all that is it made me even more sure that leaving him is the right thing to do. He's never going to stop acting this way no matter what I do.

[PeteWitsend]

...
But part of me might have been wanting to just test him a little bit and see if maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he can still be reasoned with, but nope. So the one good thing that came of all that is it made me even more sure that leaving him is the right thing to do. He's never going to stop acting this way no matter what I do.

I think you gotta remember that their minds are functionally different in a way; they're SUPER sensitive to perceived slights, and also perceive innocent gestures as signs of things they aren't. 

After a certain point, when BPDxw was on a roll, we couldn't even have a discussion about what she claimed she was initially upset about, because everything would devolve into accusing me of yelling or rolling my eyes (so what?) or using a "condescending tone" and she'd get so wound up about that, she wouldn't even be able to answer me if I asked what she was upset about or what she actually wanted.

It didn't matter... she had some brainworm about something and her only method of communication was fighting and arguing.  That made her feel secure and in control, I suppose.

So trying to reason with them is impossible when their goal is the argument, in an end to itself.  And when he sees you mentally withdrawing, he starts attacking you further to get a response.  No concern of his that those things might be untrue or unfair, his goal is provocation.

Another way to look at it:  when you're fighting with them, you're spending time with them, and to their disordered way of thinking, that's quality time.