Anyone else having trouble feeling close to a long-time pwBPD between episodes?

[olafinski]

Hi,
I am 52, married to a uBPD wife for 17 years, one 13yo son of our own and her 24yo son from 1st marriage living with us.
My wife lately has quite long periods when she's more or less OK, sometimes even 2-3 months. When episodes come, they last for a couple of hours to a day or two max.
My problem is that I am finding it hard to feel and be close to her when she is OK because I have developed a fear of saying or doing the wrong thing that might trigger her, so I basically most of my spirit and spontaneity.
As I also have a physical ED problem (diabetic type 1), even when she is OK she is starting to talk about divorce because "our marriage is like two roommates". Which is off course not true cause we share all of our lives and are always together. In 17 years I have been away from her only for a week altogether. We are a great team in handling all tough decisions and challenges of adult lives.
Also, she is a complicated person with a lot of fears and complexes and I am really in many ways a light of her life, always being here for her and praising her qualities (she is a really good person and very accomplished in "living a life", in practical, mundane tasks, and all things concerning beauty and aesthetics).
Also, our son is surely the best thing that ever happened to her and she says that often, and our divorce, now just at the start of his adolescence, would most probably do a lot of damage to him because we are all really close and spend most of our time all 3 together.

I would really like to somehow manage to get closer to her, in both physical and emotional way, but I am not sure how to do it, how to create that "space" in my head where I am not touched and hurt by what she says and does in episodes, and it lingers for months. The worst thing for me is that my son constantly sees me walking on eggshells, and also listens about me not being able to "get it up" quite often, mostly said as a half-joke, but he is old enough to understand whats going on.

Another problem is perhaps that I feel mid-life crisis and at times feel strongly attracted to younger attractive women. As we are not intimate for a couple of years now, I feel that my time for "that" is passing.

As she never wanted to be a partner in solving my sexual problems, and always told me that "this is your problem, you solve it", I was trying to really establish what's wrong with me with doctors and by trying different things, and found out that it is not a mental, but a physiological problem of circulation. Even with a whole Viagra (100mg), and with a top "service" of a very beautiful high-class escort that I took recently (after long hesitation, to make a final test to see if my problem is my libido, my attraction to my wife etc), I still could not reach full E like when I was younger, and what I got, went away quite fast. It was a both a horrible experience and a great relief at the same time. I was informed about other options, like injections and pumps, but I simply can not imagine my wife being ok with that kind of stuff. So it just might be that I will never again be able to have good penetrative intimacy, and I am not sure if she can imagine having intimacy at all if it is "weird", or simply not something that she "has in her mind" when she thinks about intimacy.

All of that makes me afraid of being close to her, and it's destroying whats left of our relationship.
I think that she will not proceed with the divorce because of our son, for at least some time, but I would anyways like to somehow make our relationship fell and look more like a romantic relationship between a man and a woman that have some passion between them.

Feeling really lost now. Any advice or sharing would be really appreciated cause I feel stuck.

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[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Olafinski-

I can most certainly understand why you feel lost and sad… you have every reason to feel the way you do and I am so so sorry. 

First, I believe that most of us here who are in relationships with disordered partners are pretty tender-hearted and willing to try most anything to understand and “heal” our partners and our relationships … sometimes an impossible thing, we do come to understand. 

I am a 66-year old woman and I am now in a relatively new relationship with a 67-year old man.  More on that later.

I’m glad you sought medical advice and pursued research for yourself in other areas.  I actually support you in that.  Sometimes a person has to do what a person has to do.  However I *do* think there still may be an emotional part of intimacy strongly missing for you in your marriage, which *could* be playing a role in your attraction to your wife.  There are several reasons I see it this way.

When our disordered partners have their cruel episodes, they recover once they’re done.  Us…. Not so much.. we bear the brunt of the cruelty and the fallout and those words and actions cut deeply.  It is NOT done and done for us.  At least that’s what I went through.  Is that what you’re experiencing?

I believe in “couples thinking”… whether two people are married or simply combining romantically.  And the intimacy between those two people takes active participation from both of them.  When your W says ED is “your problem”, my opinion is she is incorrect.  That is a couple’s issue.  Likewise when your W says anything demeaning or belittling about you in front of ANYONE, that is destructive, and would naturally erode any desire you may have for intimacy with her.  I know it would for me (a woman) or likely a man with any sense of himself.  These “jokes” don’t feel like jokes because they’re meant to be mean.  Love isn’t mean like this and somehow your wife needs to understand how this feels for you.

I am so sorry she engages in this immature behavior and how painful this feels for you; not to mention how embarrassing it is for your young teen son.  In time (pretty soon) you’ll likely need to address this with him.

Have you attempted to discuss this with her?

I’m wondering, what type of communication you and your W had regarding intimacy and sex over the years.  Were the two of you open with one another?  How do you feel things would go if you were to open any type of communication with her?

Do you and your wife engage in kissing, cuddling, handholding, any other type of intimacy?

I hope I’m not being too pushy, O, but you’ve got to take care of yourself - through nutrition, rest and exercise.  I know you know these things.  Are you doing the right things for yourself?  Enough?  If you take a truly honest look at yourself, do you wait for “permission” to take care of yourself?  I believe it would be very beneficial for you to do anything and everything to boost your wellness and self esteem.

Finally, here’s my nitty gritty.  Again… my “new man” is 67 and we’ve been together for nearly 6 months.  We reconnected after not seeing one another since we were teenagers.  We started through intense letter-writing, just like we did in 1974.  He went through treatment for testicular cancer 12 years ago and before we got together, he had not been with another woman in about 20 years.  His confidence was very low in the “performance” area… I loathe that word… “performance”.

At any rate, our communication was key.  We are long distance currently but have spent multiple weeks together so far.  He has ED and I hadn’t experienced that before, but so what… we talked and played and laughed and kissed and played.  He went to the doctors and got Cialis.  The first visit it didn’t work so well.  He hadn’t taken it before arriving here.  It needs to build up in the system at the lower dose he was taking.  The next visit, BOOM.  I can look at him with a raised eyebrow.  But again, communication is THE THING.  That and humor.

I also believe that if a couple has not engaged in intimacy  in a while you may need to build back toward that… maybe through sensate touching exercises.  I recently read a beautiful article on that.  I’ll try to find that for you.

Lastly… divorce threats are, in my opinion, intimacy killers.  Somehow someway, she’s got to stop with those words and those threats.  No pill, no magic lighting, no wine, no massage oil, no nothing will erase the poison of those words.

I’m sorry for the length of this, O.  I truly do hope you’re able to clear your mind and ask yourself the good questions.  And then sit down with your wife and find out what her true wishes are for your marriage and this relationship.  Nothing changes until something changes.

With her current words and behavior, she is hurting you, herself and your young son.  He WILL remember the words she is saying.  And very likely he may not remember those words fondly… he will grow to be a man.

Just some thoughts.  Please do not give up on yourself.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[jaded7]

First off, let me say what a thoughtful and healthy perspective Gems. Very sensitive and kind response to the person.

As a man who was in one these relationships, and who experienced something similar to you, let me chip in what I can.

I agree with absolutely everything Gems says. Communication is key, for sure. And like her I believe in 'couples thinking'. You two are, or
should be, operating as a unit, a team. You are not, in spite of your trying. And intimacy, like Gems says, is much more than just
sex. And intimacy is destroyed by emotional abuse (verbal abuse, gaslighting, refusing to engage, blaming, etc.)

I was very hurt by the words my ex used against me, by her attitude toward me, the put downs and yelling. It destroyed what is referred to
as 'safety' in the relationship, emotional safety. I would always be on high alert for an explosion or put down, or anger or yelling. One cannot feel
intimacy in a relationship filled with that.

The 'this is your problem, solve it' is the very opposite of a relational response to the issue. It's unkind, and blaming, and is a way for her to
distance herself from the problem, to avoid feeling guilt and shame for her behavior in your relationship.

There is no wonder you feel nervous, afraid in your physical relationship with her. I felt the same in mine. She became very demanding, critical, and objectifying of me during sex to the point I became afraid of it.

 I'm an extremely healthy guy, super fit, and with a normal sex drive.....and for the first time in my life I experienced ED issues with her. I even secretly ordered viagra- secretly, because I knew she would get ANGRY at me if she knew. How messed up is that? Sound familiar? I even worried she would discover I took it because it can make your cheeks rosy and cause sinus congestion. So ...now I was worried about her blowing up at me during sex and getting angry and critical of my 'performance' (I'm with you Gems, I hate the word, even that conception of sexual intimacy) AND I was worried about her discovering I used the medication. What a mess.

The insight I had later is that she is afraid to vulnerable. Sex and intimacy require vulnerability. They cannot exist without it. Therefore, she couldn't have a connecting sexual relationship with me because she couldn't be vulnerable. And she, if she discovered I was using viagra, would then take that
as some kind of criticism or judgement, because that's what people with bpd do. I remember, before I figured this out, I told a friend that I felt
like a sex toy in our relationship.....disembodied, there to serve her, no emotional connection.

What should be a connecting and intimacy-building part of the relationship became a stress-inducing field of landmines. It's awful to be criticized during the sex act and snapped at.

"I would really like to somehow manage to get closer to her, in both physical and emotional way, but I am not sure how to do it, how to create that "space" in my head where I am not touched and hurt by what she says and does in episodes, and it lingers for months. The worst thing for me is that my son constantly sees me walking on eggshells, and also listens about me not being able to "get it up" quite often, mostly said as a half-joke, but he is old enough to understand whats going on"

This is cruel and abusive. Mocking you in front of your son? Plus, it's hugely innappropriate.

I think you are just showing all the signs of being in an emotionally and psychologically abusive relationship. Of course her words are
hurtful, of course they make you feel not close to her. And of course, in a relationship with a personality disordered person they will not
acknowledge that. It's this part that's hard to take on board. Of course you're having difficulty in releasing all this stress and worry in order
to be with her physically.

Communication. But beware, trying to communicate this will be challenge, because as I mentioned above she may well take it as
criticism or judgement, no matter how well you package it. This, then, will be another indicator.....if that happens, I hope it doesn't.

[healthfreedom4s]

Hello,

I totally get you. I am also in relationship with uBPDW for almost 2 decades.
Gems summarized all aspects very nicely.

For me, I can’t turn off the abuse quickly. And the anxiety of what will happen next. I sometimes imagine I am a with a model or actress to finish the job. I keep our connection so bodily focused.
Here are couple of things you can try:
- You can just let her talk, you can listen. Don’t take any bait, just listen. This may get her in the mood.
- Focus on her pleasure first. Help her reach orgasm. It doesn’t need penetration to achieve that.
- In fact, once she has gotten her heat rate up and climaxes, she may want to just relax. Penetration is optional for female orgasm.
As guys, we attach too much importance to penetration.
I know it is not easy. Just wanted to share some ideas.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Olafinski,

I am so sorry you are going through this. I can identify all too well with what you are going through. My wife has done the same thing to me. My ED has been related to hormonal issues caused by a non-cancerous pituitary brain tumor and I am under the care of a top-notch endocrinologist. I have gotten all of my hormones sorted out and my levels are optimal. I even monitor nocturnal erections to ensure that my hormones are balanced. They are and everything should be working, but oftentimes, it's not. Even with Cialis, I have had trouble maintaining an erection during intimacy with my wife. So I checked with my doctor and my therapist.

Both of them agreed that my current ED problem is psychogenic rather than physiological. Because my wife has frequently criticized me during and/or after sex, I have a really strong trauma response to her initiating sexual activity. Add to this the years of emotional, mental, and physical abuse that I have suffered from my wife and the complete lack of empathy or any type of physical intimacy outside of sex (no hugs, hand holding, kissing, cuddling, etc.) it's no wonder that I am having troubles "performing" (I also hate that word.) I agree with all that has been said by other posters. I know that no pill or physical treatment will solve "my" problem (it's really just a physical manifestation of our overall relationship problem.) The real solution is for my wife to get treatment for her BPD and start treating me like a human being with feelings rather than a servant or sex object to perform "my function" to her satisfaction.

You, like me, deserve to be treated with affection, warmth, decency, and love. Until the true intimacy issues (intimacy in its true meaning of trust, safety, and affection) you can't be "intimate" in the bedroom. That's what's becoming apparent to me at least. My body cannot ignore the fact that I find my wife scary and threatening. You have to be relaxed and excited to get and maintain an erection. Fight or flight, adrenaline dumps, and a system full of stress-related cortisol is the perfect recipe for those conditions not existing.

Like your wife, my wife has made crude half-jokes about my ED in front of our son. Unlike your situation, he is only 3 and doesn't understand yet. The last time she said something about it in front of him, I told her that it was mean-spirited and that I wasn't going to stand around and be talked to like that. I removed myself from the situation and went upstairs to lie down in the bedroom. When she came upstairs some minutes later to check on me, I told her "I am waiting for you to apologize for what you said to me in front of our son." To which she replied "well, it's true though" (this is an old excuse for her to say something mean - whether it is true or just true to her.) I replied, "there are many mean things I could say about you that are true, but I choose not to because I am not a mean person."

She could have let it go at that, but she kept pushing and saying things about how she deserved to take a lover or find a "real man." I'm not proud about this, but I snapped. I said, "well, you're fat. I'm sorry but it's true. Maybe I would be more attracted to you if you were thin and pretty like you used to be." She turned on her heel and stalked out of the room. So, I decided to take our son to visit my folks about a half hour away. We stayed for the afternoon and by the time we returned home, my wife acted like nothing had happened. I am not recommending giving your wife a taste of her own medicine, but in my case, it seems to have worked. Perhaps my wife has finally learned that just because something is "true" does not make it ok to use as a weapon, and that if it were ok for everyone to act like that she would end up being extremely hurt by the things that people say to her and about her.

I have since apologized (just once, but very sincerely. I am done forever with repeat apologies.) I told her that I said what I did because I was hurt by her words and was lashing out with my own. I should not have done that, and I was deeply sorry and ashamed of what I had said. I guess what I am saying is that A) work on intimate aspects of the relationship outside of the bedroom first, and B) address her hurtful words in a proactive way before you lose your temper and snap like I did. You can only kick a dog so many times before it bites back. Best of luck and you will be in my thoughts and prayers.

HurtAndTired

[olafinski]

First of all, big excuse to everyone in thread for being so late in this reply. But life just swoooshed around me since august, lost of work and private challenges, and I just didn't have any time for myself.
Thank you all for your answers, they are really inspiring and helpful! Love you all.
To set some things straight and answer some of the questions, our communication about sex is virtually non-existant because my wife is the kind of person that doesn't "believe" in this approach, not just to sex... to anything. She is from a "doctor's family", her father being an eminent breast cancer specialist, and old-school doctors generally, in my experience, don't believe in psychotherapy and in conversation-as-a-cure in general. So she got that from her father.
Also, some problems that are lying underneath emerged last 5-6 months. What I have discovered, and it took me a long, long time because of her uBPD, which became my focus since I discovered it some 10 years ago, is that sexually we are not a match.
She is sexually dominant and likes it to be as she likes it to be. Not that she doesn't care about partners pleasure, it's both much better and much worse! She actually thinks that ANY OTHER WAY IS WRONG. She thinks that she is "normal" (mostly true), so if I want anything different than what she wants in sex, IT MUST BE WRONG. And she won't do it, why would she? She is a normal woman. I am strange, I am different, I am special (mostly true).
The reason I didn't react to it before is because I also didn't realise to the full extent how dominant I am in bed, or to be more precise, how dominant I like to be, and how important that is for my performance.
Since this is an intimate space ment for us to be honest and share our experiences, I will share, trying to be as "politically correct" as possible, what I have experienced.
If you are reading posts here expecting only and strictly BPD talk, perhaps you should just skip the rest because it is about me and my experiences. I think it belongs here and is relevant, because this stream of events was triggered by my experience as a uBPD wife partner for 17 years.

So.
Somewhere in May I realised that I need to understand my ED problem. I decided to go to full blood vessel scan first to establish the "real situation down there". But reading about it I learned some new things about this and it made me wonder... the symptoms that were mentioned there for medical kind of ED (physiological) didn't really match mine.
Also, one notion somehow entered my mind. Even if I somehow manage to solve ED, what will really change? She will again be mad at me most of the time, and I will again find it hard to create "that loving feeling" between us. And if I can not create it, it means I somehow must learn to get excited "on my own", to reclaim my once treasured self-assurednes, from my younger days when I was "poison for the ladies" (sounds like a bad joke now . To put it simply - to be able to even try to do it with her again, I first need to try to do it with anyone, to see if I am able.
Also, I started thinking this way: I am now 52, and because of my diabetes (type 1), most probably I have some 10 years, speaking in positive way, of bedroom games, at least the penetrative sort. She is slowly getting better, but I think that what we had sexually will hardly ever be what I really want in bed. I CAN imagine restoring our intimacy, but WHEN I imagine it, it's really not what I would like to experience while I still can experience anything.
Is it worth destroying our marriage? No, for sure not. But is the idea worth pursuing, knowing all the facts of my life? A man in his best years, giving his 200% to family, doing absolutely nothing for myself, constantly on the edge of nervous breakdown. I really need a vent! I need to find a safe place where I can feel in control and in center of someone's attention, even if for a short while.
So, probably you've already guessed, I started exploring paid sex options locally, replacing my before-bed-Netflix with browsing "those" pages, trying to imagine how it would be etc. And in June, when there was an opening, a window... I did it. Then later in last 6 months 8 more times. I learned more about my self sexually then in all of my life before, and I have been really active. I learned that I always know exactly what I want, but that I am simply not the guy that is OK with asking that directly from a woman. So only times that I really "got what I need", before paying for sex, was when I was with partners that by accident had the same desires. Off course, I managed to somehow "signal" it, but mostly I didn't suceed in sex being how I wanted it to be. I will not share here openly what it is, because that part is not relevant, lets just say that it was something that is a taboo for some women and in some cultures, but in others it's quite common and normal. My wife off course, being "a nice normal girl", would never even want to talk about it, because it was "hideous and awful, disgusting".

The interesting thing I learned in this period is that I can only perform good (off course, always with a viagra, without it there is no chance) when:
1) I am in control, so things happen in the way I want them to happen. When this stops, I lose it and my ED kicks in.
2) I am visually aroused, which can be a result of many different things, from pure physical beauty, to just a certain type of facial expression of a woman. I have a special type of female body shape that makes me horny, and it affects my performance to such an extent that it's almost comical. And it has been like that forever, even when I was a teenager. A woman can be totally beautiful, but if her body doesn't look in a certain way (very feminine figure, narrow waist with wide round and wide hips, behind protruding a bit so from profile you se a bump to the behind...) - no go. I know, I know, it makes me really primitive, and it's a total contrast to how I am otherwise, open, flexible, soothing... No. In bed, to get my friend down there to perform, I need some things to be in a certain way, otherwise it's just not working as it should and could.
3) There is no way I can perform well with a woman that isn't really enthusiastic about bed games, open minded, without holding back, giving it all, feeling relaxed with me and trusting me, putting her trust in me. Some sex workers really do it just for the money, and it was always totally wrong and awful with them. But some of them really like it and they have chosen this life because that is the field where they naturally express. It turns out that this kind of female mentality / personality turns me on extremely. With such women I would perform like I had no problem (probably without viagra it wouldn't be like that off course). Also, it would give me enourmous pleasure, the sort I never had before. Perhaps even too big? Yes, it IS dangerous because it creates a big dopamine kick and is highly addictive.

So currently I am really puzzled on where to go next. I've realised I have a thing for promiscuous women, sluts, whatever is the right term that is not pejorative or degrading, and it's certainly not in my eyes. The feeling that I get with such women is what I really like in bed. So perhaps it's really better to just forget it all? Not sure to be honest.

I know that I am currently in a dark place, and everyday I have this conversation with myself: "You must stop with all of that and simply forget about your sex life cause man you have a problem". And I think THAT is where I am going to.

But then another voice appears to say: "What you experience is a normal, healthy sex drive. Your desire to be intimate with attractive and willing women is totally normal and a sure man thing. The real problem is not that you are want it and doing it, but what you are going to do with the relationship with your wife. Does what you do make restoring intimacy with your wife more of less probable? Did you get your mojo?". And the answer is that I did. But what is happening is that she is feeling it and it seems that this is, even without words, triggering again her BPD which was lately getting better and better.
So it's a really really tough choice and difficult times ahead for me.

Thanks so much for reading if you came this far, I know what I share is perhaps too much, but I just needed to get it off my chest.

[HurtAndTired]

Hey olafinski,

Thank you for sharing that. It must have been both incredibly difficult to do so, but also very cathartic. I am glad that you have discovered that it is not all "just you" and that you are not only capable of having penetrative sex but that you enthusiastically still enjoy doing so. I would also, as a side note, recommend getting your testosterone and estradiol levels checked. For men our age, our hormones are often out of balance, and getting those straightened out can help significantly (it did for me). That's the good news. The bad news is that this seems like it is further and further out of reach for you and your wife, given your relative sexual preferences, her callous disregard for your feelings, and her verbally and emotionally abusing you about your sexual ability in front of your teenage son.

Since we are on the "bettering board" let me ask you directly, do you still want to better things with your wife? Do you think it is possible, given your new insights? I know that you have your son who is 13 to think about. I am choosing to stay with my wife and to make things "as good as possible" until my S3 is old enough to deny any kind of crazy things she might say about me (6 or 7 years old). You are past that point. Do you want to stay indefinitely? Until your son is 18? Do you think that you could make the marriage workable in the long term? By your own reckoning, you feel that you have "10 good years" left (although I think with proper medical treatment and not being psychologically abused you probably have a good deal longer than that) sexually. Is your goal to try to find compatibility with your wife during that window of time?

I also wanted to tell you that there is no shame in opening a parallel thread on the "conflicted board." I have one there myself but have not posted for quite some time, given that I have made the decision to stay for my son...for now.

HurtAndTired

[olafinski]

Hi, I surely want to stay. I have chosen this marriage and I love my wife deeply, with all her problems.
The only issue is whether I will be able to sustain it.