Confusion at end of relationship with BPD partner and pathological lying.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi everyone,
It’s been 3 weeks and I am still in a state of shock. I have left my BDP partner of almost 3 years after a domestic incident. Nothing too bad happened but he was extremely angry and broke a toy in front of the kids.
He was only diagnosed last week so it’s all very fresh and of course now that he has this diagnosis I’m wondering what if id known, or if id stayed to help him - ruminating thoughts which are getting me nowhere.
I just feel so lost and helpless. I thought he was the love of my life. But when I look back there were signs (lots of them). He would leave everytime we had a fight sometimes for days. He would then blame me for them or make out that we were equally to blame when the only reason I was angry or yelling was to defend myself from the accusations of lying/cheating or that I didn’t love him. He’d tell me to go back to my ex, call me names (horrific names) and tell me no one would want me and still I went back. This of course seems ridiculous when you write it all down but I was trapped, I wanted to fix him and I loved him. But now I don’t know if it was real love. I don’t even know if he loved me like someone without BPD is capable of?
I’m so shocked and I feel like a shell. I also found out his drinking had got out of control when (recovering alcoholic) they he was buying it in the morning and drinking in private. When I confronted him with cold hard proof he flat out denied it! My trust is broken but he doesn’t get it. He thinks I should be able to forgive him because he is finally getting help but something inside me can’t. I want to so bad but it just hurts so much!
Has anyone else dealt with the pathological lying and made to feel like you are the crazy one?
Thank you for reading this long msg… it probably seems very disjointed but this is very fresh for me and I’m still trying to process it all.

[Sarahq]

Hi everyone,
It’s been 3 weeks and I am still in a state of shock. I have left my BDP partner of almost 3 years after a domestic incident. Nothing too bad happened but he was extremely angry and broke a toy in front of the kids.
He was only diagnosed last week so it’s all very fresh and of course now that he has this diagnosis I’m wondering what if id known, or if id stayed to help him - ruminating thoughts which are getting me nowhere.
I just feel so lost and helpless. I thought he was the love of my life. But when I look back there were signs (lots of them). He would leave everytime we had a fight sometimes for days. He would then blame me for them or make out that we were equally to blame when the only reason I was angry or yelling was to defend myself from the accusations of lying/cheating or that I didn’t love him. He’d tell me to go back to my ex, call me names (horrific names) and tell me no one would want me and still I went back. This of course seems ridiculous when you write it all down but I was trapped, I wanted to fix him and I loved him. But now I don’t know if it was real love. I don’t even know if he loved me like someone without BPD is capable of?
I’m so shocked and I feel like a shell. I also found out his drinking had got out of control when (recovering alcoholic) they he was buying it in the morning and drinking in private. When I confronted him with cold hard proof he flat out denied it! My trust is broken but he doesn’t get it. He thinks I should be able to forgive him because he is finally getting help but something inside me can’t. I want to so bad but it just hurts so much!
Has anyone else dealt with the pathological lying and made to feel like you are the crazy one?
Thank you for reading this long msg… it probably seems very disjointed but this is very fresh for me and I’m still trying to process it all.

[HoratioX]

It's interesting  you posted this, as I recently learned my BPD (or CPTSD, anxiety, etc.) ex. was recently arrested for domestic violence.

One time, after drinking and coming back from a party we went to (where she'd openly flirted and dirty danced with a stranger to my consternation), she struck me a few times in the chest during an argument about her behavior. I certainly felt the blows, which she later apologized for, but shrugged them off at the time, as they'd happened so fast. The next morning, however, I had clear black and blue marks, enough I took pics with my phone.

The thing you realize about such people is their recollection of events may not be reality, and even if it is, they may lie anyway. So even though I didn't understand at the time the full range of her issues . . . and still don't, to be honest, as she seemed to be diagnosed differently depending on the therapist at the time, and even then, I only saw paperwork, so who knows the provenance . . . my instincts said I'd better document some things in case she suddenly recalled things differently. I, of course, never laid a hand on her. But in this day and age, where so many people think an accusation is proof, who would believe me if she decided to cast herself as the victim?

My point is the lying is absolutely constant and pathological, at least with many people with such issues. She even said she lied all the time. When caught in a lie, she either came up with a new lie, claimed not to remember (or remembered things differently), or just admitted it and acted like what was I going to do about it. So, that made her capable of doing or saying anything, even though nothing came of this incident.

Now, people say that when someone is undergoing treatment, they can get better and go into remission, sort of like an alcoholic enters a program and stops drinking. Some can never take another drink, but many do, and even the ones who don't are constantly tempted. So while I wouldn't say a pathological liar can't learn to tell the truth, I'm not too optimistic. And while I wouldn't say someone with BPD (etc.) can't get better, I think it takes an enormous amount of effort and, perhaps, not a little luck. Even then, the threat of relapse will always be there. If you stay with that kind of person, is that a chance you want to take?

My experience may be unique, but from what I've read, it's not. If you're wanting to get back together with your ex, thinking they will improve, just keep in mind the odds may not be in that favor. No, I'm not a therapist, so I certainly could be wrong. But were I you, I would think twice before even considering it.

[jaded7]

Hi everyone,
It’s been 3 weeks and I am still in a state of shock. I have left my BDP partner of almost 3 years after a domestic incident. Nothing too bad happened but he was extremely angry and broke a toy in front of the kids.
He was only diagnosed last week so it’s all very fresh and of course now that he has this diagnosis I’m wondering what if id known, or if id stayed to help him - ruminating thoughts which are getting me nowhere.
I just feel so lost and helpless. I thought he was the love of my life. But when I look back there were signs (lots of them). He would leave everytime we had a fight sometimes for days. He would then blame me for them or make out that we were equally to blame when the only reason I was angry or yelling was to defend myself from the accusations of lying/cheating or that I didn’t love him. He’d tell me to go back to my ex, call me names (horrific names) and tell me no one would want me and still I went back. This of course seems ridiculous when you write it all down but I was trapped, I wanted to fix him and I loved him. But now I don’t know if it was real love. I don’t even know if he loved me like someone without BPD is capable of?
I’m so shocked and I feel like a shell. I also found out his drinking had got out of control when (recovering alcoholic) they he was buying it in the morning and drinking in private. When I confronted him with cold hard proof he flat out denied it! My trust is broken but he doesn’t get it. He thinks I should be able to forgive him because he is finally getting help but something inside me can’t. I want to so bad but it just hurts so much!
Has anyone else dealt with the pathological lying and made to feel like you are the crazy one?
Thank you for reading this long msg… it probably seems very disjointed but this is very fresh for me and I’m still trying to process it all.

Welcome. I'm glad your found a place this is understanding and knowledgeable. And your post is not a long one! I've written many longer posts than that here, as there are many others as well. It's place to process and learn, and writing things out is a part of that.

Has anyone dealt with pathological lying and made to feel like you're the crazy one?

Yes. Very much so. It's part and parcel of the relationship with a person with bpd. In my last conversations my ex lied so many times about what had happened and what she said and what I said and what I did that I lost count. Lies so ridiculous that they were almost laughable.

Looking back, I now know she lied a lot in the relationship. It was part of her need to orchestrate things, hide things from me, get me to do things for her, rearrange situations to make me look wrong and bad. Evasion was a big part of it...ignoring calls, texts in order to 'set me up' for missing something or not doing something, or to hide what she was planning to do that she knew wasn't loving or respectful.

That last one became clear to me in the aftermath, strange situations where we had plans, had discussed things, then just ignoring my calls or texts to finalize the details on where to meet, or time. Just ignored and didn't hear from her for two days. This is a form of dishonesty, and made me go crazy trying to understand what was going on, what I had done.

[Pensive1]

re: "Has anyone else dealt with the pathological lying and made to feel like you are the crazy one?"

My BPD ex didn't overtly lie very much, but her recollection of events could be unreliable, and she would sometimes lie by omission (for example, after starting an affair). People with BPD have difficulty taking responsibility for their own actions, so in the case of my ex, psych issues were predominantly ascribed to me. And she would project her own behaviors onto me - for example, I would often apologize and she almost never would, but she then would claim that the reverse was true. It was mind-boggling.

I think my BPD stepson (my ex's son) can lie quite a lot to his partners, while portraying himself as exceptionally honest.

My best friend used to have DID, and at the time would probably have qualified for a diagnosis of comorbid BPD. She used to lie very, very frequently, even when there was absolutely no need to. After a decade of hard work in therapy, she no longer has DID (or BPD), and she doesn't really lie anymore.

[ChooseHappiness]

My xwBPD certainly distorts reality to match her feelings. She is always attributing abuse to others, particularly family members, to justify her abuse of them. Yet she can't seem to see she is the common factor in one estrangement after another (family, friends, children). For what it's worth, I don't think the abuse she alleges even happened.

She distorts her recollection of her own behaviour as well. She recently told me she was the main parent of our children and I was absent, despite the fact that she hasn't been involved in their lives for a decade or so and everyone knows I've been solo parenting them -- family, neighbours, school officials, etc.

Are these lies or just disassociation from reality? Who really knows? The end result is more or less the same for me. I know I don't want to be connected to someone who is incapable of even sharing the same perception of reality as me.

[jaded7]

The thing you realize about such people is their recollection of events may not be reality, and even if it is, they may lie anyway....... But in this day and age, where so many people think an accusation is proof, who would believe me if she decided to cast herself as the victim?

My point is the lying is absolutely constant and pathological, at least with many people with such issues. She even said she lied all the time. When caught in a lie, she either came up with a new lie, claimed not to remember (or remembered things differently), or just admitted it and acted like what was I going to do about it. So, that made her capable of doing or saying anything, even though nothing came of this incident.

Once you realize they will say almost anything, then you start to realize that will say almost anything about YOU and what you did or said. That can be a scary situation, if you think about it.

My ex told me her ex was really abusive, had NPD, was dangerous. She told me this a lot. Like more than was necessary, and I think this was part of her need to be victim. As I've said elsewhere, she very often forwarded to me his emails and texts to her and wanted me to support her and validate her in what she was doing to him or that he was a bad person. Yet I never sensed anything abusive in his communications, and I'm really sensitive to that kind of thing. Plus, I knew and observed her manipulating him, keeping important facts from him, and telling anyone who'd listen that he was a bad person and abusive, including teachers and school administrators.

In our last conversation, I told my ex she accuses me of and yells at me for things SHE does in the relationship. Then she proceeded, out of a dysregulated circular conversation, to accuse me of yelling at her in a long drive we took. I absolutely did not yell at her, and never yelled at her. She, in fact, yelled at me during that drive. That scared me. If she was able to accuse me of something adjacent to abuse, to the person (me) who best knew that it was false, what was she telling others? Or what would she tell others in the future?

"When caught in a lie, she either came up with a new lie, claimed not to remember (or remembered things differently), or just admitted it and acted like what was I going to do about it."

This is something I recognized after the confusion started to clear. In that exact sequence.....lie, change lie to new lie that directly contradicts the first lie, then when facts are presented to show both were just a lie, then just admit that it was all a lie and act like it was necessary or her right to lie.

Example: berated me for months for ruining an entire summer by canceling plans. Not true, never happened. Bullied me to make a Google calendar for us for the summer in order to 'fix' this issue. I made an appointment to meet her at a coffee shop to make the calendar for the summer and share Google accounts so we both had it. She then canceled the first event last second, the 2nd event last second, and when the next, a weekend at my place Friday through Sunday, she went missing on Friday, most of Saturday, and late afternoon Saturday suggested we watch a movie at my place. This was a first..and I was thinking what about our weekend together? After the movie, she said she was going home...I asked why? It's on the calendar?

1. "I didn't see it"- first immediate lie, she looked at her calendar many times per day. And of course bullied me as being a 'child' for not using Google calendar more, and 'cancelling plans'.
2. When I suggested that was nearly impossible for her to not see it, given her dependence on her calendar, it changed to "I thought it was only during the day". Which was nonsense, since she didn't come over during the day on Friday or Saturday. Which means excuse number one was a lie, they are mutually exclusive. You can't both "not see it" and think "it was only during the day".
3. It then became "I just wanted to see if you'd do it!". Which is to say, I manipulated you into making a calendar for event for us, but I had no intention of keeping my word.

Notice how the real reason becomes my fault, my shortcoming. I'm irresponsible and don't keep calendars (lie) and need to be forced into doing it. She was not ashamed to admit she lied and manipulated me. What are you going to do about it?

It is almost a child-like reflexive lying, and so bizarre when it is provably wrong.

This comes from a deeply damaged place.

[HoratioX]

Once you realize they will say almost anything, then you start to realize that will say almost anything about YOU and what you did or said. That can be a scary situation, if you think about it . . .

My ex with BPD (etc.) constantly waffled on her ex.

One minute, he was abusive and controlling. The next, he was her best friend and had been a terrific stepfather to her teenager.  She either couldn't get him out of her life because he wouldn't leave or held hostage her money and their joint interest in property and such or she didn't want him out of her life because he was a good man and a good friend, despite their no longer being romantically involved (she claimed).

But she would also say he had a temper, among other things, and she showed me messages she claimed he'd written to her when angry or throwing her out. To say they were cold and hurtful would be an understatement. Of course, I have no idea if he actually wrote those or she did.

Her stories were so inconsistent as to cast doubt on any of it, though I suspect there was some degree of truth to all of them, calibrated to whatever point she wanted to make that cast her in the best light.  I have no idea what she said about me, but given she told me her friends just didn't like me when we seemed to get along also made me suspicious.

She always seemed jealous when I got too close to anyone, especially any of her friends, and when she met one of my exes, spent a lot of time running her down. No, that ex wasn't quite as good looking as the one with BPD (etc.), but she certainly was attractive and, dare I say it, built even better. But to hear my ex with BPD (etc.) describe her, that ex was the most unattractive woman in the world. Now, I've had a few exes who could get jealous, but I'd never had one lower herself to the level of viciousness the one with BDP (etc.) did.

[HoratioX]

1. "I didn't see it"- first immediate lie, she looked at her calendar many times per day. And of course bullied me as being a 'child' for not using Google calendar more, and 'cancelling plans'.
2. When I suggested that was nearly impossible for her to not see it, given her dependence on her calendar, it changed to "I thought it was only during the day". Which was nonsense, since she didn't come over during the day on Friday or Saturday. Which means excuse number one was a lie, they are mutually exclusive. You can't both "not see it" and think "it was only during the day".
3. It then became "I just wanted to see if you'd do it!". Which is to say, I manipulated you into making a calendar for event for us, but I had no intention of keeping my word.

Notice how the real reason becomes my fault, my shortcoming. I'm irresponsible and don't keep calendars (lie) and need to be forced into doing it. She was not ashamed to admit she lied and manipulated me. What are you going to do about it?

It is almost a child-like reflexive lying, and so bizarre when it is provably wrong.

This comes from a deeply damaged place.

Mine did the make plans and cancel things a lot, too.

Usually, there was an excuse about her health. She was exhausted. Her anxiety was too high. Her medication was knocking her sideways. She was having a heavy period. She'd had a seizure -- she was prone to pseudoseizures as a byproduct of her condition (which at that point she'd described as either anxiety or C-PTSD, depending on which therapist she was seeing at the time).

Or she would bring up her memory problems, some of which, she said, were caused by the seizures. Now, I know people with epilepsy, and I know when they have seizures, they can essentially black out and not really remember the seizure. But they don't forget plans they made days before. The effect tends to be quite localized.

Or there would be technical issues. Her phone wasn't working. She'd changed plans and the new plan had problems. She claimed to have damaged or destroyed her phone at least five times while we were together. Each time, of course, she would then say she had trouble with the replacement.

She'd disappear for stretches. If I texted her, I might not hear back until hours later or the next day. Sometimes a few days would go by. Then she would contact me at odd hours, like after midnight or when I was at work and in a meeting. You know, times when if she was seeing someone else, she could get away and finally contact me discreetly.

Now, I'm not one of those people who feels I have to be in constant contact with someone I'm seeing. We weren't living together even though I did ask if she wanted to move in at one point. She said she did but couldn't because she didn't want her teenager to have to change schools. We never got past a certain point even when we were seeing each other pretty frequently. But the pattern was pretty clearly suspicious and exactly how someone cheating on someone else would behave.

Of course, if I called her on any of this, I was not trusting her or -- that C word a lot of women like to toss around -- controlling. And that is something I definitely do not wish to be. And she was just klutzy and forgetful enough to, again, give her stories some credibility if she were to tell others I was doing something wrong, not her. More than once I had to go back to restaurants because she'd left something there, for example. So, if she wanted to cast blame on me for not being understanding enough, she could do it by saying I wasn't being patient with her issues rather than she was lying or manipulating and didn't like being called out.

[jaded7]

Mine did the make plans and cancel things a lot, too.

Usually, there was an excuse about her health. She was exhausted. Her anxiety was too high. Her medication was knocking her sideways. She was having a heavy period. She'd had a seizure -- she was prone to pseudoseizures as a byproduct of her condition (which at that point she'd described as either anxiety or C-PTSD, depending on which therapist she was seeing at the time).

Or she would bring up her memory problems, some of which, she said, were caused by the seizures. Now, I know people with epilepsy, and I know when they have seizures, they can essentially black out and not really remember the seizure. But they don't forget plans they made days before. The effect tends to be quite localized.

Or there would be technical issues. Her phone wasn't working. She'd changed plans and the new plan had problems. She claimed to have damaged or destroyed her phone at least five times while we were together. Each time, of course, she would then say she had trouble with the replacement.

She'd disappear for stretches. If I texted her, I might not hear back until hours later or the next day. Sometimes a few days would go by. Then she would contact me at odd hours, like after midnight or when I was at work and in a meeting. You know, times when if she was seeing someone else, she could get away and finally contact me discreetly.

Now, I'm not one of those people who feels I have to be in constant contact with someone I'm seeing. We weren't living together even though I did ask if she wanted to move in at one point. She said she did but couldn't because she didn't want her teenager to have to change schools. We never got past a certain point even when we were seeing each other pretty frequently. But the pattern was pretty clearly suspicious and exactly how someone cheating on someone else would behave.

Of course, if I called her on any of this, I was not trusting her or -- that C word a lot of women like to toss around -- controlling. And that is something I definitely do not wish to be. And she was just klutzy and forgetful enough to, again, give her stories some credibility if she were to tell others I was doing something wrong, not her. More than once I had to go back to restaurants because she'd left something there, for example. So, if she wanted to cast blame on me for not being understanding enough, she could do it by saying I wasn't being patient with her issues rather than she was lying or manipulating and didn't like being called out.

"Usually, there was an excuse about her health. She was exhausted. Her anxiety was too high. Her medication was knocking her sideways. She was having a heavy period. She'd had a seizure -- she was prone to pseudoseizures as a byproduct of her condition (which at that point she'd described as either anxiety or C-PTSD, depending on which therapist she was seeing at the time)."

Yep, cancelling plans after berating me for non-existent cancelling of plans: "tired', "messages not working", the above "didn't see it", "thought it was only during the day". All kinds of excuses, but if I were to actually cancel plans? I imagine the anger, but I never did.

"She'd disappear for stretches. If I texted her, I might not hear back until hours later or the next day. Sometimes a few days would go by."

Yep, sometimes 3-4 days or even longer. No explanation why. If I asked why she wasn't communicating an explosion always happened, with accusing me of being controlling and "I gave you an itinerary for the weekend" (no you didn't) and "you need mental health help".

 I was the very furthest thing from controlling. I'd usually just let her be when she went silent for days. Or when she ignored my calls and texts and invitations to lunch. I did, one time, tell her that when she ignores my texts and calls for days or even a week, it's hurtful and dehumanizing and confusing since she says she loves me. Explosion followed, telling me she was spending time with her friends since they understand her life, and I'm uncultured and sit around all day at coffee shops doing nothing, and I don't follow Megan Markle, and I don't listen to podcasts.

Shocked, and figuring she broke up with me....she admitted to choosing her friends over me, admitted to ghosting and ignoring me on purpose, and spent 50 minutes in a Whole Foods deli telling me what a bad, disappointing person I am...I went to the coast and didn't respond immediately to her text the next day to 'talk tomorrow?' I needed time to process, I was hurt. Tuesday she sent an email telling me how cruel and punishing I am for not responding. I thought we broke up?!!!

 

[HoratioX]

"Usually, there was an excuse about her health. She was exhausted. Her anxiety was too high. Her medication was knocking her sideways. She was having a heavy period. She'd had a seizure -- she was prone to pseudoseizures as a byproduct of her condition (which at that point she'd described as either anxiety or C-PTSD, depending on which therapist she was seeing at the time)."

Yep, cancelling plans after berating me for non-existent cancelling of plans: "tired', "messages not working", the above "didn't see it", "thought it was only during the day". All kinds of excuses, but if I were to actually cancel plans? I imagine the anger, but I never did.

"She'd disappear for stretches. If I texted her, I might not hear back until hours later or the next day. Sometimes a few days would go by."

Yep, sometimes 3-4 days or even longer. No explanation why. If I asked why she wasn't communicating an explosion always happened, with accusing me of being controlling and "I gave you an itinerary for the weekend" (no you didn't) and "you need mental health help".

 I was the very furthest thing from controlling. I'd usually just let her be when she went silent for days. Or when she ignored my calls and texts and invitations to lunch. I did, one time, tell her that when she ignores my texts and calls for days or even a week, it's hurtful and dehumanizing and confusing since she says she loves me. Explosion followed, telling me she was spending time with her friends since they understand her life, and I'm uncultured and sit around all day at coffee shops doing nothing, and I don't follow Megan Markle, and I don't listen to podcasts.

Shocked, and figuring she broke up with me....she admitted to choosing her friends over me, admitted to ghosting and ignoring me on purpose, and spent 50 minutes in a Whole Foods deli telling me what a bad, disappointing person I am...I went to the coast and didn't respond immediately to her text the next day to 'talk tomorrow?' I needed time to process, I was hurt. Tuesday she sent an email telling me how cruel and punishing I am for not responding. I thought we broke up?!!!

 

Yep, I had similar experiences. She blew up at me a few times for being late to pick her up for things or come over to her place. Each time was for reasons out of my control -- usually construction-related traffic -- but she got over-the-top angry. At the same time, if she said she'd call or text at a certain time, it might be hours later or the next day before I heard from her. The ghosting was usually no more than a day or so, but then she knew my schedule pretty well and could work cheating in around it, just as if she was cheating on someone else with me, she could do the same, and neither party might know.

She did the choosing friends thing a few times. One of her friends had parties every few months, and suddenly wasn't having one over a holiday. That was weird to me given the history. I found out later they did have a party and she went. She just didn't tell me. When I found out, she said it was because they didn't like me, but that made no sense since we all got along pretty well. She'd do stuff and usually lie when caught.

[EyesUp]

So many of us share similar experiences.

Blame shifting, gaslighting, give it a name…

As we often say, “accusations are confessions.”

It’s good that OP recognizes the tendency to ruminate.  Breaking that cycle is a large part of moving forward.

A good therapist can help, but so can changing the channel in your head:  get out for a walk, see a show, try a new recipe, a new podcast, a new book.  Reconnect with the things that are meaningful to you (perhaps some things that your partner didn’t support?). 

Some things that happened are simply not going to make sense, so don’t get stuck:  move forward.

[jaded7]

So many of us share similar experiences.

Blame shifting, gaslighting, give it a name…

As we often say, “accusations are confessions.”

It’s good that OP recognizes the tendency to ruminate.  Breaking that cycle is a large part of moving forward.

A good therapist can help, but so can changing the channel in your head:  get out for a walk, see a show, try a new recipe, a new podcast, a new book.  Reconnect with the things that are meaningful to you (perhaps some things that your partner didn’t support?). 

Some things that happened are simply not going to make sense, so don’t get stuck:  move forward.

The accusations are confessions thing is said a lot about cluster B relationships, and it takes (for me, at least) a long time for that to really sink it. But it is, and I hope the OP can get there there quickly. The tendency to ruminate is related to trying to make two things that are opposite true, or our brains working to make things fit.....when they just don't. I'm at least happy to learn that it is very common.

The rumination is really painful and exhausting, as we all know. Changing the channel in your head is a very good suggestion.I especially like the idea of reconnecting with things that are meaningful to you. For me it's been learning and studying music theory on my guitar. It gives me immediate feedback, requires concentration, and really engages my brain.