TREATMENT: EMDR Therapy

[BPDFamily.com]

Quack Watch has had EMDR on their radar of less then scientific approaches to he world for a while... .

www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/emdr.html

Stephen Barrett, MD, writer/ringleader at Quackwatch, was trained in psychiatry but was unable to attain board certification and therefore could not build a viable practice. He frequently attacks nutritional issues but is not trained in nutritional science. He assaults various forms of therapeutic bodywork in which he has received no training. He meets the definition of someone who is attempting to pass himself off as something he is not. I think that could be one of the many definitions of the word "Quack".

What Dr. Barrett does not do is question the effects or safety of prescription drugs and allopathic medicine. Being trained in psychiatry might make him qualified to comment on EMDR but I have found enough falsehood and bias in his "reports" to doubt anything he has to say. 

I for one do not care if it is a "scientific approach" or not. I am intelligent enough to do my own research and give it a try if I feel it is safe for me to do so. So I did and I am just fine, thank you very much.

Sorry for the diversion. I am going to go do my yoga now. I'm gonna guess the quack has something to say about that as well... .

[hiddenlizard]

Quack Watch has had EMDR on their radar of less then scientific approaches to he world for a while... .

www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/emdr.html

Stephen Barrett, MD, writer/ringleader at Quackwatch, was trained in psychiatry but was unable to attain board certification and therefore could not build a viable practice. He frequently attacks nutritional issues but is not trained in nutritional science. He assaults various forms of therapeutic bodywork in which he has received no training. He meets the definition of someone who is attempting to pass himself off as something he is not. I think that could be one of the many definitions of the word "Quack".

What Dr. Barrett does not do is question the effects or safety of prescription drugs and allopathic medicine. Being trained in psychiatry might make him qualified to comment on EMDR but I have found enough falsehood and bias in his "reports" to doubt anything he has to say. 

I for one do not care if it is a "scientific approach" or not. I am intelligent enough to do my own research and give it a try if I feel it is safe for me to do so. So I did and I am just fine, thank you very much.

Sorry for the diversion. I am going to go do my yoga now. I'm gonna guess the quack has something to say about that as well... .

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[CVA]

It has been some time since all the trauma of this R/S .  At times i have felt stuck in my grieving process.

Its like the paid is always below the surface... Not totally understading why, or where or how its still lingering...   Other than the fact that I will have to find peace and closure within myself and highly not likely to talk,with her to make peace with the past or get my closure...

Not talking with her not for my closure, or get things off my chest. or hell just do cure "the moments when i feel inner rage myself" by reading this forum , the results would be likely to backfire in my face or me just feleing worse... .Like there is no winning withthese people.

Also just a gut feeeling that I will not be respected or herd. and probably hung up on! 

So, i hear of this EMDR, Therapy?   I wanted t try it... its really wierd because i herd of my XUBPW looking into it... .so i was investigating and was like wow,,  this could be good for me.


any thoughts?   

[joop]

Just read about that on google... .umm sounds very interesting, i think i might mention it to my T on thursday... .nice find CVA

[Mystic]

I had a number of sessions for PTSD after some violent incidents with my exH. 

I found it helpful.  Kind of dumbed down the intensity of past memories.

I don't think it's necessarily curative, but it's basically like turning down the volume. 

Helpful, yes. 

[2idealistic]

CVA:

I had two sessions, yes.  The irony about it is that this particular T is one that I identified on behalf of my ex when she revealed to me (as excuse/rationalization for her multiple cyber/phone affairs) that her brother had sexually and physically abused her when she was a young girl.  After my ex cancelled the appointment, began painting me black for getting too close to her real identity (or lack thereof), I went to the T myself.  This very gifted T is the one who helped me to understand that my ex is likely BPD.

In the meantime, my T, in helping me through the shock of betrayal, grief, etc., helped me to focus on me, and as a result, she suggested a session of EMDR.  What resulted were exploration of traumatic events I went through as a young child, almost all of which either had to do with my witnessing or empathizing for women in crisis or pain, and in one case, my unresolved survivor guilt for the loss by death in a car accident (I was also in the car) of my "little girlfriend" when I was about six years old.

EMDR was a helpful tool in allowing me to understand my attachment to a BPD and my underlying need to be a heroic rescuer, one obviously capable of ignoring all of the warning signs and  associated with a love relationship with a BPD.

[yoshitx]

Quack Watch has had EMDR on their radar of less then scientific approaches to he world for a while... .

www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/emdr.html

Stephen Barrett, MD, writer/ringleader at Quackwatch, was trained in psychiatry but was unable to attain board certification and therefore could not build a viable practice. He frequently attacks nutritional issues but is not trained in nutritional science. He assaults various forms of therapeutic bodywork in which he has received no training. He meets the definition of someone who is attempting to pass himself off as something he is not. I think that could be one of the many definitions of the word "Quack".

The Author wasn't Bartlett. 

[MoonWolf]

I have PTSD and have undergone EMDR for the last year. It works. I have been doing a lot of reading about EMDR because honestly I wasn't sure if it would work on me.

My T explained it like this to me. People with PTSD have active memories that feel *real* - Normally a memory after an even goes into an inactive *folder* if you will. EMDR helps to put an active memory into the inactive *folder* (Paraphrasing) So far so good.

Some memories are very hard to deal with and can take several attempts to put them in their place, and memories that have been active for a long time are sometimes hard to EMDR.  I remember there were a couple of rough sessions where after the session I felt more anxiety but over the next few days the *memory* seemed to be pulled out of active and placed into inactive. My T said that it was okay if that happened.

M T said that EMDR should only be done when there is a comprehensive history done and that could take multiple sessions, she also states that there needs to be a trust built between T and patient.

[nocrazy]

Hi

I just want to share this

I started EMDR therapy years ago to heal some past stuff: a sexual assault, and childhood stuff. At that time I was focusing on those events, and it was VERY helpful. Then I took years off from therapy and among other things got involved in the long term unhealthy relationship that led me here.

I recently started to do the therapy again, and this time I am focusing on the original wounds that led me to be the codependent person I have been, and a person with a radar for abusive, unavailable relationships, etc.

It is a very easy therapy to do, and my experience is that the more you go in prepared the better the results. I have spent the last several months clarifying and writing down and poring over journals and self reflections to get to some "core tapes" or statements that repeat in my head. These are the statements that are my core wound acting out.

The EmDR therapist has you say the statements, think about the event, or try to connect with a trauma or feeling or thought form. Then they do the therapy. WHile you are being guided with the eye movement, the issue kind of unravels and you speak out lousd what you feel, see or remember.

I then write it all out, and formulate counter statements or beliefs to the detrimental ones.

It has been so helpful for me. WHat we have been uncovering is not what I really CONSCIOUSLY thought I was playing out.

So, I am really getting alot of feedback confirming that EMDR is working on the more unconscious tapes at play that are very difficult to undo with conventional therapy or just realizations of them.

Conventional therapy is good, but I am findiing that this unconscious tapping into and defusing is so much what I need to move on and out of MY PART in my unhealthy relationships.

[Belka]

I'd love to look into EMDR, but I kind of live in the country. If I went, I'd need to drive at least 50 miles away. How many sessions does a person usually go?

[nocrazy]

I go weekly, usually do the EMDR work one week then examining and processing what Ive learned the next.

Lat time I did it for a few months, covering a lot of stuff.

I think it just depends on what you want to clear out.

[forgottenarm]

I've been doing it too---just started three months ago---and it's incredibly potent.  Life-changing

[DivorcedNon]

My T specializes in EMDR. He never applied it on me. He says that I respond well to talk therapy although he is open to try it on me at some point. He uses it more for PTSD.

He told me about one client that was involved in a horrific accident where a family member next to her was killed by another large vehicle smashing at their car from the opposite direction runnng over the family member.  The client was unable to drive after that due to PTSD. After that one and only session of EMDR the client never came back. However, the letter from the client came after few months  in which she said that the session was "weird" but after that one session she was able to drive again and pass the place where the accident happened without being triggered!

My T said that it is hard to predict how someone will react to EMDR and sometimes reaction to EMDR is so amazing. He uses hypnosis too but he did not use it on me although I am curious about it as well.

My first wife is a T and she too uses EMDR and hypnosis successfuly for different issues as an addition to talk therapy.

Here is a rather technical yet interesting paper (link to a PDF file is at the bottom) about integrated use of talk therapy, EMDR and hypnosis:

www.hypnosisandsuggestion.org/hypnosis-and-emdr.html

Does it work for BPD? You would think it could be helpful.

[forgottenarm]

My T suggested it because she thought PTSD from my childhood made me more susceptible to my xBPDbf and also made detaching more difficult.  She said it's used a lot with veterans or people who experience single traumatic events, but it's also useful for chronic trauma, like you might experience in a chaotic family growing up, or even with a pwBPD.

[nocrazy]

I dont know why it is not used for BPD, although, I imagine hell would freeze over before my exH BPD/N would even be able to admit to himself the traumas, behaviors, etc, that are necessary to be aware of.

I know it is addressing single events, and long term chronic behavior in my FOO. But, I did have to do the prep work, which my T says a lot of her clients do not do, and they end up having to work longer.

Identifying the core tapes that play in your mind is fantastic to do regardless... An example: just one of mine has to do with "appearing pretty at all costs" This was something I was completely unaware of. We go into the work, and that statement unravels into the events that actually shaped the thoughts into being: Sexual abuse, being painted black by my mother if I spoke up about what was wrong.

"Appearing pretty at all cost" is a horrifying anxiety generating feeling wound. It was one of the main things that kept me where I was in my awful marriage for 10 years. I was desperate not to relive the trauma that occurred when I was deemed to be exhibiting "unpretty" behavior or lets say the opposite, pretty behavior would be ;WALKING ON EGGSHELLS.

So much. I cannot even say.

I have used several tools for this unravelling down to the core wound tapes.

One thing is radical forgiveness sheets. by colin tipping. They are free online, but an incredible tool. you can just google radical forgiveness. they have one for forgiving others, and one for SELF forgiveness. Either way, it really boils it down, (However cheezy it may be) in a concise way to a few statements.

[GreenMango]

Hope this helps

EMDR is touted as a breakthrough treatment for trauma/PTSD.  EMDR integrates elements of many several psychotherapies in structured protocols that are designed to maximize treatment effects. These include psychodynamic, cognitive behavioral, interpersonal, experiential, and body-centered therapies. During EMDR the patient attends to past and present experiences in brief sequential doses while simultaneously focusing on an external stimulus. Then the client is instructed to let new material become the focus of the next set of dual attention. This sequence of dual attention and personal association is repeated many times in the session.  

A description of the method is located below.  

EMDR also has some detractors within the psychological community who argue it is nothing more than classic cognitive/behavioral techniques slickly repackaged and sold as a quick fix.  Evaluating EMDR - Shawn P. Cahill, Ph.D.

Interesting discussion!

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EMDR is an information processing therapy and uses an eight phase approach.  

First Phase The first phase is a history taking session during which the therapist develops a treatment plan. Patient and therapist identify possible targets for EMDR processing. These include recent distressing events, current situations that elicit emotional disturbance, related historical incidents, and the development of specific skills and behaviors that will be needed by the client in future situations.

Second Phase During the second phase of treatment, the therapist ensures that the patient has adequate methods of handling emotional distress and good coping skills, and that the client is in a relatively stable state. If further stabilization is required, or if additional skills are needed, therapy focuses on providing these.

Phase 3-6 In phase three through six, a target is identified and processed using EMDR procedures. These involve the patient identifying the most vivid visual image related to the memory (if available), a negative belief about self, related emotions and body sensations. The patient also identifies a preferred positive belief. The validity of the positive belief is rated, as is the intensity of the negative emotions.

The patient is then instructed to focus on the image, negative thought, and body sensations while simultaneously moving his/her eyes back and forth following the therapist's fingers as they move across his/her field of vision for 20-30 seconds or more (Athough eye movements are the most commonly used external stimulus, therapists often use auditory tones, tapping, or other types of tactile stimulation). The patient is instructed to just notice whatever happens. After this, the clinician instructs the client to let his/her mind go blank and to notice whatever thought, feeling, image, memory, or sensation comes to mind.

Depending upon the client's report the clinician will facilitate the next focus of attention. In most cases a patient-directed association process is encouraged. This is repeated numerous times throughout the session. I

If there are negative sensations, these are processed as above. If there are positive sensations, they are further enhanced.

Seventh Phase In phase seven, closure, the therapist asks the patient to keep a journal during the week to document any related material that may arise and reminds the client of the self-calming activities that were mastered in phase two.

Eighth Phase The next session begins with phase eight, re-evaluation of the previous work, and of progress since the previous session.

Result After EMDR processing, clients generally report that the emotional distress related to the memory has been eliminated, or greatly decreased, and that they have gained important cognitive insights. Importantly, these emotional and cognitive changes usually result in spontaneous behavioral and personal change, which are further enhanced with standard EMDR procedures.

www.emdr.com/briefdes.htm

[numenal]

Hi,

I've been doing EMDR for PTSD for about a year. Since people with PTSD have traumatic memories only partially processed, they are not "filed" as past, no-longer-harmful memories. EMDR accesses those memories (the bilateral stimulation allows for that), and then through the process led by the T, the person with PTSD is able to reprocess the memory in a way that takes the "trauma charge" out of it.

Depending on the severity of the trauma(s), the process may have to be repeated many times. I have found it very helpful.

[One Day at a Time]

Thank you GreenMango and numenal, very helpful.

I've discussed with my T and we both see EMDR as being potentially very helpful for me in the future. I'm in the thick of a breakthrough crisis and so the focus for now is on learning to ground myself as my emotions are rather overwhelming at this point. 

With respect to my childhood bullying, I have a handful of visual memories disconnected from much emotion. And where the abuse by uBPDm is the concerned, it seems that I have nothing but huge grief and abandonment panic, but all memories (other than very vague ones), are blanked.

So, I am very interested to experience EMDR and see how all this (hopefully) comes together. One day... .

[numenal]

Once you do a few sessions, you might find deeper memories accessed. EMDR can go layer by layer, providing you trust your T and relax into it.

[Parrot Pill]

I did EMDR a couple of years ago after a car accident triggered PTSD from earlier trauma. Because my traumatic events were

Acute rather than chronic my therapy was quite focused and took only a few sessions. I was amazed by how effective it was for me, tho my regular therapist (not my EMDR t) cautioned me that it doesn't work for everyone. However, for those it does work for it can be amazing. Good luck!

[Cheshire]

I'm going to start EMDR therapy this month. Eye Movement Desensitization Response is a treatment for PTSD. Thoughts?

[Want2know]

Yes, I have.  I didn't even know my therapist was doing it, but he did ask me before starting if I was willing to try something different.  It was pretty intense, and definitely had a lasting impact, one that I can draw upon today.

It started with him having me close my eyes and think of being in a dark movie theater, by myself, looking up at a blank white screen.  He then asked me to think about the situation that I was having issues with, and walk through it with him.  He told me to open my eyes and started moving his fingers slowly back and forth in front of my eyes, side to side, continuing to have me walk through the situation.  He would bring me back to the blank movie screen every so often, and then intensified his finger movement, having me think about the trauma, and finally stopped, had me think of the movie screen one more time, and then sat in silence.  I cried.

Now, if I think of sitting in a dark theater, looking at that movie screen, it brings a feeling of calm over me.  Very interesting.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[Cheshire]

Thanks, want2know! I've been trying to break through a blocked memory for some time now, and my T thinks this will help. The saNPDlay is helpful, but not with this particular chunk. It feels like my memory time-codes are scrambled surrounding the event.  Nervous but hopeful. Will write after.

[Want2know]

Definitely let us know how it goes.   

Be prepared for some feelings that you may not have tapped into yet - but that is a good thing.  Just go with it, and don't think too much about the process.  Focus on his fingers and your thoughts and emotions.  Let it flow. 

[empowered_dad]

I've been seeing an EMDR therapist since 2006 through my ex-BPDw's ups and downs. The therapy really helped me work through 'old stuff' that I hadn't been addressing.  This really helped me become a stronger person, and ultimately I had the power to divorce my ex in 2010.

I don't know where I would be today without EMDR.  My sessions were often very powerful... .life changing experience. 

Give it a try!

[Cheshire]

Had my 1st EMDR session this week. I was impressed with the effects I noticed during and after. We picked a target memory and did about 5 iterations of the eye movement and recall. I was able to retrieve more detail from the fog and it was strangely not painful. A day or two later, I tuned out during a long conversation and my mind drifted to the memory. I calmly recalled even more previously blocked details and a glimmer of insight into what it meant. Pretty cool.

[Cloudy Days]

My husband has been going to his Therapist for around 7 months now and she is wanting him to start doing EMDR for half of his sessions with her for PTSD. I know sort of what it is but I was just wondering if anyone had expeirience with their SO getting this type of Therapy along with DBT.

It seems like a silly therpy with the tapping but I am hopeful for anything to help him. I find that he seems to get sort of raw after his sessions because he's opening up old wounds. It's not uncommon for him to come home after therapy and be in a bad mood. Not really something I look forward to. Just wondering if this Therapy will have the same effect. Has anyone delt with something like this before?

[Patti Jane Levin PsyD]

It's true, sometimes in any kind of psychotherapy people feel worse before they feel better. But EMDR is really the most gentle way I've ever known to treat trauma. I hope his therapist has done a lot of preparation work!

I'm a therapist who uses EMDR as my primary treatment psychotherapy and I've also personally had EMDR therapy for anxiety, panic, grief, and “small t” trauma. As a client, EMDR worked extremely well and also really fast. As an EMDR therapist, and in my role as a facilitator who trains other therapists in EMDR (certified by the EMDR International Assoc. and trained by the EMDR Inst, both of which I strongly recommend in an EMDR therapist) I have used EMDR successfully with panic disorders, trauma and PTSD, anxiety, depression, grief, body image, phobias, distressing memories, bad dreams and more... .  

It's really crucial that the therapist spends enough time in one of the initial phases (Phase 2) in EMDR that involves preparing for memory processing or desensitization (memory processing or desensitization - phases 3-6 - is often referred to as "EMDR" which is actually an 8-phase psychotherapy). In this phase resources are "front-loaded" so that he has "floor" or "container" to help with processing the really hard stuff. In Phase 2 one learns a lot of great coping strategies and self-soothing techniques which can be used during EMDR processing or anytime one feels the need.

Grounding exercises are indispensable in everyday life, and really essential in stressful times. Anyone can use some of the techniques in Dr. Shapiro's new book "Getting Past Your Past: Take Control of Your Life with Self-Help Techniques from EMDR." Dr. Shapiro is the founder/creator of EMDR but all the proceeds from the book go to two charities: the EMDR Humanitarian Assistance Program and the EMDR Research Foundation). Anyway, the book is terrific. It's an easy read, helps you understand what's "pushing" your feelings and behavior, helps you connect the dots from past experiences to current life. Also teaches readers lots of helpful techniques that can be used immediately and that are also used during EMDR therapy to calm disturbing thoughts and feelings. This book would be helpful for you, for yourself and to help your husband through this difficult but incredibly important time.

As I’ve mentioned about Phase 2, during EMDR therapy one learns how to access a “Safe or Calm Place” which can be used at ANY TIME during EMDR processing (or on one's own) if it feels scary, or too emotional, too intense. One of the key assets of EMDR is that  the client is in control NOW, even though not during past events. Your husband NEVER need re-live an experience or go into great detail, ever! He NEVER needs to go through the entire memory. HE can decide to keep the lights (or the alternating sounds and/or tactile pulsars, or the waving hand) going, or stop them, whichever helps titrate – measure and adjust the balance or “dose“ of the processing. During EMDR processing there are regular “breaks” and one can control when and how many but the therapist should be stopping the bilateral stimulation every 25-50 passes of the lights to ask him to take a deep breath and ask him to say just a bit of what he's noticing. (The stimulation should not be kept on continuously, because there are specific procedures that need to be followed to process the memory). The breaks help keep a “foot in the present” while processing the past. Again, and I can’t say this enough, The CLIENT is IN CHARGE and has the power to make the process tolerable. And the therapist should be experienced in the EMDR techniques that help make it the gentlest and safest way to neutralize bad life experiences and build resources.

Pacing and dosing are critically important. So if you think his therapy is too intense  (and of course, if he agrees!) then it might be time to ask his therapist to go back over all the resources that should be used both IN session and BETWEEN sessions. The therapist should be using a variety of techniques to make painful processing less painful, like suggesting he turns the scene in his mind to black and white, lower the volume, or, erect a bullet-proof glass wall between him and the painful scene, or, imagine the abuser(s) speaking in a Donald Duck voice... .  and so forth. There are a lot of these kinds of "interventions" that ease the processing. They are called "cognitive interweaves" that the therapist can use, and that also can help bring one's adult self's perspective into the work (or even an imaginary Adult Perspective). Such interweaves are based around issues of Safety, Responsibility, and Choice. So therapist questions like "are you safe now?" or "who was responsible? and "do you have more choices now?" are all very helpful in moving the processing along.

In addition to my therapy practice, I roam the web looking for EMDR discussions, try to answer questions about it posted by clients/patients, and respond to the critics out there. It's not a cure-all therapy. However, it really is an extraordinary psychotherapy and its results last. In the hands of a really experienced EMDR therapist, it's the most gentle way of working through disturbing experiences.

[Janewhi]

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of a BPD being treated with EMDR? My ex (not certain if diagnosed or not) is beginning this, and I have done a little reading up on it. It sounds interesting.

[Surnia]

I did some search and I found a study from Germany from 2006. Yes, this sounds interesting.

Results of psychodynamically oriented trauma–focused inpatient treatment for women with complex posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and borderline personality disorder (BPD)

Ulrich Sachsse, Christina Vogel, Falk Leichsenring,

University of Kassel and Psychiatric State Hospital of Lower Saxony Goettingen, Germany

Goettingen and Northeim, Germany

Psychotherapy at the University of Goettingen and Clinic of Tiefenbrunn, Goettingen, Germany


"In a naturalistic outcome study, the authors evaluated the results of a specific psychodynamically oriented trauma–focused inpatient treatment for women with complex posttraumatic stress disorder and concomitant borderline personality disorder, self–mutilating behavior, and depression. At admission, the frequency of self–mutilating behavior and the amount of inpatient treatment (an average of 68 days annually) of the sample was high, characterizing this patient group as “previously therapy resistant.” Treatment outcome was assessed both at the end of treatment and in a 1–year follow–up. In comparison with a treatment–as-usual control group, the treatment program brought about significant and stable improvements both in trauma–specific symptoms (e.g. dissociation, intrusion, avoidance) and in general psychiatric symptoms (e.g., general symptom distress, frequency of self–mutilating behavior, number of hospitalizations). The frequency of inpatient treatments (hospitalizations) decreased dramatically (< 10 days annually; effect size: d = 2.88)."

Read More: www.guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/bumc.2006.70.2.125

[BlackandBlue]

Since my break up with my exBPDgf back in March I've been in therapy. Most of what I have been doing so far has been I guess considered cbt. But today I start working a little bit with emdr (eye moment desensitizing and reprocessing). It's something I've wanted to try for years but haven't been able to find a therapist who offers it until now. As a child I suffered abuse from an older brother and I feel it was a contributing factor to why Ive always had such low confidence and self esteem and ultimately turn me into the codependent I am today. I'm also hoping to use it for the trauma I faced with my. Have any of you guys done any emdr stuff?. If so, what are your expirences?